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Thread: murders

  1. #1 murders 
    New Member Aditi's Avatar
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    Is murder without malicious intent equally punishable?


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  3. #2  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Can you explain to me how one could murder someone without malicious intent? Are you perhaps meaning, not murder, but manslaughter - where the killing is accidental, or justifiable homicide - where the killing has the intent of protecting oneself or others?


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    Yes i mean accidental as well as the killing of a person in self defence/
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    No, it is not equally punishable, obviously. A killing in self defense is not even a crime. An accident may or may not be a crime, depending on who was at fault, and how negligent they were. There are degrees of murder, the worst being a pre-meditated murder. But even for that, the sentence may vary depending on whether or not there were aggravating or mitigating factors. 18 U.S. Code § 3592 - Mitigating and aggravating factors to be considered in determining whether a sentence of death is justified | LII / Legal Information Institute
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    Ok.. Got it
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    I kinda worry for this post….Are you planing something…?
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  8. #7  
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    No not at all. i am just a forensic student... bt wait wait... I am smelling something... Do u wanna engage in anything like dat?
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    *thoughtful* no :P
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    "whether a sentence of death is justified"
    I wonder if the last industrialized country to abolish slavery will also be the last one to abolish murdering its own citizens?

    US? Iran? China? Butcher-istan? Which one will be last? The bets are on...
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "whether a sentence of death is justified"
    I wonder if the last industrialized country to abolish slavery will also be the last one to abolish murdering its own citizens?

    US? Iran? China? Butcher-istan? Which one will be last? The bets are on...
    Ending the death penalty in the US?

    ....BAHAHAHAHA!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "whether a sentence of death is justified"
    I wonder if the last industrialized country to abolish slavery will also be the last one to abolish murdering its own citizens?US? Iran? China? Butcher-istan? Which one will be last? The bets are on...
    Ending the death penalty in the US?....BAHAHAHAHA!
    well, aren't you going to answer the question? Dont leave us hanging.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "whether a sentence of death is justified"
    I wonder if the last industrialized country to abolish slavery will also be the last one to abolish murdering its own citizens?US? Iran? China? Butcher-istan? Which one will be last? The bets are on...
    Ending the death penalty in the US?....BAHAHAHAHA!
    well, aren't you going to answer the question? Dont leave us hanging.
    You sure you want to hear it? It's shocking.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "whether a sentence of death is justified"
    I wonder if the last industrialized country to abolish slavery will also be the last one to abolish murdering its own citizens?

    US? Iran? China? Butcher-istan? Which one will be last? The bets are on...
    Ask yourself this question, if your loved ones were tortured , decapitated and thrown into a garbage heap what would you want to happen to those people responsible for them being murdered?
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    Ask yourself this question, if your loved ones were tortured , decapitated and thrown into a garbage heap what would you want to happen to those people responsible for them being murdered?
    I'd want vengeance against them.

    Which makes me the last person to say what should happen in a system of civilised justice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Ask yourself this question, if your loved ones were tortured , decapitated and thrown into a garbage heap what would you want to happen to those people responsible for them being murdered?
    I'd want vengeance against them.

    Which makes me the last person to say what should happen in a system of civilised justice.
    ditto
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  17. #16  
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    Theres an intersection where I live, where there use to be car accidents galore, year after year, many individuals were unusually incompetent/uncareful and responsible for accidents right there, they were not taking their own individualistic freedomloving libertarian responsability and were bad drivers there. Then the intersection was redesigned, and there has been NO accidents since (afaik). Regressive minded people may have thought that the solution was more punishment, or outraged at being collided with might have wanted a revenge penalty on the offending driver. although some drivers may have been more likely/distracted/prone to accidents than others, the environment was a significant factor. It appears to me in this case that the people responsible for the crap initial design bear some indirect responsabilty for the accidents while those who have identified that the design was crap and designed a better intersection deserve at least *some* credit for the fantastic drop in accidents. The people that made the decision to change the design, concluded that the individual responsibility did exist but was IRRELEVANT to the solution, since the Environment was the most Relevant factor in finding a SOLUTION.

    The US has 800% more murders per capita than Austria. Why? Could it be that culture and the human environment is different? Could it be that 42 murders out of 48 would not have occured if the people were living in another coutry with a different culture and social environment?

    maybe its different in the usa, but in my opinion few children dream of being murderers when they grow up. in my opinion a murderer requires a mix of mental illness/stress and sick/violent/degenerate culture/environment as a template upon which the insane behavior takes form.

    When you are born in a culture, you grow accustomed and tend to find it normal, regardless of how violent or detrimental it is. toy guns for children appear quite normal to people that live in such a culture, the same way people in other times may have brought their kids to witchburnings, "look Tommy, thats how a good pyre is built, you want the...." "hey theres nothing wrong with burning a human alive, all you need is a reason, and i have the reason, shes a witch, killing humans is perfectly normal and good ou only need a reason to do it"
    "hey theres nothing wrong with killing people, all ve need ist ein goot reason, thzey are chews, killing humans is perfektly goot und normal, all you need is a goot reason"
    "what are you implying? theres nothing wrong with toy guns, heck, Im teaching Billy Bob to shoot real guns, and hes quite good at Call of Duty""lets not split hairs over which particular 'black' guy did it, he fits the description, hes black!"
    "sure we killed him from the sky with a drone missile, and it was probably him we wanted to kill, but we had good reasons to kill, he clearly was perhaps supected of being a terrorist, thats what the guy we tortured told us, and killing and torturing is fine, as long as you have or make up a reason for it"

    so i would treat the murderers as insane people that could not cope with or were disturbed by the barbaric environment in which they lived, if i could go back in time i would not kill them as a pehemptive capital punishment for Jonhy the 7 year old kid but would give them immigration papers to move to palau or iceland (or I would move to French Polynesia )
    Last edited by icewendigo; March 26th, 2014 at 07:46 PM.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Ask yourself this question, if your loved ones were tortured , decapitated and thrown into a garbage heap what would you want to happen to those people responsible for them being murdered?
    I'd want vengeance against them.

    Which makes me the last person to say what should happen in a system of civilised justice.
    I'd want justice which would be putting them to death.
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    I'd want justice which would be putting them to death.
    Well, I see justice as being part of a civilised society.

    The first commitment to civilisation would be a reduction in violence and in the community's acceptance of violence.

    1. The mere possibility, let alone the known incidence, of judicial killing of the wrong person should put it off the table as an option. Even for those where there's no doubt. Because there is no clear, bright line between which cases are and which aren't, "beyond doubt", in terms of who is or isn't the "right" person and, the one that makes us all sick to our stomachs, where the person really isn't responsible for their actions. How anyone can justify a death sentence on a person whom no one would trust to bring back the right stuff if you gave them a shopping list that read ice cream and chocolate is beyond me.

    2. The civilised society has to set the general standard for its citizens. The standard has to be that killing people is wrong. Anything less is not civilised.

    3. Practicalities. Societies that do have the death penalty tend to have higher murder rates than societies that don't. See point 2.
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    But these are emotional responses and the reason why juries are supposed to be made-up from among the DIS-passionate, and, technically, from among those not even acquainted with popular accounts (newspaper, etc.) of some act. Sure, I'd be moved to kill anyone responsible for a murder of a loved one. That is why I'd not be allowed on the jury. I'm okay with that reasoning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Ask yourself this question, if your loved ones were tortured , decapitated and thrown into a garbage heap what would you want to happen to those people responsible for them being murdered?
    I'd want vengeance against them.

    Which makes me the last person to say what should happen in a system of civilised justice.
    ditto
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    State-sponsored killing is only slightly less heinous than the regular kind. Even worse, in some ways, as the question of society's 'sane-ness' is never in question. And Executions are not performed by 'state-of-mind' issues. Or are they ? An illusion need not be personal, only. Mass illusion is well-documented; Germany, circa 1932.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    State-sponsored killing
    shows that there is nothing wrong with killing humans, as long as you have a reason, all you need is to find yourself a reason (he deserves it, she wont get away with it, he will pay) and voilà you're all set you can go ahead and kill that person. It shows that the ultimate solution to a problem is punishment and the ultimate punishment is killing, so killing is the ultimate solution. And it teaches children that killing is a solution to problems.

    Speaking of state-sponsored killing, Note that imo war is mass murder, and its being sold and marketed as just another policy, just an option on the table, as business as usual, people in many countries have been desensitized to mass murder and war its flabbergasting how nonchalant people are about mass murder "yeah,
    should I have one cream or two milk, Im not sure, oh yea about that other issue why not bomb them" (kill a few hundred thousand people, men women and children). -"OMG, you put two milk in your latte? "

    (the other day I was thirsty after killing my 10th victim in a row in my serial killing spree you know, so I was thirsty and had a orange GatorAid
    -OMG you drink gatoraid, its old fashioned, you should try Xtreme energy drink instead)

    People are so used to find mass murder normal that theres a "military technology" section in this forum as if its normal, people have been brainwashed by a militarized culture to find bomber's "cool", ("the X75 bomber is 10% faster and uses the latest laser guided bombs! cool!") to me thats like having a "capital punishment tools and tricks" section (the Electric Chair 2000 kills in half the time and uses less electricity so is more environmentally friendly, cool!) , "the art of serial killing" section or a "latest raping techniques" section or a "the scientific study of the economics of slavery and the shackles technology". I sometimes try to pretend its normal in an attempt to practice communicating with people in a way that is not alien, but its hard, I sometimes pull it off.
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    Exactly. Killing is wrong, except.....no exceptions allowed. Any rationalization for killing another human being is just that. Not for God, not for country, not for revenge.
    These are all bad 'reasons'. Self-defense, possibly; but the restrictions must be steadfastly preserved absent a clear and present danger. Which, wouldn't you know it, Tom Clancy used as a title. Military intelligence; now there's the mother of all oxy-morons. Unless it's 'friendly-fire'. Both wrapped in nationalist/militaristic zeal. War has always been a favorite subject of mine. It's where folly lives. It's where I like to throw stones, too.
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "whether a sentence of death is justified"
    I wonder if the last industrialized country to abolish slavery will also be the last one to abolish murdering its own citizens?

    US? Iran? China? Butcher-istan? Which one will be last? The bets are on...
    You realize, don't you, that the abolition of slavery in the USA was only achieved by way of a very bloody and vicious civil war?
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    The other thing I should point out is that in the USA, the states are largely self governing. The decision to have or not to have a death penalty is not left up to the Federal Government. So it's unlikely there will ever be a federal law forbidding execution. It would require an amendment to the Constitution.

    At present 18 of the 50 states have individually chosen to do away with the death penalty.


    States With and Without the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center
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  26. #25  
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    "You realize, don't you, that the abolition of slavery in the USA was only achieved by way of a very bloody and vicious civil war?"

    yes, because no other country on planet earth was able to abolish slavery without butchering hundreds of thousands of humans in a bloody war, its never been done, civil war is the only way it could have been done, good point


    "state self governing"
    thats a (genuine ) good point, its a bit unfair for states that have abolished death penalty to be brushed along those that havent, i do not wish to criticize the USA or the poeple that happen to be born there but do want to criticize the practice itself, the initial comment was not an effective way do that though it was the origin of the death penalty reference that lead me to it
    Last edited by icewendigo; March 27th, 2014 at 05:38 PM.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    State-sponsored killing
    No , state sponsored JUSTICE.
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  28. #27  
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    thats not true justice real justice is sharia law, what you need is chopping off limbs, mutilations, beheadings for adultery and good old fashioned stonings. and if you behead the wrong person thats just though love you cant make an omlet without braking a few eggs. heck if a retarded person admits raping a person when he hasnt done it because thats what the police wants to hear, lets rape him, anything else would not be justice. killing and murdering is just perfectly fine, all you need to do is call it JUSTICE (or whatever else satisfies your need to justify murder)

    I can picture a kkk mob hanging a "black" man while shouting JUSTICE! yeehaaw! were gonna get us some good old fashioned JUSTICE!
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    This may sound harsh, but the death penalty comes into play long before anyone is convicted and the result is many more confessions of murder in order to avoid a death penalty trial. However if you are innocent you will be very reluctant to confess to a murder that you didn't commit and therefore end up in a death penalty trial. This creates a situation where a higher percentage of innocent defendants receive a death sentence.

    Sounds like a very good reason to not have a death penalty. Also, many people don't realize that it cost a great deal more to take anyone through the whole process of conviction, many death row appeals and finally execution, than it does to just confine someone for life. Another good reason not to have a death penalty.

    So why do we like our death penalty so much?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    This may sound harsh, but the death penalty comes into play long before anyone is convicted and the result is many more confessions of murder in order to avoid a death penalty trial. However if you are innocent you will be very reluctant to confess to a murder that you didn't commit and therefore end up in a death penalty trial. This creates a situation where a higher percentage of innocent defendants receive a death sentence.
    Can you provide a link as to where you found this statistic, thanks.

    They have at least 10 years of appeals before justice is served so there's time to prove their innocence and a way to be set free if they are.
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    Yes, which needn't have happened had the founders done the right thing in 1776. Why didn't they ? Greed. Free labor was more important to them than their own fucking Constitution. This attitude lives on.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "whether a sentence of death is justified"
    I wonder if the last industrialized country to abolish slavery will also be the last one to abolish murdering its own citizens?

    US? Iran? China? Butcher-istan? Which one will be last? The bets are on...
    You realize, don't you, that the abolition of slavery in the USA was only achieved by way of a very bloody and vicious civil war?
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    I said it right the first time.
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    State-sponsored killing
    No , state sponsored JUSTICE.
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    The Innocence Project has had a hand in the release of over 300 convicted of capital crimes. People confess to murders they did not commit every day. In my state, in the 1990s six individuals were convicted of the rape and murder of an elderly woman. Three had confessed. Two of those convicted were females. At the time of the crime, I thought how unusual that females would've been involved. After spending 10 years behind bars, DNA evidence revealed the real killer; a guy who had, by then, died in an Oklahoma prison. The crime lab head was found to have planted the necessary blood evidence in one of the suspect's cars. He's now in prison and the released six have filed suit. It's known as the Beatrice Six. They were, in a word, framed. Happens far more than some think.
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    They have at least 10 years of appeals before justice is served so there's time to prove their innocence and a way to be set free if they are.
    When there's no evidence, new or otherwise, what can be argued at an appeal? Grounds for appeal are very restrictive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    They have at least 10 years of appeals before justice is served so there's time to prove their innocence and a way to be set free if they are.
    When there's no evidence, new or otherwise, what can be argued at an appeal? Grounds for appeal are very restrictive.
    Much depends on which state you get convicted in. Both Texas and Florida go from conviction to execution within a few months, usually less than a year. Only the people that have access to great legal defense teams have much of a chance to avoid the death penalty in these states. Now if you happen to be convicted in California, you are almost guaranteed 10 or more years before you will be executed after conviction. Then there are states that are close to voting to end the death penalty, so they put all executions on hold until the election is held. It can be very confusing and is never equal for everybody and that's another reason it should be done away with.

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    Death Penalty and Innocence | Amnesty International USA

    Does this link help?
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    Mostly the death penalty doesn't worry me for the same reason as why semi-trucks driving down the road don't worry me, or flying on an airplane to get somewhere doesn't worry me. Yes, I know I would feel differently if I were in a car on a collision course with a semi-truck after the driver has had a heart attack and it's just careening into my lane. Or I'd feel differently if I were on a plane that loses power and is headed into a nosedive toward the Earth.

    However, the probability such that I end up in that situation is very small. Also the probability that most people end up in that situation is very small. Can't lay awake at night worrying about that stuff.

    The main benefit I see for the death penalty is it gives the state leverage when dealing with a murderer who has already been caught, and already knows they won't be acquitted. You can't offer to let them out before their life is over, but you can threaten to kill them. Sometimes that's enough to get them to cooperate and help either to find other murderers they've worked with (if we're talking about organized crime) or at least give the families of their undiscovered victims some closure.

    Even more important, it gives lifers a reason not to kill other inmates. It's easy to forget that some criminals in prison are there on lame charges, like dealing marijuana. They don't deserve to die for that, but throwing them in a cell block with an out-of-control lifer can easily end up that way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Mostly the death penalty doesn't worry me for the same reason as why semi-trucks driving down the road don't worry me, or flying on an airplane to get somewhere doesn't worry me. Yes, I know I would feel differently if I were in a car on a collision course with a semi-truck after the driver has had a heart attack and it's just careening into my lane. Or I'd feel differently if I were on a plane that loses power and is headed into a nosedive toward the Earth.

    However, the probability such that I end up in that situation is very small. Also the probability that most people end up in that situation is very small. Can't lay awake at night worrying about that stuff.
    Yes that's true, but I can and do empathize with victims of the legal system.

    The main benefit I see for the death penalty is it gives the state leverage when dealing with a murderer who has already been caught, and already knows they won't be acquitted. You can't offer to let them out before their life is over, but you can threaten to kill them. Sometimes that's enough to get them to cooperate and help either to find other murderers they've worked with (if we're talking about organized crime) or at least give the families of their undiscovered victims some closure.
    Again this is also true, and you not only have to have a death penalty, but you have to use it, in order for it to be the intimidating tool needed by law enforcement.

    Even more important, it gives lifers a reason not to kill other inmates. It's easy to forget that some criminals in prison are there on lame charges, like dealing marijuana. They don't deserve to die for that, but throwing them in a cell block with an out-of-control lifer can easily end up that way.
    Most prisons segregate the violent criminals from the non violent criminals. So this might not be the issue you are making it out to be.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    Mostly the death penalty doesn't worry me for the same reason as why semi-trucks driving down the road don't worry me, or flying on an airplane to get somewhere doesn't worry me. Yes, I know I would feel differently if I were in a car on a collision course with a semi-truck after the driver has had a heart attack and it's just careening into my lane. Or I'd feel differently if I were on a plane that loses power and is headed into a nosedive toward the Earth.

    However, the probability such that I end up in that situation is very small. Also the probability that most people end up in that situation is very small. Can't lay awake at night worrying about that stuff.
    Discrimination against women, gays, or people with various skin tones labelled "black" doesnt worry me per say, there is very little chance it will directly affect me personally, the odds are small. Children working in unregulated child-labour death trap mines doesnt worry me either, its not like "I" am a kid or will work in a mine any time soon, why should I oppose any of that if my own individualistic libertarian self is not affected? Wait a minute, maybe "I" could profit from child-labor, hundreds of kids slaving away could be profitable for "me", after all its "them" that are suffering and that doesnt worry me, they are not "me" so thats all fine and dandy.


    The main benefit I see for the death penalty is it gives the state leverage when dealing with a murderer who has already been caught, and already knows they won't be acquitted. You can't offer to let them out before their life is over, but you can threaten to kill them. Sometimes that's enough to get them to cooperate and help either to find other murderers they've worked with (if we're talking about organized crime) or at least give the families of their undiscovered victims some closure.
    Death threats are effective? You mean people will do anything to avoid being executed including doing and saying anything you want them to? Wow, that is Great! The Mafia and Organized Crime were right all along. Now I understand. We should expand the death penalty to intimidate people, its such a great concept we ought to use it across the board.

    "Even more important, it gives lifers a reason not to kill other inmates. It's easy to forget that some criminals in prison are there on lame charges, like dealing marijuana. They don't deserve to die for that, but throwing them in a cell block with an out-of-control lifer can easily end up that way."
    The sudden altruism for "criminals" is touching, I guess that inmates in countries without a death penalty must be killing each other like an all you can kill murder buffet extravaganza. That is why the prison population is so low in other countries, its because they throw just as many people in jail but they all kill each other.

    Warning the following prison video of extreme violence is not for the faint of hearts (joke), its a prison in a country without the death penalty, so as you can imagine its dangerous and violent


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4beUC3-ckw


    Last edited by icewendigo; March 28th, 2014 at 09:08 AM.
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    cosmictraveler

    Death Penalty and Innocence | Amnesty International USA

    Does this link help?


    No, all it said was...


    Since 1973, over 130 people have been released from death rows throughout the country due to evidence of their wrongful convictions. In 2003 alone, 10 wrongfully convicted defendants were released from death row.

    That seems to low for what you had said over a 55 year period of time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    cosmictraveler

    Death Penalty and Innocence | Amnesty International USA

    Does this link help?


    No, all it said was...


    Since 1973, over 130 people have been released from death rows throughout the country due to evidence of their wrongful convictions. In 2003 alone, 10 wrongfully convicted defendants were released from death row.

    That seems to low for what you had said over a 55 year period of time.
    Part of the problem is Amnesty International and other organizations only deal with convicts that are still living, and even then only the ones they have a good chance of proving innocent. So it's very hard getting accurate data on wrongfully convicted people that have already been executed. Also, without DNA evidence it is unlikely there will be a reversal of a sentence. No matter what we do, there will be innocent people that get executed for a crime they didn't commit. It is a price that is paid by a country that uses the death penalty. I do understand the reasons for the death penalty, but I'd like to see a better system put into place and tried. There are many different systems in place around the world. It would not be very difficult to pick one that works and give it a try here.
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    But your comment that "This creates a situation where a higher percentage of innocent defendants receive a death sentence." isn't true then because your link shows much fewer that what you said.

    Put criminals into a stasis until they die or are found innocent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    But your comment that "This creates a situation where a higher percentage of innocent defendants receive a death sentence." isn't true then because your link shows much fewer that what you said.

    Put criminals into a stasis until they die or are found innocent.
    I didn't really put a number on my statement, but it would seem logically that innocents are not going to take a plea deal, therefore they will go to trial in almost every case. Speaking for myself, I would not confess to a crime I did not commit in order to save my life.
    Having said that, I can then say the only people taking the deal and confessing are guilty people. Less guilty people going to trial means a higher percentage of innocents will be going to trial. What those percentages are or might be is beyond me. But that will make the odds of more innocents being wrongfully convicted and ending up on death row.
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    I would not confess to a crime I did not commit in order to save my life.


    Some would, so if an innocent person is accused, you either get a chance to put an innocent person on death row, Or, you get an innocent person to admit to a crime he didnt commit to save his life, either way its an injustice (and barbaric practice worthy of criminal organizations and despotic regimes that should remain in the 20th century)
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    I do understand the reasons for the death penalty, but I'd like to see a better system put into place and tried.
    Well, it's been tried in other English speaking countries and the whole of the European Union and plenty of other places as well as several states of the US itself.

    The big issue is whether the death penalty has any deterrent or other beneficial legal or social effect that so many people claim for it. It's obvious that it doesn't when you look at the different murder rates in other states / countries and whether those countries / states do or don't have the death penalty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Mostly the death penalty doesn't worry me for the same reason as why semi-trucks driving down the road don't worry me, or flying on an airplane to get somewhere doesn't worry me. Yes, I know I would feel differently if I were in a car on a collision course with a semi-truck after the driver has had a heart attack and it's just careening into my lane. Or I'd feel differently if I were on a plane that loses power and is headed into a nosedive toward the Earth.

    However, the probability such that I end up in that situation is very small. Also the probability that most people end up in that situation is very small. Can't lay awake at night worrying about that stuff.
    Discrimination against women, gays, or people with various skin tones labelled "black" doesnt worry me per say, there is very little chance it will directly affect me personally, the odds are small. Children working in unregulated child-labour death trap mines doesnt worry me either, its not like "I" am a kid or will work in a mine any time soon, why should I oppose any of that if my own individualistic libertarian self is not affected? Wait a minute, maybe "I" could profit from child-labor, hundreds of kids slaving away could be profitable for "me", after all its "them" that are suffering and that doesnt worry me, they are not "me" so thats all fine and dandy.
    That's an inequality problem. The people mentioned have a higher probability than I do of suffering a bad fate, so it would be silly for me to claim to empathize with them.

    However I have right about the same odds as anyone else of being wrongfully accused of murder, especially given some of the things I say online.


    The main benefit I see for the death penalty is it gives the state leverage when dealing with a murderer who has already been caught, and already knows they won't be acquitted. You can't offer to let them out before their life is over, but you can threaten to kill them. Sometimes that's enough to get them to cooperate and help either to find other murderers they've worked with (if we're talking about organized crime) or at least give the families of their undiscovered victims some closure.
    Death threats are effective? You mean people will do anything to avoid being executed including doing and saying anything you want them to? Wow, that is Great! The Mafia and Organized Crime were right all along. Now I understand. We should expand the death penalty to intimidate people, its such a great concept we ought to use it across the board.
    If what they say is where the body is buried, and the investigators didn't know where the bodies were buried, then I'd say that's pretty useful. The parents of missing people usually feel better after they find out their childrens' fates, even if that fate was death.

    I judge morality by how people experience life, not whether they live or die. Everyone dies. Not everyone undergoes seriously traumatic experiences while alive. I prefer to focus on the problems of the living.

    "Even more important, it gives lifers a reason not to kill other inmates. It's easy to forget that some criminals in prison are there on lame charges, like dealing marijuana. They don't deserve to die for that, but throwing them in a cell block with an out-of-control lifer can easily end up that way."
    The sudden altruism for "criminals" is touching, I guess that inmates in countries without a death penalty must be killing each other like an all you can kill murder buffet extravaganza. That is why the prison population is so low in other countries, its because they throw just as many people in jail but they all kill each other.

    Warning the following prison video of extreme violence is not for the faint of hearts (joke), its a prison in a country without the death penalty, so as you can imagine its dangerous and violent


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4beUC3-ckw


    Every country looks bad if you compare it with Norway. Well, except perhaps Sweden. And maybe Iceland.
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    To me, high murder rates and the death penalty both stem from the idea in a society of killing those whom one refuses to tolerate. The death penalty does not prevent murders for two reasons.
    One, everyone commits crimes thinking they won't get caught.
    Two, the death penalty actually reinforces murder — if it's okay for the government to kill those it cannot tolerate, then so can everyone else.

    As for innocents pleading guilty.

    The authorities throw your butt in the jail without any apparent reason and can mess with you (examples: tell you anything, threaten you, beat you, mentally torture you {examples, keeping the lights on 24 hours/day or not allowing you any clothes to wear because — conveniently — you're on "suicide watch", placing you under 30 days observation to see if you are insane, waking you up in the middle of the night to make sure you haven't killed yourself, etc}, etc).

    The authorities and the media invent and publicize all sorts of "facts" (examples: you supposedly confessed to the crime, witnesses have identified you as the criminal, you supposedly committed other crimes on other occasions, you're the only one who could have done it, calling it a "murder" before it's been proven {as in, So-and-so was arrested for the murder of What's-his-name}, etc).

    Even your family, friends and neighbors appear on TV, in the newspaper or in the Internet news talking about you in the past tense (examples: He was a good kid. He was a nice neighbor. He was a pleasant coworker.). To them, you're already dead.

    Then there's the defense lawyer not able to guarantee 100% that he'll get you off, because it's impossible to guarantee the outcome of a case, and so he uses qualified statements such as: he should be able to suppress this evidence, juries usually don't convict someone on such testimony, the judge will probably not allow the prosecutor to pursue that line of questioning, etc.

    These are very strong psychological stressors.

    Pleading ultimately boils down to Game Theory, believe it or not, because only numbers can be compared to one another, so each side's position gets quantified into numbers. The prosecutor champions a "maximin" — he wants to maximize the least number of years to serve, as in: I want that scumbag to serve at least 10 years. The defense lawyer champion a "minimax" — he wants to minimize the largest number of years to serve, as in: My client refuses to serve more than 15 years. A plea occurs if the minimax is greater than or equal to the maximin.
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    Adelady is correct in stating that the central question is whether the death penalty is a deterrent to capital crime. I don't think the statistics support
    the case for using it. These are well known and stated further above. Far more than we are willing to admit, revenge is a factor.
    The very act of murder is madness, though the insanity plea is used in only about 2% of defenses for capital crimes. Plea bargaining can and does convince some innocents to take the shorter time offered rather than face execution. False confessions are surprisingly easy to extract, given the desperation felt by an unfairly accused person and the grueling interrogation methods; sleep deprivation, psychological manipulation, threats.
    Once justification for murdering an accused person is allowed, the individual applies his own fabrication of 'justness'. It has become self-reinforcing. That State claims death justified. The potential killer feels likewise justified in his interpretation of justice.
    None of that applies in random acts of murder or a cold-blooded grab for material gain. But crimes of passion are different, entirely. And these are where things get murkier. Killing your lover's lover used to be condoned, to an extent. Was Mark Chapman sane ? Doesn't seem so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Adelady is correct in stating that the central question is whether the death penalty is a deterrent to capital crime.
    Use of simple statistics can be misleading. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did a state institute the death penalty because of the high murder rate, or did the murder rate rise due to the death penalty (ie, the state acted as a bad example), or did they both occur pretty much simultaneously due to society's mentality (as I suggested)?

    Even if statistics show the murder rate increased after instituting the death penalty (ie, the simple view of the death penalty failing to reduce the murder rate), what would the murder rate have done without instituting the death penalty (ie, would it have been much worse)?

    Circa the 1990s, there was a huge surge in young black-on-black (gang-related?) drive-by shootings in Boston. I don't know if any experts investigated to learn why it began. The apparent reason why it stopped was because religious and "community" leaders appealed for it to stop. That is, grassroots non-governmental intervention. At least that's how the media reported it. I don't remember any gun buyback programs, any threats to re-institute the death penalty, etc.
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    Which part of the text in that link do you find of particular interest and what is your own view about it?
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    The original words were thou shall not murder, which is a totally different meaning.

    Think about the expenses that are needed to keep a person in jail. The average is close to 40,000 US a year and that comes out of taxpayers pockets. That money could be used for education, medical care or police departments. Then you need to build more jails to house those that commit criminal acts which cost millions.
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    Think about the expenses that are needed to keep a person in jail. The average is close to 40,000 US a year and that comes out of taxpayers pockets. That money could be used for education, medical care or police departments. Then you need to build more jails to house those that commit criminal acts which cost millions.
    That's why its better to have progressive preventive policies instead of Neanderthal regressive repression.
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    Some days, I think that we here in the USA live in a society where murder is the political norm.

    Let us consider the massacre (murders) of civilians and children at the mount carmel religious retreat of the branch davidians where the FBI assembled what may have been the largest military force ever gathered against a civilian suspect(note that it was just a suspect not a criminal).
    In all, there were a gathering of 899 agents of government sponsored thuggery who became judge jury and executioners of 75 religious civilians including 23 children(closer to 30 children if you consider the teenage mothers as children, which I do).

    The government agents had:
    10 bradley tanks
    2 abrams tanks
    4 combat engineering vehicles
    There were
    668 fbi agents,
    6 us customs officers
    15 us army personnel
    13 members of the texas national guard
    31 texas rangers
    131 officers from the texas department of public safety(public safety? hahahahaha--really pathetic name that)
    17 deputies from the mclennan county sheriffs office
    and 18 waco police.

    On the other side, we had mostly women and children----------almost all dead now
    wow such heroism

    When the government agents grew tired of trying to buy children from the branch davidians for milk.
    They sent in the tanks and burned the poor wretches to death.
    All justified by their superiors, and celebrated by the press.

    Unpunished in this life.
    If there really is a god
    maybe they suffer in the next for their crimes against humanity?
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    You are mixing stuff completely
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    Quote Originally Posted by YellowKazooie8 View Post
    You are mixing stuff completely
    How so?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by YellowKazooie8 View Post
    You are mixing stuff completely
    How so?
    I was talking to OP
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I do understand the reasons for the death penalty, but I'd like to see a better system put into place and tried.


    Well, it's been tried in other English speaking countries and the whole of the European Union and plenty of other places as well as several states of the US itself.

    The big issue is whether the death penalty has any deterrent or other beneficial legal or social effect that so many people claim for it. It's obvious that it doesn't when you look at the different murder rates in other states / countries and whether those countries / states do or don't have the death penalty.
    If you're going to base the question on deterrence, then it's important to be fair about how the question is asked. Just asking whether it reduces the overall murder rate is unfair, because, in most of the states which allow the death penalty they still rarely impose it on anyone.

    It's mostly reserved for cases of mass murder, or things like killing a police officer in the line of duty. (And even in those cases it can often be avoided by taking a plea.) Your normal run of the mill murder for money/anger/etc will usually result in life in prison, but not death.

    If you want to ask the question fairly, you have to ask whether the specific types of murder which are likely to result in execution occur less frequently?
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Some days, I think that we here in the USA live in a society where murder is the political norm.

    Let us consider the massacre (murders) of civilians and children at the mount carmel religious retreat of the branch davidians where the FBI assembled what may have been the largest military force ever gathered against a civilian suspect(note that it was just a suspect not a criminal).
    In all, there were a gathering of 899 agents of government sponsored thuggery who became judge jury and executioners of 75 religious civilians including 23 children(closer to 30 children if you consider the teenage mothers as children, which I do).

    The government agents had:
    10 bradley tanks
    2 abrams tanks
    4 combat engineering vehicles
    There were
    668 fbi agents,
    6 us customs officers
    15 us army personnel
    13 members of the texas national guard
    31 texas rangers
    131 officers from the texas department of public safety(public safety? hahahahaha--really pathetic name that)
    17 deputies from the mclennan county sheriffs office
    and 18 waco police.

    On the other side, we had mostly women and children----------almost all dead now
    wow such heroism

    When the government agents grew tired of trying to buy children from the branch davidians for milk.
    They sent in the tanks and burned the poor wretches to death.
    All justified by their superiors, and celebrated by the press.

    Unpunished in this life.
    If there really is a god
    maybe they suffer in the next for their crimes against humanity?





    The child abuse and sexual abuse claims have been widely circulated in the press coverage though it is often difficult to separate the purported claims from the evidence.[12] Koresh's doctrine of the House of David[13] did lead to spiritual marriages with both married and single women in the group and with at least one underage girl.

    The underage girl was Michelle Jones, the younger sister of Koresh's legal wife Rachel and the daughter of lifelong Branch Davidians Perry and Mary Belle Jones. Koresh took Michelle as a spiritual wife when she was thirteen, evidently with the consent of the Joneses. This means Koresh was in violation of state law and could have been prosecuted for statutory rape in Texas. A six-month investigation of child abuse allegations by the Texas Child Protection Services in 1992 failed to turn up any evidence, most likely because the Branch Davidians concealed the spiritual marriage of Koresh to Michelle Jones, assigning a surrogate husband (David Thibodeau) to the girl for the sake of appearances.[14] A second allegation involved an underage girl, Kiri Jewell, who testified in the Congressional hearings on Waco in 1995. She claimed that, beginning from when she was ten years old, Koresh forced her to perform sexual acts.

    Regarding the allegations of child abuse, the evidence is less compelling. In one widely reported incident, ex-members claimed that Koresh became irritated with the cries of his son Cyrus and spanked the child severely for several minutes on three consecutive visits to the child's bedroom. In a second report, Koresh was said to have beaten the eight-month-old daughter of another member for approximately forty minutes until the girl's bottom bled. In a third incident, a man involved in a custody battle visited Mount Carmel Center and claimed to have seen the beating of a young boy with a stick.

    The 51-day siege of Mount Carmel Center ended on April 19 when U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno approved recommendations of veteran FBI officials to proceed with a final assault in which the Branch Davidians were to be removed from their building by force. In the course of the assault, the church building caught on fire in circumstances that are still disputed. Barricaded inside the building, 76 Branch Davidians, including David Koresh, did not survive the fire; seventeen of these victims were children under the age of 17. According to the FBI, Steve Schneider, Koresh's right-hand man who "probably realized he was dealing with a fraud", shot and killed Koresh and then committed suicide with the same gun.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...63934634,d.cWc

    "What is remarkable is the overwhelming evidence exonerating the government from the charges made against it, and the lack of any real evidence to support charges of bad acts. ... In the face of such a calamity, we have a need to affix blame. Things like this just can't happen; they must be the government's fault. We are somehow able to ignore the contrary evidence -- never mind the fact that the FBI waited for 51 days without firing a shot, never mind the evidence that the Branch Davidians started the fire, never mind that the FBI agents risked their own lives in efforts to rescue the Davidians -- and we buy into the notion that the government would deliberately kill 80 people in a burning building."



    The gas used by Federal agents in their attack on the Branch Davidian compound yesterday is not flammable and in the form it was reportedly used could not have ignited the fire that destroyed the compound.

    Dr. Jay Young, a chemical consultant in Silver Spring, Md., said that a mixture of the chemical, known as CS, and air could be ignited only if the ratio of the gas and the air was within a very narrow range, and that flames could not spread beyond the small area where such a ratio might exist.

    "I cannot conceive of any foreseeable fire hazard posed by use of the gas," said Dr. Young, who is a safety consultant on chemicals.

    CS, the Defense Department designation for the chemical o-chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile, can be dispensed either in projectiles like hand grenades or shells, or from gas generators of the type used yesterday. Spraying After Ramming.


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    Quote Originally Posted by YellowKazooie8 View Post
    You are mixing stuff completely
    Wow, deep. Glad you violated forum policy to come back and post THAT.
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  60. #59  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Some days, I think that we here in the USA live in a society where murder is the political norm.

    Let us consider the massacre (murders) of civilians and children at the mount carmel religious retreat of the branch davidians where the FBI assembled what may have been the largest military force ever gathered against a civilian suspect(note that it was just a suspect not a criminal).
    In all, there were a gathering of 899 agents of government sponsored thuggery who became judge jury and executioners of 75 religious civilians including 23 children(closer to 30 children if you consider the teenage mothers as children, which I do).

    The government agents had:
    10 bradley tanks
    2 abrams tanks
    4 combat engineering vehicles
    There were
    668 fbi agents,
    6 us customs officers
    15 us army personnel
    13 members of the texas national guard
    31 texas rangers
    131 officers from the texas department of public safety(public safety? hahahahaha--really pathetic name that)
    17 deputies from the mclennan county sheriffs office
    and 18 waco police.

    On the other side, we had mostly women and children----------almost all dead now
    wow such heroism

    When the government agents grew tired of trying to buy children from the branch davidians for milk.
    They sent in the tanks and burned the poor wretches to death.
    All justified by their superiors, and celebrated by the press.

    Unpunished in this life.
    If there really is a god
    maybe they suffer in the next for their crimes against humanity?
    The child abuse and sexual abuse claims have been widely circulated in the press coverage though it is often difficult to separate the purported claims from the evidence.[12] Koresh's doctrine of the House of David[13] did lead to spiritual marriages with both married and single women in the group and with at least one underage girl.

    The underage girl was Michelle Jones, the younger sister of Koresh's legal wife Rachel and the daughter of lifelong Branch Davidians Perry and Mary Belle Jones. Koresh took Michelle as a spiritual wife when she was thirteen, evidently with the consent of the Joneses. This means Koresh was in violation of state law and could have been prosecuted for statutory rape in Texas. A six-month investigation of child abuse allegations by the Texas Child Protection Services in 1992 failed to turn up any evidence, most likely because the Branch Davidians concealed the spiritual marriage of Koresh to Michelle Jones, assigning a surrogate husband (David Thibodeau) to the girl for the sake of appearances.[14] A second allegation involved an underage girl, Kiri Jewell, who testified in the Congressional hearings on Waco in 1995. She claimed that, beginning from when she was ten years old, Koresh forced her to perform sexual acts.

    Regarding the allegations of child abuse, the evidence is less compelling. In one widely reported incident, ex-members claimed that Koresh became irritated with the cries of his son Cyrus and spanked the child severely for several minutes on three consecutive visits to the child's bedroom. In a second report, Koresh was said to have beaten the eight-month-old daughter of another member for approximately forty minutes until the girl's bottom bled. In a third incident, a man involved in a custody battle visited Mount Carmel Center and claimed to have seen the beating of a young boy with a stick.

    The 51-day siege of Mount Carmel Center ended on April 19 when U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno approved recommendations of veteran FBI officials to proceed with a final assault in which the Branch Davidians were to be removed from their building by force. In the course of the assault, the church building caught on fire in circumstances that are still disputed. Barricaded inside the building, 76 Branch Davidians, including David Koresh, did not survive the fire; seventeen of these victims were children under the age of 17. According to the FBI, Steve Schneider, Koresh's right-hand man who "probably realized he was dealing with a fraud", shot and killed Koresh and then committed suicide with the same gun.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...63934634,d.cWc

    "What is remarkable is the overwhelming evidence exonerating the government from the charges made against it, and the lack of any real evidence to support charges of bad acts. ... In the face of such a calamity, we have a need to affix blame. Things like this just can't happen; they must be the government's fault. We are somehow able to ignore the contrary evidence -- never mind the fact that the FBI waited for 51 days without firing a shot, never mind the evidence that the Branch Davidians started the fire, never mind that the FBI agents risked their own lives in efforts to rescue the Davidians -- and we buy into the notion that the government would deliberately kill 80 people in a burning building."

    The gas used by Federal agents in their attack on the Branch Davidian compound yesterday is not flammable and in the form it was reportedly used could not have ignited the fire that destroyed the compound.



    CS, the Defense Department designation for the chemical o-chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile, can be dispensed either in projectiles like hand grenades or shells, or from gas generators of the type used yesterday. Spraying After Ramming.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4W9jCgHcDNwKXA
    Cosmic
    You have just done a rather nice job of parroting the government/fbi cover-up side of the story.
    May I suggest being a tad more critical when you read and parrot things like:
    In one widely reported incident, ex-members claimed...
    Stop a moment and wonder just who these un-named sources were.(did "they" have a grudge against Koresh?---Were "they" trustworthy sources?) Do you know who and/or what Marc Breault was and his reasons for lying about Karesh?

    Do you honestly believe that any of these allegations justify the use of deadly force against so many innocents?
    Do you honestly believe that the frontal assault which led to the bloodbath was the only way to proceed with the investigation of alleged--repeat--alleged violations?

    The whole damned thing smacks to me of thuggery and tyranny on the part of the atf, fbi and associated personnel.
    ....................
    edit-who to believe?
    as/re your quoted:
    76 Branch Davidians, including David Koresh, did not survive the fire; seventeen of these victims were children under the age of 17.
    Here is a list of the dead:
    Count them up yourself
    In all, 76 Branch Davidians died[9] and nine survived the fire on April 19 (five others had been killed in the initial ATF raid and buried on the grounds, one had been killed by ATF after the raid, and 35 had left during the FBI standoff).[71] Fatalities included:

    Chanel Andrade, 1, American
    Jennifer Andrade, 19, American
    Katherine Andrade, 24, American
    George Bennett, 35, British
    Susan Benta, 31, British
    Mary Jean Borst, 49, American
    Pablo Cohen, 38, Israeli
    Abedowalo Davies, 30, British
    Shari Doyle, 18, American
    Beverly Elliot, 30, British
    Doris Fagan, 51, British
    Yvette Fagan, 32, British
    Lisa Marie Farris, 24, American
    Raymond Friesen, 76, Canadian
    Sandra Hardial, 27, British
    Diana Henry, 28, British
    Paulina Henry, 24, British
    Phillip Henry, 22, British
    Stephen Henry, 26, British
    Vanessa Henry, 19, British
    Zilla Henry, 55, British
    Novellette Hipsman, 36, Canadian
    Floyd Houtman, 61, American
    Sherri Jewell, 43, American
    David M. Jones, 38, American
    Bobbie Lane Koresh, 2, American
    Cyrus Koresh, 8, American
    David Koresh, 33, American
    Rachel Koresh, 24, American
    Star Koresh, 6, American
    Jeffery Little, 32, American
    Nicole Gent Little, 24, Australian, pregnant
    Dayland Lord Gent, 3, Australian[78]
    Paiges Gent,[79] 1, American
    Livingston Malcolm, 26, British
    Anita Martin, 18, American
    Diane Martin, 41, British
    Lisa Martin, 13, American
    Sheila Martin, Jr., 15, American
    Wayne Martin, Jr., 20, American
    Wayne Martin, Sr., 42, American
    Abigail Martinez, 11, American
    Audrey Martinez, 13, American
    Crystal Martinez, 3, American
    Isaiah Martinez, 4, American
    Joseph Martinez, 8, American
    Julliete Martinez, 30, American
    John-Mark McBean, 27, British
    Bernadette Monbelly, 31, British
    Melissa Morrison, 6, British
    Rosemary Morrison, 29, British
    Sonia Murray, 29, American
    Theresa Nobrega, 48, British
    James Riddle, 32, American
    Rebecca Saipaia, 24, Filipino[80]
    Judy Schneider, 41, American
    Steve Schneider, 43, American
    Mayanah Schneider, 2, American
    Clifford Sellors, 33, British
    Scott Kojiro Sonobe, 35, American
    Floracita Sonobe, 34, Filipino
    Aisha Gyrfas Summers, 17, Australian, pregnant
    Gregory Summers, 28, American
    Startle Summers, 1, American
    Hollywood Sylvia, 1, American
    Lorraine Sylvia, 40, American
    Rachel Sylvia, 12, American
    Chica Jones, 2, American
    Michelle Jones Thibodeau, 18, American
    Serenity Jones, 4, American
    Little One Jones, 2, American
    Margarida Vaega, 47, New Zealander
    Neal Vaega, 38, New Zealander
    Mark H. Wendell, 40, American
    Now, how many were "children under the age of 17?
    Did you only cound 15?
    Do you still trust those who claimed only 15 were children?
    Last edited by sculptor; April 1st, 2014 at 09:27 AM.
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  61. #60  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    If he were innocent as you say then why didn't he come out and go to court and show everyone how innocent he was?

    He refused to let his own members leave as well, they had no "rights" under his control just like Jim Jones.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
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  62. #61  
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    cosmic
    You have a very biased (and innacurate) view of that incident and those people.
    There was a world of difference between the branch davidians and Jim Jones group.

    The branch davidians had been part of the local economy for almost 60 years before the series of lies and misdirections led up to the atf assaulting the place.
    The affidavit submitted for the warrant was full of lies and mistakes. if a cop showed up at my door with a warrant, that's one thing, but if a couple dozen armed atf agents show up shooting that's a whole 'nuther ball game---especially with the apocalyptic leanings of the teachings from the bible which the branch davidians were embracing.

    The warrant could have been peacefully served on numerous occasions when Koresh was in town or out jogging. Someone in power chose badly.
    I have known many decent compassionate people in law enforcement and the military. I have also known some dishonest schmucks who would rather shoot first and ask questions later. I suspect that the latter were involved here.

    Did you look up who Mark Breault was and why he misled the atf?

    see:
    The legitimacy of the BATF affidavits and warrants will be disputed. After the events of the final assault (see April 19, 1993), a retired FBI agent will examine the original BATF affidavits and say that the agency lacked probable cause for them. In 1996, a Congressional investigation will find that the warrant is replete with “an incredible number of false statements” (see August 2, 1996); one example is its claim, based on witness statements, that the Davidians own a British Boys anti-tank .52 caliber rifle, when in fact they own a Barret light .50 firearm. Possession of the British Boys constitutes a felony, while ownership of the Barret is legal. The affidavit relies heavily on information provided by former Davidian Marc Breault (see February 27 - March 3, 1993); it does not note that Breault left the compound as an opponent of Koresh, a fact that might affect his motives in speaking against Koresh. Nor does the affidavit note that Breault is almost completely blind, but instead claims that he was a bodyguard who “participated in physical training and firearm shooting exercises conducted by Howell. He stood guard armed with a loaded weapon.” Aguilera repeatedly misrepresents and misstates the facts of weapons laws in the affidavit, and misstates the types of weapons parts that Koresh and the Davidians are known to have purchased. The investigation will find that while legitimate evidence exists that would constitute probable cause for a warrant, the BATF agents “responsible for preparing the affidavits knew or should have known that many of the statements were false.” [HOUSE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT, 8/2/1996; HOUSE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT, 8/2/1996]

    Trust me on this dad.
    The truth is buried under piles of stinking bullshit.

    And, there is absolutely no good excuse for 899 federal and local agents of law enforcement to have murdered so many innocents.
    NONE
    ZIP
    ZERO
    NADA

    That sort of thing should not be tolerated in a peaceful society governed by the rule of law.
    Nor should we blindly accept the lame excuses offered for that transgression.

    If we are to remain a nation of laws, then those who enforce those laws should, at the very least, operate within the law.
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  63. #62  
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The big issue is whether the death penalty has any deterrent or other beneficial legal or social effect that so many people claim for it. It's obvious that it doesn't when you look at the different murder rates in other states / countries and whether those countries / states do or don't have the death penalty.
    i agree. i do not believe the death penalty enters into a criminals mind right before he murders. i understand revenge so i understand that i might want someone dead who killed someone i know. but i do not know if that is a right thing to do. my worst feeling about the death penalty is it is possible to kill an innocent man.
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  64. #63  
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    The death penalty is murder.
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  65. #64  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    The death penalty is murder.
    Definition: Murder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).

    As the loss of a human being inflicts enormous grief upon the individuals close to the victim, and the commission of a murder is highly detrimental to the good order within society, most societies both present and in antiquity have considered it a most serious crime worthy of the harshest of punishment. In most countries, a person convicted of murder is typically given a long prison sentence, possibly a life sentence where permitted, and in some countries, the death penalty may be imposed for such an act – though this practice is becoming less common.
    The keyword here being "unlawful" The death penalty is lawful. However that doesn't make it the best solution to the problem.
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  66. #65  
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    Wow, I am surprise that a State that commits Murder would define murder as "killing except when we do it". Its not murder when we do it (its only Fascism when others do it). The Nazis have missed a golden opportunity to define "concentration camps" as camps made by individuals or that do not get official sanction but when the State does it then its lawful and official so its not called a concentration camp but a "Fun Vacation Camp", and lining up villagers in Vietnam asking them to dig their own common grave and shooting them should be defined as "Population adjustments", bombing and killing those who happen to be there when the bomb exploded that's "collateral damage" ...
    So yes, the US says putting someone on an electric chair is not murder, of course it isnt, because its self described as lawful, of course, it makes perfect sense.
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  67. #66  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    So yes, the US says putting someone on an electric chair is not murder, of course it isnt, because its self described as lawful, of course, it makes perfect sense.
    The same could be said of war. The same could be said of police breaking into your home under warrant. This is why we developed a legal system. To delineate our actions.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  68. #67  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Wow, I am surprise that a State that commits Murder would define murder as "killing except when we do it".
    Wow, I'm surprised that somebody who is against capital punishment defines it as murder.
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  69. #68  
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    Murder is a homicide with malice aforethought.

    Malice aforethought is unjustifiable intent to cause harm.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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  70. #69  
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    A State can very well justify the extermination of people in death camps and pass a law that says its not called murder but called "Happy Vacation". (~- but, er, isnt gasing people in a poison gas chamber kind of like murder a little bit? -Hey, it most certainly is NOT "murder", look here, the law clearly states that killing loads people in poison gas chambers is NOT "murder" but legally called a "Happy Vacation" thats the real legal term it says so right here. IF the Bible says something outlandish its true because its in a book, and if a state writes anything in a book its true because its in a book. Now stop thinking, drool and obey, we need to proceed with the unloading of the train we aint got all day~)
    Remember that when a state starts to put people in concentration camps its always justified and it always takes accomplices in the population to go along with it, hence the need to play with words.
    And the death penalty is certainly not accidental but premeditated and with malice aforethought.
    The state can rename it any way they want, they can call it "humanitarian punishment" or "Malthusian rainbow" "organic recycling" "electrifiying treatment"or "Most justified and lawful act in the world" I dont care what they call it, they are killing in a non accidental fashion, and I'm calling that murder.
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  71. #70  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    A State can very well justify the extermination of people in death camps and pass a law that says its not called murder but called "Happy Vacation". (~- but, er, isn't gassing people in a poison gas chamber kind of like murder a little bit? -Hey, it most certainly is NOT "murder", look here, the law clearly states that killing loads people in poison gas chambers is NOT "murder" but legally called a "Happy Vacation" that's the real legal term it says so right here. IF the Bible says something outlandish its true because its in a book, and if a state writes anything in a book its true because its in a book. Now stop thinking, drool and obey, we need to proceed with the unloading of the train we ain't got all day~)
    Remember that when a state starts to put people in concentration camps its always justified and it always takes accomplices in the population to go along with it, hence the need to play with words.
    And the death penalty is certainly not accidental but premeditated and with malice aforethought.
    The state can rename it any way they want, they can call it "humanitarian punishment" or "Malthusian rainbow" "organic recycling" "electrifying treatment"or "Most justified and lawful act in the world" I don't care what they call it, they are killing in a non accidental fashion, and I'm calling that murder.
    The definition of murder is what it is, and the only reason you want it to mean something else, is because you like emotional impact that is attached to murder, better than that of just killing or other forms of expressing deliberate death. Regardless of how I feel about state sponsored executions, I don't need to call them murder to be against them.
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  72. #71  
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    I think its the opposite, Its states that have a habit of concealing their barbaric/murderous/unethical/immoral acts by playing on words;
    ex: The attack on Perl Harbor was not an act of war, did you know that? Since Japan only dropped bombs and torpedoes, but did not land troops in Honolulu then apparently its not an act of war:
    "According to John Kerry, launching cruise missiles at Syria is not a war. Testifying before the US Senate’s Foreign Relations Committee, Kerry said, "President Obama is not asking America to go to war.""
    Of course its not war, who would think that?
    Russia could lauch ICBMs by the dozen, its not like its an act of war or anything, ?

    (Or its only war when others do it, its only fascism when others do it, its only terrorism when others do it, its only murder when others do it, etc)
    Last edited by icewendigo; April 3rd, 2014 at 10:28 AM.
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  73. #72  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I think its the opposite, Its states that have a habit of concealing their barbaric/murderous/unethical/immoral acts by playing on words;
    ex: The attack on Perl Harbor was not an act of war, did you no that? Since Japan only dropped bombs and torpedoes, but did not land troops in Honolulu then apparently its not an act of war:
    "According to John Kerry, launching cruise missiles at Syria is not a war. Testifying before the US Senate’s Foreign Relations Committee, Kerry said, "President Obama is not asking America to go to war.""
    Of course its not war, who would think that?
    Russia could launch ICBMs by the dozen, its not like its an act of war or anything, ?

    (Or its only war when others do it, its only fascism when others do it, its only terrorism when others do it, its only murder when others do it, etc)
    I'm not buying your argument. War has it's own definition and people making claims to the contrary don't change the real definition of it anymore than you trying to make a case to call a legal state execution murder.
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  74. #73  
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    Bad:
    "laws" are fickle beasties prone to change with the drop of a hat.
    In some countries, state executions are viewed as unlawful.
    In some countries, our "super-max" prisons are viewed as cruel and unusual punishment.

    No matter what you call it---causing the death of another human being has the same result.
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  75. #74  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Bad:
    "laws" are fickle beasties prone to change with the drop of a hat.
    In some countries, state executions are viewed as unlawful.
    In some countries, our "super-max" prisons are viewed as cruel and unusual punishment.

    No matter what you call it---causing the death of another human being has the same result.
    That's true, but I'm only arguing that the words should only be used within the confines of their current definition. I would prefer that the death penalty not be used, but that the laws concerning those penalties should be repealed by the people voting for it. It's still killing people to execute them it's just not called murder.
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