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Thread: proton

  1. #1 proton 
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    like electron it is possible to move the proton?
    if it is, can proton movement (flow of proton) produce current like electron or it liberates some other energy ?


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    In theory, nothing stops you from creating a flow of free protons ( at least through vacuum ), even though I don't really see the point.


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    In many electrolytes (either in electrolysis or, for example, lead-acid batteries) some of the current is carried by hydrogen ions, which are protons.
    Electric current - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    In many electrolytes (either in electrolysis or, for example, lead-acid batteries) some of the current is carried by hydrogen ions, which are protons.
    Electric current - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    You are something else strange! we were having a lovely chat about protons and hydrogen... you claimed hydrogen is not a proton. I asked you to explain, but instead you come here and claim hydrogen is a proton...

    I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that your a misinformation agent because im sure your not. I dont know what to think though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    you claimed hydrogen is not a proton. I asked you to explain, but instead you come here and claim hydrogen is a proton...
    Strange said hydrogen ion, not hydrogen. Hydrogen is not a proton, but a hydrogen ion is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    you claimed hydrogen is not a proton. I asked you to explain, but instead you come here and claim hydrogen is a proton...
    Strange said hydrogen ion, not hydrogen. Hydrogen is not a proton, but a hydrogen ion is.
    An ion is an atom with a charge right? a proton has a positive charge right?

    Please clarify markus. What is a hydrogen ion? how is it differnt from a hydrogen atom? how is it different from a proton? and if you have time, how is it different from a nuetron?

    Also why does it lable a proton as 1H in the CNO cycle diagram?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    you claimed hydrogen is not a proton. I asked you to explain, but instead you come here and claim hydrogen is a proton...
    Strange said hydrogen ion, not hydrogen. Hydrogen is not a proton, but a hydrogen ion is.
    An ion is an atom with a charge right? a proton has a positive charge right?

    Please clarify markus. What is a hydrogen ion? how is it different from a hydrogen atom? how is it different from a proton? and if you have time, how is it different from a neutron?

    Also why does it label a proton as 1H in the CNO cycle diagram?
    A Hydrogen atom consist of one proton and one electron. When you strip off the electron the proton that is left is called a hydrogen ion. In reality it's no longer an atom, because by definition an atom has a nucleus with electrons around it. This only happens with hydrogen as it's the only atom with only one proton and electron.

    A neutron has a slightly higher mass than a proton and carries no charge. In a neutron star the gravity is strong enough to crush the electrons into the nucleus where they combine with the protons and the charges cancel eachother out hence the name neutron star. In reality I'm not sure that a combined proton and electron can be called a true neutron because if you were to remove that matter from the gravity of the neutron star it would most likely become protons and electrons again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    A Hydrogen atom consist of one proton and one electron. When you strip off the electron the proton that is left is called a hydrogen ion. In reality it's no longer an atom, because by definition an atom has a nucleus with electrons around it. This only happens with hydrogen as it's the only atom with only one proton and electron.

    A neutron has a slightly higher mass than a proton and carries no charge. In a neutron star the gravity is strong enough to crush the electrons into the nucleus where they combine with the protons and the charges cancel eachother out hence the name neutron star. In reality I'm not sure that a combined proton and electron can be called a true neutron because if you were to remove that matter from the gravity of the neutron star it would most likely become protons and electrons again.
    So a Hydrogen atom is neutral because the electron counters the positive charge of the single proton? When the eletron is removed the Hydrogen only has a positive charge due to an uneven amount of electrons and protons, so becomes an ion.

    Is a Hydrogen atom a Nuetron?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    So a Hydrogen atom is neutral because the electron counters the positive charge of the single proton? When the eletron is removed the Hydrogen only has a positive charge due to an uneven amount of electrons and protons, so becomes an ion.
    Correct. Any atom can become an ion, either by losing or gaining one or more electrons.

    Is a Hydrogen atom a Nuetron?
    No, a neutron is another particle that, like the proton is found in the nucleus of atoms. So, for example, there is another form (isotope) of hydrogen called 2H or deuterium which has one proton, one neutron and one electron. It is still hydrogen because the chemical nature of an element is determined by the number of electrons (and therefore protons).

    This also answers your other question: the number in 1H or 2H is the "atomic weight" of the atom (the total number of protons and neutrons).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Is a Hydrogen atom a Nuetron?
    No, a neutron is another particle that, like the proton is found in the nucleus of atoms. So, for example, there is another form (isotope) of hydrogen called 2H or deuterium which has one proton, one neutron and one electron. It is still hydrogen because the chemical nature of an element is determined by the number of electrons (and therefore protons).
    But a nuetron isnt exactly another partical if it is formed when two hydrogen ions join and one of them becoming a neutron, both of them forming deuterium or 2H, as seen in the proton proton cycle.

    A deuterium is still Hydrogen because of it has the same amount of electrons, which means an electron has been lost in the process? is the electron lost in the form of a positron and neutrino? if not then how is it lost?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    But a nuetron isnt exactly another partical if it is formed when two hydrogen ions join and one of them becoming a neutron, both of them forming deuterium or 2H, as seen in the proton proton cycle.
    A neutron can turn into a proton by a beta decay; this emits a positron (so the total charge does not change) and a neutrino.

    Note that both protons and neutrons are composite particles made up of three quarks.

    A deuterium is still Hydrogen because of it has the same amount of electrons, which means an electron has been lost in the process?
    I think the electron annihilates with the positron (anti-electron) to create gamma radiation. But this is all a bit outside my area of expertise...
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Is a Hydrogen atom a Nuetron?
    No, a neutron is another particle that, like the proton is found in the nucleus of atoms. So, for example, there is another form (isotope) of hydrogen called 2H or deuterium which has one proton, one neutron and one electron. It is still hydrogen because the chemical nature of an element is determined by the number of electrons (and therefore protons).
    But a nuetron isnt exactly another partical if it is formed when two hydrogen ions join and one of them becoming a neutron, both of them forming deuterium or 2H, as seen in the proton proton cycle.

    A deuterium is still Hydrogen because of it has the same amount of electrons, which means an electron has been lost in the process? is the electron lost in the form of a positron and neutrino? if not then how is it lost?
    I'm not exactly sure how deuterium atoms were formed, but I would guess mostly during the big bang and possibly in stars. But I've never heard of two hydrogen atoms combining to form a deuterium atom, and short of a neutron star I'm not sure how you would go about turning a proton into a neutron. Possibly in a collider, but not to many natural processes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Is a Hydrogen atom a Nuetron?
    No, a neutron is another particle that, like the proton is found in the nucleus of atoms. So, for example, there is another form (isotope) of hydrogen called 2H or deuterium which has one proton, one neutron and one electron. It is still hydrogen because the chemical nature of an element is determined by the number of electrons (and therefore protons).
    But a nuetron isnt exactly another partical if it is formed when two hydrogen ions join and one of them becoming a neutron, both of them forming deuterium or 2H, as seen in the proton proton cycle.

    A deuterium is still Hydrogen because of it has the same amount of electrons, which means an electron has been lost in the process? is the electron lost in the form of a positron and neutrino? if not then how is it lost?
    I'm not exactly sure how deuterium atoms were formed, but I would guess mostly during the big bang and possibly in stars. But I've never heard of two hydrogen atoms combining to form a deuterium atom, and short of a neutron star I'm not sure how you would go about turning a proton into a neutron. Possibly in a collider, but not to many natural processes.
    Well you heard that two protons combing to form a Deuterium atom? A proton is apparently a Hydrogen ion (except not strictly speaking perhaps as chemistry uses the word atom to mean nucleus plus electron, a proton is just the nuclues without the electron from what I can gather).

    Yes this processes apparently go on in supernovea... and is how many of the ellements were made
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    All of the hydrogen and deuterium in the universe was created in the first three minutes after the Big Bang. Neither one is created by stellar nucleosynthesis. Also lithium.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    All of the hydrogen and deuterium in the universe was created in the first three minutes after the Big Bang. Neither one is created by stellar nucleosynthesis. Also lithium.
    Hi Alex

    I found this in Wikipedia.

    Because deuterium is destroyed in the interiors of stars faster than it is produced, and because other natural processes are thought to produce only an insignificant amount of deuterium, it is presently thought that nearly all deuterium found in nature was produced in the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, and that the basic or primordial ratio of hydrogen-1 (protium) to deuterium (about 26 atoms of deuterium per million hydrogen atoms) has its origin from that time. This is the ratio found in the gas giant planets, such as Jupiter. However, different astronomical bodies are found to have different ratios of deuterium to hydrogen-1, and this is thought to be as a result of natural isotope separation processes that occur from solar heating of ices in comets. Like the water-cycle in Earth's weather, such heating processes may enrich deuterium with respect to protium. In fact, the discovery of deuterium/protium ratios in a number of comets very similar to the mean ratio in Earth's oceans (156 atoms of deuterium per million hydrogens) has led to theories that much of Earth's ocean water has a cometary origin.
    I always wondered why they thought earths oceans came from comets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post

    An ion is an atom with a charge right? a proton has a positive charge right?

    Please clarify markus. What is a hydrogen ion? how is it differnt from a hydrogen atom? how is it different from a proton? and if you have time, how is it different from a nuetron?

    Also why does it lable a proton as 1H in the CNO cycle diagram?
    An ion is an atom from which one or more electrons are stripped, i.e. an atom which has more protons than shell electrons, and thus carries overall positive charge. In the case of hydrogen ( which is 1 proton + 1 electron ), if you strip away the only electron, you are left with just a free proton.
    A neutron is a composite particle found in atomic nucleii - it is conceptually similar to a proton, but with a slightly different mass, and with no electric charge ( hence the name neutron ).

    So a Hydrogen atom is neutral because the electron counters the positive charge of the single proton? When the eletron is removed the Hydrogen only has a positive charge due to an uneven amount of electrons and protons, so becomes an ion.
    Yes, this is essentially correct.

    Is a Hydrogen atom a Nuetron?
    No. A neutron, as stated above, is a particle found in atomic nucleii; it is composed of three quarks, and carries no overall electric charge.

    A neutron can turn into a proton by a beta decay; this emits a positron (so the total charge does not change) and a neutrino.
    I don't know if this is right - I think it should go like this ( beta-minus decay ) :

    neutron -> proton + electron + anti-electron-neutrino

    Only in this way are all quantum numbers conserved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    An ion is an atom from which one or more electrons are stripped, i.e. an atom which has more protons than shell electrons, and thus carries overall positive charge. In the case of hydrogen ( which is 1 proton + 1 electron ), if you strip away the only electron, you are left with just a free proton.
    A neutron is a composite particle found in atomic nucleii - it is conceptually similar to a proton, but with a slightly different mass, and with no electric charge ( hence the name neutron )..
    Isnt it possible that an ion may have more electrons than protons also? and thus may carry a negative charge?

    A neutron does seem conceptually simmilar to a proton.... my interpretation of the proton proton diagram is that a neutron was one a proton and can become a proton again. It seems to me that it has slightly more mass than a proton becuase it carries and electron (which decays during beta decay, and leaves a proton).
    If that were true then ofcourse a neutron would be a Hydrogen atom... Which apparently is not true.

    Bassically Marcus I'm trying to get a clear picture of the exact differences between neutrons, protons, hydrogen... it seems to me they are the same bar a certain amount of electrical charge, which may well give them completely unique charitaristics from each other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Is a Hydrogen atom a Nuetron?
    No. A neutron, as stated above, is a particle found in atomic nucleii; it is composed of three quarks, and carries no overall electric charge.
    A proton is also a partical found in an atomic nucleii... sometimes forming the entire nucleii by itself. Add an electron and you have hydrogen... it seems like a proton can change into a neutron or a hydrogen partical...

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    A neutron can turn into a proton by a beta decay; this emits a positron (so the total charge does not change) and a neutrino.
    I don't know if this is right - I think it should go like this ( beta-minus decay ) :

    neutron -> proton + electron + anti-electron-neutrino

    Only in this way are all quantum numbers conserved.
    So a proton + electron = Hydrogen?
    Hydrogen plus an 'anti electron-neutrino'= neutron?

    By anti electron-neutrino, you mean neutrino right? but your pointing out a neutrino is an anti electron? or is an anti electron-neutrino a specific neutrino? just need to make sure I dont misunderstand.

    A neutrino is significantly smaller than an electron isn't it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Isnt it possible that an ion may have more electrons than protons also? and thus may carry a negative charge?
    Correct.

    It seems to me that it has slightly more mass than a proton becuase it carries and electron
    It does not "carry" an electron. It is made up of three quarks. (A proton is made up of three different quarks.)

    If that were true then ofcourse a neutron would be a Hydrogen atom... Which apparently is not true.
    No. Because a hydrogen atom is a proton plus an electron.

    Bassically Marcus I'm trying to get a clear picture of the exact differences between neutrons, protons, hydrogen... it seems to me they are the same bar a certain amount of electrical charge, which may well give them completely unique charitaristics from each other.
    Neutrons and protons are similar. They differ mainly by charge. They are (composite) particles. Hydrogen is an atom containing two particles: a proton and an electron.

    A proton is also a partical found in an atomic nucleii... sometimes forming the entire nucleii by itself. Add an electron and you have hydrogen... it seems like a proton can change into a neutron or a hydrogen partical...
    Hydrogen is not a particle. A proton does not chnage into hydrogen. Hydrogen is an electron "orbiting" a proton.

    So a proton + electron = Hydrogen?
    Hydrogen plus an 'anti electron-neutrino'= neutron?
    You are mixing up the formation of atoms with the decay of neutrons. A hydrogen atom cannot be turned into a neutron.

    By anti electron-neutrino, you mean neutrino right? but your pointing out a neutrino is an anti electron? or is an anti electron-neutrino a specific neutrino? just need to make sure I dont misunderstand.
    There are three types of neutrino (electron, muon and tau). Each of these also has an anti-neutrino.

    A neutrino is significantly smaller than an electron isn't it?
    If smaller means "less massive" then yes. Neutrinos have very close to zero mass.
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    Protons join together and one changes into a neutron?

    Muon and tau are found in protons and neutrons? they in quarks? they resposible for up and down quarks?

    A neutron has no electrons... a proton has no electrons... They cannot merge together without an electron present? Is the electron made in the process of nuclear fusion? is the electron a seperate entity which attaches itself to a proton?

    In the proton proton diagram.... two protons merge to form a deuterium and in the process one proton is changed into a neutron. Is that incorrect? if so, it is a neutron and a proton combining? then why does the diagram show two protons? a deuterium has an electron, where does that come from as neither proton or neutron has an electron, so im told.


    Anybody know?

    :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Protons join together and one changes into a neutron?
    Not automatically, but it can happen through the aforementioned beta decay process.

    Muon and tau are found in protons and neutrons?
    No.

    they in quarks? they resposible for up and down quarks?
    No. All types of neutrinos are elementary particles, just like quarks are. They are not constituents of one another.

    They cannot merge together without an electron present?
    They can't "merge", but they can bind via the strong force, and they don't need an electron for that.

    Is the electron made in the process of nuclear fusion?
    Electrons are emitted in some decay processes, yes.

    is the electron a seperate entity which attaches itself to a proton?
    Yes, it is quite separate, but it doesn't "attach". It is being held in the vicinity of the proton due to electromagnetic forces.

    two protons merge to form a deuterium and in the process one proton is changed into a neutron. Is that incorrect?
    Hydrogen has two stable isotopes - deuterium ( one proton and one neutron ), and protium ( two protons ).

    a deuterium has an electron, where does that come from as neither proton or neutron has an electron, so im told.
    It is being captured through electromagnetic forces.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Protons join together and one changes into a neutron?

    Muon and tau are found in protons and neutrons? they in quarks? they resposible for up and down quarks?

    A neutron has no electrons... a proton has no electrons... They cannot merge together without an electron present? Is the electron made in the process of nuclear fusion? is the electron a seperate entity which attaches itself to a proton?

    In the proton proton diagram.... two protons merge to form a deuterium and in the process one proton is changed into a neutron. Is that incorrect? if so, it is a neutron and a proton combining? then why does the diagram show two protons? a deuterium has an electron, where does that come from as neither proton or neutron has an electron, so im told.


    Anybody know?

    :-)
    Let's start with the proton.

    1. It has less mass than a neutron
    2. It has a positive charge

    For one to change into a neutron it would have to gain mass and lose the positive charge. The only place in nature that I can think of where that happens is a neutron star.

    Now the electron.

    Most likely when the deuterium atom was formed it was a standard ordinary hydrogen atom (that already had an electron) and was somehow combined with a free neutron. If anybody can think of anything else please post it.
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    Thank you Markus.

    You calls it a nuclear bond or force that holds protons and neutrons together... it is the two ups and one down attracted to the two downs and one up of the proton and neutron?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Hydrogen has two stable isotopes - deuterium ( one proton and one neutron ), and protium ( two protons ).
    Not sure how you got two protons for a protium, but that's not correct. A protium is the standard isotope of H (one proton and one electron)
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Not sure how you got two protons for a protium, but that's not correct. A protium is the standard isotope of H (one proton and one electron)
    Yikes, you are right
    I stand corrected, and retract my statement. For some reason I had it in my mind that protium has two protons. Sorry for that mistake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Let's start with the proton.

    1. It has less mass than a neutron
    2. It has a positive charge

    For one to change into a neutron it would have to gain mass and lose the positive charge. The only place in nature that I can think of where that happens is a neutron star.
    Yes where electrons are taken on to neutralise the positive charge and add mass...?

    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Now the electron.

    Most likely when the deuterium atom was formed it was a standard ordinary hydrogen atom (that already had an electron) and was somehow combined with a free neutron. If anybody can think of anything else please post it.
    A neutron is neutral a Hygrogen atom is neutral... The only bond could be a covalent one using the single electron.. right?

    According to the proton proton cycle it appears to be two protons fusing to form a deuterium of one proton, one neutron and one electron. (if I keep repeating stuff thats been explained forgive its a steep learning curve)

    Things like protons neutrons electrons dont seem to be in the periodic table.... Whats the table for ellements that are smaller than hydrogen? anybody know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Not sure how you got two protons for a protium, but that's not correct. A protium is the standard isotope of H (one proton and one electron)
    Yikes, you are right
    I stand corrected, and retract my statement. For some reason I had it in my mind that protium has two protons. Sorry for that mistake.
    Crikey Markus its hard enough already!
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    A neutron is neutral a Hygrogen atom is neutral... The only bond could be a covalent one using the single electron.. right?
    Covalent bonds are formed between atoms (in molecules) they have nothing to do with protons, or what holds an electron in an atom.

    Things like protons neutrons electrons dont seem to be in the periodic table....
    That is because they are not elements.

    Whats the table for ellements that are smaller than hydrogen? anybody know?
    Wikipedia has a nice table: Elementary particle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    A neutron is neutral a Hygrogen atom is neutral... The only bond could be a covalent one using the single electron.. right?
    Covalent bonds are formed between atoms (in molecules) they have nothing to do with protons, or what holds an electron in an atom.
    Is a deuterium a mollecule?

    Is 3He a mollecule?

    Is Helium 4 a mollecule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Things like protons neutrons electrons dont seem to be in the periodic table....
    That is because they are not elements.
    But they are ellementary particals... ellements of the ellements that matter is made up from.... why does it have to be made so complicated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Whats the table for ellements that are smaller than hydrogen? anybody know?
    Wikipedia has a nice table: Elementary particle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Ah yes I've seen this before... Do you know where I could learn what the symbols, which represent the qualities of the ellementary particals, mean?

    Its just so mind blowing, it's difficult to get a clear picture of whats going on with the relations between all the different types of matter and forces...

    I read about hydrogen and helium being made in the stars... but how all this forces and ellementary particals supposed to be formed? all from the big bang?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Is a deuterium a mollecule?

    Is 3He a mollecule?

    Is Helium 4 a mollecule?
    They are all atoms. Helium only occurs as atoms (as a gas) because it does not react with anything. Hydrogen is normally found (as a gas) as molecules of two hydrogen atoms (H2) or in other compounds (e.g. water).

    But they are ellementary particals... ellements of the ellements that matter is made up from.... why does it have to be made so complicated?
    It isn't made complicated.

    Elementary just means basic or fundamental. So the basic chemicals are the chemical elements: they are the ones listed in the periodic table. All other chemicals are made from combinations of these.

    The elementary particles are what everything is made of (including atoms, as we have learnt).


    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Ah yes I've seen this before... Do you know where I could learn what the symbols, which represent the qualities of the ellementary particals, mean?
    Which symbols? I thought they were all either described or referenced in that article.

    I read about hydrogen and helium being made in the stars... but how all this forces and ellementary particals supposed to be formed? all from the big bang?
    Hydrogen and helium (and some lithium) was almost exclusively formed in the big bang. All heavier elements were made in stars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post

    Is a deuterium a molecule?

    Is 3He a molecule?

    Is Helium 4 a molecule?



    But they are elementary particles... elements of the elements that matter is made up from.... why does it have to be made so complicated?
    The number of protons in any atom determines what element it is. If the number of electrons in any atom differs from the number of protons, you have an ion. If the number of neutrons differs from what is normal for that atom (there are frequently more neutrons than protons in an atom) this difference gets more pronounced as the elements get heavier. But when you have more or less neutrons than what is normal, it's called an isotope. Some isotopes are stable, but as the number of neutrons increases above the norm the more likely the atom will become unstable (radioactive).

    It would help a great deal if you had the basics in physics and chemistry for this conversation. These science forums get kind of tedious when the person asking the questions knows next to nothing about the subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Is a deuterium a mollecule?

    Is 3He a mollecule?

    Is Helium 4 a mollecule?
    They are all atoms. Helium only occurs as atoms (as a gas) because it does not react with anything. Hydrogen is normally found (as a gas) as molecules of two hydrogen atoms (H2) or in other compounds (e.g. water).
    It cryptic... but im thinking you said deuterium ([sup2[/sup]H) is a mollecule... i forgot why I asked after all that. Oh yes, if it is a mollecule then it is possible that it is bonded by a covalent bond is it? or can it only bond with other mollecules through a covalent bond?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    It isn't made complicated.

    Elementary just means basic or fundamental. So the basic chemicals are the chemical elements: they are the ones listed in the periodic table. All other chemicals are made from combinations of these.
    Chemical ellements are basic atoms (though they are not really atoms, they are divisable) they are all made from protons and nuetrons which are not included in the periodic table. Prtons and neutrons are not atoms or ellementary particals. Ellementary particals leptons and quarks go into making protons and neutrons. Also among the ellementary particals are guons, photons w bosons and x bosons which are and are not particals associated with the four fundamental forces... except there is nothing on the ellementary partical table to relate with the force of gravity. Another chart on the wiki page states talks of gravitons...
    Where are gravitons on the ellementary partical table?
    Why don't protons and neutrons fit onto either periodic or ellementary partical table?
    Do they have their own table?
    Why is the periodic table so called?

    'Chemicals' are atoms, all ellementary atoms are on the periodic table, larger chemicals are not on the periodic table. All chemicals are made up from the same protons and neutrons, which are made from ellemantary particals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Ah yes I've seen this before... Do you know where I could learn what the symbols, which represent the qualities of the ellementary particals, mean?
    Which symbols? I thought they were all either described or referenced in that article.[/QUOTE]

    where does it tell us what MeV/c2... GeV/c2 and eV/c2?

    Also it doent explain the units for spin or charge... or does it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    It cryptic... but im thinking you said deuterium ([sup2[/sup]H) is a mollecule...
    Dueterium is an element, it is [an isotope of] hydrogen. It can exist as atoms, as molecules (of two atoms) or in compounds (e.g. water).

    i forgot why I asked after all that. Oh yes, if it is a mollecule then it is possible that it is bonded by a covalent bond is it? or can it only bond with other mollecules through a covalent bond?
    When it exists as a molecule (please note the spelling) of H2 then, yes, it is a covalent bond that holds the two atoms together.

    Chemical ellements are basic atoms (though they are not really atoms, they are divisable) they are all made from protons and nuetrons which are not included in the periodic table. Prtons and neutrons are not atoms or ellementary particals. Ellementary particals leptons and quarks go into making protons and neutrons. Also among the ellementary particals are guons, photons w bosons and x bosons which are and are not particals associated with the four fundamental forces...
    Yep. That all sounds about right. Well done.

    except there is nothing on the ellementary partical table to relate with the force of gravity. Another chart on the wiki page states talks of gravitons...
    Where are gravitons on the ellementary partical table?
    We don't currently have a theory that manages to combine gravity with quantum physics so the graviton is just hypothetical/speculation currently. We know some of the characteristics a graviton would have if it exists. But that is about it at the moment.

    Why don't protons and neutrons fit onto either periodic or ellementary partical table? Do they have their own table?
    They are hadrons, particles made of quarks. There may be another "handy table" of such composite particles somewhere but I can't think of one off the top of my head. It rapidly starts getting very complicated....

    Why is the periodic table so called?
    Because it is periodic

    As you go across the rows, the chemical and physical properties change then you start again in the next row. All the elements in each column are broadly similar. People were sceptical about the table when Mendeleev first came up with it, but he was able to predict the properties of a number of unknown elements. When they were discovered and found to match his predictions people were generally rather impressed.

    'Chemicals' are atoms, all ellementary atoms are on the periodic table, larger chemicals are not on the periodic table. All chemicals are made up from the same protons and neutrons, which are made from ellemantary particals.
    Almost. All chemicals are made of atoms. Some (most) chemicals are compounds made up of several different atoms/elements. For example water is molecules made of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom.

    where does it tell us what MeV/c2... GeV/c2 and eV/c2?
    eV stands for electron-volt and is a measure of energy (and therefore mass when divided by c2). M is mega (million) and G is giga (or billion).

    Also it doent explain the units for spin or charge... or does it?
    Spin is just multiples of +/- 1/2. (And please don't think of "spin" as rotation, it is just an intrinsic attribute of particles).

    Charge is given as multiples of the electron charge.
    Last edited by Strange; October 29th, 2012 at 06:37 PM. Reason: speeling
    question for you likes this.
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    Whats the difference between an atom of H2 and a molecule of H2? The bond?

    Apart from that all is understood I think... at least all the names are understood, how they work and how they came to be is another matter. (no pun intended)

    We'r still a long way from really understanding this stuff arent we? I mean it's still very mysterious isnt it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Whats the difference between an atom of H2 and a molecule of H2? The bond?
    An atom would be just H. A molecule is two atoms joined together (by a covalent bond), which is what the "2" means in H2.

    We'r still a long way from really understanding this stuff arent we? I mean it's still very mysterious isnt it.
    Not really, no. There are, of course, always new things to learn but I don't think there are any great mysteries here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    An atom would be just H. A molecule is two atoms joined together (by a covalent bond), which is what the "2" means in H2.
    For some reason I seem to have thought you said H2 exists as an atom and a molecule, my mistake.
    H2 is a covalently bonded molecule. Deuterium is a covalently bonded molecule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    We'r still a long way from really understanding this stuff arent we? I mean it's still very mysterious isnt it.
    Not really, no. There are, of course, always new things to learn but I don't think there are any great mysteries here.
    You probably don't think there are any great mysteries in many place do ya?

    The graviton is still a mystery.
    I heard that when the break down ellementary particals such as quarks presumably, they find a load more 'stuff', is that anywhere near the truth?

    What did the smash up in the hadron collider? Hadrons! which is protons and neutrons I think. Is the stuff in the ellementary partical table all that has been found in the collider so far? or have they found so much stuff than they havn't been able to study and catalogue it all yet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    H2 is a covalently bonded molecule. Deuterium is a covalently bonded molecule.
    Deuterium is just another form of hydrogen So, like any other isotope of hydrogen, it exists as either atoms (probably only in deep space), as H2 (OK, strictly, 2H2) molecules of two atoms or in compounds (e.g. water, H2O).

    You probably don't think there are any great mysteries in many place do ya?
    Oh no. There are lots: why there is more matter than antimatter, how are we going to unify relativity and quantum physics, what is dark matter, what is the 130GeV signal spotted from the center of the galaxy, what is dark energy, has the LHC spotted something new, ...

    I heard that when the break down ellementary particals such as quarks presumably, they find a load more 'stuff', is that anywhere near the truth?
    As far as we know, quarks (and electrons and neitrinos, etc) are fundamental. They can't be broken down further. But hey, who knows.

    What did the smash up in the hadron collider? Hadrons! which is protons and neutrons I think.
    Mainly protons against protons. Also protons against lead, I think.

    Is the stuff in the ellementary partical table all that has been found in the collider so far? or have they found so much stuff than they havn't been able to study and catalogue it all yet?
    They haven't yet found anything that isn't explained by the standard model (as far as I know). But they have masses of data to process and years to run so hopefully they will find something new and unexpected. It would be a bit boring if the just continue to confirm what we already know (but obviously very valuable).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Why is the periodic table so called?
    Because it is periodic

    As you go across the rows, the chemical and physical properties change then you start again in the next row. All the elements in each column are broadly similar. People were sceptical about the table when Mendeleev first came up with it, but he was able to predict the properties of a number of unknown elements. When they were discovered and found to match his predictions people were generally rather impressed.
    How Mendeleev completed the table: Tetris! - Cheezburger
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    I heard that when the break down ellementary particals such as quarks presumably, they find a load more 'stuff', is that anywhere near the truth?
    What you are referring to is the preon model. However, so far as I know that model has some serious problems, and in any case there seems to be no experimental evidence at all to indicate that quarks and electrons have any kind of internal structure.
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    How amusing!
    I bet tetris was somehow inspired by the periodic table.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    What you are referring to is the preon model. However, so far as I know that model has some serious problems, and in any case there seems to be no experimental evidence at all to indicate that quarks and electrons have any kind of internal structure.
    I managed to glean that Rhison is a hebrew word meaning 'Primary' and each quark is supposed to be made from a rhison... is this theory? if not, why don't they add it to a table? if so, a theoretical table hehee.

    I think harari's model calls them rhisons, but fredericksson more recently has call them all preons? dipreons. Is that correct? and it's all completely theoretical as far as we know?

    I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you guys for your patience and effort.

    Now can we move on to atomic explosions please....

    One atomic bomb I heard of is the Hydrogen bomb... presumably this is a simple 1H? Is the explosion created by splitting the electron from the atom?

    What are some of the other types/methods of atomic explosion?

    Dont worry, I have neither the time, money nor to ever make use of this information.
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    Each quark is not made from A rhison (or preon)... typo. Made from combinations of rhison.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Now can we move on to atomic explosions please....
    I would rather discuss the peaceful uses of nuclear power

    One atomic bomb I heard of is the Hydrogen bomb... presumably this is a simple 1H? Is the explosion created by splitting the electron from the atom?
    This is a fusion bomb, like the much researched but still 50 years away fusion reactor.

    It works by combining hydrogen atoms to create helium (and possibly some heavier atoms). For reasons that I can't possibly explain, it requires less energy to hold the nucleus of a helium atom together than it does a hydrogen atom. So when you fuse two hydrogen atoms to create helium it releases energy. A tiny amount of energy per atom but there are a lot of atoms.

    Fusion actually uses deuterium and/or tritium rather than hydrogen (because helium has neutrons in the nucleus). This is done by raising the hydrogen to extremely high temperature and pressure; this causes the atoms to collide with enough energy to cause fusion.

    What are some of the other types/methods of atomic explosion?
    The other source of nuclear energy is fission. Very heavy atoms (e.g. uranium) have more energy holding their atoms together than lighter ones. So when an unstable/radioactive isotope of uranium decays it releases energy.
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    [QUOTE=Strange;362617]
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Now can we move on to atomic explosions please....
    I would rather discuss the peaceful uses of nuclear power QUOTE]

    And when we do learn a bit about how nuclear power is generated, it seems less scary to be tampering with it, kinda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    It works by combining hydrogen atoms to create helium (and possibly some heavier atoms). For reasons that I can't possibly explain, it requires less energy to hold the nucleus of a helium atom together than it does a hydrogen atom. So when you fuse two hydrogen atoms to create helium it releases energy..
    Allow me to speculate... as im practically a qualified nuclear technician now.

    Firstly I think, dueterium is turned into He3... which has two protons and one neutron with one electron (or is it two).
    Anyway, when Helium 3 bonds to helium 3, He4 + 1H + 1H is made... There is no indication on the proton proton diagram as to any waste energy from the fusion. The only waste energy I can see is when two protons merge and form a dueterium.
    Can deuterium be fused to make helium directly?

    Oh I give up, I don't know where the waste energy comes from... But I do know helium 4 is very stable because it has two protons, two neutrons and two electrons... which creates a strong, stable bond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    What are some of the other types/methods of atomic explosion?
    The other source of nuclear energy is fission. Very heavy atoms (e.g. uranium) have more energy holding their atoms together than lighter ones. So when an unstable/radioactive isotope of uranium decays it releases energy.
    In the case of a bomb.... is it a chain reaction of decay? what triggers the reaction?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Allow me to speculate... as im practically a qualified nuclear technician now.
    Well, you probably know nearly as much as me! (I have the slight advantage that I have enough background to read and understand new material fairly quickly.)

    Firstly I think, dueterium is turned into He3... which has two protons and one neutron with one electron (or is it two).
    Anyway, when Helium 3 bonds to helium 3, He4 + 1H + 1H is made... There is no indication on the proton proton diagram as to any waste energy from the fusion. The only waste energy I can see is when two protons merge and form a dueterium.
    You can see two sources of energy in those diagrams. ne is the emission of a positron (anti-electron). This will annihilate with an electron and generate gamma radiation. There is also another step that releases gamma radiation directly. This will, at some point be absorbed and converted to heat. There is also the kinetic energy given to the particles as a result of the reaction, this will increase the temperature directly.

    Can deuterium be fused to make helium directly?
    Not sure. I suspect not, but I don't know.

    In the case of a bomb.... is it a chain reaction of decay? what triggers the reaction?
    That's right. The splitting of an atom can triggered by it absorbing a neutron. This releases two neutrons (I think) which can then go and trigger more atoms to split. If you have more than what is called the "critical mass" of material it will spontaneously explode. The trick in a bomb is to have several lumps below critical mass and then bash them together to end up with one lump over the critical mass. Like this ... <boom>
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Firstly I think, dueterium is turned into He3... which has two protons and one neutron with one electron (or is it two).
    Anyway, when Helium 3 bonds to helium 3, He4 + 1H + 1H is made... There is no indication on the proton proton diagram as to any waste energy from the fusion. The only waste energy I can see is when two protons merge and form a dueterium.
    You can see two sources of energy in those diagrams. ne is the emission of a positron (anti-electron). This will annihilate with an electron and generate gamma radiation. There is also another step that releases gamma radiation directly. This will, at some point be absorbed and converted to heat. There is also the kinetic energy given to the particles as a result of the reaction, this will increase the temperature directly.
    According to the proton proton cycle positron and netrino is emmited when protons change to deuterium... and gamma is released when proton and deuterium makes H3... but there is no indication of energy released during the H3+H3=H4+1H+1H... which is what I meant.

    So in the over all process, yes positrons, neutrinos and gamma is released.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    In the case of a bomb.... is it a chain reaction of decay? what triggers the reaction?
    That's right. The splitting of an atom can triggered by it absorbing a neutron. This releases two neutrons (I think) which can then go and trigger more atoms to split. If you have more than what is called the "critical mass" of material it will spontaneously explode. The trick in a bomb is to have several lumps below critical mass and then bash them together to end up with one lump over the critical mass. Like this ... <boom>
    Ok so the extra neutron (could it not be proton as illustrated in the CNO and PP cylcles?) makes an unstable mollecule that almost instantly reacts and sets off a very fast chain reaction. Got ya.

    Critical mass.... Show off! This must mean its unstable and about to release a neutron? quick explaination on critical mass would be good.

    Surely it goes a little something like this <BOOM>BOOOM<BOOM> which effectively sounds like <BOOM> ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Ok so the extra neutron (could it not be proton as illustrated in the CNO and PP cylcles?) makes an unstable mollecule that almost instantly reacts and sets off a very fast chain reaction. Got ya.

    Critical mass.... Show off! This must mean its unstable and about to release a neutron? quick explaination on critical mass would be good.

    Surely it goes a little something like this <BOOM>BOOOM<BOOM> which effectively sounds like <BOOM> ?
    I don't have any more time at the moment, but there is more info (and a diagram - I know you like those) here: Nuclear chain reaction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I don't have any more time at the moment, but there is more info (and a diagram - I know you like those) here: Nuclear chain reaction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Oh yes strange, its all about the pictures!
    The truest intelligence at work, the deepest understanding, is expressed in images, rather in words. Works are just their to help communicate the images. Ah so.

    Thank you.. will give it a look up. Thanks for your time
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