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Thread: Justice Dept. Seeks to Curtail Stiff Drug Sentences

  1. #1 Justice Dept. Seeks to Curtail Stiff Drug Sentences 
    AI's Have More Fun Bad Robot's Avatar
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/us...nces.html?_r=0

    I have to say it's about F'ing time. This is a good start to something that's been really wrong in the USA. Maybe we can get more inline with the world norm when it comes to putting citizens in prison?

    Anyway how do the rest of you feel about this new federal policy?


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  3. #2  
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    Mandatory minimum sentencing was a travesty of law, often placing non violent "criminals" in prison longer than violent ones.

    My personal opinion. If there is no victim, there is no crime.

    Thanks for the link


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Anyway how do the rest of you feel about this new federal policy?
    I have never understood why imprisoning an addict would make things better.
    And I have never understood why imprisoning a recreational user would make things better.
    As far as I can tell, it makes things considerably worse for everyone involved.

    The fact it's taken authorities many decades to work that out astounds me.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Anyway how do the rest of you feel about this new federal policy?
    I have never understood why imprisoning an addict would make things better.
    And I have never understood why imprisoning a recreational user would make things better.
    As far as I can tell, it makes things considerably worse for everyone involved.

    The fact it's taken authorities many decades to work that out astounds me.
    Me too!
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  6. #5  
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    leaves 2 conclusions?
    1 "the authorities" ain't that stupid, they had something else in mind
    2 they have their collective heads shoved so far up their collective assholes, that their view of the rest of us really stinks
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  7. #6  
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    So you folks feel that the Attorney General and the President ought to be able to choose which laws they will or will not enforce?
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    So you folks feel that the Attorney General and the President ought to be able to choose which laws they will or will not enforce?
    Not when you phrase it that way!

    OOPS
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    So you folks feel that the Attorney General and the President ought to be able to choose which laws they will or will not enforce?
    Yup.
    That's fine by me.
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  10. #9  
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    Justice Dept. Seeks to Curtail Stiff Drug Sentences


    I don't see the point of sentencing stiffs. Surely they should just be buried. That's the normal approach.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Justice Dept. Seeks to Curtail Stiff Drug Sentences


    I don't see the point of sentencing stiffs. Surely they should just be buried. That's the normal approach.
    My first reaction to the thread title had me picturing them imprisoning viagra users. lol
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    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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  12. #11  
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    The attorney general and president have always had broad discretion about which and how to enforce laws, as well as an obligation to ignore them when they are considered unconstitutional.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    So you folks feel that the Attorney General and the President ought to be able to choose which laws they will or will not enforce?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The attorney general and president have always had broad discretion about which and how to enforce laws, as well as an obligation to ignore them when they are considered unconstitutional.
    You both bring up some good points and I'm sure all the presidents have used that broad discretion to some extent. First I would like to add that the attorney general and president wouldn't take that action unless there was considerable political pressure to do so. If anybody has a major issue with it, it will most likely end up in the Supreme Court for a decision. Either way a bad law will be put on the front burner of both public and judicial attention, and that can't be bad.
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  14. #13  
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    I would expect that either the Administration or the Justice Department to file a legal brief or white paper to explain their position in the following weeks (if not done already), arguing some form of violation of substantive due process as the reason they aren't going to explicitly follow the law.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I would expect that either the Administration or the Justice Department to file a legal brief or white paper to explain their position in the following weeks (if not done already), arguing some form of violation of substantive due process as the reason they aren't going to explicitly follow the law.
    I found another article which goes into a great deal more detail on this topic.

    Justice Dept Seeks To Curtail Stiff Drug Sentences | Cannabis News - Medical Marijuana, Hemp, Marijuana News, Cannabis
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    So you folks feel that the Attorney General and the President ought to be able to choose which laws they will or will not enforce?
    There are dozens, if not hundreds or thousands, of legislated offences in jurisdictions all over the world that have simply not been used or enforced for years if not decades. Every now and again there's a news article here about some obscure, ridiculous law that parliament finally gets around to revoking. Nobody knew the offence even existed in modern times (if they knew it ever existed) and the police and prosecutors haven't charged anyone for years or decades, maybe a century.

    Occasionally there's a joke article here about travel to the US - which cities you're not allowed to do various things in. I believe there may still be a few cities where adultery is still on the statute books as a crime - there certainly were some within the last 20 years - as well as some ludicrous things that no one has ever thought to do in the first place along with archaic rules about what you may and may not do with your horse or livestock in main streets of large cities that are completely clogged with cars and buses.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Justice Dept. Seeks to Curtail Stiff Drug Sentences


    I don't see the point of sentencing stiffs. Surely they should just be buried. That's the normal approach.
    Clever, clever,

    all endeavor,

    shall they all change,

    or simply rearrange?

    jocular
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The attorney general and president have always had broad discretion about which and how to enforce laws, as well as an obligation to ignore them when they are considered unconstitutional.
    THEY, or the laws? jocular
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  19. #18  
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    OK, let's put it here then, for discussion. Clearly a warped disdain for individual rights in a "free nation"! jocular
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    leaves 2 conclusions?
    1 "the authorities" ain't that stupid, they had something else in mind
    2 they have their collective heads shoved so far up their collective assholes, that their view of the rest of us really stinks
    4


    Admittedly, I think it's the public that had their heads up their arses. They kept demanding it. Lots of Christians are overwhelmingly offended by drug use and drug selling and can't seem to be content with any level of punishment or enforcement.

    However, with the economy being what it is, I think those same people are finally starting to look at the problem pragmatically. Weighing the prospect of having their daughter get assaulted when a serial rapist is released, vs. the prospect of having to pay more taxes than they're paying already to build more prisons, vs. the prospect of just plain having to accept that some of the wicked atheists around them might light up a bong.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  21. #20  
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    So, what? What is the way out? A return to the limited prosecution of drug offenders, as was the "reach" in the '50s? Back then, Robert Mitchum admitted to using marijuana, was ostracized for a short time, then went on to become a very well-liked public figure. Contrast, or compare, this with Elton John's proclaim, about 1971, of being bi-sexual, which his backers decried as his "swan-song"; that statement made him a "superstar". In other words, admit to today's vast collection of "judges" that you are something now virtually unheralded publicly, and you may likely be bound up into perpetrualism. jocular
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  22. #21  
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    Lots of Christians are overwhelmingly offended by drug use and drug selling and can't seem to be content with any level of punishment or enforcement.
    And a hundred years ago their forebears were in the forefront of the move to Prohibition. And that turned out so well. About as well as prohibition against these non-alcoholic drugs. It's just different segments of the population who are worst affected. Come to think of it, during prohibition, the wealthier sections of the community were able to indulge in their preferred forms of alcohol in much the same way as the suit-wearing section of the population now escapes enforcement notice for weed and cocaine.
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  23. #22  
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    anyone know the names of the private for profit prisons?

    I wonder how their stocks are trading lately?

    .............
    In California, the prison guards union constantly lobbies for stiffer penalties.

    ..............
    If we decriminalize drugs, maybe we could outlaw farting in public to placate the private prison industry and prison guards unions?
    as, old people tend to fart more, the prisons would turn into old folks homes?
    .....
    oops
    make that old farts homes?
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    anyone know the names of the private for profit prisons?
    Corrections Corps of America (stock CCA) is one of the biggest.

    --
    The so called drug war has failed.
    We really need to take a hard look at Europe and in the State's where there's been successes. Decriminalization of the least problematic drugs and addicts; create infrastructure to treat addicts; shunt resources saved to fight against distributors of the worst drugs. The Attorney general is on the right track, but it's only the first step.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    anyone know the names of the private for profit prisons?

    I wonder how their stocks are trading lately?

    .............
    In California, the prison guards union constantly lobbies for stiffer penalties.

    ..............
    If we decriminalize drugs, maybe we could outlaw farting in public to placate the private prison industry and prison guards unions?
    as, old people tend to fart more, the prisons would turn into old folks homes?
    .....
    oops
    make that old farts homes?
    Good question. Looks bad for both prisoners and prison staff. Reducing prisoner numbers is definitely not good for the business.

    The Truth About Private Prisons | Alternet
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    anyone know the names of the private for profit prisons?
    Corrections Corps of America (stock CCA) is one of the biggest.

    --
    The so called drug war has failed.
    We really need to take a hard look at Europe and in the State's where there's been successes. Decriminalization of the least problematic drugs and addicts; create infrastructure to treat addicts; shunt resources saved to fight against distributors of the worst drugs. The Attorney general is on the right track, but it's only the first step.
    lemme correct that
    stock is CXW down less than 1% today
    up for the month, but down 10% ytd

    I'll check puts later
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    So you folks feel that the Attorney General and the President ought to be able to choose which laws they will or will not enforce?
    It happens in every country. Laws that are defunct or are ridiculous are often revoked by the President/Prime Minster/Government of the day.

    The current drug laws in the US were costly and frankly, obscene. Imprisoning people for minor crimes like recreational drug use was exceptionally costly to the State to prosecute and then house these so called "criminals" and the laws were often unfairly applied.

    You should be happy. The Attorney General and the President may possibly save the Government billions, if not trillions, in the long run. At the very least, it is sound economic policy to curtail the ridiculous penalties that came with the 'War on Drugs'. Legalising some drugs would save the Government billions of dollars per year. And this is not even factoring the personal costs to people and also the cost to society in general, especially when you factor in the seizure of property of innocent people because someone living in their home used drugs and denial of liberty. The pure financial cost to taxpayers and the general cost to society is phenomenal.


    The drug war must be financed by tax dollars. Taxes restrict individual liberty by taking away peoples' freedom to spend their money on goods and services. Currently the government spends $51 billion annually on the war on drugs.14 This does not count potential tax revenue that could be raised if drugs were legalized (because that revenue represents a transfer, not a net cost or benefit).

    More than half a million people are incarcerated in the United States as a result of drug convictions.15 Any cost-benefit analysis of the drug war must count their lost liberty as a cost. Furthermore, not only does the rest of society pay for their incarceration through taxes, but we also lose out on whatever goods and services they might produce for us were they not in prison.


    Other lost liberties arise from the nature of drug transactions. Normal crimes, such as theft, have a victim who has an incentive to report the crime. But normal detection and enforcement methods will not work in the drug war. Why? Because regardless of what the rest of society thinks about drug use, neither drug users nor drug dealers consider themselves victims. To enforce drug prohibition, police must assume powers and pursue practices that are unnecessary for enforcing laws against other crimes. These tactics include searches of people and property suspected of holding drugs, wiretapping and other surveillance, and violent raids of suspects' homes.


    Sometimes these tactics have tragic results. Police mistakes often result in "no-knock" raids of the wrong homes. Since 1985, innocent people's homes have been mistakenly raided around 200 times and, in approximately 50 instances, police killed innocent civilians.16
    Moreover, police routinely confiscate personal property if it is suspected of being involved in the drug trade. The police are not even required to file charges in order to confiscate property, and police departments supplement their budgets with these confiscations. In the 20 years ending in 2009, the authorities seized approximately $11 billion in private assets in this manner, and the seizure rate has been growing at nearly 20 percent per year.17


    Benjamin Powell, The Economics Behind the U.S. Government's Unwinnable War on Drugs | Library of Economics and Liberty

    You only have to look at the statistics of the War on Drugs to realise the laws are a complete failure. The only fault to the Government and the President should be why this was allowed to continue for so long.

    At the very least, the Government should be praised for possibly looking to save taxpayers billions per year. Conservatives should be happy with that, right?
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    Looks to me like the whole thing is a scheme well thought-out in advance, and predicted to pacify the wailing concerns of millions of Americans who decry the "war on drugs", not for personal use reasons, but rather the drain on the Federal budget. Plus, it goes without saying, a great vote-getter! jocular
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Looks to me like the whole thing...
    Could you clarify what you are referring to when you say "the whole thing"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    I have never understood why imprisoning an addict would make things better.
    Because then the sheriff/DA/representative/senator who is running for office can claim he is TOUGH ON CRIME. He doesn't coddle criminals like his opponent, or release hardened violent drug users into your child's school district like that last guy did.
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by redpanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bad robot View Post
    anyway how do the rest of you feel about this new federal policy?
    i have never understood why imprisoning an addict would make things better.
    And i have never understood why imprisoning a recreational user would make things better.
    As far as i can tell, it makes things considerably worse for everyone involved.

    The fact it's taken authorities many decades to work that out astounds me.
    no kidding!!
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  32. #31  
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    The entire justice system in the U.S. is a joke.
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    And, the TSA is a terrorist organization which daily violates our constitutional rights.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Looks to me like the whole thing...
    Could you clarify what you are referring to when you say "the whole thing"?
    Cheers.
    The title of the thread. jocular
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    I have never understood why imprisoning an addict would make things better.
    Because then the sheriff/DA/representative/senator who is running for office can claim he is TOUGH ON CRIME. He doesn't coddle criminals like his opponent, or release hardened violent drug users into your child's school district like that last guy did.
    "Buy" the votes, one way or another. As a kid, I saw the local Alderman hand my Mother & Dad greenback money at vote time (ion our living room, of course!). Could you guess it happened in Crook County, Illinois? jocular
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    "And, behold, I come quickly;" Revelation 22:12


    Fortunately, I never could. jocular
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    And, the TSA is a terrorist organization which daily violates our constitutional rights.
    They are the ones who do the patting down in airports?

    I've never understood the argument that no one must give in to terrorists and live in fear, only to then have things like the TSA giving kids in wheelchairs intrusive patdowns and confiscating stuffed toys of disabled children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    The entire justice system in the U.S. is a joke.

    Yeah...murder one...premediated, my niece.....25 years....no remorse....screw that..
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    And, the TSA is a terrorist organization which daily violates our constitutional rights.
    I have had a head on with them.....twice.....their stupidty was proven when they finally put up the freaking sign that should have been there in the first place.....as I said, at the time, "Was I suppposed to know this by osmosis."

    Then again, I was thrown off a United Flight home, because my eyes were red....(they thought alcohol, but it is from my glaucoma meds)......7 hours waiting in the airport....for next flight....they took NO responsibility.

    Bastards!!

    Sorry Mods...but true
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    And, the TSA is a terrorist organization which daily violates our constitutional rights.
    I have had a head on with them.....twice.....their stupidty was proven when they finally put up the freaking sign that should have been there in the first place.....as I said, at the time, "Was I suppposed to know this by osmosis."

    Then again, I was thrown off a United Flight home, because my eyes were red....(they thought alcohol, but it is from my glaucoma meds)......7 hours waiting in the airport....for next flight....they took NO responsibility.

    Bastards!!

    Sorry Mods...but true
    Even with the possibility of terrorist, flying was still safer than driving a car, but now we have TSA and flying is just not fun anymore. Well the money grubbing airlines have a little to do with the less fun too. Now I prefer not to fly at all.
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/us...nces.html?_r=0

    I have to say it's about F'ing time. This is a good start to something that's been really wrong in the USA. Maybe we can get more inline with the world norm when it comes to putting citizens in prison?

    Anyway how do the rest of you feel about this new federal policy?
    I'm with you on this.
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    And, the TSA is a terrorist organization which daily violates our constitutional rights.
    I have had a head on with them.....twice.....their stupidty was proven when they finally put up the freaking sign that should have been there in the first place.....as I said, at the time, "Was I suppposed to know this by osmosis."

    Then again, I was thrown off a United Flight home, because my eyes were red....(they thought alcohol, but it is from my glaucoma meds)......7 hours waiting in the airport....for next flight....they took NO responsibility.

    Bastards!!

    Sorry Mods...but true
    Even with the possibility of terrorist, flying was still safer than driving a car, but now we have TSA and flying is just not fun anymore. Well the money grubbing airlines have a little to do with the less fun too. Now I prefer not to fly at all.
    I fly often. It is gut wrenching anymore
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post

    I fly often. It is gut wrenching anymore
    I don't and I now check the train fares and schedules if I don't need to cross an ocean.
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  44. #43  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post

    I fly often. It is gut wrenching anymore
    I don't and I now check the train fares and schedules if I don't need to cross an ocean.
    Well SIR BAD ROBOT...I live in Hawai'i! I am just visiting my husband here *L* and doing my CERTIFIED organic canning *L* and tuna"canning and having probably two more eye surgeries.

    I fly about 4 times at least a year.....

    I hate it

    You may now kiss my.........

    <font size=0> my hand
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  45. #44  
    AI's Have More Fun Bad Robot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post

    I fly often. It is gut wrenching anymore
    I don't and I now check the train fares and schedules if I don't need to cross an ocean.
    Well SIR BAD ROBOT...I live in Hawai'i! I am just visiting my husband here *L* and doing my CERTIFIED organic canning *L* and tuna"canning and having probably two more eye surgeries.

    I fly about 4 times at least a year.....

    I hate it

    You may now kiss my.........

    <font size=0> my hand
    This might sound kind of dumb, but when you live in Hawaii you sometime4s have to suffer.
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  46. #45  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post

    I fly often. It is gut wrenching anymore
    I don't and I now check the train fares and schedules if I don't need to cross an ocean.
    Well SIR BAD ROBOT...I live in Hawai'i! I am just visiting my husband here *L* and doing my CERTIFIED organic canning *L* and tuna"canning and having probably two more eye surgeries.

    I fly about 4 times at least a year.....

    I hate it

    You may now kiss my.........

    <font size=0> my hand
    This might sound kind of dumb, but when you live in Hawaii you sometime4s have to suffer.
    *laughing* it is quite painful......especially when my husand lives 3000 miles away! *chuckle*....it is GRUELING, I say, GRUELING and the plan is for me to be home late, for me, but Oct. 1......ocean will be perfect temp..........the snowbirds won't be there......golf course and beach kind of to myself!

    I will have to tough it out...
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