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Thread: Auto-Mail (Mechanical limbs)

  1. #1 Auto-Mail (Mechanical limbs) 
    Forum Ph.D. Hanuka's Avatar
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    I've been watching Full Metal Alchemist series leatly... and was wondering...
    Is it possible to create a mechanical limb that is as durable and free moving
    as in the show?

    I mean, I saw a few videos about those artificial bullshit hands that take a hour
    to rotate teh hand on it's axis and look like a total machine... but I'm yet to
    see a mechanical limb that moves so smooth as in teh series...

    btw, is the mechanical arms today get controls from the brain/nerves or from other
    measures?(like muscle flexing and things like that)

    cheers


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  3. #2  
    Forum Ph.D. Hanuka's Avatar
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    ..anyone? :/


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  4. #3  
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    The most fluid robotic motion I know is Honda's ASIMO. It's primarily a walker, so ASIMO has great hips and a sense of its own inertia & balance. Running, it'll get a bit of air between footfalls!

    ASIMO avoids a person by detouring (00:25)

    ASIMO Conducts Detroit Symphony Orchestra (03:15)


    All vids here.


    About cybernetics. Yes we're just now exploring human mind control of mechanical arms. Turns out this is surprisingly easy. Monkeys learn it in a snap, and the necessary technology is relatively old.
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  5. #4  
    Forum Ph.D. Hanuka's Avatar
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    So no durable limbs such as in FMA exist yet?
    I dont really see how complicated it can be... I mean, if the technology(or at least
    the understanding) is avalible then it should be quite easy to apply. :/
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  6. #5  
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    What do you mean by "durable"? Steel, aluminum, and fibreglass are pretty durable.

    You want an arm that survives bomb blasts? We do have robots built to operate in hostile environments, like burning factories. Mostly urban search and rescue robots, meant to retrieve accident victims.
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  7. #6  
    Forum Ph.D. Hanuka's Avatar
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    Don't be silly... what is good a bomb-proof arm if the user won't survive anyways..
    I'm talking about the joints which make it move be durable enough to sustain
    impacts on the level of lets say... being hit(on the limb) with a 1-2 pound brick from
    a 3rd storie kind of durability and the joints should be intact.

    So if the user be in the army or just practipating martial arts he won't have any problems,
    in fact he might have some advanteges.

    bottom line; is this type of mechanical limb possible(to make todays) or is it already avalible?
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  8. #7  
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    ASIMO can fall down stairs. It automatically shuts down after this happens, but apparently is built tough enough to take that kind of punishment.


    If this is a prosthetic limb anchored to human skeleton (e.g. at the shoulder socket, with tendons) it'll need to have a safe breaking point so strains on the arm don't rip a person apart. Better lose the arm than half your torso with it!
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  9. #8  
    Forum Ph.D. Hanuka's Avatar
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    *pling!*
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  10. #9 Re: Auto-Mail (Mechanical limbs) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuka
    I've been watching Full Metal Alchemist series leatly... and was wondering...
    Is it possible to create a mechanical limb that is as durable and free moving
    as in the show?

    I mean, I saw a few videos about those artificial bullshit hands that take a hour
    to rotate teh hand on it's axis and look like a total machine... but I'm yet to
    see a mechanical limb that moves so smooth as in teh series...

    btw, is the mechanical arms today get controls from the brain/nerves or from other
    measures?(like muscle flexing and things like that)

    cheers
    When I was younger I built a muscle, using a pneumatic bag (a thin long ballon), and string running parallel to the thin ballon. The strings were held so they could not slip off the balloon. When you inflated the balloon the strings got taunt and pulled very powerfully. Like the string in the bow, pulls the bow taunt. The power of a balloon and tiny amounts of pressure, was actually a bit frightening. I was amazed at the power created from such low pressure.

    It worked just like a human muscle.

    I never found anyone that was really interested. Just those that wanted to market it.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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  11. #10  
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    That's so cool William. Unfortunately the dead muscle can't heal, so it would wear down sooner than machines with motors and ball-bearings. Wait 'till we have microscopic fixers that can flow though your artificial muscle like oil.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    That's so cool William. Unfortunately the dead muscle can't heal, so it would wear down sooner than machines with motors and ball-bearings. Wait 'till we have microscopic fixers that can flow though your artificial muscle like oil.
    Believe it or not. I was also a bit leery of that. However the muscle expands. And in doing so, really does not move along the length of the muscle at all. It just expands outward.

    The power is not to be believed. That is how our own muscles work. They are attached by tendons very close to the joint.

    So if I can curl 100 pounds with one hand, that means that, my biceps is actually pulling up on my forearm with 1200 pounds of force. I had always wondered how that was possible.

    Once you do this experiment you can see the power of even a few strings. Very powerful. It could easily move furniture. With just a fraction of a pound of air pressure.

    It cannot move anything far. But the power is remarkable.

    I am saying that the design of the human muscle really does not create a lot of friction. Because it only moves the tendon about an inch. Maybe less. If the pneumatic bag floated and I do not see why it could not. There would be perhaps no friction involved.

    The power created by the string being deflected by the pneumatic bag, on the bow itself is outrageous.

    Consider the more strings you have the more effective the muscle becomes. Because it does not matter to the bag, how many strings are against it. Each is bowed or deflected with the same force. The pressure in the bag moves them all with no change in pressure. It does not care if there are two strings or ten strings or a hundred strings.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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  13. #12  
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    The friction I'm concerned about is between bag and string/straps. There's no perfect way to keep those parts from rubbing - nothing comparable to hard bearings. On the other hand sails and rigging have been doing this forever, and we live with it. The traditional solution to chafe is ...ooh a precious term: baggy winkle. That's a shaggy sheath for rope.

    I know the chafe seems minor but if the muscle works all day it'll be an issue.
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  14. #13  
    Forum Ph.D. Hanuka's Avatar
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    so um.. can these baloon technique be implemented into an arm/leg deisgn?..
    ..and how will it get it's moving coordinates?

    One thing for certain.. it'll be a machine, and machines need constant care
    to work properly.. so I dun see how the friction "problem" is an actual problem..
    just oil yar arm once in a while, replace some parts once in two whiles and all will be fine..
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  15. #14  
    Forum Ph.D. Leszek Luchowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuka
    So if the user be in the army or just practipating martial arts he won't have any problems, in fact he might have some advanteges.
    Even without any high-tech stuff, I'd rather not try Krav Maga with Captain Hook...
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  16. #15  
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    well as the show put it, to have any kind of reaction time as actual limbs you'd have to wire the circitry right into the nerve endings some how. and even then for the prostetic to be in any way as durable and stable as they use it in full metal alchemist, you'd have to have one hell of a base. i would think you'd probubly need more extensive bio-mechanics than just your arm. i would think you'd need at least the shoulder and possible some of your torso.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    The friction I'm concerned about is between bag and string/straps. There's no perfect way to keep those parts from rubbing - nothing comparable to hard bearings. On the other hand sails and rigging have been doing this forever, and we live with it. The traditional solution to chafe is ...ooh a precious term: baggy winkle. That's a shaggy sheath for rope.

    I know the chafe seems minor but if the muscle works all day it'll be an issue.
    The diaphragm pumps, hold up well. And last a long time. Often way out lasting the rival pumps with bearings. Due to the contamination in regular bearings.

    With a pneumatic diaphragm pump, you have a metal plate pushing up against the rubber diaphragm hard. Stretching them. Often at rather high speeds.

    Years and years of service. Eight hour a day service. In the most outrageous conditions. Pumping thick liquids and solids.

    The imitation human muscles will work.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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  18. #17  
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    I think you're right.

    Now how to power these muscles without the bulk of compressor and hoses? I'm thinking they'd be most useful if very small, even clustered together. Could a phase change within sealed membrane work? Like, explosively heat water by internal element?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I think you're right.

    Now how to power these muscles without the bulk of compressor and hoses? I'm thinking they'd be most useful if very small, even clustered together. Could a phase change within sealed membrane work? Like, explosively heat water by internal element?
    You do not need much air pressure to actuate them. You might even get away with a blower or multi stage vacuum pump.

    There are special blade designs that are not common to most individuals that make the most of input power.

    I would think you would want to keep both muscles activated to some degree or under some pressure. To keep the limb stiff. Or rigid at all times.

    If the air is clean you might be able to utilize a slide tray valve that bypasses back to the pump all in one motion.

    I would just love to see it.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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  20. #19  
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    Hmm. I'm thinking of those automatic greenhouse vents. They're so elegant. But sluggish - which is perfect for that application.

    If your artificial muscle did a violent phase change from ambient temperature I'll bet we'd find applications for it. Especially if you could scale them down for compact and micro appliances. Here an electric element seems best, doesn't it?

    For prosthetics I still think air hoses inappropriate. We're wanting tiny muscles, like the muscles in a hand... or a fabric of minuscule cells, to augment damaged organs.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Hmm. I'm thinking of those automatic greenhouse vents. They're so elegant. But sluggish - which is perfect for that application.

    If your artificial muscle did a violent phase change from ambient temperature I'll bet we'd find applications for it. Especially if you could scale them down for compact and micro appliances. Here an electric element seems best, doesn't it?

    For prosthetics I still think air hoses inappropriate. We're wanting tiny muscles, like the muscles in a hand... or a fabric of minuscule cells, to augment damaged organs.
    I believe we could easily with very small air hoses create the compact human like muscle. With very fast reflexes. Perhaps a little faster then a humans.

    If air is kept under pressure in both muscles, biceps and triceps, keeping both taunt. As you switch a very tiny slide tray valve, that allows air to bypass, back to the pump or to the muscle. As you switch the pressure abundance from one muscle to the other. You will get an immediate effect. Very quickly activating the muscle you want to dominate.

    I actually built one of these muscles, it was successful. Having seen them dismantle a working space program, to replace it with a failed space program. I just shrugged and said to myself that too. I am not into just building stuff to appease the latest trend. I like to build stuff that is really scientifically correct.

    I have also built an air and water pump that defies the laws of science. It is of World War Two vintage. Very impressive impeller. It has 90 degree quarter circle impeller blades. Very efficient is an understatement. It could supply more then enough air, to power a lot of muscles for very little input power.

    It was incorporated during the sixties into a prototype version of the F14 at Grumman Aero Space. It was manufactured by GE corp. It was an aluminum tubular rotor, magnetically repelled from a hollow tubular electromagnetic coil, this repulsion created the bearing. There was no physical bearing, just the repulsion bearing. Each motor required 40 HP to power them. Yet they were capable of high thrust, not considered possible from 40 HP.

    The project met with extreme prejudice and came to an end. And so the F-14 with fuel engines was purchased by the Navy instead.







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    William McCormick
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  22. #21  
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    Air does have the advantage of negligible weight. And air leak is perfectly harmless in the majority of applications.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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