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Thread: Oscar Pistorius trial

  1. #101  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Making an utterance does not necessarily follow being shot. In fact, the person might not say anything for several seconds, if at all, due to shock.

    I have shot plenty of guns, and manually shooting two or three rounds in 300 ms is extremely fast, even with a semi-automatic. It amounts to 400 to 600 rounds per minute, which is the cyclic rate for a fully automatic weapon. It would sound like a short burst from a fully automatic weapon.
    Are you saying you do not think he shot that fast? I would rather believe you since you have experience in shooting. this trial is so scary because there are too many unanswered questions. I do not see how they are going to find him guilty on murder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Juries are basically easily swayed by opinion and not true facts. I think I'd trust a judge over a jury.
    This is true, and even in this thread we've seen how people are willing to draw conclusions unsupported by fact, such as, "I would have screamed, so she must have screamed" or "he was obviously shooting to kill as he shot blindly through the door" or "his courtroom theatrics are obnoxious, so he must be guilty of murder." However, judges are not necessarily better, such as this guy, who was taking kickbacks to send kids to detention facilities.
    Pa. Judge Sentenced To 28 Years In Massive Juvenile Justice Bribery Scandal : The Two-Way : NPR

    For me, it was an eye-opening experience to follow the George Zimmerman trial, and watch decisions by prosecutors made based on political pressure, and fraudulent indictment handed down, with no repercussions from the judicial system.
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  3. #103  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    If I were Oscar I would be pretty damned glad that the majority of you are not on the jury. (Although this post follows Harold's, it is not in response to Harold's post. Harold seems to be taking a similar position to me here. i.e. "You don't frigging know what you are talking about.")
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    What if he planned to kill her when she went into the bathroom? He waited until she went in then started shooting her dead. This is a plausible way to think as he just wanted her dead and this was the easiest way to do so. I'm just saying what if.
    CT, I am going with your take for the moment. I think this guys was going to kill her, period. I think there is a plot, and I think it has to do with the company that make the blades for his running. Call me what you will.
    You have GOT to be kidding me....?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    What if he planned to kill her when she went into the bathroom? He waited until she went in then started shooting her dead. This is a plausible way to think as he just wanted her dead and this was the easiest way to do so. I'm just saying what if.
    CT, I am going with your take for the moment. I think this guys was going to kill her, period. I think there is a plot, and I think it has to do with the company that make the blades for his running. Call me what you will.
    You have GOT to be kidding me....?
    I really do not know what this guy did, and how it will turn out. Based on the story I hear, there are too many discrepancies for my brain to comprehend, that is why I have left the story and looked for another motive for anyone killing anyone the way we are hearing it. I cannot find one to match so I made one up to suite the way it appears to me, all about gain, that is all. It is not based on anything else. I cannot give this guy a verdict, because I have no clue what was going on in his mind. I do know though, that different things go on in peoples mind especially when they are handicapped.
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  6. #106  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    What if he planned to kill her when she went into the bathroom? He waited until she went in then started shooting her dead. This is a plausible way to think as he just wanted her dead and this was the easiest way to do so. I'm just saying what if.
    CT, I am going with your take for the moment. I think this guys was going to kill her, period. I think there is a plot, and I think it has to do with the company that make the blades for his running. Call me what you will.
    You have GOT to be kidding me....?
    I really do not know what this guy did, and how it will turn out. Based on the story I hear, there are too many discrepancies for my brain to comprehend, that is why I have left the story and looked for another motive for anyone killing anyone the way we are hearing it. I cannot find one to match so I made one up to suite the way it appears to me, all about gain, that is all. It is not based on anything else. I cannot give this guy a verdict, because I have no clue what was going on in his mind. I do know though, that different things go on in peoples mind especially when they are handicapped.
    Is that spoken from a personal point of view? It was emphasized at the start of the defense side of the trial, how the troubles of being handicapped made him vulnerable, and hence more defensive.
    This then makes the scenario he has given plausible, but harder for us to understand not being in his shoes.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; April 18th, 2014 at 11:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    If I were Oscar I would be pretty damned glad that the majority of you are not on the jury. (Although this post follows Harold's, it is not in response to Harold's post. Harold seems to be taking a similar position to me here. i.e. "You don't frigging know what you are talking about.")
    Although I'm fairly knowledgeable of American law, I don't know anything about Roman-Dutch law. It seems OP choose a panel of judges to hear his case instead of a jury because it is so emotional/controversial. But judges can also rule severely against OP because his claims are so unrealistic. In the end, defendants and prosecutors alike will lie (even with "expert" witnesses), and the adjudicators must choose who is more and less believable.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I really do not know what this guy did, and how it will turn out. Based on the story I hear, there are too many discrepancies for my brain to comprehend, that is why I have left the story and looked for another motive for anyone killing anyone the way we are hearing it. I cannot find one to match so I made one up to suite the way it appears to me, all about gain, that is all.
    Which facts in the case do you think are better explained by a murder conspiracy involving the manufacturer of prosthetic devices, than they are explained by the arguments of the prosecution or the defense attorneys?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    It seems OP choose a panel of judges to hear his case instead of a jury because it is so emotional/controversial.
    Maybe you missed the part where Kalster said they don't have a jury system in South Africa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    What if he planned to kill her when she went into the bathroom? He waited until she went in then started shooting her dead. This is a plausible way to think as he just wanted her dead and this was the easiest way to do so. I'm just saying what if.
    CT, I am going with your take for the moment. I think this guys was going to kill her, period. I think there is a plot, and I think it has to do with the company that make the blades for his running. Call me what you will.
    You have GOT to be kidding me....?
    I really do not know what this guy did, and how it will turn out. Based on the story I hear, there are too many discrepancies for my brain to comprehend, that is why I have left the story and looked for another motive for anyone killing anyone the way we are hearing it. I cannot find one to match so I made one up to suite the way it appears to me, all about gain, that is all. It is not based on anything else. I cannot give this guy a verdict, because I have no clue what was going on in his mind. I do know though, that different things go on in peoples mind especially when they are handicapped.
    Is that spoken from a personal point of view? It was emphasized at the start of the defense side of the trial, how the troubles of being handicapped made him vulnerable, and hence more defensive.
    This then makes the scenario he has given plausible, but harder for us to understand not being in his shoes.
    I cannot be in this mans shoes, they do not fit me, that makes everything I say irrelevant. What I said is based on my take on the whole affair. I am answering the questions that's entering my biased mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I really do not know what this guy did, and how it will turn out. Based on the story I hear, there are too many discrepancies for my brain to comprehend, that is why I have left the story and looked for another motive for anyone killing anyone the way we are hearing it. I cannot find one to match so I made one up to suite the way it appears to me, all about gain, that is all.
    Which facts in the case do you think are better explained by a murder conspiracy involving the manufacturer of prosthetic devices, than they are explained by the arguments of the prosecution or the defense attorneys?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    It seems OP choose a panel of judges to hear his case instead of a jury because it is so emotional/controversial.

    Maybe you missed the part where Kalster said they don't have a jury system in South Africa.
    I have taken this some way out of context in terms of reason for the crime as I am seeing it. There are no arguments for a conspiracy, there are however arguments that something is not right. Motive can come from any quarters, I am shooting kind of off target. Although at times somethings can sound very far fetched, they can also be considered since especially now a days where money is the name of the game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pongo View Post
    not wishing to upset the legal system of another country I must respect the system now existing in SA and hope it provides the justice this case merits.

    whether it is best to be judged by a group of your peers who have no specialist legal knowledge or by three people who do is open to discussion.
    Personally, I never really understood why the jury system was a good idea. Like you say, they aren't legal experts and just average people. Average people are stupid, to put it bluntly.

    I'm afraid I actually agree with this statement. I don't mean to ''slam'' America neither, but America does harbor a lot of stupid people. You're life is literally in the hands of often uneducated white people. (No I am not black, but often you are fucked if you are).
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    I'm afraid I actually agree with this statement. I don't mean to ''slam'' America neither, but America does harbor a lot of stupid people. You're life is literally in the hands of often uneducated white people. (No I am not black, but often you are fucked if you are).
    So most judges are white in America BUT juries can be made up of blacks and whites if the attorneys want them. So which then is better to have judging you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I'm afraid I actually agree with this statement. I don't mean to ''slam'' America neither, but America does harbor a lot of stupid people. You're life is literally in the hands of often uneducated white people. (No I am not black, but often you are fucked if you are).
    So most judges are white in America BUT juries can be made up of blacks and whites if the attorneys want them. So which then is better to have judging you?
    All I can say to this is, good question.
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  14. #114  
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    BUMP!!! And the verdict is ...

    I say he's at least guilty of manslaughter and if the judge has any brains (and she has) most likely murder.

    ... but we will need to wait another month.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    So not guilty of murder by legal intent, sounds like guilty of culpable homicide but we need the rest of the judgement in the morning.
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Could also get manslaughter if they have that charge there.
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    Apparently it is very unusual for the judge to have adjourned at that point (resuming tomorrow) in the proceedings. I read that it might be down to Pistorius' emotional state.

    It seems like an awful lot of extra expense if that is it.
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  18. #118  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    It seems like an awful lot of extra expense if that is it.
    Come on! One more day after what we've already had. Insignificant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Come on! One more day after what we've already had. Insignificant.
    Well I suppose the court system is not paying for the journalists' expenses , which is what I was mainly thinking about.

    I also get that justice shouldn't be penny pinching.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Come on! One more day after what we've already had. Insignificant.
    Well I suppose the court system is not paying for the journalists' expenses , which is what I was mainly thinking about.

    I also get that justice shouldn't be penny pinching.

    Really? you're thinking about journalists expences, surely they must be lapping this up. Think of all the news news columns they must be filling, drawing out the suspence. This whole trial has probably more than paid for their yearly wages, how many newspapers and tv ad slots will have been sold off the back off this trial and it's recieving global coverage surely a major coup for any of the journalists involved.

    Really what should be about justice for the people and families involved is being used as money making, headline grabbing tool for the entire media circus, and surely the last thing they should or would be worried about is paying for their reporters hotel and food bills, geez!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post



    Really? you're thinking about journalists expences, surely they must be lapping this up. Think of all the news news columns they must be filling, drawing out the suspence. This whole trial has probably more than paid for their yearly wages, how many newspapers and tv ad slots will have been sold off the back off this trial and it's recieving global coverage surely a major coup for any of the journalists involved.

    Really what should be about justice for the people and families involved is being used as money making, headline grabbing tool for the entire media circus, and surely the last thing they should or would be worried about is paying for their reporters hotel and food bills, geez!

    I was conceding the point to John .I wasn't trying to be argumentative over what is , as you might agree a very minor point in the overall case.
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    Not guilty of murder, guilty of culpable homicide. I agree with the judge's verdict. I don't think there was enough evidence to prove intent. I think he will get a pretty stiff sentence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Not guilty of murder, guilty of culpable homicide. I agree with the judge's verdict. I don't think there was enough evidence to prove intent. I think he will get a pretty stiff sentence.
    Home detention?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Not guilty of murder, guilty of culpable homicide. I agree with the judge's verdict. I don't think there was enough evidence to prove intent. I think he will get a pretty stiff sentence.
    I think the sentence will be a pretty good indicator of how much of his defence the Judge actually believes was true and not made up to avoid being convicted of murder. I also think this case could have implications for other murder trials worldwide, depending ho the sentencing goes, with regard to defences against mens rea, even for any non strict liability crimes for that matter.

    Whatever story a defendant chooses to use form now on without suffient evidence to refute will cause some major headaches for prosecutors, and this will certainly no doubt encourage defences to come up with some more elaborate stories, perhaps even more so when juries are involved and sticking ridgidly to the concept of reasonable doubt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    I think the sentence will be a pretty good indicator of how much of his defence the Judge actually believes was true and not made up to avoid being convicted of murder.
    I don't think it will and it shouldn't. He's been acquitted of murder and the sentence should reflect his degree of guilt for the negligence of which he was convicted.
    I also think this case could have implications for other murder trials worldwide, depending ho the sentencing goes, with regard to defences against mens rea, even for any non strict liability crimes for that matter.

    Whatever story a defendant chooses to use form now on without suffient evidence to refute will cause some major headaches for prosecutors, and this will certainly no doubt encourage defences to come up with some more elaborate stories, perhaps even more so when juries are involved and sticking ridgidly to the concept of reasonable doubt.
    I don't think it's any different than it's always been. When the standard is proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, that means a lot of guilty people will go free. Nothing new here.
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    The Week further reported that the double amputee could face up to 15 years in jail on the culpable homicide charge. His sentence is due to serve in October.

    June, the mother of the dead 29-year-old bikini model, was not convinced of the verdict.

    "Justice was not served. I just don't feel this is the right sentence," the grieving mother told the news network NBC. "I won't believe his story and that's the difference."

    "I don't care what happens to Oscar," she added. "It's not going to change anything because my daughter is never coming back. He's still living and breathing and she's gone ... forever."


    https://www.google.com/search?q=Osca...w&ved=0CB0QqAI
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