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Thread: please excuse my ignorance

  1. #1 please excuse my ignorance 
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    ULTRA-amateur here.


    but i was ruminating............


    what if ALL matter is expanding?


    we know the universe is, humans are getting taller as they evolve, etc......
    if planets are expanding/getting bigger/"stretching" that would surely explain earthquakes, etc.
    and hey, it's not like we've been comparing the diameter of the Earth every year lately.


    so say, the space between atoms is increasing, planck length by planck length. every year (some force related to entropy?)...


    either this has already been answered a few hundred years ago, or deemed too stupid to consider.


    but i know nothing and would like a definitive answer.


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  3. #2  
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    what if ALL matter is expanding?
    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    humans are getting taller as they evolve, etc...
    No. In fact, we're the same as many of our ancestors and shorter than others.
    In recent times, human growth us due to the hormones in the food we eat.
    Comparing human growth to the Universe' expansion is beyond far-fetched...
    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    if planets are expanding/getting bigger/"stretching" that would surely explain earthquakes, etc.
    and hey, it's not like we've been comparing the diameter of the Earth every year lately.
    Actually we are and must. GPS and communication satellites require it. In addition to this, we have a pretty comprehensive theory on the Earth- well supported by a lot of observational evidence. The Earth is gaining slight mass, very slight, due to dust from space impacting the Earth every year.

    But that is not Expansion of Matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    so say, the space between atoms is increasing, planck length by planck length. every year (some force related to entropy?)...
    but i know nothing and would like a definitive answer.
    Nuclear force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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  4. #3  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    what if ALL matter is expanding?
    if all matter was expanding, then we would be expanding with it and possibly not be able to tell the difference
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  5. #4  
    Forum Freshman raising my hand's Avatar
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    First we must answer the question "Does everything expand or only matter?".
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    what if ALL matter is expanding?
    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    humans are getting taller as they evolve, etc...
    No. In fact, we're the same as many of our ancestors and shorter than others.
    In recent times, human growth us due to the hormones in the food we eat.
    Comparing human growth to the Universe' expansion is beyond far-fetched...
    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    if planets are expanding/getting bigger/"stretching" that would surely explain earthquakes, etc.
    and hey, it's not like we've been comparing the diameter of the Earth every year lately.
    Actually we are and must. GPS and communication satellites require it. In addition to this, we have a pretty comprehensive theory on the Earth- well supported by a lot of observational evidence. The Earth is gaining slight mass, very slight, due to dust from space impacting the Earth every year.

    But that is not Expansion of Matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    so say, the space between atoms is increasing, planck length by planck length. every year (some force related to entropy?)...
    but i know nothing and would like a definitive answer.
    Nuclear force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    scientific answer. good one
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  7. #6  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    what if ALL matter is expanding?
    if all matter was expanding, then we would be expanding with it and possibly not be able to tell the difference
    Is that because our rulers and measuring tapes would also be expanding?

    (not intended to be taken seriously)
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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  8. #7  
    Quagma SpeedFreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    what if ALL matter is expanding?
    if all matter was expanding, then we would be expanding with it and possibly not be able to tell the difference
    Is that because our rulers and measuring tapes would also be expanding?

    (not intended to be taken seriously)
    Yes.

    (even taken seriously!)
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    ULTRA-amateur here.

    but i was ruminating............

    what if ALL matter is expanding?

    we know the universe is, humans are getting taller as they evolve, etc......
    if planets are expanding/getting bigger/"stretching" that would surely explain earthquakes, etc.
    and hey, it's not like we've been comparing the diameter of the Earth every year lately.

    so say, the space between atoms is increasing, planck length by planck length. every year (some force related to entropy?)...

    either this has already been answered a few hundred years ago, or deemed too stupid to consider.

    but i know nothing and would like a definitive answer.
    This idea of matter getting larger was proposed by Paul Dirac in the early 30's when proposing his large numbers hypothesis. He proposed both the expansion of matter and the expansion of space to explain galactic redshifts, which was then a new discovery. Expanding matter falls into a class of theories called "Scaling Theory," where the scale of matter and other aspects of reality would accordingly change over time. Some of these models propose a cause for this changing of scale and other models do not. The flip side to this theory, is the dilution of matter model. Matter, according to these models, would accordingly be getting smaller as time progresses and would have been larger in the past. Hoyle/ Narlikar were the most well known proponents of this model. Larger matter in the past would have accordingly produced longer wavelengths of EM radiation, and accordingly would explain the observed galactic redshifts. These are cosmological models that are generally unrelated to Earth Science, but some that ascribe to these models, also assert evidence concerning continental configurations, geological evidence, the Earth moon relationship, the Earth Sun relationship, etc.

    -- regarding both matter getting larger or smaller as time passes.
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  10. #9  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by paradive View Post
    what if ALL matter is expanding?
    if all matter was expanding, then we would be expanding with it and possibly not be able to tell the difference
    Is that because our rulers and measuring tapes would also be expanding?



    (not intended to be taken seriously)
    Yes.

    (even taken seriously!)
    the only problem is, other physical constants like the speed of light or that of sound would have to change in step with the expansion of matter, otherwise there would be ways of telling whether something got bigger
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR View Post

    the only problem is, other physical constants like the speed of light or that of sound would have to change in step with the expansion of matter, otherwise there would be ways of telling whether something got bigger
    Yes, in some diminution of matter models all constants would remain constant in their own time frame, but some constants would appear to have been different when looking back in time. The speed of light, for instance, would appear to have been faster in the past while time would appear to have been slower (time dilation).

    I imagine an expanding matter model might have similar contentions concerning constants remaining constant but I would expect opposite predictions concerning the appearance of distant galaxies and the distant universe.
    Last edited by forrest noble; January 12th, 2013 at 03:48 PM.
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