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Thread: Are measures to prevent global warming justified?

  1. #1 Are measures to prevent global warming justified? 
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    Give that, it is not prove beyond doubt that it is happening and furtther more that if it is happening it is not proven beyond doubt that the changes will be for the worst or that the cost of the prevention measures will be less expensive than the 'damage done'. Futhermore it is not proven that the measures taken will be able to prevent the warming anyway, just produce a very slight but extremely costly delay.
    In sort a colossal waste of energy.


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  3. #2  
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    Since your mind is made up....why did you ask the question?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Since your mind is made up....why did you ask the question?
    I was not really asking a question it was basically a long winded way of saying they are totally unjustified.
    I am sure there is some big posh phrase for such a question but I forget what it is
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  5. #4  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    'rhetorical'

    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    rhetorical is posh ? i'm sure victoria beckham doesn't know the meaning of the word
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  7. #6 Re: Are measures to prevent global warming justified? 
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    Ok, now that we're past the Posh thingy....

    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    Given that (global warming), it is not proven beyond doubt that it is happening
    Just curious what evidence you'd like to share to show this. Land temperature, sea temperature, bore hole, animal migration patterns, plant buddings, and multiple reconstructions from global studies of tree rings growth, ice-cores, lake and marine sediments are nearly unanimous in showing significant global warming. It's pretty much certain global warming is happening.
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  8. #7  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    I am sure there is some big posh phrase for such a question but I forget what it is
    I've already offered once to help you out with your reading difficulties. I won't keep offering.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt
    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    I am sure there is some big posh phrase for such a question but I forget what it is
    I've already offered once to help you out with your reading difficulties. I won't keep offering.
    Just as well because I don't take advice from pompous condescending fakes.
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  10. #9  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    John Galt and esbo, can we leave the friendly greetings to one side and proceed with the discussion ?
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  11. #10 Re: Are measures to prevent global warming justified? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Ok, now that we're past the Posh thingy....

    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    Given that (global warming), it is not proven beyond doubt that it is happening
    Just curious what evidence you'd like to share to show this. Land temperature, sea temperature, bore hole, animal migration patterns, plant buddings, and multiple reconstructions from global studies of tree rings growth, ice-cores, lake and marine sediments are nearly unanimous in showing significant global warming. It's pretty much certain global warming is happening.
    Yes. You do that, Lynx_Fox, explain your rationalizations. But first, goodbuddy, tell me and esbo why you and your pals stopped callng global warming global warming?

    8) Take off your shoes and grab a beer, esbo, this is going to be lots of fun. :-D
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    John Galt and esbo, can we leave the friendly greetings to one side and proceed with the discussion ?
    Summary of my view on global warming
    The evidence for global warming is persuasive, but like all scientific observations and their resultant hypotheses it could be flawed. The likely consequences if it valid vary from dire to catastropic. In contrast the economic and social cost of taking mitigating actions are surprisingly low. Prudent application of survival principles would have us take those actions even if we doubt the data.

    Individuals and groups who actively deny the evidence and argue against any action are a definitive threat to civiliastion, humanity in general and my descendants in particular. Such opposition is likely due to either ignorance and poor education, or a cynical self righteousness. Both, when persistent, should be roundly condemned.

    Relevance to this thread
    esbo is a typical example of these dangerous attitudes. Therefore my response, offering to help him with his reading difficulties, is very much central to the discussion since it dramatises my belief that he has failed to properly consider the evidence and the context and is consequently ignorant.

    The Future
    The forum appears to be willing to tolerate repetitious threads, generated by the same people, trotting out the same tired arguments. I'm fed up with that. Milum has been on my Ignore list for some time. esbo has joined him. I shall be taking no further part in this discussion in any of their threads for the forseeable future.
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  13. #12  
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    Measures to prevent global warming.

    It depends what measures. For example, the demand for biofuels in Europe has spawned a giant industry in Malaysia and Indonesia for palm oil. The sad thing is that this comes at the expense of rainforest. In those countries, vast areas of tropical rainforest are torn up to grow oil palms, and the cost is massive emissions of CO2 - far more than can be compensated for by using biofuel instead of fossil fuel. As a result, Indoesia is now the world's third biggest emitter of fossil fuels.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...ergy.indonesia

    So the answer is : select the measures carefully, and on scientific rather than political grounds. Done properly, those measures are justified.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Measures to prevent global warming.

    It depends what measures. For example, the demand for biofuels in Europe has spawned a giant industry in Malaysia and Indonesia for palm oil. The sad thing is that this comes at the expense of rainforest. In those countries, vast areas of tropical rainforest are torn up to grow oil palms, and the cost is massive emissions of CO2 - far more than can be compensated for by using biofuel instead of fossil fuel. As a result, Indoesia is now the world's third biggest emitter of fossil fuels.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...ergy.indonesia

    So the answer is : select the measures carefully, and on scientific rather than political grounds. Done properly, those measures are justified.
    Quite so, skeptic, E.O.Wilson would roll over in his grave if he was dead, but he ain't.

    I tell you skeptic, some people are working the systems day and night to bilk wethepeople with phoney schemes that prey on our fears.

    What I fear most is human greed and do-gooders.
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    Doubting Dolts:

    You take humongous forests from the Carboniferous. There was no large-scale herbivores grazing the hell out of plant matter like there is today. You get an enormous Carbon sink in the new forests spreading like HELL over the planet once you have a deep enough layer for them to bond to - and modern trees can hold on in inches over rock, trust me. We have proof of global temperatures dropping as forests spread - the Carbon was sucked out of the atmosphere into so much plant matter. It was the opposite of what's going on today.

    As the truly ancient plants and trees die, falling on top of one another, they crush themselves down into deep deep pockets, which became most of today's coal 'reserves'. Reserved for what? Future man to dig up, burn and OH! Redeposit the Carbon right the hell BACK into the atmosphere.

    And you think that doesn't really change anything???
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  16. #15  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    Burning coal = exothermic
    photosynthesis = endothermic

    Why does everyone always overlook that?

    Some time in the Sumer when I'm bored, I'm going to trawl the internet to find the figures I need, and lok at exactly how much effect these endo/exo thermic reactions have. In a simplified calculation before, I found that the burning of fosil fuels alone more than accounts for the warming in the atmosphere over the past 100 years. But this did not account for the absorbtion by rock & water.

    Thing is, without an accurate model to run, this is quite a headache to work out.

    .......I do not state my belief one way or the other, yet. I am not in posession of all the data I need to come to a satisfactory conclusion.

    I'll keep you posted, when I get around to doing it.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  17. #16  
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    I don't think it's justified. The money would be much better spent to help people in Africa, for example.
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    It's not going to be much help for the people in Africa when the ecosystems we run on collapse.
    We will be so busy trying to survive in our areas that the people in Africa will be left entirely alone.

    We are in the middle of an extinction event, and it's been caused entirely by our capitalist actions. If Katrina was caused by our own global warming, then we have already started to kill our own selves, haven't we?
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  19. #18  
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    Global warming is not a current threat. There are much bigger problems that take priority.

    Let us deal with those now, and in the future we can deal with global warming when we have a better understanding.

    Trying to solve global warming is like people 100 years ago trying to solve the problems we have today.

    --

    And capitalism is the best economic system there is, but that's a different subject.
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  20. #19  
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    I think I'd disagree about capitalism being the best system.
    I live in Canada, and I think socialism might be a better way to go.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Since your mind is made up....why did you ask the question?
    I was not really asking a question it was basically a long winded way of saying they are totally unjustified.
    I am sure there is some big posh phrase for such a question but I forget what it is
    You shouldn't throw out things like rhetorical questions. People have to think about those.

    Frankly, since we are in a cooling trend, we should add more CO2 to warm things up a bit, assuming CO2 at 300 ppm can really do the job. But that is a heck of an assumption when you consider that 7000 ppm of CO2 failed to warm things up in Earth's past.

    Welcome to the Science Forum! Hope you stick around. :-D
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  22. #21  
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    The only measures justified in my mind are to make Asia stop putting soot in the air. Are scrubbers really that expensive?

    Black and White: Soot on Ice

    Aerosols May Drive a Significant Portion of Arctic Warming

    NASA Study Finds Soot May Be Changing the Arctic Environment

    Soot Affects Polar Ice

    NASA Studies Sooty Carbon in Global Warming

    If it stayed in China, I wouldn't mind. They need an EPA over there:





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  23. #22  
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    The photos may be misleading. Remember that China's downwind of a vast arid landscape, and receives dust storms. From a jet one can see the haze of Gobi streaming over to the Pacific. Those aerosols are indispensible, for they enable ocean vapour to form clouds, clouds that often blanket the entire northeast quarter of that ocean. So you've posted some photos illustrating the Asian side of this assembly line.

    Or is it just raining? Why is the road wet?


    I'm not saying soot's okay, though to be fair we might congratulate the Chinese for their suppression of natural (brush and timber fire) soot. I can see that sooty ice is crappy ice, and even see that China & Japan besides traditional polluters of the north hemisphere are passing soot to the arctic.

    Do you reckon humans produce more soot annually than forest fires did before we managed them?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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