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Thread: must and will

  1. #1 must and will 
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    He will have painted the walls by tomorrow.
    He must have painted the walls by yesterday.
    Does each one have two different connotations?
    So, if we have four different likelihood meanings, would you show me with an example?


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  3. #2  
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    "He will have painted the walls by tomorrow."
    This means that you have confidence that the walls will be painted either today or tomorrow. Perhaps he has bought the paint and the paintbrushes. He has scheduled the time to do the painting. You are pretty sure it will be done.

    "He must have painted the walls by yesterday."
    This is not something you would usually say. It's not incorrect, it's just something an English speaker would probably say differently. When you say "He must have painted the walls" it means you have evidence that he painted the walls. Perhaps you go into the room and see that the walls have fresh paint on them. The person you are talking about is most likely the one who painted the walls. It doesn't mean that he needed to paint the walls, it means you must conclude based upon the evidence, that he painted the walls.If you add "by yesterday" it means that he painted the walls yesterday or earlier.
    What you would probably say instead is "He must have painted the walls." or "He must have painted the walls yesterday or sometime earlier."

    "He must have painted the walls by tomorrow."
    This means that there is a need for him to have the walls painted no later than tomorrow. Perhaps he is entertaining guests tomorrow. The walls are not in an acceptable condition to entertain guests. Therefore, when tomorrow comes around, the walls had better be painted, or else there will be undesirable consequences.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    "He must have painted the walls by tomorrow."
    This sounds very slightly unnatural to me. I would be more likely to say, "He must have the walls painted by tomorrow."

    Nothing else to add.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    "He must have painted the walls by tomorrow."
    This sounds very slightly unnatural to me.
    That's because it's wrong.

    "It should be "He must paint the walls by tomorrow."
    I can't tell you the exact rule 'cause I don't have all that stuff memorized
    but as it's written in that sentence "must have painted" refers to the past and "tomorrow" is obviously future...

    The way it's written would be like saying "Sorry to hear about your dead dog tomorrow."

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I would be more likely to say, "He must have the walls painted by tomorrow."...
    That works too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    That's because it's wrong.
    I don't think it is wrong. I think it is the subjunctive (which is why it sounds odd, we don't really use it in modern English.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    That's because it's wrong.
    I don't think it is wrong. I think it is the subjunctive (which is why it sounds odd, we don't really use it in modern English.)
    I just checked. No, it's wrong because the past participle is "have painted" and it's combined with the future tense "by tomorrow."
    It's inconsistent.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I just checked. No, it's wrong because the past participle is "have painted" and it's combined with the future tense "by tomorrow."
    It's inconsistent.
    Checked where?

    And your objection should also apply to the version about which you said "that works too"; all I did was change the word order.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I just checked. No, it's wrong because the past participle is "have painted" and it's combined with the future tense "by tomorrow."
    It's inconsistent.
    Checked where?
    "The elements of writing." It's a grammar book

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    And your objection should also apply to the version about which you said "that works too"; all I did was change the word order.
    No, because changing the order makes "must have" present tense and "painted" becomes an adjective. It's a verb acting as an adjective. It's called a verbal phrase
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    Do you have a problem with "He will have painted the walls by tomorrow"?
    How about "He has to have painted the walls by 4 o'clock"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Do you have a problem with "He will have painted the walls by tomorrow"?
    How about "He has to have painted the walls by 4 o'clock"?
    Not on first glance. at least the first one. the second one seems funny...

    Damn it, now they both sound weird.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    "The elements of writing." It's a grammar book
    I assume you mean The Elements of Style? As the title suggests, it is a style book, not grammar. I have never seen it but linguists seem pretty dismissive of it in general.
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    "must" implies necessity, even coercion, while "will" does not. Will comes from inside a person, must comes from outside.

    "She will go to the dance with Bob" (she may change her mind, but this is the plan now)
    "She must go to the dance with Bob" (something/someone is forcing her to go to the dance with Bob, it is required of her, there are no options)

    "He must have painted the walls" must means no other possibilities are possible, so that that thing is forced to be true, there are not options.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    "The elements of writing." It's a grammar book
    I assume you mean The Elements of Style? As the title suggests, it is a style book, not grammar. I have never seen it but linguists seem pretty dismissive of it in general.
    Actually is has quite a bit of grammar in it as well. Wonder if it's use is generational somehow, it was mandatory for most of my generation and still found in most college book stores. Many highly successful writers such as Stephen King list is at a must have as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Actually is has quite a bit of grammar in it as well. Wonder if it's use is generational somehow, it was mandatory for most of my generation and still found in most college book stores. Many highly successful writers such as Stephen King list is at a must have as well.
    It may be a UK / US thing. I think a lot of British writers do (or did) recommend equivalents such as Partridge's Usage and Abusage or Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage.

    I get the impression that these also suffer, to some extent, from the same problem of presenting the authors' personal style and preferences as absolute rules of English.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    "The elements of writing." It's a grammar book
    I assume you mean The Elements of Style? As the title suggests, it is a style book, not grammar. I have never seen it but linguists seem pretty dismissive of it in general.
    No. It's "The Elements of Writing.

    Elements of Writing : Course 3, Grade 9 - Kinne... | Rent 9780030471445 | 0030471443
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Do you have a problem with "He will have painted the walls by tomorrow"?
    How about "He has to have painted the walls by 4 o'clock"?
    Not on first glance. at least the first one. the second one seems funny...

    Damn it, now they both sound weird.
    They're both fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TridentBlue View Post
    "He must have painted the walls" must means no other possibilities are possible, so that that thing is forced to be true, there are not options.
    Unless it is found out that he did no such thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    "He must have painted the walls by tomorrow."
    This sounds very slightly unnatural to me. I would be more likely to say, "He must have the walls painted by tomorrow."

    Nothing else to add.
    Not a native English speaker. But this one sounds to me like the one saying it implies that the painter is lazy or has used way too much time finnishing the painting.
    "He must have painted the walls by tomorrow" indirectly implies that the painting is overdue, the painter is slow - or obstacles not mentioned are in the way of finnishing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    "He must have painted the walls by tomorrow."
    This sounds very slightly unnatural to me. I would be more likely to say, "He must have the walls painted by tomorrow."

    Nothing else to add.
    Not a native English speaker. But this one sounds to me like the one saying it implies that the painter is lazy or has used way too much time finnishing the painting.
    "He must have painted the walls by tomorrow" indirectly implies that the painting is overdue, the painter is slow - or obstacles not mentioned are in the way of finnishing it.
    That's certainly one (correct) way of interpreting it.
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    Nima - pay no attention to these illiterates.
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