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| organic god |
 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: electric and magnetic field differences |
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i got a question today in physics.
"state two differences between electric and magnetic fields"
i'm really stumped i considered.
magentic field lines will form a loop however electric field lines are continuos and will extend to infinity. does this only apply to point charges/magnets?
i also considered that a charge can be shielded from the effects of another charge. but a magnet can't. (incidentally what particles are effected by magnetic fields?)
any help would be appreciated
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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You are already on a good way. Indeed the main difference is that charges can appear as monopoles, magnets can't (at least they have not been observed yet). Therefore, magnetic fields generally are always closed, because you always have a source and a sink for magnetic fields. This is different for electric fields. If you vary one of these fields, you automatically generate the other (electromagnetic waves). They are polarised orthogonally to each other.
Shielding is another good example, just as you stated. All charged particles can be affected by magnetic fields (metals have lots of free electrons). If you observe an electron flying through a magnetic field, it deviates from its original path and emits synchrotron radiation. But also neutral particles can be affected indirectly. |
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| William McCormick |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Dishmaster wrote: |
You are already on a good way. Indeed the main difference is that charges can appear as monopoles, magnets can't (at least they have not been observed yet). Therefore, magnetic fields generally are always closed, because you always have a source and a sink for magnetic fields. This is different for electric fields. If you vary one of these fields, you automatically generate the other (electromagnetic waves). They are polarised orthogonally to each other.
Shielding is another good example, just as you stated. All charged particles can be affected by magnetic fields (metals have lots of free electrons). If you observe an electron flying through a magnetic field, it deviates from its original path and emits synchrotron radiation. But also neutral particles can be affected indirectly. |
I am not sure what you mean by charges that are monopole? Any charge whether abundant or short of electrons. Is trying to get somewhere, or something is trying to get to it.
Air might be holding it back, or keeping power from getting to it. By air almost instantly polarizing at the contact point, and repelling electricity from flowing from the charged pole. Or repel electricity from other neutral points in the area and keeping them from hitting the pole.
In a vacuum you will see that charge is not monopole. It either wants to get somewhere, or something else wants to get to it.
You can block magnetic effects with three walls of steel. And space between them. That was the foundation of the original flight recorders.
They had three wall steel boxes to block magnetism, during total destruction of the plane. To protect the tape recordings on magnetic tape, made during the crash. The small bubbles with the magnetic switches in the tape are highly susceptible to outside magnetism. The triple wall steel black box would protect them. Even during explosions.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
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| Cold Fusion |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone know what a magnetic field is exactly? Wikipedia and a few other sources seem to avoid the question and only ramble on about magnetic vectors etc..., but never really answer the main question.
What I do not understand, is how can it only want materials like steel and Iron, but not aluminum and copper? Magnets attract and repel themselves to electron currents which insinuates that it is trying to fulfill a depletion zone.......could it only be that the the negative side is only a large accumulation of electrons, and the positive side is merely the will to regain what it lost? But then, why wouldn't it automatically equalize out? We also arbitrarily decided on which side is positive and which is negative; I find that extremely sloppy, physicists need to empirically find that out before we can truly progress any farther into the field(npi) of magnetics.
npi=no pun intended- because saying that is way too cliche.
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| William McCormick wrote: |
I am not sure what you mean by charges that are monopole? |
That is simple. Charges are either positive or negative. In the particle world, they can be provided by ions and electrons, for example. But there has never been found a magnet that is only polarised "north" or "south".
I am no flight engineer, but I suspect that the magnetic shielding is not perfect. The field is probably only strongly attenuated. There is nothing comparable in magnetism as a Faraday cage in electricity. |
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Cold Fusion wrote: |
Does anyone know what a magnetic field is exactly? Wikipedia and a few other sources seem to avoid the question and only ramble on about magnetic vectors etc..., but never really answer the main question.
What I do not understand, is how can it only want materials like steel and Iron, but not aluminum and copper? Magnets attract and repel themselves to electron currents which insinuates that it is trying to fulfill a depletion zone.......could it only be that the the negative side is only a large accumulation of electrons, and the positive side is merely the will to regain what it lost? But then, why wouldn't it automatically equalize out? We also arbitrarily decided on which side is positive and which is negative; I find that extremely sloppy, physicists need to empirically find that out before we can truly progress any farther into the field(npi) of magnetics. |
Magnetism and electricity are closely related. As far as physics know at the moment, there are no such simple particles in magnetism that produce a magnetic field as in electricity. But whenever you have a changing electric field, you automatically get a magnetic field. So, e.g. every power line produces a magnetic field. In particle physics, it is much more complicated, because there magnetism is a quantum mechanical effect. But you can imagine (only as a model, not too seriously taken) electrons as spinning particles. This can be interpreted as a rotating and thereby variable charge, hence it produces a magnetic field that is orientated according to the spin axis. This can react to external magnets. So why do some metals react and some don't? It depends on the atomic structure of these metals. They all have more than just one electron per atom. And in some cases, two electrons can be orientated in such a way to another that their magnetic force cancels out. But you can "induce" a magnetic field by external magnets. If such a magnet is strong enough, you can affect the aluminium, if you move the magnet along it (rapidly and repeatedly).
Free electric charges can also react on magnetic fields. There is the phenomenon of synchrotron radiation. This is produced whenever a charged particle (e.g. electron) moves through a magnetic field. If the direction is right, the particle starts to spiral around. This leads to radiation. |
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| William McCormick |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Dishmaster wrote: |
| William McCormick wrote: |
I am not sure what you mean by charges that are monopole? |
That is simple. Charges are either positive or negative. In the particle world, they can be provided by ions and electrons, for example. But there has never been found a magnet that is only polarised "north" or "south".
I am no flight engineer, but I suspect that the magnetic shielding is not perfect. The field is probably only strongly attenuated. There is nothing comparable in magnetism as a Faraday cage in electricity. |
You can stop magnetism. Very easily. Three walls of steel and air gaps.
Often after someone has suffered a severe loss. They don't always want to know the simplicity of it.
So sometimes you get into arguments. Like there is no bullet that cannot be stopped and no bullet proofing that a bullet cannot penetrate.
In some cases if the round was large enough even though it would not penetrate the bullet proofing, it would kill all in side the plane, because of its tremendous size and impact.
If you can create a huge enough magnetic field, you could of course effect something protected inside of the field with enough power. However with more walls of steel and more air gaps at some point it will nullify the gigantic field. Even just more air gap would do it.
To me magnetism is electron flow, electricity. Electricity cannot be created as a single pole in my understanding. And neither can a magnet.
But I can block either of them. By creating a similar effect, that repels them. The new effect is not quite as powerful. If I do that a couple times I can get it to where it is either undetectable, or at a level that is within acceptable standards. Or standards that do the job.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
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| William McCormick |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Dishmaster wrote: |
| Cold Fusion wrote: |
Does anyone know what a magnetic field is exactly? Wikipedia and a few other sources seem to avoid the question and only ramble on about magnetic vectors etc..., but never really answer the main question.
What I do not understand, is how can it only want materials like steel and Iron, but not aluminum and copper? Magnets attract and repel themselves to electron currents which insinuates that it is trying to fulfill a depletion zone.......could it only be that the the negative side is only a large accumulation of electrons, and the positive side is merely the will to regain what it lost? But then, why wouldn't it automatically equalize out? We also arbitrarily decided on which side is positive and which is negative; I find that extremely sloppy, physicists need to empirically find that out before we can truly progress any farther into the field(npi) of magnetics. |
Magnetism and electricity are closely related. As far as physics know at the moment, there are no such simple particles in magnetism that produce a magnetic field as in electricity. But whenever you have a changing electric field, you automatically get a magnetic field. So, e.g. every power line produces a magnetic field. In particle physics, it is much more complicated, because there magnetism is a quantum mechanical effect. But you can imagine (only as a model, not too seriously taken) electrons as spinning particles. This can be interpreted as a rotating and thereby variable charge, hence it produces a magnetic field that is orientated according to the spin axis. This can react to external magnets. So why do some metals react and some don't? It depends on the atomic structure of these metals. They all have more than just one electron per atom. And in some cases, two electrons can be orientated in such a way to another that their magnetic force cancels out. But you can "induce" a magnetic field by external magnets. If such a magnet is strong enough, you can affect the aluminium, if you move the magnet along it (rapidly and repeatedly).
Free electric charges can also react on magnetic fields. There is the phenomenon of synchrotron radiation. This is produced whenever a charged particle (e.g. electron) moves through a magnetic field. If the direction is right, the particle starts to spiral around. This leads to radiation. |
You should seriously take a look at ambient radiation doing everything. An all electron world.
I cannot believe that others did not learn the eye as an electrical device. That detects different voltages, from rays of electrons that are bombarding the eye. And we just call this stimulation light.
I hear others talk about light like it is some far out, unknown thing, rather then just rays of electrons. The same as magnetism, radiation.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| William McCormick wrote: |
I hear others talk about light like it is some far out, unknown thing, rather then just rays of electrons. |
??????????????????????????? 
You mean: light is made of electrons? How did you come up with this nonsense? Have you ever tried to deflect a ray of light (e.g. laser) with an electric or magnetic field as you can with electrons (cyclotron, synchrotron)? Guess what, it does not work.
Furthermore, beta radiation is made of electrons. They don't come very far and get absorbed by the air (mostly the water vapour in it). Only at very high voltages (e.g during a thunderstorm), electrons can travel a long way. They ionise the air. The recombination of the ions leads to the emission of photons which can be observed as lightnings. |
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| William McCormick |
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Dishmaster wrote: |
| William McCormick wrote: |
I hear others talk about light like it is some far out, unknown thing, rather then just rays of electrons. |
???????????????????????????
You mean: light is made of electrons? How did you come up with this nonsense? Have you ever tried to deflect a ray of light (e.g. laser) with an electric or magnetic field as you can with electrons (cyclotron, synchrotron)? Guess what, it does not work.
Furthermore, beta radiation is made of electrons. They don't come very far and get absorbed by the air (mostly the water vapour in it). Only at very high voltages (e.g during a thunderstorm), electrons can travel a long way. They ionise the air. The recombination of the ions leads to the emission of photons which can be observed as lightnings. |
Light is electrons, it is the velocity, that keeps them going straight. If you slow them down some, they will turn. Part of reason why light does not turn, is because of the excited path created in the air light travels in. By rather fast moving electrons, that keeps them flying straight. Apply heat rays/electrons to the air they are traveling in and you can see the light deflect nicely.
We often forget that light/electrons are traveling through air most of the time. Affect that air and you can bend the light. Ask the Dessert troops about bent light.
That is all that is happening when you see what they think is a black hole. It is just a huge dark planet. And the gas in space that is lit or slightly glowing, over powers the black holes emission over great distances. Almost like a mirage.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
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| Euclidean-Paradox |
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| William McCormick wrote: |
Light is electrons, it is the velocity, that keeps them going straight. If you slow them down some, they will turn. Part of reason why light does not turn, is because of the excited path created in the air light travels in. By rather fast moving electrons, that keeps them flying straight. Apply heat rays/electrons to the air they are traveling in and you can see the light deflect nicely.
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Light is not made of electrons. Light, and for that matter all of the radiation on the electromagnetic spectrum, comes from energetic photons at specific wavelengths.
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We often forget that light/electrons are traveling through air most of the time. Affect that air and you can bend the light. Ask the Dessert troops about bent light.
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That's not correct. First of, light mostly travels through the vacuum of space. And, light is only bent when it passes between mediums. How much it is bent by depends on the index of refraction of the material; for air, the index of refraction is about 1.0003.
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| William McCormick wrote: |
| Apply heat rays/electrons to the air they are traveling in and you can see the light deflect nicely. |
No, this is because the air boils and the refraction index changes. You wouldn't see anything of this in space. Otherwise, how can you explain that stars located on a line of sight close to the sun's direction are not blurred? You can try to observe this during a solar eclipse.
| William McCormick wrote: |
We often forget that light/electrons are traveling through air most of the time. Affect that air and you can bend the light. Ask the Dessert troops about bent light. |
Haha, for someone, who is so proud about his English language, the expression "dessert troops" is really a big joke. I reckon you meant "desert troops".
| William McCormick wrote: |
That is all that is happening when you see what they think is a black hole. It is just a huge dark planet. And the gas in space that is lit or slightly glowing, over powers the black holes emission over great distances. Almost like a mirage. |
Now this is really funny. Black holes don't emit. (Yeah yeah, don't bother me with this infamous Hawking radiation. Not detected up to now!) But you can detect X rays coming from its accretion disc. I have never seen anything even close to what you describe. A mirage? Are you talking about the light deflection of stars (even observed for a comparably small mass like the sun) due to gravity? A drak planet - regardless of how dark it is - will always emit some radiation because of its heat (Planck radiation). But it has never been observed.
Say, where do you get all these strange ideas from. Is there a book, some teacher, or do you breed this all out by yourself? |
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:03 am Post subject: |
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How can it be that light is made of electrons, when light easily passes glass while an electric current cannot? Glass is a very good insulator. On the other hand, why do metals allow current (electrons) to flow while light cannot shine through (except for IR)? You see, their properties are very different.
I think you are obsessed with electricity, because you believe that Franklin was the most brilliant scientist in human history. |
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| siddhant |
| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: MAGNETIC FIELD MEANS MOVING CHARGES |
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MAGNETIC FIELDS IS PRODUCED ONLY WHEN CHARGES ARE IN MOTION.
BUT ELECTRIC FIEDS ARE ALWAYS THERE WITH CHARGES.. MOVING OR STATIONARY...
THATS THE BIGGGGGGGEST DIFFERENCE
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I won't die until i find out where i m gonna go after dying..... and I KNOW PHYSICS IS GONNA HELP ME FIND IT OUT. |
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Re: MAGNETIC FIELD MEANS MOVING CHARGES |
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| siddhant wrote: |
MAGNETIC FIELDS IS PRODUCED ONLY WHEN CHARGES ARE IN MOTION.
BUT ELECTRIC FIEDS ARE ALWAYS THERE WITH CHARGES.. MOVING OR STATIONARY...
THATS THE BIGGGGGGGEST DIFFERENCE |
Partly true. You can also produce electricity by varying magnetic fields. This is used in a dynamo for example. Every power plant has one. |
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