Notices
Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Information on Engineered sinks for ground source heat pumps

  1. #1 Information on Engineered sinks for ground source heat pumps 
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4
    I need information on the different type on sinks (enginerered and natural) for ground source heat pump (Geoexchange)

    This is not digging deep into the earths core and extracting heat through pipes, and hot/cold water. But rather for example in the summer storing heat just underground, and in the winter taking that heat back for use.


    if anybody could point me in the right direction for knowledge that would be great.


    William


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2 Re: Information on Engineered sinks for ground source heat p 
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    172
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxcompaq
    I need information on the different type on sinks (enginerered and natural) for ground source heat pump (Geoexchange)

    This is not digging deep into the earths core and extracting heat through pipes, and hot/cold water. But rather for example in the summer storing heat just underground, and in the winter taking that heat back for use.


    if anybody could point me in the right direction for knowledge that would be great.


    William
    The air in caves and mines stays close to the mean annual temperature the year around, William. But it takes a times one hundred cube cave to heat and cool a house.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3 Re: Information on Engineered sinks for ground source heat p 
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxcompaq
    I need information on the different type on sinks (enginerered and natural) for ground source heat pump (Geoexchange)

    This is not digging deep into the earths core and extracting heat through pipes, and hot/cold water. But rather for example in the summer storing heat just underground, and in the winter taking that heat back for use.


    if anybody could point me in the right direction for knowledge that would be great.


    William
    William not sure how involved you want to get into this. I had a similar question in response to a recent article about the fall onset of methane in the high Arctic. I wondered if temperature time lag several meters below the surface could account for the fall melting of permafrost and methane release. Questions like: how far down down the surface temperature change reflected? What is the time lag delay with depth? How much does it change due to the materials and "wetness" of the materials.

    Here's one of the model articles I found interesting. http://soilphysics.okstate.edu/softw...e/document.pdf

    If you don't want to delve into the math, the figures give a pretty good feel.

    I never went far enough to answer the methane question but it seemed at least plausible that the observed fall release of methane was due to summer heat penetrating far enough to melt and release para frost a few meters below the surface. I might eventually get around to writing a simple model in python.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4 Re: Information on Engineered sinks for ground source heat p 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by milum
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxcompaq
    I need information on the different type on sinks (enginerered and natural) for ground source heat pump (Geoexchange)

    This is not digging deep into the earths core and extracting heat through pipes, and hot/cold water. But rather for example in the summer storing heat just underground, and in the winter taking that heat back for use.


    if anybody could point me in the right direction for knowledge that would be great.


    William
    The air in caves and mines stays close to the mean annual temperature the year around, William. But it takes a times one hundred cube cave to heat and cool a house.
    I have replaced the really old semi hermetic AC rack systems, that are cooled by well water. They pump the well water through the condenser, to cool it. And then they pump it back into the ground.

    You do not need a chilling tower. You do not have to drain the chilling tower. Neat idea.

    It works really well. Usually better suited for commercial sites. But some really large homes in Upper Brookville from what I understand are putting in Geothermal.

    I was just talking to a fellow the other day. The president of GEM AC in Garden City. And he was recommending these certain heat pump units, that have shown a successful runtime in the field without incident. They are a little more commercial from what I understand.

    But even the little units. Like the Samsung's and the Mitsubishi's put out a good deal of heat. And then a little electric heater kicks in, so you can still use a good portion of the quantity of air outside. The electric heater just brings it to a usable temperature.










    This is what we walked into. It was in pretty bad shape. A lot of stuff jumped out in that room.
    We got it running really well. And replaced most of the safeties.

    Then they never even had use come back to change the filter driers. The building switched hands and they had no money.
    Because of the burnouts in the system, the wire insulation burns off and gets into the Freon system.

    We told them that we had to come back and change the filter driers right away. They never had us back. I don't think they paid either. I think it ran for like six months. Then it sucked the filter drier. That usually wipes out the compressor.





    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4
    Thanks for all the Reply's, and information.

    I feel the main point is being slighlty missed though.

    The Question which i face directly is

    "Ground source heat pump systems use the ground as a sink/source. is tehre any advantage in using an "engineered" sink?

    William
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    My impression is the entire system takes some engineering to size it properly based on the heat requirement of the house, soil type, vertical or horizontal tubing in the ground etc.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Isotope Bunbury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,590
    I looked briefly into an underground heat sink when we had A/C installed in our house last year. It looked as if we would have needed about a half mile of buried pipe and our backyard is nowhere near big enough. If you have a few acres of land it might work. We ended up with a conventional outdoor coil.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "engineered" sink. What kind of sink would not be engineered?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxcompaq
    Thanks for all the Reply's, and information.

    I feel the main point is being slighlty missed though.

    The Question which i face directly is

    "Ground source heat pump systems use the ground as a sink/source. is tehre any advantage in using an "engineered" sink?

    William
    Any sink, or geothermal source, is engineered, if only because you need to know the temperature of the water, you are putting into the system, either the well, or nowadays the sealed loop of tubing your putting into the ground water. You have to size the tubing, you need to run, to flow water sometimes a great distance from the pump and back.

    You have to put in a flow valve that opens and closes to adjust the flow of cooling water. It is controlled by gas pressure, in the condenser.

    If the water flow is lessoned for any reason, if the safeties are working, your system will cut out on high head pressure. If that safety fails, depending on the size of the system and whether they are hermetic or semi hermetic compressors, either a pressure blow off will release the Freon from the water cooled condensor. Or the hermitic compressor will internally bypass and or release the Freon from the Condenser.

    So there will be a bit of engineering involved. These systems are frowned upon because not many understand them. And not many properly service them. Very few are properly maintained. Very few are properly setup.

    Corrosion is the main problem. Pumps leak.

    A company here on the Island Brian Egan Mechanical is doing the deep well, Geothermal on the North Shore. I know him he is a great guy. Very honest guy. Always looking for better solutions. He does nice work, that he is proud of.

    In the city some systems still use the city water, just a trickle through the condenser, to cool it. A solenoid turns on the water when the unit comes on, and a valve controlled by the head pressure regulates the flow.

    Some heat pumps in the city, in either incremental units or packaged terminal units, use the building water, that runs cold in the summer from the chilling tower, or runs warm in the winter from the building furnace. To make heat and Air Conditioning possible.




    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4
    Thanks again.

    Looking at it i know that there are sinks such as a pond loop system



    And slinky type of system, (ect)



    These are all for storing the heat within the ground.

    My question is what are other type of sinks to actually store this heat (or opposite)

    I've brushed upon engineered sinks such as glass misex with water, or something in that region due to the high spcific heat capacity of it, but was wondering where i could find more info of these sort of tecnology's.

    Thanks
    William
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxcompaq
    These are all for storing the heat within the ground.
    Actually they're not for storage but to Exchange heat with the ground, which is big difference.

    There are also vertical exchange systems, something like tubes inserted into multiple bore holes. More expensive but useful is there's limited land or the owner doesn't want to tear up the land with ditches.

    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4
    Ah yes sorry for that, but that is excactly what i am getting at.

    The ground is used as a natural sink, but i want to find out about "engineered" sinks.

    Thanks, Will
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxcompaq
    Ah yes sorry for that, but that is excactly what i am getting at.

    The ground is used as a natural sink, but i want to find out about "engineered" sinks.

    Thanks, Will
    There are substances if you can create a hot enough condenser, that will absorb or change heat rays into something else. An example is phosphor, diamonds, and some other carbon substances.

    You may have to engineer a whole new refrigerant that can take the heat. Freon will probably break down at those temperatures. Unless you create a very large, heat exchanger.

    I would think electric heaters would be the easiest most compact way to create a usable man-made heat source.

    You could also use powerful lights and the heat they output. To keep an evaporator acting as a heat collector warm. This is where it gets confusing. In AC mode the heat collector in heat pump mode, is the condenser, and it gets rid of heat.

    http://www.hydroempire.com/store/pro...roducts_id/111

    I have been up working in the ceilings in department stores. And it is hot up there. Even when the heating systems have been off for a few days, these lights will keep the store warm.
    Placed near a heat collector, they should do a swell job supplying the warmth you need for heat pump to work. You just need a little bit of room.

    Considering an average 100 watt bulb puts out about 1800 lumens and these will put out about 36,000 lumens. You can see the benefit. And possibilities.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •