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Thread: which one do you use?

  1. #1 which one do you use? 
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    "Not only do the children need new clothes, but also need new bookbags."
    " The Children not only need clothes but also need new bookbags."
    Which one do you often write or say?
    Are these the same? Are they correct?


    Many thanks


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  3. #2  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    They are the same and both are used often, but the way you wrote them is incorrect. You're missing the pronoun "they" in each.

    They should read like this:

    "Not only do the children need new clothes, but they also need new bookbags."
    " The Children not only need clothes, but they also need new bookbags."


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  4. #3  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Or:
    "Not only do the children need new clothes, but also new bookbags."
    " The Children not only need clothes but also new bookbags."
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    Forum Senior samsmoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nima_persian View Post
    "Not only do the children need new clothes, but also need new bookbags."
    " The Children not only need clothes but also need new bookbags."
    Which one do you often write or say?
    Are these the same? Are they correct?


    Many thanks
    They are not the same: the first sentence specifies 'new clothes' whereas the following one relates only to 'clothes'.

    I never say or write either sentence but if I did I would say "The children need new bookbags as well as new clothes".
    Scientists and religionists can be easily differentiated: one lot is arrogant, irascible and disdainful, the other believes in God.
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  6. #5  
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    As for which one would someone choose ...

    Normally such a sentence would be part of a longer piece of writing. So the choice might be governed by how other sentences have been written.
    Very often it's regarded as boring or repetitive for consecutive sentences to have exactly the same structure. If the two preceding sentences had begun with "The children ..." then a lot of people would choose a different beginning for this sentence.

    On the other hand, if this were part of a speech or a rhetorical piece where the speaker or writer was looking for emphasis, they could deliberately choose to start several sentences with exactly the same structure, or even the same words, to drive the point home. In this case, that children were in need. Or "Not only ... this " followed by "Not only ... that" then "Not only ... another thing".
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    As for which one would someone choose ...

    Normally such a sentence would be part of a longer piece of writing. So the choice might be governed by how other sentences have been written.
    Very often it's regarded as boring or repetitive for consecutive sentences to have exactly the same structure. If the two preceding sentences had begun with "The children ..." then a lot of people would choose a different beginning for this sentence.

    On the other hand, if this were part of a speech or a rhetorical piece where the speaker or writer was looking for emphasis, they could deliberately choose to start several sentences with exactly the same structure, or even the same words, to drive the point home. In this case, that children were in need. Or "Not only ... this " followed by "Not only ... that" then "Not only ... another thing".
    Excellent explanation and eloquently put.

    An example might be, "Not only do the children need new clothes, they also need new bookbags". Notice the exclusion of 'but' in this rhetorical scenario, as its presence does not aid the effectiveness of its intention [Edit: the intention of the rhetoric].
    Last edited by samsmoot; March 28th, 2014 at 11:35 PM.
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    You could use 'but' this way in the same context, as in, "The children need new clothes - but they also need new bookbags".
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  9. #8  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    You could use 'but' this way in the same context
    Only if you're bad at English.
    "But" is used to indicate a contrasting clause.
    There's no contrast between the two clauses given: both are about the same thing - a need for something new.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    You could use 'but' this way in the same context
    Only if you're bad at English.
    "But" is used to indicate a contrasting clause.
    There's no contrast between the two clauses given: both are about the same thing - a need for something new.
    It is a contrasting clause. The contrast being the consideration given to each subject - the new clothes being a given need, the new bookbags being a purported need. Two needs but different qualities apply to each. Hence the contrast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    It is a contrasting clause.
    Bull.

    The contrast being the consideration given to each subject - the new clothes being a given need, the new bookbags being a purported need. Two needs but different qualities apply to each. Hence the contrast.
    Yeah?
    "Not only do the children need new clothes, but also need new bookbags."
    "The Children not only need clothes but also need new bookbags."
    Both are needs for a new something.
    Your distinguishing between "given" and "purported" is a figment of your own imagination.

    No contrast.

    (Then again, having seen your claims about ad hom arguments I'm not surprised you got this wrong too).
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    It is a contrasting clause.
    Bull.

    The contrast being the consideration given to each subject - the new clothes being a given need, the new bookbags being a purported need. Two needs but different qualities apply to each. Hence the contrast.
    Yeah?
    "Not only do the children need new clothes, but also need new bookbags."
    "The Children not only need clothes but also need new bookbags."
    Both are needs for a new something.
    True - but my example for usage in a rhetorical context is clearly giving different weight to each need - for the purpose of showing a different way of saying the same thing. I assert that it is correct English with a clear and effective meaning.
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  13. #12  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    True - but my example for usage in a rhetorical context is clearly giving different weight to each need - for the purpose of showing a different way of saying the same thing.
    Yeah, you managed to ignore the relevant part: Your distinguishing between "given" and "purported" is a figment of your own imagination.
    Any "different weight" is NOT in the original.

    I assert that it is correct English
    Assert all you like, you're wrong.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post

    (Then again, having seen your claims about ad hom arguments I'm not surprised you got this wrong too).
    And having witnessed your irrational pedantry regarding the usage of the word 'evolutionism' in a thread entitled "Why do you believe in God" I'm unsurprised to see more of it
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    True - but my example for usage in a rhetorical context is clearly giving different weight to each need - for the purpose of showing a different way of saying the same thing.
    Yeah, you managed to ignore the relevant part: Your distinguishing between "given" and "purported" is a figment of your own imagination. No, they are descriptions of what is in the original with more emphasis on the existing differences.
    Any "different weight" is NOT in the original. It is, as the clothes are a pre-existing requirement, the bookbags a proposed requirement.

    I assert that it is correct English
    Assert all you like, you're wrong.
    No, that would be you again.
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  16. #15  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    No, they are descriptions of what is in the original with more emphasis on the existing differences.
    It is, as the clothes are a pre-existing requirement, the bookbags a proposed requirement.
    Wrong again.
    How much need is not specified: nor is the current state of the existing items.
    Therefore any differentiation is purely your own invention.

    And, regardless, "but" is an incorrect usage, there's no contrast because it's supplemental.
    1. On the contrary: the plan caused not prosperity but ruin.

    2. Contrary to expectation; yet: She organized her work but accomplished very little. He is tired but happy.

    3. Usage Problem Used to indicate an exception: No one but she saw the prowler.

    4. With the exception that; except that. Often used with that: would have joined the band but he couldn't spare the time; would have resisted but that they lacked courage.



    Off to the ignore list.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; March 29th, 2014 at 01:41 AM.
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  17. #16  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nima_persian View Post
    "Not only do the children need new clothes, but also need new bookbags."
    " The Children not only need clothes but also need new bookbags."
    Which one do you often write or say?
    Are these the same? Are they correct?


    Many thanks
    They are not the same: the first sentence specifies 'new clothes' whereas the following one relates only to 'clothes'.

    I never say or write either sentence but if I did I would say "The children need new bookbags as well as new clothes".
    In everyday language it is assumed that you would be buying "new" clothes. when people say they need to get clothes they, more often than not, are not talking about the thrift store.
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