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Thread: solving a bully problem

  1. #1 solving a bully problem 
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    what are some ways to change or add to current education system to curb bullying in schools?

    may the answer(s) be among cameras, or guards?

    would an intricate subject be added to courses (like math or reading) to promote proper behaviors?

    is the issue based on society in which policies must be put in place?


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    Find out what issues at home are affecting them on a psychological level and causing them to act out. Take measures to correct these problems if possible. If necessary, report issues to local law enforcement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Find out what issues at home are affecting them on a psychological level and causing them to act out. Take measures to correct these problems if possible. If necessary, report issues to local law enforcement.
    does that mean the measures taken (as you have suggested) should be added duties to the schools themselves?
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    Is it not the responsibility of the schools to ensure the welfare of its students by responsibly reporting potentially dangerous behaviors of some students?
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    The problem I used to see is that schools just didn't care about bullying.
    I think that the solution is for schools to actually realise that bullying is detrimental to both their pupils and their school.
    Maybe then they would do something.

    But ultimately, I think it has to be something that we, as a society, act against.
    Some of the schools' indifference is led by the parents'/public's own indifference.
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    It's called the crime of stalking in the real world; why schools hesitate to admit this is beyond me. Meanwhile schools do really, REALLY stupid stuff like suspending a 6yo boy for kissing a girl who also likes him, calling it sexual harassment. Go ahead, put him on a sex registry list, while a 12yo girl is hanging herself in her closet because the real sickos students stalk her 24/7. These sickos even go as far as saying on social websites after such tragedies that they don't care. If that's not psychopathic, then I don't know what is — and at such an early age.

    What to do is recognize it for the crime that it is. Make the PARENTS responsible for their underage children. Make the parents pay to put their kids in "troubled students" schools and go to counseling for psychopathy. The parents are responsible for ensuring that their troubled children have ZERO access to any communications technology. And when the parents fail, the state takes away their troubled children, and maybe the parents go to jail too. It's called zero tolerance.
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    It is all fault of those who are being bullied. They should develop skills and form groups to counter those bullying students effectively. It is they who have to decide wether to bully or being bullied or remain neutral.School/parents/law are ineffective untill they dont take charge of their situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir ir r aj View Post
    It is all fault of those who are being bullied.
    Blaming the victim is poor form.

    It's even poorer form than those who say bullies are just mean and violent by nature.

    There is almost always some kind of issue stemming from home that causes kids to act in a bullying fashion at school. Rather than take the "old school" approach of telling the victims to just stand up and fight the kid, we need to approach the problem in a way which seeks to understand the underlying issues rather than simply dole out punishment and blame.
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    There was a time when those who were social deviants were taken out of regular schools and put Into special schools that dealt with those kind of "misfits". That gave the misfits another chance at getting a education and prevented them from bothering others ever again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    There was a time when those who were social deviants were taken out of regular schools and put Into special schools that dealt with those kind of "misfits". That gave the misfits another chance at getting a education and prevented them from bothering others ever again.
    It also ensured that "misfits" were treated as incapable of performing alongside "normal" students. It set them aside as either stupid, or aggressive, or deviant and failed to address the fact that many of these kids were good kids who were simply unable to deal with their personal struggles in a manner which respected other students around them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    There was a time when those who were social deviants were taken out of regular schools and put Into special schools that dealt with those kind of "misfits". That gave the misfits another chance at getting a education and prevented them from bothering others ever again.
    It also ensured that "misfits" were treated as incapable of performing alongside "normal" students. It set them aside as either stupid, or aggressive, or deviant and failed to address the fact that many of these kids were good kids who were simply unable to deal with their personal struggles in a manner which respected other students around them.
    It is not at all enough to make the bullies alone responsible, the bullied must also stand up to bully-ism. What I mean is the problem is a three pronged problem, one the parents, two the bully, and three the bullied. I do not think the teacher should be involved unless in the case of bad behavior in class. I think children who cannot understand the order of schools should be sent back to the parent to correct the malady.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    There was a time when those who were social deviants were taken out of regular schools and put Into special schools that dealt with those kind of "misfits". That gave the misfits another chance at getting a education and prevented them from bothering others ever again.
    It also ensured that "misfits" were treated as incapable of performing alongside "normal" students. It set them aside as either stupid, or aggressive, or deviant and failed to address the fact that many of these kids were good kids who were simply unable to deal with their personal struggles in a manner which respected other students around them.
    No it did not. It gave the misfits an opportunity to learn from their wrongdoings and if they could behave themselves in that school they could receive a diploma if they passed the tests. That school was to help those who couldn't "adjust" to "normal" schools by having special teachers to handle them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    It is not at all enough to make the bullies alone responsible, the bullied must also stand up to bully-ism. What I mean is the problem is a three pronged problem, one the parents, two the bully, and three the bullied. I do not think the teacher should be involved unless in the case of bad behavior in class. I think children who cannot understand the order of schools should be sent back to the parent to correct the malady.
    I agree that people who are being bullied need to be educated as to the importance of reporting the activity of the bully rather than remaining silent. That having been said, I don't think you understand victim mentality very well if you're making the victim part of the problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    No it did not. It gave the misfits an opportunity to learn from their wrongdoings and if they could behave themselves in that school they could receive a diploma if they passed the tests. That school was to help those who couldn't "adjust" to "normal" schools by having special teachers to handle them.
    That's a very old mentality.

    I was once taken out of normal classes and put into special classes with other people like me (people who struggled to cope in a social environment). It did not help me. I was classified as learning disabled and it set my education back a decade. Taking these people out of the classroom and putting them into some kind of special environment only solidifies their belief that they do not belong. It is ultimately destructive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    It is not at all enough to make the bullies alone responsible, the bullied must also stand up to bully-ism. What I mean is the problem is a three pronged problem, one the parents, two the bully, and three the bullied. I do not think the teacher should be involved unless in the case of bad behavior in class. I think children who cannot understand the order of schools should be sent back to the parent to correct the malady.
    I agree that people who are being bullied need to be educated as to the importance of reporting the activity of the bully rather than remaining silent. That having been said, I don't think you understand victim mentality very well if you're making the victim part of the problem.
    I understand bully-ism, I have been bullied and I had to stand up to them. Although the victim did not create the environment it makes no difference, its like walking past a wasp nest and the wasp think you are going to disrupt them so they attack. If you don't react you will be stung. It would be nice to make the world a neutral place but it is not. They have an old saying " if you cant find trouble don't worry it will find you".
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    When I was growing up I lived in a pretty rough area, we actually lived right next door to one of the worst and most deprived areas in the country, bransholme in Hull, as you can probably imagine the schools in the area weren't too much better. Bullying was rife, there was absolutely no disipline whatsoever it wasn't much fun going to school and certainly not a place for learning anything academic anyway. Well after going through primary school and then into junior school in this enviroment my parents took both my brother and me out of the local school and placed us both into the church school, not because we were religious in anyway, because it had a far better reputation.

    The church school we went to was a junior school, it was about then that they started to change the education system and mean't that both myself and my brother who is a year and a half older than me both left this school at the same time to go onto the local senior school, alas their was no local church school. I was had just turned 13 when I left the church school after spending nearly 4 years there. I was totally unprepared for the shear hell of moving into the local senior school which one can only describe as utter nightmare, this school incidentally had a shocking reputation and was catered to the entire bransholme estate. It was here a finished my education, I didn't last a year at this school.

    But anyway I digress, the point of this story is explain how and why bullying simply didn't exist within the church school.
    When we got there we were first introduced to everybody else, placed in a class with children who simply didn't have time for bullying and wouldn't anyway because much of the class work was conducted in groups. Each child was also dependent on the efforts of their fellow group members which really encouraged working together, cooperation and helping each other.

    We were also assigned older children from the years above to help us settle in, they were made responsible for us so if we had ever had any problems we could always go to them for help, support and advice.

    But besides these active steps taken by the school there was also the expectation that each child must do their best, we were always being pushed and stretched to acheive more, this mean't we had alot on trying to do our, certainly no time for messing about during class. But also there so many extra curricular activities provided to encourage us to work together and keep us occupied, things like, football, cricket, chess club, youth club etc..., no matter what your interests there was always something the school provided to keep you busy and not having any money and coming from a poor background this made a real difference.

    The real point here is the school really cared about each and everyone of us, if we were being bullied in anyway then it would have been picked straight away by the school and stamped out. It was a safe enviroment that had disipline and fostered both learning and cooperation.

    I think this is the real key to the prevention of bullying, having teachers that really care and notice when their students have problems, that can maitain proper displine and respect for the teachers and fellow pupils and teach children to respect themselves and their own value in society, that promotes a sense of self worth that will ensure children simply won't put up with being bullied.

    So yes schools are responsible, if bullying is occurring then the schools are not doing their job properly.
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    Ascended, I find it admirable when you have a school that goes the whole yard to protect the children however, in my view the school is a place where strict discipline should not be compromised. The first level of education is the one that starts at home, it should be well studied and no child should enter the school system until the class room behavioral benchmark is reached. This exam has more to do with parental responsibility for the child's behavior. The teacher or school should not be burdened with problems they did not and most times cannot correct.

    Most times these bullies are trying to hide something and for lack of self confidence they bully to cover it up. This should be picked up by parents and remedied.
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    I think this is the real key to the prevention of bullying, having teachers that really care and notice when their students have problems, that can maitain proper displine and respect for the teachers and fellow pupils and teach children to respect themselves and their own value in society, that promotes a sense of self worth that will ensure children simply won't put up with being bullied.

    So yes schools are responsible, if bullying is occurring then the schools are not doing their job properly.
    Absolutely.

    The best strategy yet devised is the There's No Such Thing As A Bystander approach. The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander: From Preschool to High School--How Parents and Teachers Can Help Break the Cycle of Violence by Barbara Coloroso


    I'm not so keen on these items which go into bystander-blaming rather than victim-blaming. It's not that passive bystanders are not "innocent", they just don't know what to do. Dr. Laura: Be the Anti-Bully: There's No Such Thing as an Innocent Bystander

    But even this will work only if the school staff and other adults take the issue seriously. If one lot says 'Kids will be kids' and another lot says 'Learn to stand up for yourself' they're going to undermine any kids who try to deal with bullying in a safe and effective way.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Ascended, I find it admirable when you have a school that goes the whole yard to protect the children however, in my view the school is a place where strict discipline should not be compromised. The first level of education is the one that starts at home, it should be well studied and no child should enter the school system until the class room behavioral benchmark is reached. This exam has more to do with parental responsibility for the child's behavior. The teacher or school should not be burdened with problems they did not and most times cannot correct.
    Hey I don't disagree about parents preparing their children before they enter school, we were lucky in this respect as my mother was a teacher, this being said the area in which I grew up in as I stated was right next to one of the worst deprevation spots in the country. The people there had no hope or jobs, crime was rife, muggings, burglary and violence an everyday occurance. What it means is most of the kids in this area were more concerned in learning how to survive than their classroom manners, which given the circumstances you have to figure is pretty understandable.

    Most parents will try and do their best for their kids and bring them up right but schools have to play their part as well, they have to set a standard and ensure their students are meeting it, every child is capable of acheivement if they are motivated and encouraged in the correct manner, if the children are failing then it's the schools that are letting them down, that's the bottom line.

    Good schools with good and caring teachers will always get the best out of their students, regardless of their actual ability.
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    Most times these bullies are trying to hide something and for lack of self confidence they bully to cover it up. This should be picked up by parents and remedied.
    This is simply not true. Most bullies are socially dominant. They have lots of friends. They maintain their status by bullying others and by encouraging their friends and offsiders and hangers on to take part in bullying or, at least, to refrain from interfering in bullying activities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Is it not the responsibility of the schools to ensure the welfare of its students by responsibly reporting potentially dangerous behaviors of some students?
    Oh, I agree with that, but how far does that reach? does it reach into homes? who would visit the homes or talk with parents about such conditions? as for now, there is no legal obligation for any school staff to ask parents about home conditions, is there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    The problem I used to see is that schools just didn't care about bullying.
    I think that the solution is for schools to actually realise that bullying is detrimental to both their pupils and their school.
    Maybe then they would do something.

    But ultimately, I think it has to be something that we, as a society, act against.
    Some of the schools' indifference is led by the parents'/public's own indifference.
    would this mean law suits and development of on-profits that take these things head on?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    Most parents will try and do their best for their kids and bring them up right but schools have to play their part as well, they have to set a standard and ensure their students are meeting it, every child is capable of acheivement if they are motivated and encouraged in the correct manner, if the children are failing then it's the schools that are letting them down, that's the bottom line.

    Good schools with good and caring teachers will always get the best out of their students, regardless of their actual ability.
    sometimes, it doesn't matter how much motivation you put into a kid, their still a**holes just because. what position of authority does the school have anyways if the parents are unwilling to act? if the parent is not a symbol of authority and discipline, then the schools will not be either.
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    imho schools have a responsibility to create and maintain a safe environment every bit as much as an employer has that responsibility.
    that being said:
    This about differences in the brain of a bully vs the brain of a "normal" person:

    When the aggressive youths watched people intentionally inflicting pain on another, the scan showed a response in the part of the brain associated with reward and pleasure. The youths who were not aggressive didn’t show the same brain response. The study, published in the current issue of the journal Biological Psychology, suggests that the brain’s natural impulse for empathy may be disrupted in the brain of a bully, leading to increased aggression.
    from
    http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/1...-a-bully/?_r=0

    just controling bullying within the confines of the school stops some of the damage inflicted on the brains of the bullied

    A new wave of research into bullying’s effects, however, is now suggesting something more than that — that in fact, bullying can leave an indelible imprint on a teen’s brain at a time when it is still growing and developing. Being ostracized by one’s peers, it seems, can throw adolescent hormones even further out of whack, lead to reduced connectivity in the brain, and even sabotage the growth of new neurons.

    These neurological scars, it turns out, closely resemble those borne by children who are physically and sexually abused in early childhood. Neuroscientists now know that the human brain continues to grow and change long after the first few years of life. By revealing the internal physiological damage that bullying can do, researchers are recasting it not as merely an unfortunate rite of passage but as a serious form of childhood trauma.
    but fails to address this potential underlying cause
    (operant conditioning? "a clockwork orange" anyone)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Is it not the responsibility of the schools to ensure the welfare of its students by responsibly reporting potentially dangerous behaviors of some students?
    Oh, I agree with that, but how far does that reach? does it reach into homes? who would visit the homes or talk with parents about such conditions? as for now, there is no legal obligation for any school staff to ask parents about home conditions, is there?
    The school does what it can within its power. They cannot mandate parenting practices, but they can inform the authorities if they believe the child is being abused. The school would certainly invite parents in to discuss their issues, but no, they would not go to the child's home.
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    sometimes, it doesn't matter how much motivation you put into a kid, their still a**holes just because. what position of authority does the school have anyways if the parents are unwilling to act? if the parent is not a symbol of authority and discipline, then the schools will not be either.
    But an a**hole is still a member of a social group. If the school uses the approach outlined in that book I mentioned earlier, the bully loses the social status that goes with bullying. Instead of gaining or maintaining their social position, persisting with bullying will result in decreasing social status when people are ready and willing to speak up and to act against it. Most teenagers tend to go along to get along. Bullying if it works, abstaining from bullying if that works better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Is it not the responsibility of the schools to ensure the welfare of its students by responsibly reporting potentially dangerous behaviors of some students?
    Oh, I agree with that, but how far does that reach? does it reach into homes? who would visit the homes or talk with parents about such conditions? as for now, there is no legal obligation for any school staff to ask parents about home conditions, is there?
    The school does what it can within its power. They cannot mandate parenting practices, but they can inform the authorities if they believe the child is being abused. The school would certainly invite parents in to discuss their issues, but no, they would not go to the child's home.
    Sometimes it's the parents that are the bullies, the teacher will try to curb it but the home environment does not follow up on the teachers prompt. Is bulling a parent problem, or a school control problem?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    The problem I used to see is that schools just didn't care about bullying.
    I think that the solution is for schools to actually realise that bullying is detrimental to both their pupils and their school.
    Maybe then they would do something.

    But ultimately, I think it has to be something that we, as a society, act against.
    Some of the schools' indifference is led by the parents'/public's own indifference.
    would this mean law suits and development of on-profits that take these things head on?
    I don't think law suits would make that much difference.
    We already have law suits about "sexual harassment at work" - but it doesn't seem to have done much more than make people cover their tracks better.
    I think, ironically, that educating people would probably be the best solution; educating people that bullying can be far more than just "boys will be boys".

    (I am thinking you meant "non-profits...)
    The UK mainly has non-profit schools (as well as private schools).
    I am not aware of any difference in bullying between public and private schools.
    The difference is how the schools are actually run, rather than who's paying the bills.
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    Instead of having P.E. be about sports, they should be about self-defense classes instead.

    It's a much more practical education.

    P.E. in my school didn't even teach anything, we just played soccer on the field. The teacher didn't even explain the rules and just assumed that we all already knew them.

    (I went to some s**tty school in the UK that was closed down a few years after I left, but several years too late to not ruin my childhood... If I had self-defense classes when I was a child I'd have f**king crippled all those a**holes who made my life hell at school. Try bullying someone when you're confined to a wheelchair and being fed through a tube. Me, bitter? Why would you say that?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    No it did not. It gave the misfits an opportunity to learn from their wrongdoings and if they could behave themselves in that school they could receive a diploma if they passed the tests. That school was to help those who couldn't "adjust" to "normal" schools by having special teachers to handle them.
    That's a very old mentality.

    I was once taken out of normal classes and put into special classes with other people like me (people who struggled to cope in a social environment). It did not help me. I was classified as learning disabled and it set my education back a decade. Taking these people out of the classroom and putting them into some kind of special environment only solidifies their belief that they do not belong. It is ultimately destructive.
    So you think that the "normal" students should have to cope with those "misfits" that create problems both in the classroom and on school grounds? There is social interaction at the "special" schools for those who cannot adjust to "normal" schooling. I'd rather those who need to get help should get that help at the "special ed" schools rather than disrupt others who want to learn at a regular school.

    That said I still think that after 6th grade everyone should be at home to do schoolwork there via computer with pop tests to be certain that the students are there doing the work. This way everyone would be able to learn at their own speed and not be ridiculed for their advanced or lacking understanding of what they are learning about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    (I am thinking you meant "non-profits...)
    The UK mainly has non-profit schools (as well as private schools).
    I am not aware of any difference in bullying between public and private schools.
    The difference is how the schools are actually run, rather than who's paying the bills.
    oh, yes. non-profits. but I was asking about companies the offer after school programs, during school programs, etc. that provide services for kids much as they would for adults in terms of group therapy/counseling, individual counseling, sports, camps, etc.

    for instance, local YMCA does afternoon sports during normal school days to hold tournaments which is open to all and try to make an influence on the school kids. there is also a local "boys home" for youths legally w/o guardians. staff work with these boys to work through school, live on their own (well - in a group home of sorts), and other things.

    this could be an additional step to allow an extra presence for both bully and victim. or anyone. when teachers are on brake or out of school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Instead of having P.E. be about sports, they should be about self-defense classes instead.

    It's a much more practical education.

    P.E. in my school didn't even teach anything, we just played soccer on the field. The teacher didn't even explain the rules and just assumed that we all already knew them.
    physical education is important part of growing up, but it does seem to be the most "abused" curriculum by both student and teacher alike. i had to run every Monday or Friday (it switched depending on the year you were). well, I ran - cause I didn't want an F in P.E. how stupid would that have been?

    However, there were still kids who walked. I could understand a difference in physical ability, but if you're the sport star or popular kid, it didn't matter. likewise, the sports became unruly as the higher ups would still pick on others. some even committing fouls - though nothing happened afterwards. just a laugh and restart while the kid who just got checked (like hockey, though during a football (soccer) game. worst, during hockey - they would just hit you with the sticks) pulls himself up.

    it would seem the "weaker" kids were always picked on or socially awkward/distance. self defense may bring those things out more, could they? not everyone is as agile as others.

    plus, though the presence of knowing - everyone can be beaten - you may still have those who are better than everyone committ to bullying more so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Sometimes it's the parents that are the bullies, the teacher will try to curb it but the home environment does not follow up on the teachers prompt. Is bulling a parent problem, or a school control problem?
    I would presume both. as said earlier, schools have a liability just as much as a work place does.

    under this analogy, then would it be appropriate for criminal charges being pressed as well as fines...or would that prompt "hiding" as said earlier?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    When I was growing up I lived in a pretty rough area, we actually lived right next door to one of the worst and most deprived areas in the country, bransholme in Hull, as you can probably imagine the schools in the area weren't too much better. Bullying was rife, there was absolutely no disipline whatsoever it wasn't much fun going to school and certainly not a place for learning anything academic anyway. Well after going through primary school and then into junior school in this enviroment my parents took both my brother and me out of the local school and placed us both into the church school, not because we were religious in anyway, because it had a far better reputation.

    The church school we went to was a junior school, it was about then that they started to change the education system and mean't that both myself and my brother who is a year and a half older than me both left this school at the same time to go onto the local senior school, alas their was no local church school. I was had just turned 13 when I left the church school after spending nearly 4 years there. I was totally unprepared for the shear hell of moving into the local senior school which one can only describe as utter nightmare, this school incidentally had a shocking reputation and was catered to the entire bransholme estate. It was here a finished my education, I didn't last a year at this school.

    But anyway I digress, the point of this story is explain how and why bullying simply didn't exist within the church school.
    When we got there we were first introduced to everybody else, placed in a class with children who simply didn't have time for bullying and wouldn't anyway because much of the class work was conducted in groups. Each child was also dependent on the efforts of their fellow group members which really encouraged working together, cooperation and helping each other.

    We were also assigned older children from the years above to help us settle in, they were made responsible for us so if we had ever had any problems we could always go to them for help, support and advice.

    But besides these active steps taken by the school there was also the expectation that each child must do their best, we were always being pushed and stretched to acheive more, this mean't we had alot on trying to do our, certainly no time for messing about during class. But also there so many extra curricular activities provided to encourage us to work together and keep us occupied, things like, football, cricket, chess club, youth club etc..., no matter what your interests there was always something the school provided to keep you busy and not having any money and coming from a poor background this made a real difference.

    The real point here is the school really cared about each and everyone of us, if we were being bullied in anyway then it would have been picked straight away by the school and stamped out. It was a safe enviroment that had disipline and fostered both learning and cooperation.

    I think this is the real key to the prevention of bullying, having teachers that really care and notice when their students have problems, that can maitain proper displine and respect for the teachers and fellow pupils and teach children to respect themselves and their own value in society, that promotes a sense of self worth that will ensure children simply won't put up with being bullied.

    So yes schools are responsible, if bullying is occurring then the schools are not doing their job properly.
    how was the bullying stamped out?
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    under this analogy, then would it be appropriate for criminal charges being pressed as well as fines...or would that prompt "hiding" as said earlier?
    Criminal charges might not be required, but involving the police is exactly right for some of the violent and sexual assaults that occur within and beyond school boundaries.

    But even this strategy only works if the whole school, every teacher and every other staff member, took every single report of bullying and related inappropriate behaviour seriously. Knowing that serious consequences would only happen for specified acts just means that bullies would know the exact boundary not to overstep. Everything up to that point is fair game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert A. Heinlein, Star Shiptroopers
    “Both for practical reasons and for mathematically verifiable moral reasons, authority and responsibility must be equal - else a balancing takes place as surely as current flows between points of unequal potential. To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold a man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind idiocy. The unlimited democracies were unstable because their citizens were not responsible for the fashion in which they exerted their sovereign authority... other than through the tragic logic of history... No attempt was made to determine whether a voter was socially responsible to the extent of his literally unlimited authority. If he voted the impossible, the disastrous possible happened instead - and responsibility was then forced on him willy-nilly and destroyed both him and his foundationless temple.”
    so there needs to be a balance, and we know there is a problem. what is the fix? how might this look?

    idea:
    students cleaning the school grounds except for bathrooms, classrooms, and teacher lounges (not as form of punishment but responsibility).
    teachers upkeep their areas
    course(s) on philosophy and behavior as well as risk and reward [?](content dependent on age/school year)
    more courses committed to hands on physical activities in which are physically demanding as well as mental (e.g. science projects, shop class, etc.)
    courses taking place outside as well as inside
    music present during class, lunch, recess (classical).
    music class to perform during lunches [?]

    what are your ideas?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So yes schools are responsible, if bullying is occurring then the schools are not doing their job properly.
    how was the bullying stamped out?
    At my school if you stepped out of line you were spoken to by the teachers, the worst punishment that I knew of there was being sent to see the headmaster, but even then was just a dressing down, but I guess the point is it was enough. The children there, myself included, respected the teachers and they had the necessary authority and disipline so that when they told you to do something you did it, they simply wouldn't put up with anything less. But they made us feel that we wanted to do the right thing and not to be in trouble, it was more psychological than anything else.

    This was a very effective form of behavioral control and worked better than other forms of punishments at the other schools I've attended. If pupils wanted to be respected by their teachers then they had do as they were told, now if the teachers didn't care about their students they wouldn't have had the respect to be able to acheive this, but the point is they did care and that's what made the difference. When you stepped into a classroom your teacher knew straight away if you were having any problems because they were good teachers and took the time and effort to really understand their pupils.

    This is what really makes the difference when it comes to getting the best from people you have believe in them so that they don't want to let you down, when you can do this you don't need fancy methods of disipline you can teach people self displine and to recognise their own mistakes and learn from them.

    The biggest problem is where poor schools have teachers that just don't really care and perhaps only in it for the paycheck, they cannot command displine through respect because they don't respect their students and all the fancy displine methods in the world will fail when you have no respect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    ... the point is they did care and that's what made the difference. When you stepped into a classroom your teacher knew straight away if you were having any problems because they were good teachers and took the time and effort to really understand their pupils.

    This is what really makes the difference when it comes to getting the best from people you have believe in them so that they don't want to let you down, when you can do this you don't need fancy methods of disipline you can teach people self displine and to recognise their own mistakes and learn from them.

    The biggest problem is where poor schools have teachers that just don't really care and perhaps only in it for the paycheck, they cannot command displine through respect because they don't respect their students and all the fancy displine methods in the world will fail when you have no respect.
    AMEN to that.

    I really do not care what job anyone has, if they dont "care" then mediocrity is their life's goal. Such a shame. Such a waste.
    .............
    may I suggest that if given the above about the brains of bullies is accurate, then "punishment" of bullies may most likely be completely innefective?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    ... the point is they did care and that's what made the difference. When you stepped into a classroom your teacher knew straight away if you were having any problems because they were good teachers and took the time and effort to really understand their pupils.

    This is what really makes the difference when it comes to getting the best from people you have believe in them so that they don't want to let you down, when you can do this you don't need fancy methods of disipline you can teach people self displine and to recognise their own mistakes and learn from them.

    The biggest problem is where poor schools have teachers that just don't really care and perhaps only in it for the paycheck, they cannot command displine through respect because they don't respect their students and all the fancy displine methods in the world will fail when you have no respect.
    AMEN to that.

    I really do not care what job anyone has, if they dont "care" then mediocrity is their life's goal. Such a shame. Such a waste.
    .............
    may I suggest that if given the above about the brains of bullies is accurate, then "punishment" of bullies may most likely be completely innefective?
    I really don't honestly know the answer to that, what I can say is I'm not a massive fan of punishment anyway. I think education is better, helping people to understand for themselves that something is wrong, I would usually think if people are capable of learning and accepting things themselves it has to be more effective than forcing people to comply.

    Whether punishment can put people in a state of mind where they are more compliant and willing to try and learn I guess is up for debate with people both for and against, but ultimately the objective has to be about getting the message across so that people themselves are aware of their own behavior and a capable of controlling it.
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    what are some ways to change or add to current education system to curb bullying in schools?
    may the answer(s) be among cameras, or guards?
    From my own observations I'm pretty sure that this phenomenon is intentionally tolerated/ignored by authorities for some reasons. It happens in many countries, not in U.S. only. Usually bullies rarely make a victim handicapped and practically never receive any punishment. I have suspicion that this practice is tolerated by authorities to show to children that the world they live in is not completely based on law, so children would accustom to it and transition to adult life in our corrupted world would come without lot of surprises and violent excesses. In one word it is used to scary/subdue children. What is concerning to methods to fight this issue, I do not think that any measures which would be proposed to take place within schools itself such as guards or cameras will ever take place because authorities will unlikely ever accept them. Do you think if they would, if would have not been done already and ever? The most efficient solution would be step by step switch to distance/telecommuted style of education. Modern technologies allow children to stay home and watch teacher on a screen and teacher could have screens which show every pupil and ask them questions in real time.
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    anyone remember how the violent guys got to be that way in "a clockwork orange"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    what are some ways to change or add to current education system to curb bullying in schools?
    may the answer(s) be among cameras, or guards?
    From my own observations I'm pretty sure that this phenomenon is intentionally tolerated/ignored by authorities for some reasons. It happens in many countries, not in U.S. only. Usually bullies rarely make a victim handicapped and practically never receive any punishment. I have suspicion that this practice is tolerated by authorities to show to children that the world they live in is not completely based on law, so children would accustom to it and transition to adult life in our corrupted world would come without lot of surprises and violent excesses. In one word it is used to scary/subdue children. What is concerning to methods to fight this issue, I do not think that any measures which would be proposed to take place within schools itself such as guards or cameras will ever take place because authorities will unlikely ever accept them. Do you think if they would, if would have not been done already and ever? The most efficient solution would be step by step switch to distance/telecommuted style of education. Modern technologies allow children to stay home and watch teacher on a screen and teacher could have screens which show every pupil and ask them questions in real time.
    it is better to involve children in an environment to allow positive social interactions than zero. the issue begins at home, anyhow.
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    the issue begins at home, anyhow.
    That's trivially true. But research has shown that everyone, children included, understand that different behaviours are required in different situations. People who dance all night at a party behave perfectly appropriately at a funeral or a baptism. People who are physically rough and tough on a playing field are also perfectly capable of such appropriate behaviour.

    Children are well able to understand that things they're permitted or encouraged to do in their own homes are out of bounds when they're elsewhere. No feet on the couch at granny's house, no throwing balls in Tim's mum's house, no running/ shouting/ talking with your mouth full in Mr and Mrs Neighbour's house - even though at home your parents take no notice or laugh like a drain when you do these things.

    Children are perfectly capable of responding to a behaviour requirement at school so long as that rule or requirement is explicitly stated and consistently enforced. No matter how different it might be from their home environment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    the issue begins at home, anyhow.
    That's trivially true. But research has shown that everyone, children included, understand that different behaviours are required in different situations. People who dance all night at a party behave perfectly appropriately at a funeral or a baptism. People who are physically rough and tough on a playing field are also perfectly capable of such appropriate behaviour.

    Children are well able to understand that things they're permitted or encouraged to do in their own homes are out of bounds when they're elsewhere. No feet on the couch at granny's house, no throwing balls in Tim's mum's house, no running/ shouting/ talking with your mouth full in Mr and Mrs Neighbour's house - even though at home your parents take no notice or laugh like a drain when you do these things.

    Children are perfectly capable of responding to a behaviour requirement at school so long as that rule or requirement is explicitly stated and consistently enforced. No matter how different it might be from their home environment.
    I do not agree. I've seen kids and adults alike throw trash on public property, all while being asked if they would do the same within or outside their own home - have answered, "no." I worked as a coach at a school once, for P.E. At recess a group of kids would toss milk cartons over plywood into an area between portable buildings. Regardless of how I would respond and the detention given...they would be doing the same thing the next day. They admitted not being allowed to do the same at home. Some admitted being hit for such things.

    Instead, the response seems to be from their peers, or from the social environment. Not that the "rules" are the rules and therefore are enforced, therefore the kid will follow. However, fellow peers and authority respond and provide social pressure to act according to the rules (or in some cases against). In which the kids recognize this pressure and respond by what they feel is best.

    I agree that there must be constancy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I think this is the real key to the prevention of bullying, having teachers that really care and notice when their students have problems, that can maitain proper displine and respect for the teachers and fellow pupils and teach children to respect themselves and their own value in society, that promotes a sense of self worth that will ensure children simply won't put up with being bullied.

    So yes schools are responsible, if bullying is occurring then the schools are not doing their job properly.
    Absolutely.

    The best strategy yet devised is the There's No Such Thing As A Bystander approach. The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander: From Preschool to High School--How Parents and Teachers Can Help Break the Cycle of Violence by Barbara Coloroso


    I'm not so keen on these items which go into bystander-blaming rather than victim-blaming. It's not that passive bystanders are not "innocent", they just don't know what to do. Dr. Laura: Be the Anti-Bully: There's No Such Thing as an Innocent Bystander

    But even this will work only if the school staff and other adults take the issue seriously. If one lot says 'Kids will be kids' and another lot says 'Learn to stand up for yourself' they're going to undermine any kids who try to deal with bullying in a safe and effective way.

    I have to agree with this. The best way to ensure the children aren't bullied is to make sure none of them fall through the cracks of the social networks that form among children. If that means the teacher must create and sustain a social network or "clique" of their own and bring all the misfit kids into it, then well........ maybe we should start including that in their training so they know how to do so.

    If a kid is part of a large enough "clique" that stands together whenever one of its members is threatened, then a bully isn't going to target them. They're not easy prey. (Most bullies will shy away from a real fight.)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    The problem I used to see is that schools just didn't care about bullying.
    I think that the solution is for schools to actually realise that bullying is detrimental to both their pupils and their school.
    Maybe then they would do something.

    But ultimately, I think it has to be something that we, as a society, act against.
    Some of the schools' indifference is led by the parents'/public's own indifference.
    would this mean law suits and development of on-profits that take these things head on?
    I don't think law suits would make that much difference.
    We already have law suits about "sexual harassment at work" - but it doesn't seem to have done much more than make people cover their tracks better.
    I think, ironically, that educating people would probably be the best solution; educating people that bullying can be far more than just "boys will be boys".

    (I am thinking you meant "non-profits...)
    The UK mainly has non-profit schools (as well as private schools).
    I am not aware of any difference in bullying between public and private schools.
    The difference is how the schools are actually run, rather than who's paying the bills.
    I've seen this work too. A lot of bullies are the children of wealthy parents. Suggest, even for a moment, that you think a financial law suit needs to be filed over their kid's behavior, and they'll put the fear of death into their kid so fast.... Your kid will get a very sheepish apology, and the bully will leave them alone for the rest of their life.

    The important thing is, if you're going to threaten to file a suit, name a specific act their child has already committed which you think is worthy of a suit. Preferably one that was either documented, or witnessed by a lot of people. Sometimes it can be a lucky thing if the bully takes things too far.
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    Instead, the response seems to be from their peers, or from the social environment. Not that the "rules" are the rules and therefore are enforced, therefore the kid will follow.
    And that's the reality that schools have to allow for.

    If they don't have clear, explicit, enforced rules, the kids will make their own - which are most unlikely to be what the school (or anyone else) would have wanted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert A. Heinlein, Star Shiptroopers
    “Both for practical reasons and for mathematically verifiable moral reasons, authority and responsibility must be equal - else a balancing takes place as surely as current flows between points of unequal potential. To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold a man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind idiocy. The unlimited democracies were unstable because their citizens were not responsible for the fashion in which they exerted their sovereign authority... other than through the tragic logic of history... No attempt was made to determine whether a voter was socially responsible to the extent of his literally unlimited authority. If he voted the impossible, the disastrous possible happened instead - and responsibility was then forced on him willy-nilly and destroyed both him and his foundationless temple.”
    so there needs to be a balance, and we know there is a problem. what is the fix? how might this look?

    idea:
    students cleaning the school grounds except for bathrooms, classrooms, and teacher lounges (not as form of punishment but responsibility).
    teachers upkeep their areas
    course(s) on philosophy and behavior as well as risk and reward [?](content dependent on age/school year)
    more courses committed to hands on physical activities in which are physically demanding as well as mental (e.g. science projects, shop class, etc.)
    courses taking place outside as well as inside
    music present during class, lunch, recess (classical).
    music class to perform during lunches [?]

    what are your ideas?
    Hi Chero, I enjoyed Robert Heinlein's books as a child, can relate to some of the methods referred to above, and also provide some feedback.

    At primary school two of the smarter and physically able boys in my class were given the option of spending the last half hour of the school day doing a bin run, separating the paper and putting it near the (unlit) incinerator. The reward was that you could leave school as soon as you were finished.

    Being sent to the deputy heads office in high school to get six cuts of the 'cane' (for boys) was a very practical short course on philosophy and behavior as well as risk and reward. School corporal punishment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia covers the basic process. As only giving boys the cane at school might be considered as bullying (and possibly entrench vicious cycles of mysogyny and misandry in later life (if they weren't already entrenched domestically)), is the real solution to ban the cane altogether or to make corporal punishment fairer by including females? Somehow I think Robert Heinlein would have preferred the latter over the former judging from this book.

    The use of classical music in malls and shopping centers shows how music can be used to move people on so it may be of some use in schools for getting students out on the playing fields (unless they liked classical music so more thought is needed on the best playlist).
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    The use of classical music in malls and shopping centers shows how music can be used to move people on
    Do I remember hearing years ago about a local council - England I think - who wanted to move rowdy young people away from public areas, playgrounds, certain streets and the like in the middle of the night, so they played a random selection of crooners like Dean Martin and Perry Como over strategically placed loudspeakers? Seeing as popular taste at the time was neither soft nor slow nor romantic, these groups found other places to hang out where their personal preferences were not affronted.

    Even if it's an urban myth, it sounds like a good idea for all sorts of problems - schools included.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The use of classical music in malls and shopping centers shows how music can be used to move people on
    Do I remember hearing years ago about a local council - England I think - who wanted to move rowdy young people away from public areas, playgrounds, certain streets and the like in the middle of the night, so they played a random selection of crooners like Dean Martin and Perry Como over strategically placed loudspeakers? Seeing as popular taste at the time was neither soft nor slow nor romantic, these groups found other places to hang out where their personal preferences were not affronted.

    Even if it's an urban myth, it sounds like a good idea for all sorts of problems - schools included.

    I like that idea, it offers a solution based on allowing the children to make their own decision based on their preferences, I think if people make their own choices it's better than being forced to do something. If using force, once that force goes then problems will return with no lessons learned, when people make their own choices they learn to do the right things and once a lesson is learned it doesn't need force or threat to maintain it.

    I'm still of the opinion that most children naturally want to behave, they want to do the right things and don't like being in trouble, so if you can allow them to be happy, feel safe & comfortable and be rewarded for behaving well then you don't need any fancy punishments. If they have plenty of positive activities to keep them occupied then most children simply won't want to or have the time to misbehave.

    So control by reward seems to work best, more carrot less stick is the approach I would favour. When the children are behaving give them plenty of praise and give them plenty of opportunities to take part in activities that they enjoy, can be successful at and will help them learn. People like to repeat positive experiences so if you can make good behaviour a positive experience for every child you have far less problems.
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    As re the above quoted brain of a bully study
    When I was in highschool, the bullies hung out as a pack---and the leader was indeed a rich kid.
    It would be nice to see if the pleasure centers of a bully's brain light up when witnessing one of their pack members in pain.

    From personal experience-------first day of highschool I smacked that lead bully on the side of his head with my crutch, and none of the bullies bothered me for the next 4 years
    Did my action disrupt their feeling of pleasure by seeing one of their own suffer?

    Is being a bully a psychological disorder?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So control by reward seems to work best, more carrot less stick is the approach I would favour. When the children are behaving give them plenty of praise and give them plenty of opportunities to take part in activities that they enjoy, can be successful at and will help them learn. People like to repeat positive experiences so if you can make good behaviour a positive experience for every child you have far less problems.
    We've been working on that approach for the past 20 years or so in Australia and the outcomes are not exactly the utopia that was expected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurieag View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So control by reward seems to work best, more carrot less stick is the approach I would favour. When the children are behaving give them plenty of praise and give them plenty of opportunities to take part in activities that they enjoy, can be successful at and will help them learn. People like to repeat positive experiences so if you can make good behaviour a positive experience for every child you have far less problems.
    We've been working on that approach for the past 20 years or so in Australia and the outcomes are not exactly the utopia that was expected.
    I guess then it comes down to type of society you wish to create, do you choose to abandon the concept of positive reinforcement when the desired results are not achieved or do you uphold your principles and instead perhaps look at improving the application methodology instead. Ultimately the end result must have a bearing of the direction in which a society will move, for a generation conditioned in obedience through fear can never truely be as free as one that has learned good behaviour by making choices that have proved beneficial.

    But the real issue here is responsibility, if you can teach people to be responsible for themselves they can correct there own behaviour, if you have to resort to fear of consequences then you are only achieving the objective through fear, a short term measure at best as most people will become immune to this over time.

    So really what do you want, a society of people that don't behave badly or commit crime because they believe it to be wrong, or a society of people that don't behave badly because they are scared of the consequences?
    Last edited by Ascended; December 25th, 2013 at 07:58 PM. Reason: typo
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    We've been working on that approach for the past 20 years or so in Australia and the outcomes are not exactly the utopia that was expected.
    No, we haven't. We've been "working" on telling children than anything and everything they do is OK. That is an overstatement, but it's not as far off the mark as it should be.

    Most people seem unable to apply judgement and discretion to the way they "support" children generally and as students in particular. I remember being horrified when a (tuition) student of mine was being bullied at school. One child in particular was absolutely horrible, but he wasn't the only one. What was the bullying about? He was being teased, attacked and insulted ... because his mother was dying of cancer.

    What did the school do about the grandparents complaints? They made a lot of soothing noises that the child, the family and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all should Make Allowances for this other child, the main bully, because he came from a Difficult Family Situation and we're Trying To Help Him. ppffffftt

    And this situation wasn't the only one where the reason tuition was needed was that the school was basically abandoning one child to the misery of bullying for the sake of one or more other children With Difficulties. This was simply the very worst open acknowledgement that that was exactly what they were doing. The idea that many children Have Difficulties At Home which may or may not be known to the school and it's the school's job to provide a safe and supportive learning environment for the whole group despite this eternal truth is a deeply difficult one for too many school administrations and for too many individual teachers.

    The techniques of praise for real effort and real achievement - no matter what it might be - while maintaining strict behaviour rules for everyone involved seem to be beyond professional trained teachers. Why people expect untrained parents with more than one child to deal with (or with a very difficult child to manage) to do any better is a bit of a mystery to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    We've been working on that approach for the past 20 years or so in Australia and the outcomes are not exactly the utopia that was expected.
    No, we haven't. We've been "working" on telling children than anything and everything they do is OK. That is an overstatement, but it's not as far off the mark as it should be.

    Most people seem unable to apply judgement and discretion to the way they "support" children generally and as students in particular. I remember being horrified when a (tuition) student of mine was being bullied at school. One child in particular was absolutely horrible, but he wasn't the only one. What was the bullying about? He was being teased, attacked and insulted ... because his mother was dying of cancer.

    What did the school do about the grandparents complaints? They made a lot of soothing noises that the child, the family and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all should Make Allowances for this other child, the main bully, because he came from a Difficult Family Situation and we're Trying To Help Him. ppffffftt
    There are lots of ways to put a stop to a bully without actually harming them. It's unfortunate that an administration would treat it as an unavoidable dichotomy.

    Certainly the kid doing the bullying doesn't gain by being allowed to bully either. It perhaps makes them feel better for a moment, but it's hardly therapy to abuse someone else. If anything it reinforces their own feeling of powerlessness, seeing another powerless before them.


    The techniques of praise for real effort and real achievement - no matter what it might be - while maintaining strict behaviour rules for everyone involved seem to be beyond professional trained teachers. Why people expect untrained parents with more than one child to deal with (or with a very difficult child to manage) to do any better is a bit of a mystery to me.
    I don't think positive or negative reinforcement will solve it. Bullies are insecure people. It's a compulsion, not a thought out and practical decision. In a way not even based out of self interest.

    The trick is to quit trying to solve the underlying problem. You can't. (At least without a whole lot more resources than you'll ever have at your disposal.)

    Contain the bully without harming them and your school will always be remembered by that bully as one of only a few places where they truly felt safe. A place where they could fully intend to act out, yet fail to, and still not be harmed.
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    It would teach children that humans aren't always nice haha...

    Some bullying is overstated IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    It would teach children that humans aren't always nice haha...
    .
    I would agree except that, in the adult world, pretty much everyone is nice most of the time. If they're not, then they don't go far in life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    It would teach children that humans aren't always nice haha...
    .
    I would agree except that, in the adult world, pretty much everyone is nice most of the time. If they're not, then they don't go far in life.
    Unless they're CEOs or politicians.
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    I like Flick Montana’s suggestion. Also, I think that it would be wise if schools set up seminars, for parents and their children, to periodically attend to become further educated on the problems of bullying, and potentialsolutions. It’s not just the role of teachers and students, but also theparents/guardians of students need to become involved to ensure that schoolsare safe places for everyone. Creative and supportive workshops for kids during school hours, teaching them how to better identify and potentially help prevent bullying, etc…would also be a step in a positive direction. I also think it’s important for schools, parents, and law enforcement to take online bullying very seriously, as that is where it continues, long after school lets out…and kids who are bullied often struggle with ways to quietly cope with perpetual bullying, on their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So really what do you want, a society of people that don't behave badly or commit crime because they believe it to be wrong, or a society of people that don't behave badly because they are scared of the consequences?
    Considering that this thread is about solving a bully problem, don't you think that a massive drop in international educational rankings and , not to mention an increasing school bullying problem, is sounding an alarm that something is grossly wrong with what we are doing?
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    I saw a school bully, who had some definite issues, beat up and break he arm of a student.

    There was no remorse.

    Some bullying is from a "social" source of cliquey control groups.

    Sometimes, however, bullying is from a student who has psychopathic leanings.

    I never ever ever ever in my life, thought I would see such evil joy in another human being who had just broken a really nice kid's arm.

    It was past creepy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurieag View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So really what do you want, a society of people that don't behave badly or commit crime because they believe it to be wrong, or a society of people that don't behave badly because they are scared of the consequences?
    Considering that this thread is about solving a bully problem, don't you think that a massive drop in international educational rankings and , not to mention an increasing school bullying problem, is sounding an alarm that something is grossly wrong with what we are doing?
    That is perhaps one way of looking at it, what I think is of greater significance is the ability of the best schools to effectively deal with these problems, yet other schools are not. Surely this suggests that there are schools using effective ways to acheive good educational standards and combat any bullying problems and it's these schools we need to be learning from and applying these lessons to acheive better results across the board.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That is perhaps one way of looking at it, what I think is of greater significance is the ability of the best schools to effectively deal with these problems, yet other schools are not. Surely this suggests that there are schools using effective ways to acheive good educational standards and combat any bullying problems and it's these schools we need to be learning from and applying these lessons to acheive better results across the board.
    I think we already know where part of the solution lies.

    On the wiki link on corporal punishment it revealed that caning was banned in government schools in my state in 1988 while private schools can (and usually do) get their students to sign a compact that obliges the student to commit to certain obligations and responsibilities (or face defined repercussions if they do not meet those obligations) and gain higher educational standards and results.
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    Corporal punishment is NOT the answer to the bullying problem in schools. That's the lazy way out for adults to deal with it. (and a psychologically demeaning method of ''correcting'' students' behaviors, and gaining compliance)
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    Corporal punishment is NOT the answer to the bullying problem in schools. That's the lazy way out for adults to deal with it. (and a psychologically demeaning method of ''correcting'' students' behaviors, and gaining compliance)
    It's not much of an answer to anything. We never hit our kids, but I remember talking to a head teacher about it when we were looking for a school. At the time, corporal punishment was still technically legal in state schools here, but the dept had adopted a policy of hardly ever, preferably never. The head teacher said that he'd never actually used the cane, though some parents wanted him to. When one parent pushed the issue - a year 5 or 6 kid was transferring in - he said that that's what he did and he wanted the school to do the same, head teacher enquired about which bad behaviours had the kid now stopped as a result of this "discipline". The answer was a blank stare, obviously none at all.

    Using the cane or the fist was a substitute for effective behaviour management/ change rather than a means towards it.
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    I have an easy way of avoiding corporal punishment of any kind. I wake up, brush my teeth and slap myself across the face. Then I go and find something useful to do until my son has a question for me. If any sort of physical contact ever occurs between two people somebody is not allowing the other space. we all need time in the morning to figure out our own priorities so I like letting him tell me what that is if I can work it out over all his enthusaistic inquisitions
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    Report card day.

    Name called, and you walked up to the front of the class.

    You're grades were read aloud to all of your peers.....I had 53 of them.

    Anything below a C was a knuckle rap with a ruler.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Using the cane or the fist was a substitute for effective behaviour management/ change rather than a means towards it.
    That's the core of the problem, if current behaviour management methods actually worked there would be no bullying problems in schools. The methods used seem to work much better in the private school system than the government school system.
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    The methods used seem to work much better in the private school system than the government school system.
    The principal behaviour management tool that private schools use to maintain standards is expulsion of those who can't or won't fall into line.

    The state schools are left to pick up the slack for either unmanageable children or poor parenting (or both - though you can't really blame parents when children behave so badly that they bring out the worst in everyone around them).
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    [QUOTE=adelady;508634][QUOTE]


    The state schools are left to pick up the slack for either unmanageable children or poor parenting (or both - though you can't really blame parents when children behave so badly that they bring out the worst in everyone around them
    I certainly do not agree. Parents should raise their children to be respectful and not behave badly. If they can't do that, they shouldn't have had the children. There is no excuse for bad behaviour, (with the exception of medical issues), with children.

    I call it BAD PARENTING!
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    I certainly do not agree. Parents should raise their children to be respectful and not behave badly. If they can't do that, they shouldn't have had the children. There is no excuse for bad behaviour, (with the exception of medical issues), with children.
    That's true ... but not for all.

    I remember the Aha! moment when I read a piece by a child therapist about the usual presumption that all bad behaviour is because of bad parenting. This person agreed that most parents of badly behaved children were not very effective or totally counterproductive. Surprise, surprise. When the child's therapy or medication or whatever kicked in, the parents suddenly become better parents.

    Not so. What happens is that when children are unmanageable for specific reasons, you solve the specific problem and the child's behaviour becomes normal enough that normally-good-enough parents can actually deal with them. They're also under less stress so their temper and their mood is much improved. (This is much easier to see when parents have several children of whom only one is a problem.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I certainly do not agree. Parents should raise their children to be respectful and not behave badly. If they can't do that, they shouldn't have had the children. There is no excuse for bad behaviour, (with the exception of medical issues), with children.
    That's true ... but not for all.

    I remember the Aha! moment when I read a piece by a child therapist about the usual presumption that all bad behaviour is because of bad parenting. This person agreed that most parents of badly behaved children were not very effective or totally counterproductive. Surprise, surprise. When the child's therapy or medication or whatever kicked in, the parents suddenly become better parents.

    Not so. What happens is that when children are unmanageable for specific reasons, you solve the specific problem and the child's behaviour becomes normal enough that normally-good-enough parents can actually deal with them. They're also under less stress so their temper and their mood is much improved. (This is much easier to see when parents have several children of whom only one is a problem.)
    I can only agree on one thing.

    Bad parenting is not ALWAYS the problem. I have seen children, with good parents and good parenting OUT OF control even in their youthful years and in spite of how hard their parents tried.

    However, speaking generally that is not the norm.

    Good parenting, in the norm, results in children that have manners, a great sense of humor and the ability to speak with adults at around 12 and express themselves intelligently.

    I am not saying that that applies to all families, such as those children with disabilities, but in my observations of working with children....that is the norm. Great parenting shows....in most instances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The principal behaviour management tool that private schools use to maintain standards is expulsion of those who can't or won't fall into line.

    Have you seen the expulsion figures for the state schools lately? (they do the same thing (industry best practice for upping your kpi) When I was at high school suspensions were never heard of (because suspensions would disrupt the students education much more than any other punishment) and the only person I can ever recall being expelled had physically assaulted the deputy headmaster in a local shopping center.


    So "spare the rod and spoil the child" is not on but "spare the rod and spoil the child's education" is an acceptable alternative?

    That's a real insidious doozy of a punishment masked as a reward, especially for the child, when they all begin to pile up at the bottom of the state school system.
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    Which state? The biggest problem for state schools when dealing with persistent behaviour problems is the refusal by governments to fund proper remedial education facilities. There are some students who can never return to the general school population. Either because their history of exclusions from class or temporary suspensions from school means that they are so far behind educationally that they can never go into an age-appropriate classroom setting or because their behaviour needs such close minute-by-minute supervision ... or ... because they're a danger to themselves, to other students or to staff.
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    Quite often, parents are looked at to provide adequate environment for their kid's development (to raise respectful children). Part of that environment is school. How might parents control or influence school? being involved. require x amount of hours for minimum participation from parents at school (during school hours or after) as well as providing subsidies or benefits for going over and beyond that minimum number. "Prizes" may be given as subsidies or benefits for every milestone past. For example: if the minimal hours are met but the parent continues to volunteer/work at the school, then prices for some activities may be lowered or given for free.

    In private school's tuition is often lowered, but for state schools, the cost to participate in school (sports, clubs, meals) may be lowered or free. Such programs may be "payed" for or allocated through a ticket program in which parents may also purchase tickets in order to participate in the same programs. So when you have a kid lining up for lunch, they all give the same ticket even though the means in obtaining those tickets are not the same.

    More involvement in school from parents means more attention at home. Also, the program may be provided for students who go over and beyond at school as well. No tardy, no troubles, and good grades. this program may then reach into homes - giving the good deeds by students to benefit the home as well. this can be done by redeem policy in which these same tickets (or different) may be used to obtain food stamps, coupons, gift certificates. Not only that, but a raffle (or more) may be held after each semester (or period) in which gifts/prizes may be raffled off.

    This program could be paid for by transferring money from other programs, donations, and a percentage from school sales.

    Since all kids are documented within a country. require # of visitations that included parenting courses, child development courses, etc. these would occur through out the child's life. Or promote these things to occur during doctor visits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I saw a school bully, who had some definite issues, beat up and break he arm of a student.

    There was no remorse.

    Some bullying is from a "social" source of cliquey control groups.

    Sometimes, however, bullying is from a student who has psychopathic leanings.

    I never ever ever ever in my life, thought I would see such evil joy in another human being who had just broken a really nice kid's arm.

    It was past creepy!
    I had issues of this in my school days. in some cases, the bully just needs to realize what they are doing, but for the real unruly child...what can one do?

    Could counselors that have their own courses help teach proper etiquette as well as provide an environment for students to relax and release stress?
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    Could counselors that have their own courses help teach proper etiquette as well as provide an environment for students to relax and release stress?
    It's not etiquette that most of these kids need, it's impulse control. Watching an expert in educational behaviour modification is an amazing experience. It requires very small student numbers with almost as many, if not more, staff as students. Kids get introduced to "the way things are done here" and the teacher/counsellor/psychologist staff use exactly the same techniques with each child that they've decided on.

    It's often a strongly controlled approach. "You must put that down (let him go/ move away from here/ stand up straight/ whatever) before I've finished counting down from three. Three ... pause ... two ... pause ... ... Well done!" But they need months of this relentless, reliable consistent reinforcement with these kids to have any more than a passing influence on them. They want more of a result than a few adults later reflecting that they were the best teachers they'd ever had - but only for a few weeks.

    In my view these people are close to saints - though if we had more such facilities they'd probably just be the best of an entirely admirable bunch. It's not a job for the fainthearted or the weakling. You have to be physically able to get kids out of harm's way and able to hold down someone who's out of control and to skip out of the way of punches or objects thrown in your direction - without hurting anyone including yourself.

    There are short courses, a fortnight or less, for students to get a bit of re-education, some of which might fall into the etiquette category (when it's not about violence or vandalism or destruction of others' property). Mainly for year 9 and 10 boys who seem unable to work out for themselves that certain words and phrases are not acceptable to be directed at their fellow students as well as staff - mostly girls and women, but also accusations of "the gay" at boys or teachers they dislike or feel like upsetting just for the hell of it on a particular day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    what are some ways to change or add to current education system to curb bullying in schools?

    may the answer(s) be among cameras, or guards?
    Not all bullying is overt. Threats and injury aren't always explicit or physical. I think most girls have known this. Girls can and do hurt each other psychologically, as hard as a punch to the stomach. These bullies are difficult to spot and expose, because their thrill is in playing a game of social power, on other girls who are their "friends" or yearn to be. Outsiders won't decipher the backhanded messages that make a schoolgirl cry in the playground, we just see her "friends" apparently consoling her and figure she's "emotional". Then look she's walking home with her friends after school everything must be fine.

    During my son's school anti-bullying campaign I learned from students about one infamous teaching assistant, "the worst" by student consensus. She never raised a hand against a kid, but had a way of making kids sob. I saw this one in action grinding a stupefied child to the dirt with cutting analysis of his mental deficits, prompting him to agree, and grinding on and on like this even after he began to cry. She really believed she was helping kids to improve themselves, by acknowledging their faults. This public employee had a list of children she wasn't allowed contact with, basically a restraining order. I didn't have cause to get my son on that list, but I warned him "She's a bully." I suggested he help the kids she picked on.

    Meanwhile the anti-bullying message is telling kids overtly hurtful acts won't be tolerated. Yeah. We don't want to see any bullying.

    I don't want to be labeled indifferent because I rather open displays of hostility over covert ones. I fear we're going to a "War on..." situation, where by cracking down on the visible expression of a deeper problem, we drive it underground.

    Also maybe I'm a bit partisan because the hammer is aimed at what I guess we all feel is a "male" behavior. Is it really how you drive a classmate to tears that makes it unacceptable?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I saw a school bully, who had some definite issues, beat up and break he arm of a student.

    There was no remorse.

    Some bullying is from a "social" source of cliquey control groups.

    Sometimes, however, bullying is from a student who has psychopathic leanings.

    I never ever ever ever in my life, thought I would see such evil joy in another human being who had just broken a really nice kid's arm.

    It was past creepy!
    I had issues of this in my school days. in some cases, the bully just needs to realize what they are doing, but for the real unruly child...what can one do?

    Could counselors that have their own courses help teach proper etiquette as well as provide an environment for students to relax and release stress?
    He went to an enclosed Juvenile Center where he belonged. This was NOT his first offense! He was 15 years old. I am sure he became a killer.
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    I had other students, (I was in the administrative office side), who when they were about to get into a fight, I said their names, and, "Calm down now, please and lets not do that while I placed myself between them. One was 6'5 and one was about 6'2....not small young men. They looked down...(WAY DOWN) at me and they said, "OK, Mrs. *** and walked away from it.......that was a normal hormonal male teen fight scenario.......the other was not. It was a kid beating a kid smaller and purposely breaking his arm. That was EVIL!
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Which state? The biggest problem for state schools when dealing with persistent behaviour problems is the refusal by governments to fund proper remedial education facilities. There are some students who can never return to the general school population. Either because their history of exclusions from class or temporary suspensions from school means that they are so far behind educationally that they can never go into an age-appropriate classroom setting or because their behaviour needs such close minute-by-minute supervision ... or ... because they're a danger to themselves, to other students or to staff.
    Agreed, but unfortunately our special schools are for the intellectually disabled and not for those who have been intellectually disadvantaged by the system. That's why I consider the alternative as being less psychologically damaging, face up to your responsibilities and then get on with it, not put it off until the student is a lost cause with no future and no longer the education systems problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Corporal punishment is NOT the answer to the bullying problem in schools. That's the lazy way out for adults to deal with it. (and a psychologically demeaning method of ''correcting'' students' behaviors, and gaining compliance)
    I'm in complete agreement here, the idea of state legislated violence within a modern education system just quite frankly appals me, what's more it just won't work and would undoubtedly making problems such as bullying far worse.

    Corporal punishment uses violence to condition people through fear to behave in a certain manner, it does not teach people to understand for themselves what is right from wrong, furthermore it teaches people that they can get their own way through violence. Surely when it comes to a bullying problem we need to be sending out the exact opposite message.

    We need to educate young people so that they understand that it's wrong to force others to exceed to their wishes through violence, fear or intimidation and to this end we need a clear message and procedures that demonstrate this in practice from the top down.

    Teaching kids that they succeed by making people feel good and doing positive things should be our key goal, if we can successfully get this message across at an early stage then most of these kids shouldn't be adopting bullying methods later on. We as adults have a responsibility to set the right examples.
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    can you talk your way out of it ?

    you are this and that and I am going to do this and that to you...

    "love man love..."

    I mean that stuff works right...
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Corporal punishment is NOT the answer to the bullying problem in schools. That's the lazy way out for adults to deal with it. (and a psychologically demeaning method of ''correcting'' students' behaviors, and gaining compliance)
    And science tends to agree with you. The problem is adults come up with solutions that would usually work on adults, but don't consider whether it works on young people. The science shows people's judgement centers of the brain aren't even fully developed until they reach their early 20s...as a result young people usually DO NOT consider consequences at all before they do something, or if they do have trouble sorting out and prioritizing it correctly compared to other considerations such as popularity, or getting the lunch money, or looking uncool etc. Positive reinforcement for good behaviors, encouraging supportive group activities, teaching acceptance and tolerance and benevolent social skill building and deepen their moral values are far more effective than corporal punishment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Corporal punishment is NOT the answer to the bullying problem in schools. That's the lazy way out for adults to deal with it. (and a psychologically demeaning method of ''correcting'' students' behaviors, and gaining compliance)
    And science tends to agree with you. The problem is adults come up with solutions that would usually work on adults, but don't consider whether it works on young people. The science shows people's judgement centers of the brain aren't even fully developed until they reach their early 20s...as a result young people usually DO NOT consider consequences at all before they do something, or if they do have trouble sorting out and prioritizing it correctly compared to other considerations such as popularity, or getting the lunch money, or looking uncool etc. Positive reinforcement for good behaviors, encouraging supportive group activities, teaching acceptance and tolerance and benevolent social skill building and deepen their moral values are far more effective than corporal punishment.
    Lynx, what you are saying leads me to think what kind of upbringing did some of these parents have? As you know the children cannot be responsible for their own upbringing. Where do we start with what parents should teach their children?
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    I agree that examining the source (home , society) is interesting as a part of a (long term) solution that would focus on preventing the elements that cause some kids to feel the need to bully.

    Another part of the solution imo is education and participation.

    At my kids school, kids are participating in many aspects of school functions (that kids with training/supervision/guidance can assume) and all kids have had information about bullying.
    A potential bully, would know that, not only does every single kid know about bullying and will not let himself be bullied without seeking immediate help, but also knows that every other kids also know about it and will report him, and that he is likely to be quickly engaged by students with better interpersonal problem solving skills who in turn will either attempt to mediate/diffuse the situation or seek immediate help if need be.

    (In an environment that is suited for it, it is quite impressive what kids are capable of, very impressive to me anyway, and for them its normal/natural they don't even realize their behaviour is somewhat impressive)

    (There are posters about stopping bullying with a superhero cartoon figure, as a reminder I guess.)
    Last edited by icewendigo; March 5th, 2014 at 01:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I agree that examining the source (home , society) is interesting as a part of a (long term) solution that would focus on preventing the elements that cause some kids to feel the need to bully.

    Another part of the solution imo is education and participation.

    At my kids school, kids are participating in many aspects of school functions (that kids with training/supervision/guidance can assume) and all kids have had information about bullying.
    A potential bully, would know that, not only does every single kid know about bullying and will not let himself be bullied without seeking immediate help, but also knows that every other kids also know about it and will report him, and that he is likely to be quickly engaged by students with better interpersonal problem solving skills who in turn will either attempt to mediate/diffuse the situation or seek immediate help if need be.

    (In an environment that is suited for it, it is quite impressive what kids are capable of, and for them its normal/natural they don't realize their behaviour is impressive, because they do not know the old school of yore)
    When a child is a constant bully, someone be it parent, teacher, children, any adult, should report this behavior to some one who is responsible and the information should be reported to the parent for resolution to the problem. it is also important to realize that we all have a stake in that child's behavior.
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    " it is also important to realize that we all have a stake in that child's behavior."
    indeed
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    I have a really problem with the "bully" craze right now.
    That seems to be the buzz word as of late but the problem with it is that it is too subjective.
    anybody that feels hurt or violated, (whether real or not) can yell "bully" and the wolves come running.
    "oh the teacher told me my answer was wrong in front of the whole class. He always tells me when I'm wrong. I hate that guy he is a bully!"-not really.
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    I have a really problem with the "bully" craze right now.
    That seems to be the buzz word as of late but the problem with it is that it is too subjective.
    anybody that feels hurt or violated, (whether real or not) can yell "bully" and the wolves come running.
    "oh the teacher told me my answer was wrong in front of the whole class. He always tells me when I'm wrong. I hate that guy he is a bully!"-not really.
    A serious school education/training is not a word, it should have explanations, guidelines, examples/scenarios of various situations. (there is no buzz word craze or misguided/misinformed non-bulllying categorized as bullying cases in my area afaik).
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    I've spent a lot of time in different schools. There's considerable emphasis put on teacher, administrative and child teaching about bullying...what it looks like and doesn't...the different forms it can take from physical to social network....to ways to prevent it, recognize it and different things the victim can do about it, who to report to, and in at least half the schools well developed leadership roles so children can be advocates to support their peers. Of course my experiences are limited to two Counties in a relatively progressive State, but if it is widespread-I think there's little doubt that it not only creates a better teaching environment, but saves lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Corporal punishment is NOT the answer to the bullying problem in schools. That's the lazy way out for adults to deal with it. (and a psychologically demeaning method of ''correcting'' students' behaviors, and gaining compliance)
    And science tends to agree with you. The problem is adults come up with solutions that would usually work on adults, but don't consider whether it works on young people. The science shows people's judgement centers of the brain aren't even fully developed until they reach their early 20s...as a result young people usually DO NOT consider consequences at all before they do something, or if they do have trouble sorting out and prioritizing it correctly compared to other considerations such as popularity, or getting the lunch money, or looking uncool etc. Positive reinforcement for good behaviors, encouraging supportive group activities, teaching acceptance and tolerance and benevolent social skill building and deepen their moral values are far more effective than corporal punishment.
    Yep. Takes more effort, but the rewards will be far reaching, and sustaining.
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    When a child is a constant bully, someone be it parent, teacher, children, any adult, should report this behavior to some one who is responsible and the information should be reported to the parent for resolution to the problem. it is also important to realize that we all have a stake in that child's behavior.
    There's one important thing to bear in mind. It's not just about the child and their home life. One thing a few sociologists have worked out is that children behave differently in different environments.

    If a school has very different behaviour standards from home, kids accept that quite readily. Just as they know that they don't put their feet on the couch / throw balls inside / eat with their mouths open when they're at a relative's or a neighbour's house even when such behaviours are tolerated or even encouraged at home.

    When a student is a bully at school, the first thing to look at is the school and how it regulates or doesn't regulate behaviour generally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    When a child is a constant bully, someone be it parent, teacher, children, any adult, should report this behavior to some one who is responsible and the information should be reported to the parent for resolution to the problem. it is also important to realize that we all have a stake in that child's behavior.
    There's one important thing to bear in mind. It's not just about the child and their home life. One thing a few sociologists have worked out is that children behave differently in different environments.

    If a school has very different behaviour standards from home, kids accept that quite readily. Just as they know that they don't put their feet on the couch / throw balls inside / eat with their mouths open when they're at a relative's or a neighbour's house even when such behaviours are tolerated or even encouraged at home.

    When a student is a bully at school, the first thing to look at is the school and how it regulates or doesn't regulate behaviour generally.
    Yes I do agree, but on the other hand there has to be a norm of behavior especially in the school system. There can be room for differences in accordance with parental standards and schools definition of behavior. I think it is imperative for a international standard to be set if students travel to other countries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I have a really problem with the "bully" craze right now.
    That seems to be the buzz word as of late but the problem with it is that it is too subjective.
    anybody that feels hurt or violated, (whether real or not) can yell "bully" and the wolves come running.
    "oh the teacher told me my answer was wrong in front of the whole class. He always tells me when I'm wrong. I hate that guy he is a bully!"-not really.
    A serious school education/training is not a word, it should have explanations, guidelines, examples/scenarios of various situations. (there is no buzz word craze or misguided/misinformed non-bulllying categorized as bullying cases in my area afaik).
    I teach in california where these types of things are fads (at least at the districts I've been at) you've got medical diagnosis buzz words. 10 or so years ago it was ADD then ADHD. Now it's Autism which began to branch into Aspergers and is now back to just just Autism (probably cause the DSM IV has kicked Aspergers, out I think). For years it was "gangs" now it's Bullying but bullying will be gone in a few years replaced by the new "It" problem. This stuff definitely exists. Don't misunderstand me but highlighting it and putting it under the microscope, I think, diminishes the power of the problem. just like morons shouting Hitler and Nazi's whenever they think something isn't fair. Pretty soon the claim loses it's power. Do people get bullied? Sure. is it this epidemic that's sweeping the country? hardly. If we're all victims of bullies then who are the bullies? if everyone is a victim that means no one can be an instigator. Just seems like a nice little buzz word to threaten legal action or win a legal settlement, because someone may have intentionally/unintentionally made someone else uncomfortable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I agree that examining the source (home , society) is interesting as a part of a (long term) solution that would focus on preventing the elements that cause some kids to feel the need to bully.

    Another part of the solution imo is education and participation.

    At my kids school, kids are participating in many aspects of school functions (that kids with training/supervision/guidance can assume) and all kids have had information about bullying.
    A potential bully, would know that, not only does every single kid know about bullying and will not let himself be bullied without seeking immediate help, but also knows that every other kids also know about it and will report him, and that he is likely to be quickly engaged by students with better interpersonal problem solving skills who in turn will either attempt to mediate/diffuse the situation or seek immediate help if need be.

    (In an environment that is suited for it, it is quite impressive what kids are capable of, and for them its normal/natural they don't realize their behaviour is impressive, because they do not know the old school of yore)
    When a child is a constant bully, someone be it parent, teacher, children, any adult, should report this behavior to some one who is responsible and the information should be reported to the parent for resolution to the problem. it is also important to realize that we all have a stake in that child's behavior.
    Frankly, some parents don't give a damn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I have a really problem with the "bully" craze right now.
    That seems to be the buzz word as of late but the problem with it is that it is too subjective.
    anybody that feels hurt or violated, (whether real or not) can yell "bully" and the wolves come running.
    "oh the teacher told me my answer was wrong in front of the whole class. He always tells me when I'm wrong. I hate that guy he is a bully!"-not really.
    A serious school education/training is not a word, it should have explanations, guidelines, examples/scenarios of various situations. (there is no buzz word craze or misguided/misinformed non-bulllying categorized as bullying cases in my area afaik).
    I teach in california where these types of things are fads (at least at the districts I've been at) you've got medical diagnosis buzz words. 10 or so years ago it was ADD then ADHD. Now it's Autism which began to branch into Aspergers and is now back to just just Autism (probably cause the DSM IV has kicked Aspergers, out I think). For years it was "gangs" now it's Bullying but bullying will be gone in a few years replaced by the new "It" problem. This stuff definitely exists. Don't misunderstand me but highlighting it and putting it under the microscope, I think, diminishes the power of the problem. just like morons shouting Hitler and Nazi's whenever they think something isn't fair. Pretty soon the claim loses it's power. Do people get bullied? Sure. is it this epidemic that's sweeping the country? hardly. If we're all victims of bullies then who are the bullies? if everyone is a victim that means no one can be an instigator. Just seems like a nice little buzz word to threaten legal action or win a legal settlement, because someone may have intentionally/unintentionally made someone else uncomfortable.
    I worked in a Junior High School and a High School. There are always bullies, I do not think there are MORE of them. I think our awareness of them has increased due to media attention to a pre-existing social condition.
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    the morality of the bully is no different to that of the victim, or no "worse". why should it be?

    I was bullied, and the school didn't give a damn, so meh, such is life.. lol..
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    the morality of the bully is no different to that of the victim, or no "worse". why should it be?

    I was bullied, and the school didn't give a damn, so meh, such is life.. lol..
    Would you have appreciated it if the school had given a damn?
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    I found this today and wanted to pass it along.

    Glennon Doyle Melton calls it a “brilliant Love Ninja strategy,” and she proudly told the world about it.
    Melton, a writer and mother of three, learned about the secret method her son’s fifth teacher uses to help prevent bullying one day when she went to the teacher for math help. (Not for her son, she clarified on her blog — for herself, because she couldn't understand his math homework.) She discovered that Kathy Pitt was teaching her students something she felt was even more important than academics: kindness.
    On TODAY Wednesday, Pitt explained her method for gathering clues about which kids might be at risk, lonely or bullied. The veteran teacher passes out index cards and asks students to write the names of kids they want to get to know, and to nominate an exceptional classmate, all by secret ballot.
    “When I came up with the idea of simply distributing the cards, it really was to find out which children were belonging and which children were not,” said Pitt, who teaches at Sea Gate Elementary School in Naples, Fla.
    In the 15 years she has been using the cards, she has found that the names that don’t show up often are the ones she needs to monitor most.
    “I thought it was stunning,” Melton said.

    Mom shares teacher's 'brilliant' secret for fighting bullying, easing loneliness - TODAY.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    the morality of the bully is no different to that of the victim, or no "worse". why should it be?

    I was bullied, and the school didn't give a damn, so meh, such is life.. lol..
    Would you have appreciated it if the school had given a damn?
    er.. yes. but it was long ago, i don't care now.
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