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Thread: Would dropping a radio in a bathtub kill you?

  1. #1 Would dropping a radio in a bathtub kill you? 
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    DISCLAIMER: DO NOT try this at home!

    We have all seen it 1000 times in the movies and tv. Someone is bathing in a bathtub, and the villian drops an electrical appliance into the tub. The result: Large electrical arcs spew from their body with lots of sparks, convulsions and smoke...and one dead starlet. Sometimes they go so far as to use battery operated devices, or a swimming pool.
    My friends and I had a recent debate about this, and I was hoping to get y'all's opinion.
    I'm an electronic technician, and have at least a medium knowledge of electricity. It is my contention that submerging any standard 120VAC device (excluding devices that use a step-up transformer, like a t.v.) in a bathtub would not kill you, but at best just give you a mild shock. I have been shocked by 120v countless times, and have never been burned or hurt. Here's how I came to this conclusion:

    -Electricity follows the path of least resistance. In most devices, where the power cord attaches to the board, the distance between the hot and neutral wires is only a few mm. Seems to me, most of the current would just jump from one terminal to another. Only a portion of the actual voltage would energize the water, looking for another path to ground.

    -Water does not conduct electricity as well as the movies would like you think. The resistance of the water would cause a voltage drop...plus your skin has resistance also. 120v is not enough potential to overcome this to a lethal level. (unless you have a heart condition or pace maker)

    -Floating in a bathtub, your not grounded (unless your touching the drain or spout) so there's no path to ground. Most bathtubs are covered in enamel or plastic so there's nowhere for the juice to go.

    I could be totally wrong about this...I mean, why would they make GFI outlets mandatory in bathrooms? I would greatly appreciate your opinion about this.


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    It would probably have to be DC (and high voltage) to kill. Battery operated probably wouldn't kill. Also, it would seem from my knowledge of capacitors that it would just jump from wire to wire. The object would obviously short out.

    I don't think it would kill. Maybe higher voltages, DC outlet and such might create a plausible scenario, but I don't want to go into extensive testing on this.


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    I don't think it would kill. Maybe higher voltages, DC outlet and such might create a plausible scenario, but I don't want to go into extensive testing on this.
    Without a GFI, it most certainly can kill you.

    The short draws a lagre current, enough to put a significant amount of amperage across the water to your body. The electricity flows mostly around, but some goes through your body, across your heart, and to the drain.
    I'm not entirely sure if it is a requirement to be touching the drain or not.
    A good question, indeed.

    It takes a mere 6 millivolts to stop that beautiful red beating member of the circulatory system.

    What's a DC outlet, by the way?
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    You have also ignored the fact that in many parts of the world the standard voltage is 220/240. That does pack much more of a whallop and is one of the reasons that UK power plugs are solidly built in comparison with the novelty store versions used in the US.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    You have also ignored the fact that in many parts of the world the standard voltage is 220/240. That does pack much more of a whallop and is one of the reasons that UK power plugs are solidly built in comparison with the novelty store versions used in the US.

    You guys have power now!?
    Holy Christ, I could have sworn you guys were still using torch lamps and tree sap last time I was in Edinburgh.
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    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    Good point, O

    I used to design tanning beds for sale overseas, and I had to build a power supply to output 220 vac /50 hz @ 60A. ( it was huge)

    That's why I specified 120v vs. 220v. I've been bit by 220 and it was NO fun. 220v is a whole different story. THAT might actually kill you.

    Cave, you talked about a short...but it wouldn't be a direct short since the water would provide some resistance.

    Let's say for sake of example, we're dealing with a 120v circuit, with no GFI or earth ground, on a 10 amp breaker.
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    Cave, you talked about a short...but it wouldn't be a direct short since the water would provide some resistance.
    Can we ohm out water?


    Let's say for sake of example, we're dealing with a 120v circuit, with no GFI or earth ground, on a 10 amp breaker.
    1. I have little doubt that this would have the potential to kill a human being.
    2. The breaker probably wouldn't trip in time.
    3. It takes 1/1667 of the breakers max rating across your heart to send you permanent swimming. So unless the combined resistance of your body and the water is less than 20,000 ohms or so, you're screwed.
    Of course, testing the scenario is the only way to be completely accurate.
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    It is now several decades since powerpoints in the bathroom (other than for electric razors, with a unique plug/socket type) were outlawed in the UK. Conventional light switches are also illegal. All electrical items must be switched by cord pull.
    The reason for this was the number of deaths each year of people who either had a radio fall into the bath, or who switched the light on while standing in the bath.
    In short, we have already carried out the experiment in the UK. The results were unsatisfactory from a survival perspective. :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveatLector
    Can we ohm out water?
    I just used my multimeter to test the resistance of a small container of water, but I was not able to get a stable reading, I got anywhere from 20K to 100k ohms of resistance..but those readings are not anything I would hang my hat on. According to wikipedia, pure water doesn't conduct at all...it's the dissolved impurities that conduct, so how pure the water is out of your tap determines the resistance. If anyone can find a more definite answer, that would be appreciated. I've heard that clean, dry skin has a resistance of about 33kohms, but once again that is not definate.
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    It was funny, I was watching a CSI episode once and some woman got killed by tossing some kind of heater in to a hot tub. Well the stupid part of the show was that it was plugged in to a GFI outlet. They didn't even try to hide that fact or explain it away as malfunctioning..etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (In)Sanity
    It was funny, I was watching a CSI episode once and some woman got killed by tossing some kind of heater in to a hot tub. Well the stupid part of the show was that it was plugged in to a GFI outlet. They didn't even try to hide that fact or explain it away as malfunctioning..etc.
    I once watched a CSI episode where a person was electrocuted by a standard 12 volt car battery that had been attatched to a flag pole. The flag pole was hanging out horizontally above a doorway. A person jumped up and grabbed the flag pole (with his feet completely off the ground!) and was killed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by (In)Sanity
    It was funny, I was watching a CSI episode once and some woman got killed by tossing some kind of heater in to a hot tub. Well the stupid part of the show was that it was plugged in to a GFI outlet. They didn't even try to hide that fact or explain it away as malfunctioning..etc.
    I once watched a CSI episode where a person was electrocuted by a standard 12 volt car battery that had been attatched to a flag pole. The flag pole was hanging out horizontally above a doorway. A person jumped up and grabbed the flag pole (with his feet completely off the ground!) and was killed.
    Ok, major LOL on that one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveatLector
    Can we ohm out water?
    I just used my multimeter to test the resistance of a small container of water, but I was not able to get a stable reading, I got anywhere from 20K to 100k ohms of resistance..but those readings are not anything I would hang my hat on. According to wikipedia, pure water doesn't conduct at all...it's the dissolved impurities that conduct, so how pure the water is out of your tap determines the resistance. If anyone can find a more definite answer, that would be appreciated. I've heard that clean, dry skin has a resistance of about 33kohms, but once again that is not definate.
    There certainly are numerous variables. I'm positive it doesn't kill every time, but I think the overall question has been answered, in an acutely reasonable fashion, by Ophiolite and I myself.

    Would dropping a radio in a bathtub kill you?

    Generally, yes.
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  15. #14  
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    cave,

    I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

    I don't believe with 120 you would die.....maybe with greater voltage..like 240...but as many times as I have received a shock with 120 directly....I don't see how it can kill you. I guess we can agree to be disagreed.

    Mac
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    You have also ignored the fact that in many parts of the world the standard voltage is 220/240. That does pack much more of a whallop and is one of the reasons that UK power plugs are solidly built in comparison with the novelty store versions used in the US.
    The UK? You are ignoring the rest of the world also has much much much (I could go on forever like this) better plugs than the North America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
    cave,

    I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

    I don't believe with 120 you would die.....maybe with greater voltage..like 240...but as many times as I have received a shock with 120 directly....I don't see how it can kill you. I guess we can agree to be disagreed.

    Mac
    Your 'dry' hand to hand resistance could be anywhere from 27-500K ohms
    at 500K casual contact 120volt well it would hardly tickle you.

    Now sit in a bath for 20 minutes then measure yout skin resistance - not point contact BUT over a large area of your body, since you now have multiple pathways the resistance drops dramatically I am pretty certain it can be as low as an incredible 50 ohms - now if you happen to be in the bath in between the item dropped in and the 'waste' which may be earthed it IS possible for you to fry. - As a gruesome example of this Electrocution of people is done over a wide contact area with a highly conductive gel which actually 'seeps' into the skin to make it a far more shocking experience - and of course DON'T FRY THIS AT HOME!.

    It can take as little as 9V DC to kill someone - I will not elaborate on this.
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    The radio would wave to fall onto your heart for there to be any chance of it killing you. You would have to be a straight line between the radio and ground and seeing as people are not much more conductive than water, the total current flow would be too low due to the relatively high resistance of water. Even if all of it went through your heart, it woul not kill you.
    Every british physicit I know scoffs when films depict people dying this way and we only have 240V.
    I dab wires to see if they're live.

    YOU DON'T WANNA MESS WITH DC THOUGH !!!!

    IF YOU RECTIFY BRITISH MAINS, YOU GET 350 DC and it sticks to you like poo to a blaket. Cost me a finger !!!
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    Good lord people. I'm not sure about all these physicits you folks "know," but if they deny this, they're fooling themselves.

    Even the CSPC admits it happens.

    According to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), the hair dryer does not protect consumers against the possibility of electrocution should the product fall into a water-filled sink or bathtub while the switch is in the "off" position. CPSC estimates that 17 people -- 10 of whom are children under 10 years of age -- are electrocuted each year in similar accidents involving hand-held hair dryers. The agency said the recall is part of its continuing effort to reduce risk of electrocution and injury with electrical products around the home.
    CPSC.GOV


    I have seen this tested and confirmed. The current across you heart is well over the 6 milliamps required to kill you.
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    As I have said I have no doubt that electricity kills - and far more easily if your skin is wet, or you are perspiring (sweat contains salt and salt is a pretty good conductor).

    Do a little bit of research on what people who have been struck by lightning were wearing at the time. If they were wearing lots of clothes where the outside was wet, but they were dry 'inside' and were wearing a hat - they probably survived, the current going down the wet outside and taking the path of least resistance. Of course they would have felt some of the shock and been burned but they survived. - Contrast that with sportsmen/women wearing few clothes - result a much Higher death rate.


    When you are wet in the bath the contact area is greatly increased as is the current.
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    Excellent points.

    Along with a much larger contact area, what would you say to the makeup of the bathtub having some effect, or more specifically, the drain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveatLector
    Excellent points.

    Along with a much larger contact area, what would you say to the makeup of the bathtub having some effect, or more specifically, the drain.
    If the drain is earthed it will make tings worse, if the whole bath, taps and pies are 'isolated' then there is less chance of death occuring BUT it is still a possibility.
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    So what's the least amount of electricity required to kill a healthy adult? I've heard there enough in a lithium ion battery (one of those small coin shaped ones) to stop a heart.
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    Yes, remember the nerve signals in the body operate at a few millivolts the currents are believed to be extremely tiny. If you take a pp3 battery and touch the terminals you will feel no pain - now put your tounge across the teminals! ouch!.

    If you did the same thing below the skin, directly to the nerves the effect would be even more marked.

    I have heard it can be from as little as a lithium battery up to 12 volts.
    As to the actual value - nobody has either admitted to conducting the research or published any real data.... :wink:

    There can be no real benefit to such research if conducted on animals as it will not be representative. Any value you come across will therefore be speculative. At the end of the day it is down to how much current not voltage. I have received electric shocks up to 35,000 volts but, because the available current was only a few microamps it was not serious.

    I have spent my Entire working life in Electronics & Mechanics, DO NOT
    play with electricity - As we say in the trade, "You can't see it, hear it, or smell it, it can move at the speed of light, don't let it bite"

    I am afraid of it, that is why I am still here, I have a healthy respect for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Yes, remember the nerve signals in the body operate at a few millivolts the currents are believed to be extremely tiny. If you take a pp3 battery and touch the terminals you will feel no pain - now put your tounge across the teminals! ouch!.

    If you did the same thing below the skin, directly to the nerves the effect would be even more marked.

    I have heard it can be from as little as a lithium battery up to 12 volts.
    As to the actual value - nobody has either admitted to conducting the research or published any real data.... :wink:

    There can be no real benefit to such research if conducted on animals as it will not be representative. Any value you come across will therefore be speculative. At the end of the day it is down to how much current not voltage. I have received electric shocks up to 35,000 volts but, because the available current was only a few microamps it was not serious.

    I have spent my Entire working life in Electronics & Mechanics, DO NOT
    play with electricity - As we say in the trade, "You can't see it, hear it, or smell it, it can move at the speed of light, don't let it bite"

    I am afraid of it, that is why I am still here, I have a healthy respect for it.
    Steve Irwin was not afraid of a stingray.
    I confirm your point about the biological effects of electricity within the body.

    Now a question of safety : does a microdifferential of 30 milli Amp is sufficiant to protect your bathroom ?
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    Your last point I will answer by PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
    Good point, O

    I used to design tanning beds for sale overseas, and I had to build a power supply to output 220 vac /50 hz @ 60A. ( it was huge)

    That's why I specified 120v vs. 220v. I've been bit by 220 and it was NO fun. 220v is a whole different story. THAT might actually kill you.

    Cave, you talked about a short...but it wouldn't be a direct short since the water would provide some resistance.

    Let's say for sake of example, we're dealing with a 120v circuit, with no GFI or earth ground, on a 10 amp breaker.
    when I was a lad of about 7 or 8, i had a fascination with electrical things, building circuits and stuff. My mum and dad always told me how dangerous the 240v was - but one day I had to try it for myself.

    I was lying on my bedroom floor with the end of a kettle lead plugged in and switched on, and i put a wire into the end and flicked it with my finger. Nothing happened. So i put a wire in the other terminal, and ....a split second later I was half way across the room. I havn't felt the need to try it since.

    Now that im older, i guess i was lucky to be lying on the floor and resting on my elbows.
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    Mark you have shaken the memory and out has popped the following...

    At the age of about 3 I had watched my father re-wire the house, I had seen him cut many pieces of cable with a pair of 'side cutters'. One day I found this pair of cutters and decided it was my turn. Dad had 'surface mounted' the cables and I chose a 30Amp power ring main as my objective. The jaws closed in through the insulation and then I saw it. It was huge, it was orange and very very bright, it was loud!
    I was present at the big bang!. My dad presented me with the Side-cutters when I was 10 or 12 - I still have them somewhere minus a small amount of matter from the tips of both jaws.
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    I used to get occasional 450vdc shocks were i used to work without any problem because the current was low. Same with static electricity you can get thousands of volts from clothing but the current is very low also

    The lethal dosage is 60mA across the heart, im pretty sure you could get this in a bath, especially if bath salts were added
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    You'll be alright Caveman, not something you need worry about for another 100,000 years or so... 8)
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    Well, I got what I wanted...Mythbusters did a show on this very subject tonight. I didn't get to see it, but my friend told me about it. I was totally wrong. Apparently it will kill you...especially if you drop something in that has a heating coil in it. If anyone saw the show, I was hoping you could fill me in with some more details.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
    Well, I got what I wanted...Mythbusters did a show on this very subject tonight. I didn't get to see it, but my friend told me about it. I was totally wrong. Apparently it will kill you...especially if you drop something in that has a heating coil in it. If anyone saw the show, I was hoping you could fill me in with some more details.
    I saw it some time ago, They should have said "DON'T FRY THIS AT HOME"
    They used all sorts of different scenarios, I think they used a manikin with simulated body resistance, and showed that the current path has to flow through the heart. If I remember they set the detector at 60mA anything over this (at the heart) was considered a kill. Cannot remember whether they used a steel or acrylic bath, but it did have an earthed point at the drain, plug-hole or whatever you guys call it over there. They also tried it with and without bubbles, soaps and bath salts. Some of the objects they dropped in were Radio, Curling Tongs, Toaster, and some others I can't recall. Maybe somebody else can fill in some more...
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    Hii,

    About the radio.. Is it using batteries as power supply or the AC power from your home? Most of the radio now is containing a small current DC circuits. So, if it uses batteries, i believe that you will not die, or rather you feel no effects. But, if its powered by AC supply( high voltage ), I think it will be very dangerous, and might kill you. Of course the radio has the AC to DC converter inside, but I am not sure that it is isolated completly.

    For the conductvity of pure water, you might think that pure water really does not conduct electricity. But, it is more precise to say that it is not a good conductor since the conductivity is very small. The same goes for air, vacuum, etc. If you apply super high voltage in a tube conatining certain gas, electrons will jump over.
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    You should be talking about amperes rather than voltage. Have you ever been hit by a car spark? That thing runs at 26000 on old cars and about 58000 to 60000 V on newer cars. I got hit by that several times, nothing happens.

    Current kills, not voltage.
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    not to be a necromancer, but before this dies again.

    I hate to point out to you guys that the electrical resistances of water is actually quite high...

    even in a BEST (or worse, if you are the victim) where one has used numerous bath salts and/ or urinated heavily, directly into the pool the resistance is STILL quite high. In addition VOLTAGE WILL NOT KILL YOU, instead the current has to be 60 mA which would cause the heart to fibrillate and could possible cause a heart attack.

    I suspect there wouldn't be any arcing seeing as the drain (which is linked to ground) is situated in the bottom of the tub.

    Also, there are often safety devices built into most electrical appliances.

    SO.. in conclusion you would require.

    1). a very delicate balance of ionic solids dissolved into the water, enough to allow the current to pass into your body, but not too much so as to allow the current to go around your body.

    2). you would have to be perfectly positioned so as to force the current through your heart. Seeing as most of these shows feature the radio or what have you thrown in near the feet, which are near the faucet, which is often near the drain. this is unlikely that the heart would be hit. (especially seeing as the torso is usually ABOVE THE WATER LINE)

    3). ALL of the safeties would have to be defunct (including the breakers/fuses, the safeties in the outlet, the safeties in the device etc.)

    Given all of those I would actually go so far as to say that, provided you don't have massive bladder problems, or REALLY like bath salts, you don't bathe with your heart sitting directly in the path of the drain OR your house circuits are up to date. you should have no deadly mishaps involving a person and an electrical appliance. infact, you may even bring your radio into the bathroom with you. (note, this may damage your radio. also i take no responsiblility for anyone who actually does this.)

    Gmano.
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    So how do you account for the significant number of deaths of people in baths who have touched a live electrical appliance, or have had one fall in with them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gmano
    ALL of the safeties would have to be defunct (including the breakers/fuses, the safeties in the outlet, the safeties in the device etc.)
    This is not true. An ordinary fuse or circuit breaker will not protect you. The trip current is too high and the time response is too slow. That's why you need a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) in the bathroom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Gmano
    ALL of the safeties would have to be defunct (including the breakers/fuses, the safeties in the outlet, the safeties in the device etc.)
    This is not true. An ordinary fuse or circuit breaker will not protect you. The trip current is too high and the time response is too slow. That's why you need a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) in the bathroom.
    Or an Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker (ELCB) as used in Britain and South Africa? Or better yet; a residual current device with overcurrent protection (RCBO) that combine both? I got all this from Wiki.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Most electrician injuries associated with arcing or shock are secondary, the result of startle reflex. I do a fair amount of live electrical work and how I'll jump is often on my mind. Picture an electrician atop a ladder working on live ceiling fixture with razor-sharp utility knife... and then something just a kiss away goes BANG!

    Radio in the bath scenario, likely cause of death is flipping out of the tub and breaking your neck in the process.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Yes it definitely can kill, even though it's not guaranteed to.

    If I ever actually wanted to kill someone, then tossing a radio, a hairdryer or other such appliance into their bath is not a reliable way of ensuring their death.

    However, most of the time at least, what I want is NOT to kill anybody. And tossing a powered electric appliance into their bath is NOT a reliable way towards my peaceful goal (AVOIDING killing), either.

    The conclusion is don't.
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    Harold i notice you moved a post by William McCormick from here to trash, marking it "off topic". IMHO the bulk of his post was topical, and not a word of it inappropriate to the electrical section.

    On the other hand if you believe it too full of error for salvage, fair enough. I think sometimes I might post a raft of errors myself. I hope I'd be corrected or trashed with clear explanation in that event.

    ***

    Whether the bath drain line is plastic or metal, or chance grounds the (metal or fibreglass?) tub is going to make a huge difference. Builders don't purposely ground tubs.

    I've wondered before if it's safer to ground a tub. I do know of one steel shower with low ceiling potlight that was a deathtrap. What do folks think?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Harold i notice you moved a post by William McCormick from here to trash, marking it "off topic". IMHO the bulk of his post was topical, and not a word of it inappropriate to the electrical section.
    I just reread it in case I missed something. Nothing in there made any sense to me.
    On the other hand if you believe it too full of error for salvage, fair enough. I think sometimes I might post a raft of errors myself. I hope I'd be corrected or trashed with clear explanation in that event.
    William has been corrected many times. Many people have tried to explain things to him. It does no good. He has his pet ideas he will not let go of.

    Whether the bath drain line is plastic or metal, or chance grounds the (metal or fibreglass?) tub is going to make a huge difference. Builders don't purposely ground tubs.

    I've wondered before if it's safer to ground a tub. I do know of one steel shower with low ceiling potlight that was a deathtrap. What do folks think?
    If you install GFCI in the bathroom circuits, there shouldn't be a problem either way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I've wondered before if it's safer to ground a tub.
    If you install GFCI in the bathroom circuits, there shouldn't be a problem either way.
    Accidents shouldn't happen. :wink:

    The code now requires all bathroom lights and outlets on GFCI, from the panel. Yet the last bathroom I did, had an electric heater (no GFCI) and right beside the cast iron tub a closet with water heater (no GFCI). We'd even planned an electric on-demand heater but the power wasn't available. Then one never knows what rats and renovators may do in future, or what dumb clutter of extension cords and coat-hangers occupants get up to.

    So I'm still wondering.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    So I'm still wondering.
    My opinion would be to leave it ungrounded. After all, the reason GFCI is needed at all in the bathroom is the possibility of someone contacting an earth ground (i.e.,plumbing) at the same time as a hot conductor. So if the plumbing is ungrounded, so much the better. It would make it more like the other rooms where GFCI is not required.
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    It's kinda like the debate between power tools with grounded metal case vs. plastic "double insulated" and no ground wire.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    So if the plumbing is ungrounded, so much the better.
    Isn't plumbing grounded almost by definition? I mean, the water comes to your home through underground pipes, and even though the pipes are often made of plastic nowadays, there is likely to be some metal somewhere (pumps, valves etc) in contact with the ground.

    Wherever the water originally comes from (aquifer, lake, river, spring...) is also grounded, and presumably there is a continuous flow of water from there to your tap, unless someone is carrying buckets somewhere in between.

    I have no idea what the resistance of these ground connections might be, but I wouldn't wager my life on any plumbing being ungrounded.
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    In the older version of the US code you could use the water pipes to ground your electrical system. Newer vesions of the code do not permit that, but the plumbing may or may not be grounded. If you have plastic plumbing, it probably would not be well grounded. The water in the pipes is not a particularly good conductor.

    It is not a question of relying on the grounding of the pipes to meet any safety code. The question is, if you have the option, would it be better to ground it or not.

    Electric drills have motors inside. If there is a short from the motor to the metal case, and you are contacting wet earth, then your body could complete a path to ground, Better to have the path to ground completed by the grounding conductor in the extension cord, so the current does not pass through you.

    Bathtubs don't have wires, unless you drop a radio in there. So how could you get zapped in the tub? You are sitting in the tub, a radio falls in, and the water in the tub connects you to an energized conductor. You still haven't gotten zapped until you touch a ground, like say the water faucet or drain, but only if it's grounded.

    The reason you might want to ground the pipes might be in the hopes that the radio will short out to ground when it falls in, and trip the breaker before you touch it.

    All this would only happen if you don't have a GFCI in the circuit as you should.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Electric drills have motors inside. If there is a short from the motor to the metal case, and you are contacting wet earth, then your body could complete a path to ground, Better to have the path to ground completed by the grounding conductor in the extension cord, so the current does not pass through you.
    Yup. Appliance manufacturers have two sensible ways to go: one is ground wire bonded to metal case, the other is a cheaper cord with no ground, and insulating plastic case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Electric drills have motors inside. If there is a short from the motor to the metal case, and you are contacting wet earth, then your body could complete a path to ground, Better to have the path to ground completed by the grounding conductor in the extension cord, so the current does not pass through you.
    Yup. Appliance manufacturers have two sensible ways to go: one is ground wire bonded to metal case, the other is a cheaper cord with no ground, and insulating plastic case.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Yup. Appliance manufacturers have two sensible ways to go: one is ground wire bonded to metal case, the other is a cheaper cord with no ground, and insulating plastic case.
    Of course, there are still some metal parts on the plastic cased drill like the chuck. There must be some method of isolating that from the motor. I wonder how they do that. I've never torn one apart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    In the older version of the US code you could use the water pipes to ground your electrical system. Newer vesions of the code do not permit that, but the plumbing may or may not be grounded. If you have plastic plumbing, it probably would not be well grounded. The water in the pipes is not a particularly good conductor.

    It is not a question of relying on the grounding of the pipes to meet any safety code. The question is, if you have the option, would it be better to ground it or not.

    Electric drills have motors inside. If there is a short from the motor to the metal case, and you are contacting wet earth, then your body could complete a path to ground, Better to have the path to ground completed by the grounding conductor in the extension cord, so the current does not pass through you.

    Bathtubs don't have wires, unless you drop a radio in there. So how could you get zapped in the tub? You are sitting in the tub, a radio falls in, and the water in the tub connects you to an energized conductor. You still haven't gotten zapped until you touch a ground, like say the water faucet or drain, but only if it's grounded.

    The reason you might want to ground the pipes might be in the hopes that the radio will short out to ground when it falls in, and trip the breaker before you touch it.

    All this would only happen if you don't have a GFCI in the circuit as you should.
    There are voltages that disintegrate just about anything, at those voltages.

    We normally associate those voltages with electrochemical reactions. The kind that ignite noncombustible smokeless gun powders. You can put a match to the gunpowders and they act like a ceramic. However when you hit them with an electrochemical initiating cap, they blast, and disintegrate.

    Now there are rays created by these caps. I do not dispute that, nor am I hiding that. However you can get those rays, during ARC.

    As I mentioned I have disintegrated glass since I was kid. I do it sometimes when I cross wires while testing. A Christmas tree light will just leave a little white patch on the work table, where it used to be. But the bulb has moved on, to the outer limits, Ha-ha.

    It is actually the plasma voltages, created by the short circuit. That leave the bulb floating when the two wires disintegrate off from the supply wiring. For a split second, the glass is floating in air. Then it just disappears.

    Anyone can do this. I am surprised none of the more bizarre experimenters, tell their wild tales.

    The early plasma machines told you to never, plasma cut rusty parts. Never have a poor connection to the work piece. Because electrocution was possible.

    A plasma contains voltage equal to the voltage in lightning. However it is in very small quantities. And changes polarity many times a second. A plasma cutter is designed to limit the amount of power in any cycle. They find a sweet spot between voltage and frequency that keeps the operator the safest.

    Over the years my father experimented with his TIG setup. A few times. Putting two water cooled TIG torches to the same output terminal. And only used one at a time. I believe that this setup did something to the hertz. Actually lowered the hertz, in my opinion.
    I do not have equipment that tests microwave frequencies so it is only a guess. However, when I held this aluminum pipe rail he was welding one night. This setup turned the whole pipe rail, into some kind of generator that I could not let go of.

    My hands were stuck and I was pulling tendons in my forearms. I asked him to shut it down, with as much dignity and patience as I could muster. Ha-Ha.

    Both my hands locked on. I could not feel any power going to my boots. But that slight alteration he made, was enough to turn a machine with an outstanding safety record into something that belongs in a torture chamber.

    So everything that works, works because of fine tweaking in its design. While you weld, you touch the part all the time, when you forget the ground clamp, and go to start welding. So we know it is not normally bad or painful.

    If you look at lightning, and the air gap distance between the clouds and the earth. There is no voltage that you can create even in a lab, to break that distance of dielectric air down, not that distance of air. Not in one, on and off shot.

    So we know that something else is taking place. It is that a path, of super heated air is created, and that path, moves rather slowly towards the earth, compared to the flow velocity of electricity.
    Electricity moves many times faster then lightning. Lightning is ARC. A voltage so high, that nothing can stop it. It will creep, leap and create rays to get somewhere else.
    The only thing that can stop ARC, is another ARC. That is what a lightning rod does. It creates an ARC back against the incoming lightning. To repel it.

    I have taken the rather harmless high frequency initiating voltage from the TIG welder. And allowing it to charge glass, brass and lead, I can create a man made lightning bolt, well over an inch and a half long. That penetrated and burned the cuff of a welding glove to go that distance.

    That tells you the kind of voltage present. In that seemingly harmless little spark. That we do pass over our hands all the time. And even touch when we are grounded. But we tend to shut it off quick. Ha-ha.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    This has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread it was posted on. Nor does it contain any worthwhile or accurate information. I'm moving it to trash.-Harold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Yup. Appliance manufacturers have two sensible ways to go: one is ground wire bonded to metal case, the other is a cheaper cord with no ground, and insulating plastic case.
    Of course, there are still some metal parts on the plastic cased drill like the chuck. There must be some method of isolating that from the motor. I wonder how they do that. I've never torn one apart.

    A plastic or carbon fiber gear of some type, separates them.

    At first there were some old timers, that thought one day that is going to get someone good. But I have heard nothing about it. So maybe they licked it pretty good?

    I had a double insulated and grounded, quarter inch drill from Milwaukee, it was my favorite drill.

    Because if a transformer blows and they do. And you are holding onto a drill, you might get your last shock. Double insulated or not.

    That was always the scare in the barber, that while a magnetic field being generated around the barbers clippers, was being created. If there was a transformer burst. The ungrounded clippers, might send you a little something. You might also be getting you last haircut.

    It is the odds though, they are against that happening.


    I had the old Allen Bradley all aluminum grounded drills from Grumman Aero Space growing up. They were great drills. Then they phased them out.

    When I was a very young kid. I heard the older guys talking about a whole table of workers being killed by electric drill motors at a defense plant. I really do not remember which plant though. I believe they had ungrounded drills, but I do not know that for sure. However one of them said they were not grounded.

    But the panel may have lost a ground. And then you could get it from the grounded drill in that case.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    That was always the scare in the barber, that while a magnetic field being generated around the barbers clippers, was being created. If there was a transformer burst. The ungrounded clippers, might send you a little something. You might also be getting you last haircut.
    Another gem of a contribution from a guy who has been everywhere, met everyone, done everything, and yet learnt fuck all about anything - this guy knows less about electronics than Genghis Khan's mother in law knew about Quantum Physics!
    KALSTER likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    That was always the scare in the barber, that while a magnetic field being generated around the barbers clippers, was being created. If there was a transformer burst. The ungrounded clippers, might send you a little something. You might also be getting you last haircut.
    Another gem of a contribution from a guy who has been everywhere, met everyone, done everything, and yet learnt fuck all about anything - this guy knows less about electronics than Genghis Khan's mother in law knew about Quantum Physics!
    Have you ever seen an industrial shop after a transformer accident. The power companies just pay for any and all damages. There is usually damaged stuff.

    There are a few incidents in most towns.

    If you are near a running induction wound device and a transformer pops. You could get hurt.
    If it is right up against your head, I am going to go out on a limb, here and say you could die.

    I know today some of the barbers use the computer strips or power strips. I say power strips because they will not necessarily protect a computer.

    If you have ever been in a magnetic field, while the device short circuits, you know what it is like to live through an EMP pulse. An arc in a magnetic field is a small EMP effect. When a transformer disintegrates it can send some special message to you.
    If you are in a magnetic field, when the transformer pops wow. I know from years of machining, that if our permanent type of test magnet winds up near the AC cord from the reversing switch on the lathe. If you put your hand near the wire and magnet. You keep getting little muscle twitching breaches in the wire insulation.

    From building many electromagnets. I know that, they cause a similar effect. If I touch the feed wire feeding the electromagnet, near the electromagnet. I keep getting shocked. Not bad, or enough for me to stop my experiments. But enough that if you did not know what it was. You would drop it thinking you are taking 120 volts with wet hands.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    It is not a question of relying on the grounding of the pipes to meet any safety code. The question is, if you have the option, would it be better to ground it or not.
    All I was saying was, you cannot be sure your plumbing is _not_ grounded.

    It may or may not be a reliable (or legal) grounding point for any electric circuits, but it certainly is not reliably insulated from the ground. So if you mess with electricity in your bath, don't feel secure that the current won't find a path to the ground via the plumbing, and possibly through your body.

    As I am sure you know, Harold.

    All the best, L.
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    Here's a forensic study of bathtub electrocutions: DEATH BY ELECTROCUTION IN THE BATHTUB

    Although here's someone who got lucky:
    Quote Originally Posted by Witney Gazette, 9th August 2006
    A MAN has been found guilty of attempting to murder his fiancee by throwing electrical appliances into her bath before forcing her head under the water.

    It took a jury at Oxford Crown Court ten hours and five minutes to unanimously convict Gary Boyland of trying to kill Lynsey Brookes, 24, in a bid reminiscent of Bond film Goldfinger.

    Boyland, 34, who lived with Miss Brookes in Sturt Close, Charlbury, hung his head in the dock as the verdict was announced on Monday.

    The jury had heard how Boyland had thrown a hair dryer, stereo and lamp into Miss Brookes's bath after finding out she was still in contact with a former flame.

    A trip switch had kicked in and stopped the electric current running through the water. Boyland then got into the bath, grabbed her head, and forced it underwater.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwirko
    Here's a forensic study of bathtub electrocutions: DEATH BY ELECTROCUTION IN THE BATHTUB

    Although here's someone who got lucky:
    Quote Originally Posted by Witney Gazette, 9th August 2006
    A MAN has been found guilty of attempting to murder his fiancee by throwing electrical appliances into her bath before forcing her head under the water.

    It took a jury at Oxford Crown Court ten hours and five minutes to unanimously convict Gary Boyland of trying to kill Lynsey Brookes, 24, in a bid reminiscent of Bond film Goldfinger.

    Boyland, 34, who lived with Miss Brookes in Sturt Close, Charlbury, hung his head in the dock as the verdict was announced on Monday.

    The jury had heard how Boyland had thrown a hair dryer, stereo and lamp into Miss Brookes's bath after finding out she was still in contact with a former flame.

    A trip switch had kicked in and stopped the electric current running through the water. Boyland then got into the bath, grabbed her head, and forced it underwater.
    Hang on a minute, so he threw some electrical appliances into the bath water, and when he realised that they weren't killing her, he decided to put his hand on her head (which could have completed the circuit to earth and killed them both) - but whatever..........

    It isnt the voltage that kills you, it is the amperage. But you need a sufficient amount of each to kill you.

    For instance, put your hands on a 9 volt battery and you wont get a shock (due to the resistance of your skin) - stick your tongue on the end and you will feel it sizzling slightly; - DONT TRY THIS AT HOME - I ALREADY HAVE). It is 9v DC, but the current isnt sufficiently strong enough to affect you badly.........

    .......Now, take static electricity (which is tens of thousnds of volts) that may hurt, but it wont kill you because it carries no amperage..........

    ........Now take 240volts 5amps. That WILL kill you.

    ........0.5volts 5amps. That WONT kill you.

    ........4volts 1 million amps (used in aluminium ore extraction) that WILL kill you. (its only 4 volts, but look at the amps.)

    I used to go to school with a guy who tried to build "taser" type stun guns by using the capacitors from microwaves. - It killed him!

    Anyway, the moral of the story is.......if it has a warning label on take note of it.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    I guess he was trying to replace an old flame with a new one then... Leo, 4volts is unlikely to kill you no matter how many amps are available, electrocution depends entirely upon a current passing through the body in such a way as to disrupt some bodily function vital to survival (with the heart that is reckoned to be around 60mA through the heart, which may well be a few amps at the surface depending upon where the current enters and leaves the body, it is far to complex to sum up in a few sentences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    I guess he was trying to replace an old flame with a new one then... Leo, 4volts is unlikely to kill you no matter how many amps are available, electrocution depends entirely upon a current passing through the body in such a way as to disrupt some bodily function vital to survival (with the heart that is reckoned to be around 60mA through the heart, which may well be a few amps at the surface depending upon where the current enters and leaves the body, it is far to complex to sum up in a few sentences.
    Hmmm I guess. A static discharge of say 50 megavolts would be enough to kill. (lightening strike) - Going back to the being immersed in water ad having electrical objects thrown in. Won,t the surrounding water be creatng a kind of faraday cage?
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    The type of bath, where any earthing point is in relation to both the body and the electrical item, and quite a few other factors, how fat the person is, the list goes on, so far as I can see the original question about dropping a radio in the bath, should be answered with "How big and heavy and from what height!"
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    And dropping a radio into a bat full of water may also create radio-waves.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    Oh Leo, that was crap, still just a sine of the current times I guess.
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    Radio waves. LOL. Good one, Leo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Oh Leo, that was crap, still just a sine of the current times I guess.

    Get yourself a frequency counter from radio shack. It can locate what frequency a device is outputting from a few inches to a few feet away, or more. Set a standard radio to a frequency and watch the frequency counter.

    Then set the radio to another channel and watch the counter. I could probably tell you what frequency someone is tuned to, with this method and slightly more sensitive equipment.

    The reason is that the receiver is draining the air around the receiver, at intervals setup by the transmission, and the size of the capacitor, and the variable capacitor or tuner. This creates a frequency you can read.

    I was also told never stick the CB antenna into a puddle. Or into the water, while on our cabin boat. I did not even want to do that experiment. Ha-ha. Especially since I was almost killed by fifty or sixty others my father told me not to do.


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    Will,

    I don't need to do all that, I have a perfectly good Spectrum Analyzer, Scopes, Power supplies, 3 Transmittters, My own Network Analyser (an Addon I made for the SA using Directional couplers and the internal tracker) - yes you may have guessed I am (among many other things) a radio ham. And I can tell you mate, almost everything you write about radiowaves and electronics suggests you have read the books but mis-remembered almost everything
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    Last I checked to figure out what frequency someone is tuned to, you simply need to pick up what frequency the Beat Frequency Oscillator is running at in the receiver and do a little math. You can also jam a radio by hitting certain key frequencies that have nothing to do with what they are trying to tune to.

    Why is this thread so off topic ?
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    You need to know the IF to do that one, and whether it (the Local Osc which I think you mis-name BFO) is above or below received frequency (mostly that can be guessed ) - However, I occasionally listen the the aircraft band using an HF reciever tuned to 19Mhz a sig gen set to 110Mhz and a balanced mixer (I don't need an rf amp as the rx sensitivity is of the order of 0.1uV for a 12db sn ratio). now with 110Mhz leaking back up the antenna no way could could you guess what freq I am listening to ( the Antenna size will give you a ball park figure). the RX is a Plessey PR1551 the Gennie is a Marconi 2017

    The BFO (Beat Frequency Oscillator) is actually something different, this is a signal injected into the IF just prior to the detector to re-insert a suppressed carrier and thus allow the original modulation to be demodulated (in simple terms).

    Your method is also defeated should I decide to use a TRF set (a series of tuned amplifiers each set to the recieve frequency), perhaps also a crystal set both now faded almost into obscurity...

    Off topic? - Rubbish, we are just talking about a different type of Mod
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Oh Leo, that was crap, still just a sine of the current times I guess.
    I think that you're going off on a tangent there. :P
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Oh Leo, that was crap, still just a sine of the current times I guess.

    Get yourself a frequency counter from radio shack. It can locate what frequency a device is outputting from a few inches to a few feet away, or more. Set a standard radio to a frequency and watch the frequency counter.

    Then set the radio to another channel and watch the counter. I could probably tell you what frequency someone is tuned to, with this method and slightly more sensitive equipment.

    The reason is that the receiver is draining the air around the receiver, at intervals setup by the transmission, and the size of the capacitor, and the variable capacitor or tuner. This creates a frequency you can read.

    I was also told never stick the CB antenna into a puddle. Or into the water, while on our cabin boat. I did not even want to do that experiment. Ha-ha. Especially since I was almost killed by fifty or sixty others my father told me not to do.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Still, it would beat waiting hours on end for the fish to bite !
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    You need to know the IF to do that one, and whether it (the Local Osc which I think you mis-name BFO) is above or below received frequency (mostly that can be guessed ) - However, I occasionally listen the the aircraft band using an HF reciever tuned to 19Mhz a sig gen set to 110Mhz and a balanced mixer (I don't need an rf amp as the rx sensitivity is of the order of 0.1uV for a 12db sn ratio). now with 110Mhz leaking back up the antenna no way could could you guess what freq I am listening to ( the Antenna size will give you a ball park figure). the RX is a Plessey PR1551 the Gennie is a Marconi 2017

    The BFO (Beat Frequency Oscillator) is actually something different, this is a signal injected into the IF just prior to the detector to re-insert a suppressed carrier and thus allow the original modulation to be demodulated (in simple terms).

    Your method is also defeated should I decide to use a TRF set (a series of tuned amplifiers each set to the recieve frequency), perhaps also a crystal set both now faded almost into obscurity...

    Off topic? - Rubbish, we are just talking about a different type of Mod
    It's been a while since I've read any FCC handbooks on radio. Your right about the Local Oscillator of course and yes there are many types of radios that don't need this setup. It also gets a bit more complex with some of the newer IC's having just about everything in one package. Makes it a bit hard to detect. When CRT's ruled the planet you could just about see what was on the screen by picking up all the stray RF generated by them. Not so simple these days.

    What was this topic about again ?
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    Something about would dropping a radio in the bath kill you, I reckon it would IF it was either playing a Des O'Connor record or it was really big, really heavy and dropped from a great height....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Something about would dropping a radio in the bath kill you, I reckon it would IF it was either playing a Des O'Connor record or it was really big, really heavy and dropped from a great height....
    I think it could. I've got a water softener that adds that tiny trace amount of salt to the water. I guess I should avoid baths while listening to the radio plugged in next to the tub. Come to think of it, who actually brings a radio in to the bathroom ? I could see perhaps a toaster, just in case you get hungry or something...but not a radio
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    Maybe when they show it in the movies it should carry a warning, something like Don't Fry this at home
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Will,

    I don't need to do all that, I have a perfectly good Spectrum Analyzer, Scopes, Power supplies, 3 Transmittters, My own Network Analyser (an Addon I made for the SA using Directional couplers and the internal tracker) - yes you may have guessed I am (among many other things) a radio ham. And I can tell you mate, almost everything you write about radiowaves and electronics suggests you have read the books but mis-remembered almost everything

    No, it is the other way around. Most operators have gone with wave length. Rather then frequency. So although their stuff may work, they are going by the wrong principles.
    They are using a 100 plus year old convention, that was never proven to scientific method standards. You can omit this from the formula, and still come up with the same answer.


    I have built radios before. Not really that much to a simple radio. Except what I said.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    You need to know the IF to do that one, and whether it (the Local Osc which I think you mis-name BFO) is above or below received frequency (mostly that can be guessed ) - However, I occasionally listen the the aircraft band using an HF reciever tuned to 19Mhz a sig gen set to 110Mhz and a balanced mixer (I don't need an rf amp as the rx sensitivity is of the order of 0.1uV for a 12db sn ratio). now with 110Mhz leaking back up the antenna no way could could you guess what freq I am listening to ( the Antenna size will give you a ball park figure). the RX is a Plessey PR1551 the Gennie is a Marconi 2017

    The BFO (Beat Frequency Oscillator) is actually something different, this is a signal injected into the IF just prior to the detector to re-insert a suppressed carrier and thus allow the original modulation to be demodulated (in simple terms).

    Your method is also defeated should I decide to use a TRF set (a series of tuned amplifiers each set to the recieve frequency), perhaps also a crystal set both now faded almost into obscurity...

    Off topic? - Rubbish, we are just talking about a different type of Mod
    But I can find you and jam you.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Oh Leo, that was crap, still just a sine of the current times I guess.

    Get yourself a frequency counter from radio shack. It can locate what frequency a device is outputting from a few inches to a few feet away, or more. Set a standard radio to a frequency and watch the frequency counter.

    Then set the radio to another channel and watch the counter. I could probably tell you what frequency someone is tuned to, with this method and slightly more sensitive equipment.

    The reason is that the receiver is draining the air around the receiver, at intervals setup by the transmission, and the size of the capacitor, and the variable capacitor or tuner. This creates a frequency you can read.

    I was also told never stick the CB antenna into a puddle. Or into the water, while on our cabin boat. I did not even want to do that experiment. Ha-ha. Especially since I was almost killed by fifty or sixty others my father told me not to do.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Still, it would beat waiting hours on end for the fish to bite !
    I think the fish are tougher then that. I know I did not see any floating around. After our town suffered a large power outage. My house boat was tied to the line neutral, but not the ground. When the lights went out, the house boat jumped out of the water.

    It is hard to forget that. Ha-ha.


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    William McCormick
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    I think the fish are tougher then that. I know I did not see any floating around. After our town suffered a large power outage. My house boat was tied to the line neutral, but not the ground. When the lights went out, the house boat jumped out of the water. William McCormick
    I think you were using dynamite, it can have the same effect, the boat jumps out of the water and the lights go out.
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  78. #77  
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    Either that or he had a really really hot peri-peri chicken washed down with 6 pints of lager. (both will have the same effect)
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    Either that or he had a really really hot peri-peri chicken washed down with 6 pints of lager. (both will have the same effect)

    I thought about the six pints though afterwards. And I don't drink, Ha-ha.

    Gave up drinking on a regular basis when I was 21. Since then I could probably count and remember the drinks including wine and beer. I am 46 now.

    I had gone into the local pub, on a Friday night, payday. I had a small tab from the week before. So I paid it. And started to put them away. At the end of the night I had another tab. That was it for me, I quit drinking.

    I used to drink as many as 60-80 rum and cokes. I would not even get drunk.

    One night a friend of mine and myself were really putting them away. The bartender asked us who or what we were. She held up five bottles of rum, and the night was young.

    It degraded into doing donuts on the bar lawn and being asked to leave. But I was actually not drunk. Just having a good time.

    Another night as a teenager, I was in a bar drinking straight liquor, from a giant pitcher. I went through two pitchers. Left got into a race with another friend in a pickup truck. I got, pulled over and passed a sobriety test. With two AWOL Marines, that I actually went to the bar to take home, before they got into trouble. Someone called me and asked me to come down. They were in the back seat, cursing out the local cops.
    The cop threw five dimes on the ground twice. Made me pick them up and put them half on and half off the edge of the car. After the nose touch, and the walking of the straight line thing. Thank God I have Irish Blood.

    They let me go, said I was sober, recentfully. I admit the adrenaline may have sobered me up quick. Thank God they did not have those breath tests. I would have melted it.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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    The first liar doesn't stand a chance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    The first liar doesn't stand a chance.
    Another night in the same town, with the dimes. We were just so bored.

    We were driving around, actually looking back in all honesty, we were just asking for trouble.

    My friend was in his pickup truck I was in my Oldsmobile Cutlas. I had a forty pound bottle of nitrous oxide, being pumped into a two barrel 350 large block rocket motor. I had cut and modified a big block Harley nitrous plate with the gas solenoid to fit the two barrel carburetor, with my TIG skills. For 43 seconds it was scary being next to the car. I actually had twisted the car after a couple years of using nitrous oxide.

    Well there was a cop at a light, behind three cars. My friend makes a "U" turn in front of him. My friend is going to pull into the dinner that is about two hundred yards after the "U" turn. So he burns his tires in front of the cop. Figuring he will be in the dinner before the cop can get out of the traffic.

    As soon as he burned out the cop put on his lights. But I was in the middle of my "U" turn. So the other cars could not move. I decided to hit the nitrous, I was going about 10-15 miles an hour. The engine screamed the tires burned and you could not see 50 yards in any direction.

    I raced into the diner parking lot, and parked next to the pickup truck. My friend had four or five people in his truck. I had way to many in my car, they were sitting on each others laps. We were walking towards the dinner when a really tough, probably a retired marine, turned cop, pulls into the parking lot. He reminded me of my Uncle Tom, also a retired marine, cool and collected. He asked with a walk stopping, heart stopping "Alright! who was driving the Cutlas?"

    Naturally and very calmly, with an air of sarcasm, and incredible ignorance, that Chevy Chase would be proud of, I said "Officer, we all.... just got out of the pick up truck." He just laughed with a jolly all knowing Santa Claus/Marine Sergeant, like laugh. Shock his head like my Uncle Tom and watched, and laughed as we went into the diner. We were all by today's standards smashed.

    Later that night it degraded into running over stop signs. I can see now some of my fathers concern may have some legitimacy. Just ever so slightly. Ha-ha. Maturity is rough. Ha-ha.


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    William McCormick,
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  82. #81 It could, but not likely 
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    There are two components to electricity: Voltage (pressure) - causes the electrons to move in a particular direction; and Amperage: the number of electrons moving past a fixed point in a conductor (wire, etc.) in a second. Much heat is produced if a large number of electrons move past a given point in the conductor (wire, etc.) in a given second. If voltage and amperage is high enough, it will "knock" you off your feet, or at least push you away sharply from the electric source, and burn you severely. If the voltage is low, you would feel a shock (tingle), but it would not be anything to worry about. The amperage would also not be anything to worry about because the pressure (voltage) pushing the amps through the conductor would not produce the heat necessary to burn you.
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    Zombie thread wants brains!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Zombie thread wants brains!
    Braaaaaaaaaainnnnnnnns!
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    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    While most people are aware
    of the danger from electric
    shock, few realize how little
    current and how low a voltage
    are required for a fatal shock.
    Current flows as low as 30 mA
    can be fatal (1 mA=1/1000 A).
    Let’s look at the effects of current flow through a “typical”
    68 kilogram (10 pound) male:
    • At about 10 mA, muscular
    paralysis of the arms occurs,
    so that he cannot release his
    grip.
    • At about 30 mA, respiratory
    paralysis occurs. His breathing stops and the results are
    often fatal.
    • At about 7 to 0 mA, for
    exposure exceeding five seconds, ventricular fibrillation
    occurs, causing discoordination of the heart muscles;
    the heart can no longer
    function. Higher currents
    cause fibrillation at less than
    five seconds. The results are
    often fatal.
    Now let’s calculate the threshhold for a “hazardous” voltage. The approximate body
    resistance under the skin from
    hand to hand across the body
    is 1000 Ω. A voltage of only
    30 V across 1000 Ω will cause
    a current flow of 30 mA. Fortunately, the skin’s resistance
    is much higher. It is the resistance of the skin, especially
    the outer layer of dead cells,
    called the “horny layer,” that
    protects the body. Under wet
    conditions, or if there is a cut,
    skin resistance drops radically.
    At about 600 V, the resistance
    of the skin ceases to exist. It is
    punctured by the high voltage.
    http://faculty.riohondo.edu/jfrala/f...ation_note.pdf

    Don't fool yourselves. Ordinary DC batteries can kill under the right circumstances. And throwing an AC mains powered radio into the bathtub is certain death unless it has a good fuse system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyoko View Post
    While most people are aware
    of the danger from electric
    shock, few realize how little
    current and how low a voltage
    are required for a fatal shock.
    Current flows as low as 30 mA
    can be fatal (1 mA=1/1000 A).
    Let’s look at the effects of current flow through a “typical”
    68 kilogram (10 pound) male:
    • At about 10 mA, muscular
    paralysis of the arms occurs,
    so that he cannot release his
    grip.
    • At about 30 mA, respiratory
    paralysis occurs. His breathing stops and the results are
    often fatal.
    • At about 7 to 0 mA, for
    exposure exceeding five seconds, ventricular fibrillation
    occurs, causing discoordination of the heart muscles;
    the heart can no longer
    function. Higher currents
    cause fibrillation at less than
    five seconds. The results are
    often fatal.
    Now let’s calculate the threshhold for a “hazardous” voltage. The approximate body
    resistance under the skin from
    hand to hand across the body
    is 1000 Ω. A voltage of only
    30 V across 1000 Ω will cause
    a current flow of 30 mA. Fortunately, the skin’s resistance
    is much higher. It is the resistance of the skin, especially
    the outer layer of dead cells,
    called the “horny layer,” that
    protects the body. Under wet
    conditions, or if there is a cut,
    skin resistance drops radically.
    At about 600 V, the resistance
    of the skin ceases to exist. It is
    punctured by the high voltage.
    http://faculty.riohondo.edu/jfrala/f...ation_note.pdf

    Don't fool yourselves. Ordinary DC batteries can kill under the right circumstances. And throwing an AC mains powered radio into the bathtub is certain death unless it has a good fuse system.
    Well...mybusters did an episode on this, and they concluded that fatal current could be produced. This thread was started before that. It still perplexes me, as it defies what I know about electricity. The 120vac comes into the radio, and is separated by just a few cm. To me...when the radio is submerged, the gap between the hot and neutral should be gapped by the water...and the vast majority of the current should flow between the hot and neutral leads of the radio. The human sitting in the water is not grounded...I don't see how there is a circuit for current flow through the humans heart. Maybe I'm not understanding the physics of it.
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  88. #87  
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    Would dropping a radio in a bathtub kill you?

    Well, if it was my radio, at the very least it would get you severely beat up.
    Dywyddyr likes this.
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  89. #88  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    The human sitting in the water is not grounded...I don't see how there is a circuit for current flow through the humans heart. Maybe I'm not understanding the physics of it.
    I guess there will be a potential difference across the body (from the point where the power enters to the point(s) where the water is grounded). As you say, water is not a great conductor. The body is, in parts at least, a better conductor because of the salts, etc in Bodily Fluids (thinking of Dr Strangelove now). The current will be distributed according to resistance, path length, etc. So some will inevitable flow through the body.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    depends on the house..
    in older houses that use copper pipes, a ground can be set up through either the drain or the spigot,
    then there would be a path through a body,
    otherwise the newer houses have nonconducting PVC attached to the drain and faucet so no ground path..

    i would put my money on MacGyvers take, that the radio would short out(assuming any/all breakers fail),maybe one would get a mild shock due to proximity..but not enough to kill.
    (oh..when i was a teenager i had a cord with alligator clips attached to them..and lots of dead electronics around to play with..got bit more than once..)
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    Zombie thread wants brains!!!!
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    This is exactly why I always take my baths in an olympic-size swimming pool. You could splash the entire radio room from the USS Enterprise in that puppy, and I doubt I'd feel a single tingle down my spine.
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  93. #92 Don't do it! 
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    There was an episode on "MythBusters" where they tested this and the test dummy received a lethal dose of current. Of course this does not apply to battery powered radios but the test was done with 120 vac. The Hot wire in contact with the water will conduct current to the metal drain pipe,which is grounded. The current will flow thru the water & your body will provide a parallel path. There is a large surface area between the water & your skin & bodily fluids conduct better than tap water due to ions from salts & other minerals. Current will also flow between the hi & low wires in the radio but that is just another parallel path. Current will flow thru all parallel paths.
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    I was once in a flooded basement with the water over my knees. I did not know it at the time but a plugged fan was in the water. In the 30 minutes I was down there I was never shocked. I only realized something was wrong when when outside the house and touched a chain link fence. I then received a shock. Fortunately I never touched and plumbing pipes while down there. Thus I don't believe that without the Myth Busters creating an improbable situtation one would be electrocuted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokyJoe View Post
    I was once in a flooded basement with the water over my knees. I did not know it at the time but a plugged fan was in the water. In the 30 minutes I was down there I was never shocked. I only realized something was wrong when when outside the house and touched a chain link fence. I then received a shock. Fortunately I never touched and plumbing pipes while down there. Thus I don't believe that without the Myth Busters creating an improbable situtation one would be electrocuted.
    It's one of those things were a subtle change in circumstances would have remarkable effects.
    I have refrained from posting this in this thread- though I did PM it to some, but I'm beginning to be a bit disturbed by seeing too many accounts that make it sound implausible.

    Human Skin is a resistor. It is not a good conductor.
    Just past the skin, however, is a very good conductor.
    A 9 volt battery can kill you. Know anyone that has been killed by one? It's a safe bet that you don't. But I do.
    He used it as a suicide technique- which is why I have avoided spelling it out in the thread.

    The point is; certain circumstances will determine whether or not a lethal shock is able to reach your heart or not. It's a large and rather unpredictable variable, at times. If you think it's not a threat- you're putting yourself in danger and putting others in danger by suggesting with anecdotal evidence that is non-threatening. On the contrary, it can be deadly. Worst case scenario is not always death- it can be living with brain damage when your heart was stopped too long and you were still resuscitated.

    The odds are in your favor.

    But they are only odds based on salinity in the water and skin resistance and when they stack against you, you will be looking death in the eye- so don't risk it. Don't let your family risk it. You never know when the right solution of water with enough salinity and a couple open wounds in your skin make the proper setting and you will be flabbergasted after the fact wondering what the hell went wrong.
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  96. #95  
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    I cannot possibly read through the entire body of this thread, so if this is mentioned therein, my apologies:

    A person lying in a tub-full of water, assuming the tub has grounded metallic drain parts, although one COULD pull the plastic plug, allowing the water to drain, and THUS achieve ground, will experience a shock of whole-body current if line-voltage, ac or dc, is made available to the water. The most superficial opening somewhere in the skin, a bruise, slight cut, etc., would expose the lower-resistance "inner-juices" of the body to become part of the circuit. I might guess that of the two resistances in parallel, the water and the body fluids, the water would be the higher of the two, thus allowing the greater part of the current flow to ground to pass through the inner-body.

    I believe 120 volts under those circumstances could easily prove lethal. Try it with a water-loving mammalian animal, if you care to!

    Put in a GFI. Problem solved. jocular
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  97. #96  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveatLector
    Can we ohm out water?
    I just used my multimeter to test the resistance of a small container of water, but I was not able to get a stable reading, I got anywhere from 20K to 100k ohms of resistance..but those readings are not anything I would hang my hat on. According to wikipedia, pure water doesn't conduct at all...it's the dissolved impurities that conduct, so how pure the water is out of your tap determines the resistance. If anyone can find a more definite answer, that would be appreciated. I've heard that clean, dry skin has a resistance of about 33kohms, but once again that is not definate.
    You ain't gonna find anywhere near PURE water, that is, Ph=7.0, which makes it NON-conductive, anyplace but in a vacuum. 7.0 Ph distilled water, when it's surface is even momentarily exposed to air, immediately "sucks" CO2 into solution, making the result quickly become Ph 5.2 or so, rather conductive.

    If you poke the ohmmeter probes through the skin, into the vital juices, your reading will drop an amazing amount! jocular
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  98. #97  
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    It depends on a number of things:
    A) whether you're in the tub at the time.
    B) what height it was dropped from.
    Etc. Etc.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  99. #98  
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    Not if there isn't any water in it.
    -Shunnka X, shlunkaa X, Shnkla X, Shunkla X, Shlinka X, Shlunka, Correct.
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  100. #99  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    It depends on a number of things:
    A) whether you're in the tub at the time.
    B) what height it was dropped from.
    Etc. Etc.
    Don't forget the factor regarding whether any urine was present in the water. jocular
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  101. #100 Did you read my post? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SmokyJoe View Post
    I was once in a flooded basement with the water over my knees. I did not know it at the time but a plugged fan was in the water. In the 30 minutes I was down there I was never shocked. I only realized something was wrong when when outside the house and touched a chain link fence. I then received a shock. Fortunately I never touched and plumbing pipes while down there. Thus I don't believe that without the Myth Busters creating an improbable situtation one would be electrocuted.
    It's one of those things were a subtle change in circumstances would have remarkable effects.
    I have refrained from posting this in this thread- though I did PM it to some, but I'm beginning to be a bit disturbed by seeing too many accounts that make it sound implausible.

    Human Skin is a resistor. It is not a good conductor.
    Just past the skin, however, is a very good conductor.
    A 9 volt battery can kill you. Know anyone that has been killed by one? It's a safe bet that you don't. But I do.
    He used it as a suicide technique- which is why I have avoided spelling it out in the thread.

    The point is; certain circumstances will determine whether or not a lethal shock is able to reach your heart or not. It's a large and rather unpredictable variable, at times. If you think it's not a threat- you're putting yourself in danger and putting others in danger by suggesting with anecdotal evidence that is non-threatening. On the contrary, it can be deadly. Worst case scenario is not always death- it can be living with brain damage when your heart was stopped too long and you were still resuscitated.

    The odds are in your favor.

    But they are only odds based on salinity in the water and skin resistance and when they stack against you, you will be looking death in the eye- so don't risk it. Don't let your family risk it. You never know when the right solution of water with enough salinity and a couple open wounds in your skin make the proper setting and you will be flabbergasted after the fact wondering what the hell went wrong.
    I merely related an experience I had. I never advised anyone to put an electrical device in the tub with them. However anyone who might do so upon advise received online might just be helping the gene pool. Since we are being snide. I am sure one could chock to death on a nine volt battery.
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