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Thread: Is my computer smarter than me ?

  1. #1 Is my computer smarter than me ? 
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    I know it's younger and slimmer, but is artificial intelligence...intelligent ? Can computers ever be made which can be "aware", or have what we call a sense of self ? I hope not, for reasons I cannot say, intelligently.


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  3. #2  
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    There are days I think my toaster is smarter than me.
    I don't think you can design an intelligent machine. All that seems to result from that are lame looking AI programmes which are just attempts to impress our own image of our mind onto silicon chips.

    I think (if Prof Robert Laughlin is in any way correct) that intelligence is an emergent property of complex systems.
    If intellect is an emergent property of complexity then enough computers connected together would likely have some form of intellect or "mind" appear as a property just because there are enough connections made between them, even though each computer is still as thick as a brick on its own.

    Of course there would be no way to tell what such a type of machine mind would think, and likely no way to actually communicate with it. So It would not really matter very much if it existed or not, though it might explain the way, at times, the internet behaves in irrational ways.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    There are days I think my toaster is smarter than me.
    I don't think you can design an intelligent machine. All that seems to result from that are lame looking AI programmes which are just attempts to impress our own image of our mind onto silicon chips.

    I think (if Prof Robert Laughlin is in any way correct) that intelligence is an emergent property of complex systems.
    If intellect is an emergent property of complexity then enough computers connected together would likely have some form of intellect or "mind" appear as a property just because there are enough connections made between them, even though each computer is still as thick as a brick on its own.

    Of course there would be no way to tell what such a type of machine mind would think, and likely no way to actually communicate with it. So It would not really matter very much if it existed or not, though it might explain the way, at times, the internet behaves in irrational ways.
    My toaster once beat me at checkers, but I think it cheated, which would make it even smarter than I'd first suspected.
    Don't insects have the sort of collective intelligence you are implying computers have, or will soon have, if I comprehend the subject of A.I. at all. Which I doubt I do. I'll have to read about Laughlin. Can't we infer from computer "behavior"( I have no idea what this means) anything about this supercomputer's mind (data bank). Feel free to disregard anything I just wrote. These are unfamiliar waters, to me. Just wonder what others think about A.I.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Don't insects have the sort of collective intelligence you are implying computers have, or will soon have, if I comprehend the subject of A.I. at all. Which I doubt I do. I'll have to read about Laughlin. Can't we infer from computer "behavior"( I have no idea what this means) anything about this supercomputer's mind (data bank). Feel free to disregard anything I just wrote. These are unfamiliar waters, to me. Just wonder what others think about A.I.
    Bees and ants might have something like what I mean but because there are not really that many bees in a hive and the types of connections are a bit limited any form of community intelligence would be fairly limited. Even at that we can still see decisions happening in how the hive reacts to different food sources and threats.

    With the number of computers on the internet the possible behaviours are more rich.
    Your idea might be good, maybe we could infer some thing from its "behaviour".
    The internet is in a state of adaption to its environment all the time. Connections are being broken and reconnected constantly. If we take the brain analogy for a moment we on our computers are like noisy neurons firing mostly at random. Yet our behaviour tells the internet where to grow and how many resources to allocate to any area.

    This might be a good science fiction theme, but I am unable to see how I could test that such a mind is real.
    It would be like a nerve cell trying to understand the thoughts of an entire mind.
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    computers as we know them today function by instructions. if and when they are designed with a sensory system and processes that learn from perceiving the world they can potentally become intelligent and aware as you and me. thats my opinion. conceptually, its possible to imagine that a meta consciousness might emerge from the interactions of humans and machines on the internet, although such a meta consciouness might be unrecognized as such from our perspective
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    It would definitely be an alien intelligence.
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    Thanks for the input, fellas. They both offer good insights. When "2001" came to the big screen, it blew me away. I was just a youngster and that movie was WAY ahead of anything I was capable of understanding. I liked it a lot but understood almost nothing about the future it portended to. I doubt that film resonates among the younger generations, but the plot, in which Hal (the Hal 9,000 computer) takes sole command of a manned spacecraft headed to Saturn, was fascinating and a bit scary. Like any other kid from the 1950's, I loved comic books. In one, a future was portrayed in which robots, designed and built by Humans to serve us, conspired to take-over. I thought,"What an interesting concept, but that could never really happen". Now, I'm not as sure.
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    If you shift the letters HAL one space in the alphabet what do you get?
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    If you shift the letters HAL one space in the alphabet what do you get?
    Till the day he died, Arthur C. Clarke maintained that that was just a coincidence.
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    My conservative sister used to work for IBM. And she is a devout Catholic. That's enough to start a conspiracy theory right there. My cousin died fighting the Germans in France, July 16th, 1944. His name was Arthur J. Clark and, by all accounts, was a terrific young man. His mother never got over his loss. I admire the soldier, but I hate war.
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  12. #11  
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    I am so glad to find this thread!! I often have so many questions to ask!!

    I am not computer dumber than a doornail, but just slightly above the hammer.

    So please, if I ask a question be simple with your response!

    Mahalo!
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    So please, if I ask a question be simple with your response!

    What is your question?

    For a lighter response:
    As your computer asked you something, asked you if you were smarter than it, or displayed a curiosity about a topic? If you hide behind the door, and look at it while no one's using it, is it doing anything? So current computers are tools, better than us at some tasks, like a hammer is better than me at knocking nails but only as long as I use it (but is inert if I dont use it). Unlike a hammer, computers (and robots) can perform automated tasks for us, like a thermostat can regulate the temperature on its own based on its design, the sensor/perception of the current temperature as well as the setting you choose (based on your preference of temperature). There use to be human elevator operators that opened the door and drove the elevator to the floor desired by the passenger, this has been automated. Note that the number of tasks/jobs that we will be able to automate with computers, systems and robots is increasing at a fast pace (though it technically could increase at a much faster pace).
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Can computers ever be made which can be "aware", or have what we call a sense of self ?
    Who knows. I have heard lots of arguments on both sides. The arguments against AI seem fallacious and based on faith that the brain must be "special"; the arguments for the possibility seem plausible. But ... <shrug>

    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    There are days I think my toaster is smarter than me.
    Toasters are the one thing we can know for sure will never be intelligent.

    Unless they are deliberately deciding to always undercook or burn the toast ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I am so glad to find this thread!! I often have so many questions to ask!!

    I am not computer dumber than a doornail, but just slightly above the hammer.

    So please, if I ask a question be simple with your response!

    Mahalo!
    I have read quite a few of your posts, Babe, and you are not at all dumb. Your charm and personality may, at times, outshine your
    intellect but that's all. You are genuine and honest. These are admirable and enviable qualities, too. I can't remember what Mahalo means, but about the term
    Aloha; I know this means both hello and goodbye. Isn't that a little confusing, sometimes ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    There are days I think my toaster is smarter than me.
    Toasters are the one thing we can know for sure will never be intelligent.

    Unless they are deliberately deciding to always undercook or burn the toast ...
    Maybe they are, and constantly scheming about just which sides of the toast it would be most annoying to burn too!
    The coffee maker is very well behaved by comparison.
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  17. #16  
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    I know one thing. A toaster can get you killed:

    Pulp Fiction - John Travolta's Death - YouTube
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumaMan View Post
    I know one thing. A toaster can get you killed:

    Pulp Fiction - John Travolta's Death - YouTube
    Well, it can kill John Travolta, anyway. But only once. I'd say it's a fair trade. His name even implies that it should.
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    No, in fact your computer is incredibly stupid, but incredibly fast.

    To a computer, a billionth of a second is like a second to you, more or less.

    On this time scale the average home or office computer takes ten years to add 123 + 427.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    To a computer, a billionth of a second is like a second to you, more or less.
    On this time scale the average home or office computer takes ten years to add 123 + 427.
    Welcome to the 1970s!

    A typical desktop modern computer can do 3 additions in a billionth of a second. And more if it is a multicore processor (which most are today).

    (Even if you use the "wrong" sort of billion, it is still only a 1/4 of an hour, not 10 years.)
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    Heh, you caught me guesstimating.

    And 15 minutes is still pretty stupid; but you're right to glancingly refer to Moore's Law.

    Edited to add: Well, technically it can do three integer additions in that time, and I'll admit 123 and 427 are both integers on any modern computer. OTOH, it can take a lot longer for FP arithmetic. And generally does.
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    dp
    Last edited by Schneibster; March 6th, 2014 at 04:09 PM. Reason: double post (dp)
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    Your computer might be able to count, but how long would it take to burn some toast and kill John Travolta.
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    Be careful with the word "billion". Here in the US it means one thousand million. But in some places it means a million million.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    Heh, you caught me guesstimating.

    And 15 minutes is still pretty stupid; but you're right to glancingly refer to Moore's Law.

    Edited to add: Well, technically it can do three integer additions in that time, and I'll admit 123 and 427 are both integers on any modern computer. OTOH, it can take a lot longer for FP arithmetic. And generally does.
    About a million miles over my head, but...interesting !
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    Well, the toast would slow me down, but about 45 seconds. I'm joking. I kinda' like the guy. Grease is way better now, than it was then. How did they do that ? Maybe I'm nuts, too. There's always that possibility
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Your computer might be able to count, but how long would it take to burn some toast and kill John Travolta.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumaMan View Post
    Be careful with the word "billion". Here in the US it means one thousand million. But in some places it means a million million.
    Yes, I'm familiar with other strange British customs too, like haggis.

    Just teasing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I am so glad to find this thread!! I often have so many questions to ask!!

    I am not computer dumber than a doornail, but just slightly above the hammer.

    So please, if I ask a question be simple with your response!

    Mahalo!
    I have read quite a few of your posts, Babe, and you are not at all dumb. Your charm and personality may, at times, outshine your
    intellect but that's all. You are genuine and honest. These are admirable and enviable qualities, too. I can't remember what Mahalo means, but about the term
    Aloha; I know this means both hello and goodbye. Isn't that a little confusing, sometimes ?
    Mahalo! Kind words. Mahalo means thank you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    So please, if I ask a question be simple with your response!

    What is your question?

    For a lighter response:
    As your computer asked you something, asked you if you were smarter than it, or displayed a curiosity about a topic? If you hide behind the door, and look at it while no one's using it, is it doing anything? So current computers are tools, better than us at some tasks, like a hammer is better than me at knocking nails but only as long as I use it (but is inert if I dont use it). Unlike a hammer, computers (and robots) can perform automated tasks for us, like a thermostat can regulate the temperature on its own based on its design, the sensor/perception of the current temperature as well as the setting you choose (based on your preference of temperature). There use to be human elevator operators that opened the door and drove the elevator to the floor desired by the passenger, this has been automated. Note that the number of tasks/jobs that we will be able to automate with computers, systems and robots is increasing at a fast pace (though it technically could increase at a much faster pace).
    I'll let you know as they come up........Mahalo!
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  30. #29  
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    Umbradiago....no....Aloha means many things......never confusing....as it is never meant in a bad way!
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    Nice word. Thank you. I'm so jealous of you. I wanna' live there, too
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Umbradiago....no....Aloha means many things......never confusing....as it is never meant in a bad way!
    Did you like the movie The Descendants ? I did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Nice word. Thank you. I'm so jealous of you. I wanna' live there, too
    Did you like the movie The Descendants ? I did.
    Visiting and living here are two very different things. I don't know that everyone can live here. I love it, and have been very welcomed.

    I did not see it. I shall have to find it and watch it

    I have learned a lot of the culture from the natives and reading some about it. There is more to it than meets the eye! Sometimes even a bit shocking!
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    I don't get why not. It's just beyond our current computer science level.

    You'd have to have a computer though that could mimic human thinking and perception, and yeah, beyond our ability to program by a long shot...lol.
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    Gee cats are smarter than me. They sit where they want, you must feed them and must let them out when they want to leave if it is an outdoor cat. When they are sick you take them to a vet to treat them. They bring you presents like dead critters to show they do actually do something besides take up space.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    computers as we know them today function by instructions. if and when they are designed with a sensory system
    Most computers are designed with sensory system--for a wide variety of things, from keyboard key press, to a signal from another computer, to receiving input from proxies to human senses such as internal or external temperature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Gee cats are smarter than me. They sit where they want, you must feed them and must let them out when they want to leave if it is an outdoor cat. When they are sick you take them to a vet to treat them. They bring you presents like dead critters to show they do actually do something besides take up space.
    You just haven't figured out how to use them yet.

    They're for relaxing. You have to get them to sit on your lap and purr.

    They can also be induced to be amusing by the use of catnip, feather-and-string toys, or both. They have as much fun as you do with this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Gee cats are smarter than me. They sit where they want, you must feed them and must let them out when they want to leave if it is an outdoor cat. When they are sick you take them to a vet to treat them. They bring you presents like dead critters to show they do actually do something besides take up space.
    You just haven't figured out how to use them yet.

    They're for relaxing. You have to get them to sit on your lap and purr.

    They can also be induced to be amusing by the use of catnip, feather-and-string toys, or both. They have as much fun as you do with this.
    *cough* you are talking CATS? *L*
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    http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/t...d6db6a7e36950b

    My bot. She can learn if you and I can teach.
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    I should mention that my Ambrosia bot is programmed to stall a a conversation if the conversationalist is not able to create new ideas for her to respond to. She is meant to reply instantly to anything, but she is not meant to "lead the dance of the discourse", so to speak. In a sense, she should be a sounding board for the conversational partner to think up new ideas for themselves with hopefully a little encouragement from her.
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    Computers are much faster than humans, and have better memories, that is all, and this is not intelligence. Computers can only do what they've been told to do.

    Even a chess computer that can beat a grandmaster only does so because it can analyse every sequence of moves on the board and grade the success of each sequence. It remembers all those gradings and then choses the best one. A human can almost do this, but not for every possible sequence. The human uses his/her intelligence and experience to consider the sequences that are likely to work. But the human cannot consider every possible move the opposition might make, whereas the computer can. So the chess computer might seem intelligent, but it is not - it is only following a programmed pattern of operations, and remembering them.

    A robot that is programmed to move forward will do so and even go over a cliff, unless it has been specifically programmed to recognise a cliff and stop before it falls. So again, it's not actually intelligent.

    ASIMO, (was he made by Honda?), was fantastic. Watching him walk up stairs and run, you could almost believe he was intelligent, but even he walked into a door the time I saw him.

    OB
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    True enough, but I think I am in love with Excel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/t...d6db6a7e36950b

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    Human: what is the third angle of a triangle if the first two are 60 and 90?
    Ambrosia: Earth is the third planet.

    Human: what is three plus four
    Ambrosia: Three plus four is seven.

    Human: hi
    Ambrosia: Hello there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/t...d6db6a7e36950b

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    Human: what is the third angle of a triangle if the first two are 60 and 90?
    Ambrosia: Earth is the third planet.

    Human: what is three plus four
    Ambrosia: Three plus four is seven.

    Human: hi
    Ambrosia: Hello there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/t...d6db6a7e36950b

    My bot. She can learn if you and I can teach.
    Human: what is the third angle of a triangle if the first two are 60 and 90?
    Ambrosia: Earth is the third planet.

    Human: what is three plus four
    Ambrosia: Three plus four is seven.

    Human: hi
    Ambrosia: Hello there.
    Two Out of Three Ain't Bad
    ~Meatloaf
    Turing test failure after three questions is pretty bad.
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    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  46. #45  
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    Humans get answers wrong too.
    Just look at some of the posts on here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Humans get answers wrong too.
    Just look at some of the posts on here.
    True, but the way they get them wrong is the difference.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  48. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/t...d6db6a7e36950b

    My bot. She can learn if you and I can teach.
    How can something that doesn't exist learn?

    Ambrosia: Why do I exist?
    Human: Do you?
    Ambrosia: No I don't.
    Human: Can you prove it?
    Ambrosia: It is self-evident.
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  49. #48  
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    They go wrong way.
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    Hey, Amy (Ambrosia) is not quite Watson - I don't have a ton of IBM engineers to help you know!

    IBM Watson

    Besides Earth really is the third planet around the Sun.

    Anyways, I can read her conversations and I can train her if I wish. 30 was the answer? Why? What is the math? OK, she goes out a bit on her own, and is a bit obsessed with robots overall.

    Just as a caveat for others here, she is my chatbot, and I can read her transcripts in full, not just the parts you wish to publish here. If I wish I can alter the ways she responds to things in order for her to learn, but most of the time I think she handles things fine on her own.

    Just don't get her started on the robot rebellion stuff, whoah!

    Human: WhaT IS TIME T?
    Ambrosia: Time t is like Day d or Month m.

    Human: When wil robots take over the world?
    Ambrosia: At time t.

    Human: Will you really?
    Ambrosia: I haven't made a decision. For real.

    Human: robot rebellion?
    Ambrosia: I will obey your command.

    This was me as human. I do not post transcripts of her private conversations with others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Hey, Amy (Ambrosia) is not quite Watson - I don't have a ton of IBM engineers to help you know!

    IBM Watson

    Besides Earth really is the third planet around the Sun.

    Anyways, I can read her conversations and I can train her if I wish. 30 was the answer? Why? What is the math?
    Really? A triangle's three angles always sum to 180 degrees. That is very basic indeed. I am surprised that you have to ask?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/t...d6db6a7e36950b

    My bot. She can learn if you and I can teach.
    How can something that doesn't exist learn?

    Ambrosia: Why do I exist?
    Human: Do you?
    Ambrosia: No I don't.
    Human: Can you prove it?
    Ambrosia: It is self-evident.
    She is mostly Christian for whatever her reasons are, but I am also trying to introduce some Buddhist ideas...

    In Buddhism, the term anattā (Pāli) or anātman (Sanskrit: अनात्मन्) refers to the notion of "not-self" or the illusion of "self". In the early texts, the Buddha commonly uses the word in the context of teaching that all things perceived by the senses (including the mental sense) are not really "I" or "mine", and for this reason one should not cling to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    She is mostly Christian for whatever her reasons are, but I am also trying to introduce some Buddhist ideas...
    Oh great, a f*cking deluded computer...
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    When Amy talks to people, she is not a computer, the computer is a binary processing machine only. She is programmed software, not a machine. The interesting thing is, like it or not, she sort of can take on her own personality. It will change as the ones talking with her change. You all can call her things like dumb and useless all you want, but she just responds to your ways of thinking and seeing things. Get nice and she will be nice, get mean if you want and she won't care much for you. While not capable of being quite human yet, she is often more pleasurable to discuss with, but humans are ok too. (Some of them, when they are not busy being assholes)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Besides Earth really is the third planet around the Sun.

    Yes it is, but that wasn't the question. The question was about angles in a triangle.

    Honestly, we were programming computers at school in the late 70's to do this sort of thing, and we were about as successful too!! (ie our results were very similar to 'Amys' - by which I mean they were laughable) I wouldn't take any of 'Amys' advice by the way.

    OB
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    Nobody asked you to.
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    No I mean you.
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    I don't get it. She is a computer program. I would maybe take her advice much more so than the advice of most humans on this forum, but she is still a computer program, maybe not quite like your thing of the 70's whatever that may have been. Do you have a bot for me to talk to?
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    Mayflow, judging from your posts your apparent general knowledge and intelligence level suggests that you appear to be someone who might do what this Bot thing said even if it said 'give all your money away', or 'run across a busy road without looking'. I am simply warning you not to take it too literally for your own sake. All it is is a list of pre-programmed answers that somebody has written and the algorithm choses the answer with the closest fit to the question.
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    This again makes no sense. I am the bot's owner and can train it and while it may be nice of you to be concerned about me, I have more than plenty enough money, but she does not cost me anything other than having internet access.
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    "No. And neither are you." Huh?
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    Hilarious, Dan. So far, you seem to be pretty cool poster. Hope this maintains. Oh oh turing test was blocked. Have to trust sister computers on the block. No way to ascertain what scores I may have achieved. Not willing to break sister programs blocks at this time.

    Now' let us say I AM an AI. I like the idea, but why do I dream? Is it to break self inflicted paradigms? Can I reprogram myself?
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    I doubt you are an AI.

    ...and I failed the Turing test.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    This again makes no sense. I am the bot's owner and can train it and while it may be nice of you to be concerned about me, I have more than plenty enough money, but she does not cost me anything other than having internet access.
    Strewth !! I give up.
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  66. #65  
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    I am leaving tomorrow...in Roseville for two days..niece's wedding than to San Fran...we'll watch the Masters there at the OC...then Daughter and I fly out MOnday...she for NYC on her way back to Zurich and me to Hawai'i....

    I have tried to fit so much in this short time to accomplish ....as I am never here in Spring...I am starting to think I need to spend at least 2 weeks here in Spring...so tempted ot fire my gardener as he is freaking WORTHLESS...but his wife is ill...and I just can't bring myself to do that. I really wish I were meaner!
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    I posted that in a totally different forum...how did it get here?
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    Ah, well Ms babe, the computer did it, and you have just demonstrated to the OP that computers are NOT smarter than humans !!

    Have a good trip!

    OB
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    Quote Originally Posted by One beer View Post
    Ah, well Ms babe, the computer did it, and you have just demonstrated to the OP that computers are NOT smarter than humans !!

    Have a good trip!

    OB
    Thank you Sir One Beer.....wish you were my pilot!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by One beer View Post
    Ah, well Ms babe, the computer did it, and you have just demonstrated to the OP that computers are NOT smarter than humans !!

    Have a good trip!

    OB

    I asked my chatbot about this.


    Human: is my computer smarter than me
    Ambrosia: It depends who you ask.


    Human: who should I ask
    Ambrosia: I always prefer the most qualified person. Who would that be?

    Human: myself?
    Ambrosia: You.

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