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Thread: Ice articles from both ends of the planet

  1. #1 Ice articles from both ends of the planet 
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    Arctic Literally On Thin Ice, According To New Satellite Data.

    The first is from the Ice data center that shows the arctic sea ice particularly thin as compared to earlier decade averages.

    ScienceDaily (Apr. 6, 2009) — The latest data from NASA and the University of Colorado at Boulder's National Snow and Ice Data Center show the continuation of a decade-long trend of shrinking sea ice extent in the Arctic, including new evidence for thinning ice as well.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0406132602.htm

    This is consistent with another study from from NOAA and University of Washington this week which predicts mostly ice free arctic summers within the next 30 years.
    http://www.thetechherald.com/article...ithin-30-years

    --
    The next is about the Wilkins ice sheet which is slowly disintegrating, making it tenth to collapse in the past two years.


    Keeping an eye on Wilkins Ice Shelf

    As the Wilkins Ice Shelf is at risk of breaking away from the Antarctic Peninsula, ESA’s Envisat satellite is observing the area on a daily basis. The satellite acquisitions of the ice shelf are updated automatically on this website to monitor the developments immediately as they occur.

    http://www.esa.int/esaEO/SEMWZS5DHNF_index_0.html





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    Forum Ph.D. Darius's Avatar
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    Okay? This may come as a shock to you, but we've completely lost the polar ice caps many times in geological history. It tends to happen, well, about now. When the continents are separated, the Earth is at its warmest, which inevitably causes the polar caps to melt. I believe that we're long overdue for a full on warming period, because we're already over half way through the split-continent phase (or maybe smack dab in the middle). In fact, over the past few thousand years, the ice has continued to melt and sea levels have continued to rise. We've found a number of ancient cities now buried under ocean water because of it.

    The reason why I mention this, is because I'm certain the "duelists" will migrate to this thread and start arguing a vast number of nonsensical points yet again.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    Okay? This may come as a shock to you, but we've completely lost the polar ice caps many times in geological history. It tends to happen, well, about now. When the continents are separated, the Earth is at its warmest, which inevitably causes the polar caps to melt. I believe that we're long overdue for a full on warming period, because we're already over half way through the split-continent phase (or maybe smack dab in the middle). In fact, over the past few thousand years, the ice has continued to melt and sea levels have continued to rise. We've found a number of ancient cities now buried under ocean water because of it.

    The reason why I mention this, is because I'm certain the "duelists" will migrate to this thread and start arguing a vast number of nonsensical points yet again.
    No scientist doubts the continental distribution effects climate over the course of tens of millions of years. I say "distribution" because even when the continents were relatively together by over the equator, for example, during the Late Triassic the earth experienced ice free poles.

    But please expand on your idea. Why does a forcing with several hundred million year cycle assert itself over the course of a few decades. Another way to answer the same question: how does the Atlantic Ocean being a few inches wider cause the ice to melt on both ends of the planet?
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    i was under the impression that the current ice age was initiated by the coming together of the 2 americas, thereby interrupting the equatorial flow from the pacific to the atlantic

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    The reason why I mention this, is because I'm certain the "duelists" will migrate to this thread and start arguing a vast number of nonsensical points yet again.
    duelists ? anyone in particular you're referring to ?
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    Lynx_Fox: You have been deceived. The problem is the sun hasn't been as active as it used to be (Or so I believe), thus resulting in lower temperatures in spite of what should be warmer ones. Alternatively, and I agree with both of these opinions, the sun has been more active. The latter view can be easily proven by comparing satellite temperature charts with solar irradiance charts. Whahey, they match!

    MarnixR: Lynx_Fox, william, and another whose name starts with W. It's a nightmare when any of them start disagreeing. It's like disagreeing with Mitch: It never goes anywhere and you feel violated afterward.
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    Darius I was hoping you'd discuss your continental drift idea, rather than change the topic.
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    Oh, that is what you meant. What's there to discuss about it? It's a fact of geology. I just can't remember the official term.
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    it's just that usually ice ages are dominated not just by the position of the continents, but also by the way they force the ocean currents to redistribute heat around the planet + this type of configuration doesn't change overnight - there may be interglacials, but the same continental configuration that initiated the recent set of ice ages is still with us

    i.e. the Panama isthmus is still in place and not showing any signs of disappearing any time soon, the antarctic still has its circumpolar current that is not about to be interrupted by any land mass sticking into the temperate regions, and the arctic ocean is still a shallow sea surrounded by continents

    all these combined to make the ice age that started around 2 million years ago, and i doubt whether a slight widening of the atlantic ocean makes much difference climate-wise
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    The time scales are so different it almost certainly doesn't have a thing with what's going on now.

    You claim that cities have drowned due to sea level rise and infer this too is due to continental drift. Considering there have only been coastal cities for a few thousand years, again the scales don't match. Reconstructions of sea level have varied little since the creation of cities not more than a meter or two at the most. Most of the historical examples of drowned cities, such as ancient Alexandria were built on subsiding alluvial planes river delta and the like, the ground sank beneath them much more than the sea rose to flood them.

    --
    Anyhow I'll address the solar versus green house gas in another post. The simple answer is most of the projected warming from green house gas increases are at high latitudes, dry points at lower latitudes (both due to saturation of IR and overlap by water and Co2), and in the lower troposphere versus cooling in the upper atmosphere--this is what we're seeing. Solar changes don't produce this pattern. Also no one is saying the sun doesn't play a role, but in this case with solar output down a bit, unless there's some long phase delay we shouldn't be rapidly loosing polar ice.

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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    You actually went off half cocked with an absurd notion that continental drift would explain...
    can we please all cut down on the use of abrasive and insulting language ?

    Lynx_Fox, you could have addressed Darius's claims without the use of words such as "half cocked" or "absurd" - it's quite possible to disagree without resorting to name-calling
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    You actually went off half cocked with an absurd notion that continental drift would explain...
    can we please all cut down on the use of abrasive and insulting language ?

    Lynx_Fox, you could have addressed Darius's claims without the use of words such as "half cocked" or "absurd" - it's quite possible to disagree without resorting to name-calling
    Noted. Post edited.
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