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Thread: Solar Freaking Roadways!

  1. #1 Solar Freaking Roadways! 
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    If You Need Any Convincing That Solar Roadways Are The Future, This Video Will Help

    How much would this cost, you think?


    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Solar roadways make a lot more sense with the solar/intelligent part OVER the roadway. More sun, protection from the elements, longer lasting and much cheaper.


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    Wait a minute. They're going to use solar panels underneath the snow to melt the snow? How does that work?

    They repeat the usual solar power dreamer stuff about how there's enough solar energy hitting the road to supply enough power for (blah, blah, blah, insert meaningless statistic). Completely useless statistics until you figure out how to store the daytime power for night, and the summer power for winter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Completely useless statistics until you figure out how to store the daytime power for night, and the summer power for winter.
    That is not how electricity supplies work.
    You don't store the power generated by solar panels if they are connected to the grid.
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    Sure, I know how it works. You build and maintain enough generating capacity to power the grid with nuclear or fossil power plants, but then you only run them part of the time, inefficiently, so you pay double for your power.
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    I am now the (fake) CEO of this company. I want stats, I want numbers, I want costs per mile, I wann a know how quickly we can get this thing up and running AND somebody get security to remove harold14370 from the building!
    That is all
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    It sounds like a nightmare to me. I can't see how they will last being run over by the big trucks, they will be damaged over and over again.

    Make a roofing tile like that instead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I am now the (fake) CEO of this company. I want stats, I want numbers, I want costs per mile, I wann a know how quickly we can get this thing up and running AND somebody get security to remove harold14370 from the building!
    That is all
    You have a good idea there about asking for numbers. Yeah, let's see the numbers. It's funny they're asking for contributions without giving any numbers. No, it's not funny, it's a scam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I am now the (fake) CEO of this company. I want stats, I want numbers, I want costs per mile, I wann a know how quickly we can get this thing up and running AND somebody get security to remove harold14370 from the building!
    That is all
    You have a good idea there about asking for numbers. Yeah, let's see the numbers. It's funny they're asking for contributions without giving any numbers. No, it's not funny, it's a scam.
    It's already apparently being funded in select cities by the department of highway. I don't think it's a scam.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    This is from their web page titled "The Numbers", which doesn't actually have any numbers except some aforementioned bogus stats about how much power could be generated.
    The first thing that one has to understand before beginning to look at numbers is this: an apples to apples comparison between asphalt or concrete roads and Solar Roadways is not possible. An asphalt/concrete road is simply a hard surface to drive a vehicle on. A Solar Roadway is a modern modular system with a multitude of uses and features. For an accurate cost comparison between current systems and the Solar Roadways system, you'd have to combine the costs of current roads (including snow removal, line repainting, pothole repair, etc.), power plants (and the coal or nuclear material to run them), and power and data delivery systems (power poles and relay stations) to be comparable with the Solar Roadway system, which provides all three. So the comparison is more like an apple to a fruit basket:
    Translation: You don't want to know what this thing is going to cost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    This is from their web page titled "The Numbers", which doesn't actually have any numbers except some aforementioned bogus stats about how much power could be generated.
    The first thing that one has to understand before beginning to look at numbers is this: an apples to apples comparison between asphalt or concrete roads and Solar Roadways is not possible. An asphalt/concrete road is simply a hard surface to drive a vehicle on. A Solar Roadway is a modern modular system with a multitude of uses and features. For an accurate cost comparison between current systems and the Solar Roadways system, you'd have to combine the costs of current roads (including snow removal, line repainting, pothole repair, etc.), power plants (and the coal or nuclear material to run them), and power and data delivery systems (power poles and relay stations) to be comparable with the Solar Roadway system, which provides all three. So the comparison is more like an apple to a fruit basket:
    Translation: You don't want to know what this thing is going to cost.
    I'm sure you're part of the "Solar Energy sux, just drill baby drill" crowd too. That seems to be the The righties M.O. as well
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    The nice thing about math is, it isn't left wing or right wing. So keep asking for those numbers before you send in your crowd source money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Sure, I know how it works.
    Then why did you talk about "store[ing] the daytime power for night, and the summer power for winter".
    Only someone completely ignorant of the supply industry would say something that stupid.
    That is not a rhetorical question: why did you say something that stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    You build and maintain enough generating capacity to power the grid with nuclear or fossil power plants, but then you only run them part of the time, inefficiently, so you pay double for your power.
    Again, that is not how the electricity supply industry works.

    Maybe you should just stop talking rather than compounding your mistakes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Sure, I know how it works.
    Then why did you talk about "store[ing] the daytime power for night, and the summer power for winter".
    Only someone completely ignorant of the supply industry would say something that stupid.
    That is not a rhetorical question: why did you say something that stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    You build and maintain enough generating capacity to power the grid with nuclear or fossil power plants, but then you only run them part of the time, inefficiently, so you pay double for your power.
    Again, that is not how the electricity supply industry works.

    Maybe you should just stop talking rather than compounding your mistakes.
    Really? Maybe you should learn how it works yourself. If you can't store the renewable power, then you have to have a backup for when the renewables are not available. That means fossil fuels or nuclear, mostly. If you have to have enough generating capacity to power the grid when your renewables are unavailable, then you have to build double generating capacity -renewables plus your reliable source of power. And since you are not running the fossil or nuclear at full capacity, their costs per kilowatt hour goes up. You're saving some fuel, but not construction, operating or maintenance costs. Then when your electric bill goes up, you wonder why. How can my electric bill be going up when we are getting all this "free" renewable power. Damn electric company!
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    I see that you are too embarrassed to try and explain why you talked about "store[ing] the daytime power for night, and the summer power for winter".

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Really? Maybe you should learn how it works yourself. If you can't store the renewable power, then you have to have a backup for when the renewables are not available. That means fossil fuels or nuclear, mostly. If you have to have enough generating capacity to power the grid when your renewables are unavailable, then you have to build double generating capacity -renewables plus your reliable source of power. And since you are not running the fossil or nuclear at full capacity, their costs per kilowatt hour goes up. You're saving some fuel, but not construction, operating or maintenance costs. Then when your electric bill goes up, you wonder why. How can my electric bill be going up when we are getting all this "free" renewable power. Damn electric company!
    As I said, maybe you should just shut up.

    Your breadth of ignorance is quite extensive.
    I doubt that there is any subject about which you don't know fuck all.
    That is quite impressive.
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    Here let me explain it to you. If you can't store the power, then your claims of "enough solar power to provide 3 times the power requirements of the US" or whatever bogus claims they are making are rather pointless, wouldn't you say? It can't supply one time the power requirement unless it's either available all the time or you can store it? Now do you understand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Here let me explain it to you. If you can't store the power, then your claims of "enough solar power to provide 3 times the power requirements of the US" or whatever bogus claims they are making are rather pointless, wouldn't you say?
    My claims? Can you quote me saying that?
    And do you have any evidence that their claims are bogus? Or is that just your default knee-jerk reaction to non-oil based electricity generation?

    And no. Providing "3 times the power requirements of the US" is not pointless.
    I guess that is just one more aspect of power generation which has eluded you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    It can't supply one time the power requirement unless it's either available all the time or you can store it?
    As I said: you have no idea how electricity supplies work.
    Maybe if you looked at the electricity usage curves for each day, then each week and then over the whole year, you would understand why your statements show a lack of knowledge of electricity generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Now do you understand?
    I already understood that you don't know what you are talking about.
    There is no need to provide more evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Here let me explain it to you. If you can't store the power, then your claims of "enough solar power to provide 3 times the power requirements of the US" or whatever bogus claims they are making are rather pointless, wouldn't you say?
    My claims? Can you quote me saying that?
    Not you personally. You meaning anyone, or you meaning the people on the solar roadway web site.
    And do you have any evidence that their claims are bogus? Or is that just your default knee-jerk reaction to non-oil based electricity generation?

    And no. Providing "3 times the power requirements of the US" is not pointless.
    It is bogus if they claim that building the solar roadway will avoid the cost of constructing power plants. And they do make the claim. It is clearly bogus, if you only use some critical thinking to understand the power plants will still be needed.
    I guess that is just one more aspect of power generation which has eluded you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    It can't supply one time the power requirement unless it's either available all the time or you can store it?
    As I said: you have no idea how electricity supplies work.
    Maybe if you looked at the electricity usage curves for each day, then each week and then over the whole year, you would understand why your statements show a lack of knowledge of electricity generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Now do you understand?
    I already understood that you don't know what you are talking about.
    There is no need to provide more evidence.
    All right, your mind is closed. There's no more room for discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Here let me explain it to you. If you can't store the power, then your claims of "enough solar power to provide 3 times the power requirements of the US" or whatever bogus claims they are making are rather pointless, wouldn't you say? It can't supply one time the power requirement unless it's either available all the time or you can store it? Now do you understand?
    Bingo.
    Germany is an excellent example of this, a nation that had mostly coal power for base loading, spent decades building nuclear plants to replace the coal for base loading while also paying out huge subsidize for solar and wind only to recently turn away from nuclear once again and return to coal/gas base loading--hencing nearly triple paying for the same capacity. Without storage, which is the real obstacle to solar/wind or huge infrastructure to shunt power between Africa and Europe, more solar is just paying extra for capacity they already have without solving their base loading problem. To add insult to injury standard PV power is the worst of the renewable in terms of life cycle CO2 emissions--it is likely solar roads will be even more so.

    As a way to light roads and enhance road marking this might be a good idea particularly in stretches of American highways through rural off the grid areas. As a form of renewable power it's probably not a good idea except for perhaps the American SW.

    Vids are cool and all but the numbers will tell the tail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    And do you have any evidence that their claims are bogus? Or is that just your default knee-jerk reaction to non-oil based electricity generation?
    It is bogus if they claim that building the solar roadway will avoid the cost of constructing power plants.
    But that is not what you said.
    You said that their claim of "enough solar power to provide 3 times the power requirements of the US" was bogus.
    Do you have any evidence it is bogus?
    I guess I will continue to ask this question and you will continue to disingenuously dodge the question, as usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    All right, your mind is closed. There's no more room for discussion.
    No.
    I simply know what I am talking about and you don't.

    And going back to your claim that enough "solar power to provide 3 times the power requirements of the US" is pointless.
    Can you really not think of a single financially beneficial use for excess electricity?
    (There is more than one use - but I am setting the bar low as I know you aren't well educated on this matter.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    And do you have any evidence that their claims are bogus? Or is that just your default knee-jerk reaction to non-oil based electricity generation?
    It is bogus if they claim that building the solar roadway will avoid the cost of constructing power plants.
    But that is not what you said.
    You said that their claim of "enough solar power to provide 3 times the power requirements of the US" was bogus.
    Do you have any evidence it is bogus?
    I guess I will continue to ask this question and you will continue to disingenuously dodge the question, as usual.
    Yes. It is obviously bogus to claim or imply that solar power will replace 100% let alone 300%, of conventionally generated power, if it is not available around the clock or year round.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    All right, your mind is closed. There's no more room for discussion.
    No.
    I simply know what I am talking about and you don't.

    And going back to your claim that enough "solar power to provide 3 times the power requirements of the US" is pointless.
    Can you really not think of a single financially beneficial use for excess electricity?
    (There is more than one use - but I am setting the bar low as I know you aren't well educated on this matter.)
    You tell me. Better yet, show me how it is being used. They have a metric crap load of excess power in Germany on some days in the summer. What are they doing with it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    The nice thing about math is, it isn't left wing or right wing. So keep asking for those numbers before you send in your crowd source money.
    I'm not sending any until/if I see it work for real and be in use for a while. then we're looking at under a 100 bucks donation... but by that time i'm sure the big evil government will be funding it. So, it's win win
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    I simply know what I am talking about and you don't.
    Not to take sides on this (even though I've given you a ton of likes in this thread already, Panda) or even change the subject, but why do you know what you're talking about? Do you work for an electric company? are you an electrical engineer?
    I'm the first to admit, I have no idea how this works (Which is why I'm [fake] running this company. The guys at the very top know nothing!) and have definitely been taken in by a commercial, like a little kid that is expecting the action figure advertised to fly around the room on it's own.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    The nice thing about math is, it isn't left wing or right wing. So keep asking for those numbers before you send in your crowd source money.
    I'm not sending any until/if I see it work for real and be in use for a while. then we're looking at under a 100 bucks donation... but by that time i'm sure the big evil government will be funding it. So, it's win win
    Good for you. But as you should know, the big evil government does not always make good, scientifically informed decisions. Sometimes it's based on - surprise - politics, and as long as the voters are taken in by false claims, it will keep on happening. The solar roadway company had a video endorsement by a Republican senator from Idaho. The company is based in Idaho, so I'm sure he feels he has to support it, to keep an adequate flow of federal pork to the state of Idaho. Otherwise the voters of Idaho would hang him up by his thumbs.

    Here's one of the claims from their Numbers web page.
    As best we can tell, it is estimated that approximately half (different agencies provide different estimates, but the average is about 50-percent) of the greenhouse gases that are causing global warming come from the burning of fossil fuels (primarily coal) to generate electricity. The Solar Roadway therefore has the ability to eliminate half of the greenhouse gases currently being produced.
    Another 25-percent comes out of our tailpipes. A Solar Roadway is an electric road that can recharge electric vehicles (EVs) anywhere. We're talking with companies that make mutual induction plates to charge EVs while they're driving (the "receiver" plate gets mounted beneath the EV and the "transmitter" plate is installed in the road). The Solar Roadway could charge the EVs while they're traveling, which would increase their range. With an infrastructure in place that will make EVs finally practical, people would likely start trading in their internal combustion engine vehicles for EVs. Eventually, we'd have eliminated an additional 25-percent of greenhouse gases.
    Summary: the Solar Roadway has the ability to cut greenhouse gases by up to 75-percent!

    Here he is assuming that solar power will completely eliminate all fossil fuel generation. This is something that can only happen if (1) people quit using power at night, on cloudy days, and in the north, in the winter, or (2) a means of storage is available. In other words, it's misleading at best, and actually, in my opinion, is just a plain lie. He also must be assuming that people will only drive their cars in the peak daytime solar hours, in clear weather, in the summer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    The nice thing about math is, it isn't left wing or right wing. So keep asking for those numbers before you send in your crowd source money.
    I'm not sending any until/if I see it work for real and be in use for a while. then we're looking at under a 100 bucks donation... but by that time i'm sure the big evil government will be funding it. So, it's win win
    Good for you. But as you should know, the big evil government does not always make good, scientifically informed decisions. Sometimes it's based on - surprise - politics, and as long as the voters are taken in by false claims, it will keep on happening.
    Liberal doesn't mean Naive. I know this. My number 1 concern over this isn't so much that it works but that Edison and other electric companies, as well as mexicali and other cement companies haven't launched a full on assault smear campaign against it. but then again they may not be expecting it to get off the ground/be a threat based on the sheer size of the project they're proposing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    The solar roadway company had a video endorsement by a Republican senator from Idaho. The company is based in Idaho, so I'm sure he feels he has to support it, to keep an adequate flow of federal pork to the state of Idaho. Otherwise the voters of Idaho would hang him up by his thumbs.
    No doubt, no doubt.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post

    Here he is assuming that solar power will completely eliminate all fossil fuel generation. This is something that can only happen if (1) people quit using power at night, on cloudy days, and in the north, in the winter, or (2) a means of storage is available. In other words, it's misleading at best, and actually, in my opinion, is just a plain lie. He also must be assuming that people will only drive their cars in the peak daytime solar hours, in clear weather, in the summer.
    There has to be a way to store solar power otherwise those solar powered signs and telephones on the highway wouldn't work at night, but they do.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    It's a interesting concept none the less...
    ~ Can it be made to work and can a roadway that is both a solar panel and is filled with light emitting diodes or heaters be made durable and hard wearing.. ? $$$ and calculating the cost.. How ? But the idea still has wings, it might yet be our future. Changes in tecknowledgies have brought us thousands of wind turbines and our hill tops are increasingly being filled with these wind farms..
    As a aside I would suggest that a storage of energies produced is closer than you know.. Those little nicad batteries that right now are running your watch for years.. can be made or soon will be rechargeable..
    The 'Naysayers' have no imagination of technical advancements yet possible.. I see this idea will become fact. When and where is a different issue. What moterways will be sublit.. by solar power.. You can not say none..
    Can you remember the science program that made predictions of the future.. I can, and I remember they showed a car that had electric engines that would be recharged overnight or while at work.. and we now have... or soon will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Liberal doesn't mean Naive. I know this. My number 1 concern over this isn't so much that it works but that Edison and other electric companies, as well as mexicali and other cement companies haven't launched a full on assault smear campaign against it. but then again they may not be expecting it to get off the ground/be a threat based on the sheer size of the project they're proposing.
    They don't have to since there really isn't any sort of realistic proposal as of yet. Even the most rudimentary knowledge of energy production or solar and some back of the envelope calculations make many of their claims obviously ridiculous. Harold's nailed the most important one, that being energy production of any form that can't be used for base loading is very limited and tremendously expensive at this time. Once we build the infrastructure to move power from region to region and develop mass storage such schemes will be worth a close look...we just aren't there yet.

    There has to be a way to store solar power otherwise those solar powered signs and telephones on the highway wouldn't work at night, but they do.
    Sure there are with toxic polluting batteries that use a lot of energy to produce. There's also orders of magnitude difference between storing enough energy to run a low power light and the huge power demands inferred by the vid of charging for an electrical vehicles or worst powering a nation. The claims are ludicrous.

    --
    The other eye raiser is the idea of using this to melt roads. Roads are already excellent storage and slow release for solar heat...much much more efficient than anything that can be constructed from much lower efficiency PV panels.
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    My number 1 concern over this isn't so much that it works but that Edison and other electric companies, as well as mexicali and other cement companies haven't launched a full on assault smear campaign against it.
    The electric companies have a legitimate complaint whenever they are forced to buy solar power at retail prices without being compensated for lost revenue. Cement companies would make out like bandits. There's a whole big concrete structure under the roadway that's going to need more concrete than the road bed.
    Can you remember the science program that made predictions of the future.. I can, and I remember they showed a car that had electric engines that would be recharged overnight or while at work.. and we now have... or soon will.
    Actually, electric cars are a pretty old idea, dating back to the 1880s. And, where's my flying car? They were predicting that, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    It's a interesting concept none the less...
    ~ Can it be made to work and can a roadway that is both a solar panel and is filled with light emitting diodes or heaters be made durable and hard wearing.. ? $$$ and calculating the cost.. How ? But the idea still has wings, it might yet be our future. Changes in tecknowledgies have brought us thousands of wind turbines and our hill tops are increasingly being filled with these wind farms..
    As a aside I would suggest that a storage of energies produced is closer than you know.. Those little nicad batteries that right now are running your watch for years.. can be made or soon will be rechargeable..
    The 'Naysayers' have no imagination of technical advancements yet possible.. I see this idea will become fact. When and where is a different issue. What moterways will be sublit.. by solar power.. You can not say none..
    Can you remember the science program that made predictions of the future.. I can, and I remember they showed a car that had electric engines that would be recharged overnight or while at work.. and we now have... or soon will.
    Give this man a bonus and a promotion!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Liberal doesn't mean Naive. I know this. My number 1 concern over this isn't so much that it works but that Edison and other electric companies, as well as mexicali and other cement companies haven't launched a full on assault smear campaign against it. but then again they may not be expecting it to get off the ground/be a threat based on the sheer size of the project they're proposing.
    They don't have to since there really isn't any sort of realistic proposal as of yet. Even the most rudimentary knowledge of energy production or solar and some back of the envelope calculations make many of their claims obviously ridiculous. Harold's nailed the most important one, that being energy production of any form that can't be used for base loading is very limited and tremendously expensive at this time. Once we build the infrastructure to move power from region to region and develop mass storage such schemes will be worth a close look...we just aren't there yet.

    There has to be a way to store solar power otherwise those solar powered signs and telephones on the highway wouldn't work at night, but they do.
    Sure there are with toxic polluting batteries that use a lot of energy to produce. There's also orders of magnitude difference between storing enough energy to run a low power light and the huge power demands inferred by the vid of charging for an electrical vehicles or worst powering a nation. The claims are ludicrous.

    --
    The other eye raiser is the idea of using this to melt roads. Roads are already excellent storage and slow release for solar heat...much much more efficient than anything that can be constructed from much lower efficiency PV panels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    The electric companies have a legitimate complaint whenever they are forced to buy solar power at retail prices without being compensated for lost revenue.
    I read this article awhile back too! and it's absolute nonsense!!! The electric companies are the last people to complain about retail prices. If they think it's too high lower the freaking price!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Cement companies would make out like bandits. There's a whole big concrete structure under the roadway that's going to need more concrete than the road bed.
    Seriously? I would think they would put it on top of the the existing roadway no further cement needed.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    How are you going to collect solar power with all the cars blocking the light?
    (Forget about the tire tracks and grease)
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    how are you going to collect solar power with all the cars blocking the light?
    (forget about the tire tracks and grease)
    security!
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    I really want this to happen. So everybody's "reasonable questions," and talk of "grease and dirt blocking solar collection," and all of the "real life situations" surrounding it is really starting to piss me off
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Seriously? I would think they would put it on top of the the existing roadway no further cement needed.
    It looks like they put the panels on a concrete slab, but then there are also buried concrete channels for the power lines and communication cables that are supposed to run alongside.
    Solar Roadways - Phase II Prototype

    While they claim that the replaceable solar panels will simplify road maintenance, I wonder if that is really true. The concrete slab will degrade over time, due to frost heave, rebar corrosion, etc., and if it cracks or shifts, the panels sitting on top will also crack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Not to take sides on this (even though I've given you a ton of likes in this thread already, Panda) or even change the subject, but why do you know what you're talking about? Do you work for an electric company? are you an electrical engineer?
    I worked in the electricity industry for 6 years, ranging from domestic metering through to industrial supplies and national distribution.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Yes. It is obviously bogus to claim or imply that solar power will replace 100% let alone 300%, of conventionally generated power, if it is not available around the clock or year round.
    But that is not what they said.
    But I guess you have to misrepresent them to avoid admitting your mistake, which seems to be your standard tactic.
    Honesty has never been one of your strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    And going back to your claim that enough "solar power to provide 3 times the power requirements of the US" is pointless.
    Can you really not think of a single financially beneficial use for excess electricity?
    (There is more than one use - but I am setting the bar low as I know you aren't well educated on this matter.)
    You tell me. Better yet, show me how it is being used. They have a metric crap load of excess power in Germany on some days in the summer. What are they doing with it?
    Well, that confirms that you don't know what you are talking about.
    What a surprise! /sarcasm-off
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Yes. It is obviously bogus to claim or imply that solar power will replace 100% let alone 300%, of conventionally generated power, if it is not available around the clock or year round.
    But that is not what they said.
    But I guess you have to misrepresent them to avoid admitting your mistake, which seems to be your standard tactic.
    Honesty has never been one of your strengths.
    I misrepresented nothing. They said that 50 % of greenhouse gases are from burning fossil fuels for electricity and 25 % from car tailpipes, and therefore the solar roadway could cut 75 % of greenhouse gases. This mean that they are claiming that the solar roadway can replace all electrical generation by fossil fuels and all fossil fuels for transportation. Now, what was my mistake?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    blah blah blah
    You are posting again!
    Remember: you are very ignorant on this subject.

    It would really be best if you just stopped posting.
    But I expect that Dunning-Kruger will not allow that to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Now, what was my mistake?
    Any attempt to educate you would be a futile endeavour.
    I don't see the point in trying to teach a pig to sing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Any attempt to educate you would be a futile endeavour.
    I don't see the point in trying to teach a pig to sing.
    In other words, you've got nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Any attempt to educate you would be a futile endeavour.
    I don't see the point in trying to teach a pig to sing.
    In other words, you've got nothing.
    Is English not your first language?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Any attempt to educate you would be a futile endeavour.
    I don't see the point in trying to teach a pig to sing.
    In other words, you've got nothing.
    Is English not your first language?
    You are clearly blinded by ideology. I won't call you a liar like you called me. They did make a bogus claim, which I've shown very conclusively. Do you have anything to show otherwise, or can I just expect more snarky comments?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Any attempt to educate you would be a futile endeavour.
    I don't see the point in trying to teach a pig to sing.
    In other words, you've got nothing.
    Is English not your first language?
    You are clearly blinded by ideology. I won't call you a liar like you called me. They did make a bogus claim, which I've shown very conclusively.
    Wow - your English is embarrassingly subpar if you think that in any way answers my question.
    I would recommend that you attended some remedial classes, but I know that you are allergic to education.
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    Yeah, more snark. What I expected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Yeah, more snark. What I expected.
    Well, what's the point in casting pearls before the swine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Really? Maybe you should learn how it works yourself. If you can't store the renewable power, then you have to have a backup for when the renewables are not available. That means fossil fuels or nuclear, mostly.
    Or aggregated load. Much cheaper.

    If you have to have enough generating capacity to power the grid when your renewables are unavailable, then you have to build double generating capacity -renewables plus your reliable source of power.
    No, it doesn't work that way. Again, aggregated load is a lot cheaper.

    Then when your electric bill goes up, you wonder why. How can my electric bill be going up when we are getting all this "free" renewable power.
    Because some people don't want to install solar. That's fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Really? Maybe you should learn how it works yourself. If you can't store the renewable power, then you have to have a backup for when the renewables are not available. That means fossil fuels or nuclear, mostly.
    Or aggregated load. Much cheaper.

    If you have to have enough generating capacity to power the grid when your renewables are unavailable, then you have to build double generating capacity -renewables plus your reliable source of power.
    No, it doesn't work that way. Again, aggregated load is a lot cheaper.
    I found this definition of aggregated load:
    When the loads of several customers are aggregated, non-coincident peaks and valleys in the load profiles of individual customers tend to offset one other. This dampening effect results in a flatter overall load profile, a higher load factor, and ultimately, lower per unit energy costs for all members of an aggregate group.
    At night time, the aggregated load of all solar PV panels in an area is zero. Nothing plus nothing plus nothing equals nothing.

    Then when your electric bill goes up, you wonder why. How can my electric bill be going up when we are getting all this "free" renewable power.
    Because some people don't want to install solar. That's fine.
    You're missing the point. If everybody installs solar, then the cost per kilowatt-hour from the electric company at night or on cloudy days has to go up. This is because they must keep their generating plants operating at less than full capacity. The generating plant saves some fuel but the operating and construction costs are essentially the same, whether you are putting out full power or not.
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    I admit, the video circulating on facebook and elsewhere is impressive. This article made, though, made me skeptical.Why the Solar Roadways Project on Indiegogo is Actually Really Silly | Madan

    But a lot of good ideas start out almost right, and it might make more sense to use these panels on un-used surfaces that aren't being driven on. In the north. It's hard to believe the panels really would melt the snow and not just turn roads to more dangerous, wet skating rink when it's -20 or less, or that frost heave wouldn't be a problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    At night time, the aggregated load of all solar PV panels in an area is zero. Nothing plus nothing plus nothing equals nothing.
    Solar panels are a source not a load.

    Aggregated load is a concept where specific loads for power customers are "aggregated" and shed when power demand exceeds a certain limit. Public power companies are required to maintain a certain margin; they are allowed to count aggregated load towards that margin. Thus this sheddable load is an alternative to buying/running more power plants. Aggregating all the water pumps for a large city's water system, for example, might allow a reduction in load of 100 megawatts; they can count this as a 100 megawatt peaker for purposes of margin maintenance. (And since water pumps pump to reservoirs, shutting them down for two hours does not affect water supply.)

    You're missing the point. If everybody installs solar, then the cost per kilowatt-hour from the electric company at night or on cloudy days has to go up. This is because they must keep their generating plants operating at less than full capacity.
    Incorrect. In fact, in California, solar has reduced the need for natural gas peakers, since peak solar generation is synchronous with peak demand (primarily A/C during hot, sunny days.) This has been significant enough that the "old" peak (the 1-3pm peak) is no longer what they have to plan for; the new peak (which is significantly less than the old one) occurs around 7pm, when solar is off-line, people are arriving home and businesses have not reduced their loads yet. Fortunately since it is a smaller peak they need fewer peakers standing by.

    Currently utilities are learning to deal with distributed generation, aggregated load and grid-scale storage. These technologies can both save them money and cost them money.

    Savings:
    -Reduction in losses and maintenance due to reduced need for power transmission during solar generation
    -Reduction in required buildout of distribution in solar-heavy areas

    Costs:
    -Reduction in revenue from solar customers
    -Increase in control costs for aggregated load and distributed generation control

    Some utilities are dealing with intelligently (SDG+E and SCE are examples here) and some are just taking a "charge more and don't worry about it" route (like Arizona's APC.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    In the north. It's hard to believe the panels really would melt the snow and not just turn roads to more dangerous, wet skating rink when it's -20 or less, or that frost heave wouldn't be a problem.
    Agreed. Putting them over the road solves the snow problem (by blocking the snow) and makes design a lot simpler.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    At night time, the aggregated load of all solar PV panels in an area is zero. Nothing plus nothing plus nothing equals nothing.
    Solar panels are a source not a load.

    Aggregated load is a concept where specific loads for power customers are "aggregated" and shed when power demand exceeds a certain limit. Public power companies are required to maintain a certain margin; they are allowed to count aggregated load towards that margin. Thus this sheddable load is an alternative to buying/running more power plants. Aggregating all the water pumps for a large city's water system, for example, might allow a reduction in load of 100 megawatts; they can count this as a 100 megawatt peaker for purposes of margin maintenance. (And since water pumps pump to reservoirs, shutting them down for two hours does not affect water supply.)

    You're missing the point. If everybody installs solar, then the cost per kilowatt-hour from the electric company at night or on cloudy days has to go up. This is because they must keep their generating plants operating at less than full capacity.
    Incorrect. In fact, in California, solar has reduced the need for natural gas peakers, since peak solar generation is synchronous with peak demand (primarily A/C during hot, sunny days.) This has been significant enough that the "old" peak (the 1-3pm peak) is no longer what they have to plan for; the new peak (which is significantly less than the old one) occurs around 7pm, when solar is off-line, people are arriving home and businesses have not reduced their loads yet. Fortunately since it is a smaller peak they need fewer peakers standing by.

    Currently utilities are learning to deal with distributed generation, aggregated load and grid-scale storage. These technologies can both save them money and cost them money.

    Savings:
    -Reduction in losses and maintenance due to reduced need for power transmission during solar generation
    -Reduction in required buildout of distribution in solar-heavy areas

    Costs:
    -Reduction in revenue from solar customers
    -Increase in control costs for aggregated load and distributed generation control

    Some utilities are dealing with intelligently (SDG+E and SCE are examples here) and some are just taking a "charge more and don't worry about it" route (like Arizona's APC.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Incorrect. In fact, in California, solar has reduced the need for natural gas peakers, since peak solar generation is synchronous with peak demand (primarily A/C during hot, sunny days.) This has been significant enough that the "old" peak (the 1-3pm peak) is no longer what they have to plan for; the new peak (which is significantly less than the old one) occurs around 7pm, when solar is off-line, people are arriving home and businesses have not reduced their loads yet.
    Can you show some numbers to back this up.

    All I could find put this claim in serious doubt, with only a very slight shift in either total or timing of peak load from year to year:

    http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Calif...oadHistory.pdf

    And I think the relative flatness of the change has a lot more to do with improved efficiencies (e.g. insulation, better AC units etc) CA has imposed (at much less cost), than power generation by utility or grid-connected solar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    In the north. It's hard to believe the panels really would melt the snow and not just turn roads to more dangerous, wet skating rink when it's -20 or less, or that frost heave wouldn't be a problem.
    Agreed. Putting them over the road solves the snow problem (by blocking the snow) and makes design a lot simpler.
    Do you mean make a type of building over the road first to hold them up?
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    If you put them over the roads, like on posts, you'd still have snow accumulating on top of them (it can snow a lot) plus now you have wind to deal with. Anyway, if you just need unused space (snow or no snow) why not the meridian of a highway? It might make sense to use a parking lot of a building along with their roof, because people are driving at low speeds, no heavy trucks, although if the lot is completely full from dawn to dusk that decreases the surface area I would think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Can you show some numbers to back this up.
    Can't show you San Diego numbers because that came from a discussion with an SDG+E planner. (Other interesting point - they now see a significant bump between 11pm and 4am from EV charging.)

    However here are the California numbers overall. Since we have more solar than most other parts of the state it's more dramatic here.

    http://www.menloenergy.com/?p=1068


    And I think the relative flatness of the change has a lot more to do with improved efficiencies (e.g. insulation, better AC units etc) CA has imposed (at much less cost), than power generation by utility or grid-connected solar.
    Agreed, that's part of it - but doesn't explain the relative change between noon load and 7pm load.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Agreed, that's part of it - but doesn't explain the relative change between noon load and 7pm load.
    If you mean in solar charging sure that makes sense. As far as being significant to change the peak demand time, I haven't seen anything to suggest it's having any effect as of yet, which brings us to Harold's original point that though a fossil fuel plant might not be used as often during the day, the utility still needs to build in their redundant and costly capability.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; June 6th, 2014 at 06:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    If you mean in solar charging sure that makes sense. As far as being significant to change the peak demand time, I haven't seen anything to suggest it's having any effect as of yet
    Well, you can see from the link I posted that the central "hump" is already below the 7pm peak. It doesn't go beyond 2012 but if you go back 3-4 years you'll see that the midday hump used to be larger. Since we (California that is) now have 4 gigawatts of solar generation, that reduces the size of the midday hump on those days (hot and sunny) when demand is highest, which is why California (and specifically San Diego) utilities now have a lower peak to deal with on such days.
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    Hmm..
    Not seeing which figure you are discussing. This one? http://www.menloenergy.com/?p=1068
    Which shows both the overproduction risk by 2020 and the fact that on that March day all that solar still did absolutely nothing to reduce the huge peak in demand much later?
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    I've always liked the idea of harvesting the solar energy hitting roads. No doubt that using road verges, and awnings would pose less engineering difficulties than using the road surface itself, although, given that solar powered road studs are reliable technologies, PV can be made to be very durable in some extreme conditions.

    There are a couple of working examples of solar thermal roads systems, for heating and cooling building and keeping roads and airstrips ice free -

    When solar power is abundant and cheap then there is incentive to do energy intensive processes when it is; I doubt businesses would seek to do things that way but if energy costs are a serious cost they could see advantage to it. Existing fossil fuel plant will have to go offline more often as solar penetration grows, but most places wouldn't need new plant built specifically if the transition is well managed. I've never been convinced that large scale and cost effective energy storage is beyond our capabilities, and technologies like Isentropic's Pumped Heat Energy Storage that claim lower costs than pumped hydro, are showing that creative use of existing technologies can go a long way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fabos View Post
    I've never been convinced that large scale and cost effective energy storage is beyond our capabilities, and technologies like Isentropic's Pumped Heat Energy Storage that claim lower costs than pumped hydro, are showing that creative use of existing technologies can go a long way.
    Creative, maybe, but again no numbers to show it can really do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Which shows both the overproduction risk by 2020 and the fact that on that March day all that solar still did absolutely nothing to reduce the huge peak in demand much later?
    Right; that's my point. That huge peak used to come much earlier. That peak has been "flattened" by solar production to the extent that the 7pm peak is now the bigger one. So they've traded a large problem for a somewhat smaller one. Still a problem of course, but headed in the right direction. (BTW the generic term for this issue is the "duck curve.")
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    Solar roadways copped a very big serve from this bloke Solar Roadways needs to be stopped - Solar Energy - Renewables International

    (One warning. You might have to blow up that second picture quite a bit to see the sheep he's talking about.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Solar roadways copped a very big serve from this bloke Solar Roadways needs to be stopped - Solar Energy - Renewables International

    (One warning. You might have to blow up that second picture quite a bit to see the sheep he's talking about.)
    He's clearly a corporate stooge being bought off. He's also fired.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Not to take sides on this (even though I've given you a ton of likes in this thread already, Panda) or even change the subject, but why do you know what you're talking about? Do you work for an electric company? are you an electrical engineer?
    I worked in the electricity industry for 6 years, ranging from domestic metering through to industrial supplies and national distribution.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Yes. It is obviously bogus to claim or imply that solar power will replace 100% let alone 300%, of conventionally generated power, if it is not available around the clock or year round.
    But that is not what they said.
    But I guess you have to misrepresent them to avoid admitting your mistake, which seems to be your standard tactic.
    Honesty has never been one of your strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    And going back to your claim that enough "solar power to provide 3 times the power requirements of the US" is pointless.
    Can you really not think of a single financially beneficial use for excess electricity?
    (There is more than one use - but I am setting the bar low as I know you aren't well educated on this matter.)
    You tell me. Better yet, show me how it is being used. They have a metric crap load of excess power in Germany on some days in the summer. What are they doing with it?
    Well, that confirms that you don't know what you are talking about.
    What a surprise! /sarcasm-off
    Can you address his point, though? I don't have a clue how electrical grids work, and am not really biased one way or the other on these solar roads thing. It's a neat idea, I like the sound of it, but I'm not qualified to talk about the logistics. But Harold says, "Without a method of storage, unless people only use power at ideal times, the excess power can't do what it claims," and I think, "Hmm. Interesting." You say he has no idea what he is talking about, implying there is a counter argument. But what's the counter argument? I don't necessarily agree with anyone, nor does my agreement really matter since I'm in no position of authority, but it's a little frustrating reading the same thing over and over. It's just a cycle of posts that goes:
    "Here is my point."
    "Obviously false."
    "Well, here's my point again."
    "Nope, nonsense."
    "Restate my point."
    "How ignorant."
    etc. etc.

    Occasionally you address one of the other points he made earlier, but that main point seems largely unaddressed.

    It's frustrating. A real debate would probably be far more constructive. If you could provide the counter argument, he could provide a counter to your counter, and you could do the same to him, and a lot more information about various opinions will be communicated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Can you address his point, though?
    I thought I had.
    He's talking out of his arse.

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    But Harold says, "Without a method of storage, unless people only use power at ideal times, the excess power can't do what it claims," and I think, "Hmm. Interesting."
    What Harold said is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    "Here is my point."
    "Obviously false."
    "Well, here's my point again."
    "Nope, nonsense."
    "Restate my point."
    "How ignorant."
    When someone says something that is wrong, isn't the correct response to say: "That is wrong."?
    And, THB, Harold is not worth any more effort than that.
    He's wrong; he'll stay wrong; he has his own world-view which prevents him from ever accepting anything that conflicts with that world-view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Can you address his point, though?
    I thought I had.
    He's talking out of his arse.

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    But Harold says, "Without a method of storage, unless people only use power at ideal times, the excess power can't do what it claims," and I think, "Hmm. Interesting."
    What Harold said is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    "Here is my point."
    "Obviously false."
    "Well, here's my point again."
    "Nope, nonsense."
    "Restate my point."
    "How ignorant."
    When someone says something that is wrong, isn't the correct response to say: "That is wrong."?
    And, THB, Harold is not worth any more effort than that.
    He's wrong; he'll stay wrong; he has his own world-view which prevents him from ever accepting anything that conflicts with that world-view.

    So is the point that if the energy can't be stored, it's useless during times of year that are really overcast or night time most the day false? How so?
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    'The conversation has evolved into something else as they all seem to.' A have question related to the O P that I ask for your considerations; Solar power generation obviously only works where the sun is shinning.. that's about 50% of the Earths surface most of the time.. 'In the tropics or equatorial zones.' Could the generated power be transported by transmission lines around the glob to share the energies found. If that seems like a too difficult a task then can the energy be trasformed into a better mobile form ?
    I might be all at sea, but a solvable question can be found a answer.. and only maybe..?'
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    This will give you an idea of the problem with intermittent renewables. Note on figure 1, the insignificance and variability of solar PV in Germany in December. Also, the variable nature of wind power.

    Electricity Storage, SBC

    Note the following statement:

    With the exception of pumped hydro storage, the deployment of electricity storage is at an embryonic stage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    So is the point that if the energy can't be stored, it's useless during times of year that are really overcast or night time most the day false? How so?
    Is the statement "Children die if they are not painted with ketchup." false? How so?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Note on figure 1, the insignificance and variability of solar PV in Germany in December.Also, the variable nature of wind power.
    Also note that countries are not dropping renewables because of a lack of storage.
    In fact, the massive growth in renewables makes it look as if they think that renewables are a good idea, despite a lack of storage.

    It is just such a shame that all those thousands of idiots who work in the energy industry can't see what you can see - eh, Harold?
    Clearly, their years of experience do not count for anything when compared to your unmitigated ignorance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    In fact, the massive growth in renewables makes it look as if they think that renewables are a good idea, despite a lack of storage.

    It is just such a shame that all those thousands of idiots who work in the energy industry can't see what you can see - eh, Harold?
    Clearly, their years of experience do not count for anything when compared to your unmitigated ignorance.
    Their years of experience do not count for anything compared to laws that require them to shut down their nuclear power plants and laws that require them to generate a certain percentage of their power with renewables. These laws are voted for and passed by the same kind of people who would send their crowd funding money to Solar Roadways.
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    Some more good information from the Schlumberger web site.
    Grid integration costs resulting from wind are hard to assess and highly system-specific. There is a lack of research into penetration rates higher than 30%.
    The degree of wind’s carbon abatement therefore depends on the grid’s system capacity to compensate for intermittency without relying on carbon-intensive power plants during peak demand periods.
    Meaning, nobody really knows how you would be able to generate more than 30% of electrical power from wind without creating havoc on the grid.
    Despite significant growth in installed capacity in the past 7 years, of 51%, generation is still limited due to a poor load factor.
    In the long run, the IEA estimates that solar PV would need to meet 6-12% of global electricity demand by 2050 in order to contribute to a decarbonized energy system likely to limit the average global temperature increase to 2°C.
    Meaning that you can't expect much more than 12% of your electricity from solar PV, which is a far cry from the 100% that Solar Roadways says is possible.

    You cannot extrapolate the current growth rate of renewables indefinitely. It needs fossil fuel for backup, pending some breakthrough in grid storage. Renewable energy = burning fossil fuels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Their years of experience do not count for anything compared to laws that require them to shut down their nuclear power plants and laws that require them to generate a certain percentage of their power with renewables. These laws are voted for and passed by the same kind of people who would send their crowd funding money to Solar Roadways.
    You must be tired from all that goal-post moving...
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    So is the point that if the energy can't be stored, it's useless during times of year that are really overcast or night time most the day false? How so?
    Is the statement "Children die if they are not painted with ketchup." false? How so?
    You keep ignoring my question. A statement isn't false just because it is. He raises the point that the energy cannot be stored year round, so the roadways are only useful when the sun is shining bright and we need other sources of power the rest of the year sounds perfectly plausible. You say no, that's not true, but don't argue the alternative. What's the counter point? Is it that energy can be stored? Is it that energy can be sent from Alaska to Texas and somewhere in the country is going to get sunlight most of the year? Is it that this is such an efficient power source that it needs only a little sunlight to be effective? If his statement is false, there has to be a reason.

    Why is it that the roadways are useful even at night or during winter/highly overcast months?

    This is not self evident in any definition of the phrase. Not at all. Maybe it is evident to you. It is not to the lay man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Meaning, nobody really knows how you would be able to generate more than 30% of electrical power from wind without creating havoc on the grid.
    That's like saying no one knows how you could add nuclear power plants to the grid without creating havoc - if you said it back in 1950, that is. We will figure it out.
    Meaning that you can't expect much more than 12% of your electricity from solar PV, which is a far cry from the 100% that Solar Roadways says is possible. You cannot extrapolate the current growth rate of renewables indefinitely. It needs fossil fuel for backup, pending some breakthrough in grid storage. Renewable energy = burning fossil fuels.
    I get 100% of my power from the sun and I don't need any fossil fuels to do it. It's really not that hard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    You must be tired from all that goal-post moving...
    Did I move a goalpost? I don't think so. My original post on this thread said that they were citing a useless statistic, and they were - "3 times the power used by the US." This is meaningless unless you can really use that power to replace the power used by the US. I demonstrated that you can't reasonably do that with current technology, and cited an authoritative source.

    Would you mind responding with some actual arguments, instead of snarky comments? Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I am now the (fake) CEO of this company. I want stats, I want numbers, I want costs per mile, I wann a know how quickly we can get this thing up and running AND somebody get security to remove harold14370 from the building!
    That is all
    You have a good idea there about asking for numbers. Yeah, let's see the numbers. It's funny they're asking for contributions without giving any numbers. No, it's not funny, it's a scam.
    Theres no scam there, it's just not going to be usable in many locations like highways where millions of tons of cargo are hualed by trucks per year, and places where freeze and thaw comes into effect.... Think about that bulldozer running over it while removing a few feet of snow.... Parking lots, side walks and such places is where this product will be used.... Solar Freaking Highways is probably a stretch.....
    (warthog) an ugly little animal in Africa that is hunted, killed and eaten by lions.

    Sorry i'm no scientist so don't expect me to use those terms which scientist use
    to explain things.... I am only an observer of things....

    Every dream i've dreamed isn't the life I live in....
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    So is the point that if the energy can't be stored, it's useless during times of year that are really overcast or night time most the day false? How so?
    Is the statement "Children die if they are not painted with ketchup." false? How so?
    You keep ignoring my question.
    No I don't.
    You can tell I didn't ignore your question by the fact I replied to your question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    A statement isn't false just because it is.
    Yes it is.
    Maybe if you tried answering my question, you would see that:
    Is the statement "Children die if they are not painted with ketchup." false? How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    He raises the point that the energy cannot be stored year round, so the roadways are only useful when the sun is shining bright and we need other sources of power the rest of the year sounds perfectly plausible.
    So, all he is saying is that solar panels only generate power during the day?
    Ok.
    If that's all he's saying, then fine.
    I agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    You must be tired from all that goal-post moving...
    Did I move a goalpost?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I don't think so.
    Well, that's not the first time you've been wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    So is the point that if the energy can't be stored, it's useless during times of year that are really overcast or night time most the day false? How so?
    Is the statement "Children die if they are not painted with ketchup." false? How so?
    You keep ignoring my question.
    No I don't.
    You can tell I didn't ignore your question by the fact I replied to your question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    A statement isn't false just because it is.
    Yes it is.
    Maybe if you tried answering my question, you would see that:
    Is the statement "Children die if they are not painted with ketchup." false? How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    He raises the point that the energy cannot be stored year round, so the roadways are only useful when the sun is shining bright and we need other sources of power the rest of the year sounds perfectly plausible.
    So, all he is saying is that solar panels only generate power during the day?
    Ok.
    If that's all he's saying, then fine.
    I agree.
    Ketchup does not contain ingredients that are vital to a child's survival. I can point to empirical evidence of children not slathered in ketchup that are alive.

    His argument says that since Solar power only generates energy at certain times, it is not going to be sufficient year round and other sources are still necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Meaning, nobody really knows how you would be able to generate more than 30% of electrical power from wind without creating havoc on the grid.
    That's like saying no one knows how you could add nuclear power plants to the grid without creating havoc - if you said it back in 1950, that is. We will figure it out.
    Not a good comparison, because nuclear plants never were going to create havoc on the grid. They produce steady, predictable power. Also, it took until the mid to late seventies until nuclear plants started coming on line. To have an effect on climate change, you would need to start building carbon free generating capacity right away.
    Meaning that you can't expect much more than 12% of your electricity from solar PV, which is a far cry from the 100% that Solar Roadways says is possible. You cannot extrapolate the current growth rate of renewables indefinitely. It needs fossil fuel for backup, pending some breakthrough in grid storage. Renewable energy = burning fossil fuels.
    I get 100% of my power from the sun and I don't need any fossil fuels to do it. It's really not that hard.
    Not everybody can live in California, and battery storage remains too expensive for most people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    His argument says that since Solar power only generates energy at certain times, it is not going to be sufficient year round and other sources are still necessary.
    As I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    So, all he is saying is that solar panels only generate power during the day?
    Ok.
    If that's all he's saying, then fine.
    So - what else needs to be discussed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Not everybody can live in California...
    ...therefore it shouldn't be used anywhere !!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Not everybody can live in California...
    ...therefore it shouldn't be used anywhere !!
    Nice straw man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    That's like saying no one knows how you could add nuclear power plants to the grid without creating havoc - if you said it back in 1950, that is. We will figure it out.
    Not a good comparison, because nuclear plants never were going to create havoc on the grid.[/quote]
    We didn't know that back in 1950. People had fears (often irrational) that radioactive power was going to be dangerous, that they would explode like bombs, that they would leak and be unreliable etc. The irrational problems never came to be, and we solved some of the more rational problems (but as recent events have demonstrated, not all of them.)

    We are not much further along in solar power now. There are rational problems (i.e. the inherent unreliability of solar) and irrational problems (i.e. solar will destroy the grid, damage the economy etc.) Some will be ignored, some will be solved.
    To have an effect on climate change, you would need to start building carbon free generating capacity right away.
    Right - and that's happening now. Solar is coming on line in gigawatt quantities.
    I get 100% of my power from the sun and I don't need any fossil fuels to do it. It's really not that hard.
    Not everybody can live in California, and battery storage remains too expensive for most people.
    Right. Solar will never generate 100% of our power, and will never work in all areas. But as time goes on it will generate a very significant chunk of it.
    Also right now the use of hybrids and electric vehicles is expanding tremendously; there are three million on the road right now. That means that three million batteries are sitting there ready to be used. V2G technology will allow utilities to use this existing storage to stabilize supply in the presence of unreliable (wind, solar, tidal, wave) energy sources.
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    Solar is unreliable? What's more reliable than the sun?
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Right - and that's happening now. Solar is coming on line in gigawatt quantities.
    The gigawatt rating is based on the output during the middle of a bright sunny day in the summertime. A gigawatt of solar cannot compare to a gigawatt of fossil fuel or nuclear generating capacity, but that won't prevent solar power enthusiasts from making just that comparison.
    Also right now the use of hybrids and electric vehicles is expanding tremendously; there are three million on the road right now. That means that three million batteries are sitting there ready to be used. V2G technology will allow utilities to use this existing storage to stabilize supply in the presence of unreliable (wind, solar, tidal, wave) energy sources.
    They are not sitting there ready to be charged up if they are on the road, and they are not sitting there ready to power the grid, if the owner thinks he might want to drive somewhere anytime soon.

    The average daily electricity usage in the US is about 11 billion kilowatt hours. The larger Tesla battery is 85 kilowatt hours. Three million Tesla batteries can therefore provide 3*85E6/11E9=~.023 of the daily power on the grid, or a little over half an hour's worth if I have done the math correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf
    Solar is unreliable? What's more reliable than the sun?
    It would be more reliable if it never rained, but even then it is reliably zero for most of the day. Do you not see a problem with that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Not everybody can live in California...
    ...therefore it shouldn't be used anywhere !!
    Nice straw man.
    Well, you don't actually state what your position is, so I had to take a guess.

    So, what is your position?
    Solar power should only be used in California?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Right - and that's happening now. Solar is coming on line in gigawatt quantities.
    The gigawatt rating is based on the output during the middle of a bright sunny day in the summertime. A gigawatt of solar cannot compare to a gigawatt of fossil fuel or nuclear generating capacity, but that won't prevent solar power enthusiasts from making just that comparison.
    A gigawatt of generation capacity in nuclear equates to about four gigawatts of solar. With 37GW coming on line last year, that's equivalent to about 10 large fossil fueled power plants coming on line each year. And that pace is accelerating.

    Also right now the use of hybrids and electric vehicles is expanding tremendously; there are three million on the road right now. That means that three million batteries are sitting there ready to be used. V2G technology will allow utilities to use this existing storage to stabilize supply in the presence of unreliable (wind, solar, tidal, wave) energy sources.
    They are not sitting there ready to be charged up if they are on the road, and they are not sitting there ready to power the grid,
    Most cars are driven less than 10% of the day. And since the current "duck's head" is the 7pm time when people arrive home, they will have that battery sitting there when it's needed.
    The average daily electricity usage in the US is about 11 billion kilowatt hours. The larger Tesla battery is 85 kilowatt hours. Three million Tesla batteries can therefore provide 3*85E6/11E9=~.023 of the daily power on the grid, or a little over half an hour's worth if I have done the math correctly.
    Or half the power we need for an hour - which is exactly what we need to deal with the sort of peak loads we are talking about.
    Last edited by billvon; June 15th, 2014 at 10:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Well, you don't actually state what your position is, so I had to take a guess.

    So, what is your position?
    Solar power should only be used in California?
    Solar power may have a place in hot, dry areas where clouds are less of a problem, there is less seasonal variation, and the peak coincides more or less with the peak air conditioning demand.

    Billvon says he gets all his electrical power from solar. This may be true, but that doesn't mean it makes economic sense. Solar power is expensive even compared to other renewables. That's not my opinion; it comes from the Schlumberger fact sheet.
    Depending on solar irradiance and application size, solar PV electricity prices range from $140 to $600 per MWh, making solar PV more expensive than most other renewables. Deployment in sunnier countries and further cost reductions are thus essential to make solar PV competitive.
    That cost does not even include costs for integrating the messy renewable power onto the grid, which will get higher the more renewables there are, requiring more equipment to mitigate the grid stability issues. Again, that's not my opinion. It's from the fact sheet.
    In addition, grid-integration costs have not been included in these cost estimates.
    [Grid integration] costs are negligible when penetration rates are low, as other flexible resources can accommodate variations in the availability of solar, but rise as the share of intermittent capacity in the generation mix grows.
    http://www.sbc.slb.com/SBCInstitute/...ctbook_vf.ashx
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Solar roadways make a lot more sense with the solar/intelligent part OVER the roadway. More sun, protection from the elements, longer lasting and much cheaper.
    I agree. I was baffled when I saw that solar-roadway scheme. It seems much easier to make canopies of solar panels. It's easy to keep snow off of them by tilting them, for instance.

    It would be like the solar panels recently placed over canals in India: A solar canal rises in India — Tech News and Analysis
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    A road made out of glass? Is this a joke?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwirko View Post
    A road made out of glass? Is this a joke?
    You're probably right about that.

    I'd like to see what happens when lots of fully-loaded 18-wheelers go over those solar-road tiles. Given what they do to more typical roads, it ought to be a very critical test.
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