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Thread: Compensationary Justice

  1. #1 Compensationary Justice 
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    Compensationary Justice

    In these economically challenging times could we or rather should seek to reduce prison
    populations and the economic burden of said prison populations by replacing incarceration
    with a more compensatory form of direct justice where the criminal is made to go and work
    directly for their victims or victims instead of being sent to prison. Obviously this would only
    be a viable option for criminals that are not considered to pose a further risk or danger.
    It's all very well when someone is robbed or burgled to see the person/people responsible
    go down for the crime, but how does this really benefit the victim other than the sense of
    justice? It doesn't really, but having the criminals made to come and work for them to 'work
    off' their crime probarbly would. So this would benefit victims and save a fortune in cost of
    housing and securing such massive numbers of people in jail.


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    I have never been a fan of the prison system. I find it primitive, archaic and long outdated.

    Yes, there are some worthless people that deserve lifetime prison sentences. For those- I say kill 'em.
    The rest should be put to actual work, not be a drain on economic resources.


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    The way I see it is if some *rse breaks into my house and makes off with my stuff then I want to see them sweating their n*ts off digging my garden,
    not sitting in a prison cell playing xbox all day.
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    Even when that would be appropriate, spam link deleted negates the possibility.
    Last edited by adelady; March 18th, 2013 at 05:15 PM. Reason: apparent spam
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    Where would these jobs come from?There are already many people who have never committed any crimes and are unemployed and can't find work so they can pay their bills. This would be taking jobs away from them. Also, work for no pay could be seen as slavery.Edit: I used to have a job dealing with people in the criminal justice system . Prisons are not fun places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    Where would these jobs come from?There are already many people who have never committed any crimes and are unemployed and can't find work so they can pay their bills. This would be taking jobs away from them. Also, work for no pay could be seen as slavery.
    It would only be slavery if they had no choice, so let the courts give them the choice, work for the victim or prison. Thats seems fair enough to me, and also believe me I'd have no problems finding things for them to do, if they're very lucky that might even actually learn some skills from it.
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    Yeah, I suppose a parent could revel in having that convicted pedophile babysit the kid as fair compensation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Yeah, I suppose a parent could revel in having that convicted pedophile babysit the kid as fair compensation.
    No, his punishment would be cleaning the bear pen at the zoo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Yeah, I suppose a parent could revel in having that convicted pedophile babysit the kid as fair compensation.
    No, his punishment would be cleaning the bear pen at the zoo.
    You're too kind.

    Perhaps with intergalactic travel and the discovery of new inhabitable worlds we can sentence the bad guys to life on Earth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Perhaps with intergalactic travel and the discovery of new inhabitable worlds we can sentence the bad guys to life on Earth.
    Nah, I say we clean this dump up and let the bad guys live on a Moon around Jupiter or on Mars.

    Venus if they really piss us off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The way I see it is if some *rse breaks into my house and makes off with my stuff then I want to see them sweating their n*ts off digging my garden,
    not sitting in a prison cell playing xbox all day.
    You would want the person who stole your stuff to have further access to your property while he digs up your garden? Possibly to steal even more of your stuff because then, that person would have even greater access to your property?

    And who would monitor and guard these individuals as they work for the victims of crime? Who would keep a constant eye on them to make sure they do not re offend?

    It is an idealistic notion. But you also risk putting the victims of crime and those who may feel even more vulnerable after being a victim of a crime, in a position where they could become a victim of crime again or live in absolute fear that the person who had broken into their home and taken all of their belongings and who had violated their home would somehow have access to them and their property yet again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The way I see it is if some *rse breaks into my house and makes off with my stuff then I want to see them sweating their n*ts off digging my garden,
    not sitting in a prison cell playing xbox all day.
    You would want the person who stole your stuff to have further access to your property while he digs up your garden? Possibly to steal even more of your stuff because then, that person would have even greater access to your property?

    And who would monitor and guard these individuals as they work for the victims of crime? Who would keep a constant eye on them to make sure they do not re offend?

    It is an idealistic notion. But you also risk putting the victims of crime and those who may feel even more vulnerable after being a victim of a crime, in a position where they could become a victim of crime again or live in absolute fear that the person who had broken into their home and taken all of their belongings and who had violated their home would somehow have access to them and their property yet again.
    Perhaps there is at least a part of me that thinks they could be redeemed with some good old fashioned hard work, and maybe if they were put in a position where they could learn some skills as well they could turn their back on crime. Learn some responsibility by having to face up to their victims and understand what they did was wrong and have an actual way of redemption by doing something positive for their victims. I guess this would only work with certain types of prisoners, but when you learn for example that their are more people in prison here in the UK for motoring offences than any other crime, I really do think this seems to be some what of a waste to just lock people away forget about them, when perhaps so many of them could be put on a different path in life and start to actually contribute to society in general.
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  14. #13  
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    [QUOTE=Ascended;404448]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    E]

    Perhaps there is at least a part of me that thinks they could be redeemed with some good old fashioned hard work, and maybe if they were put in a position where they could learn some skills as well they could turn their back on crime. Learn some responsibility by having to face up to their victims and understand what they did was wrong and have an actual way of redemption by doing something positive for their victims. I guess this would only work with certain types of prisoners, but when you learn for example that their are more people in prison here in the UK for motoring offences than any other crime, I really do think this seems to be some what of a waste to just lock people away forget about them, when perhaps so many of them could be put on a different path in life and start to actually contribute to society in general.
    This is already done. People are sentenced to do community service. In some US prisons, you are required to do some form of work while you are in prison. There are also work release programs, where you go to work somewhere during the day and then go back to prison.

    I think it is important to clarify, that when someone is convicted on criminal charges, they are found guilty of a crime against the State. Their punishment - imprisonment, fine, picking up rubbish in the street, etc. - is paying a debt to the State, not to an individual person.

    If you want personal compensation for someone who has done you wrong, that is what civil law is for. You can sue someone and then get compensation for how you have been harmed/injured. It's not that unusual for someone to be arrested on criminal charges and then also sued for a civil offense, for the same thing. Sometimes this happens because they get found not guilty in criminal court so the victim decides to sue because the burden of proof is lower in Civil Court. (This refers to English Common Law - the law in English speaking countries).
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    Nicely said, Alec.

    Actually, according to the United Nations, governments must offer meaningful work to all prisoners who can safely work; however, the US is far from this.

    Theoretically, incarceration serves three purposes — protect society, punish convicts, and rehabilitate convicts. Nowadays, the rehabilitation aspect in many US prison is pretty much defunct.
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    [QUOTE=Alec Bing;404696]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    E]

    Perhaps there is at least a part of me that thinks they could be redeemed with some good old fashioned hard work, and maybe if they were put in a position where they could learn some skills as well they could turn their back on crime. Learn some responsibility by having to face up to their victims and understand what they did was wrong and have an actual way of redemption by doing something positive for their victims. I guess this would only work with certain types of prisoners, but when you learn for example that their are more people in prison here in the UK for motoring offences than any other crime, I really do think this seems to be some what of a waste to just lock people away forget about them, when perhaps so many of them could be put on a different path in life and start to actually contribute to society in general.
    This is already done. People are sentenced to do community service. In some US prisons, you are required to do some form of work while you are in prison. There are also work release programs, where you go to work somewhere during the day and then go back to prison.

    I think it is important to clarify, that when someone is convicted on criminal charges, they are found guilty of a crime against the State. Their punishment - imprisonment, fine, picking up rubbish in the street, etc. - is paying a debt to the State, not to an individual person.

    If you want personal compensation for someone who has done you wrong, that is what civil law is for. You can sue someone and then get compensation for how you have been harmed/injured. It's not that unusual for someone to be arrested on criminal charges and then also sued for a civil offense, for the same thing. Sometimes this happens because they get found not guilty in criminal court so the victim decides to sue because the burden of proof is lower in Civil Court. (This refers to English Common Law - the law in English speaking countries).

    I agree with the point you are making there Alec and yes there are community payback schemes which I support and happen to think are a very good idea, I do though still think victims of crimes should get more from the legal process and having the criminals come and work for them is just one way.

    Don't mean to be picky here either but just for your future reference, crimes here in England are not 'against the state', there is no such thing as this. Crimes in England are against Regina.
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    over 1/2 our (USA) prison population are in for "victimless crimes" (read drugs)

    so---------3 cheers for work release, and community service for them

    .............
    from my rather frugal perspective, I think a lot of prosicutors are more interested in winning their court battles than in any form of reasonable justice---for society, or for victims. And, they don't seem to care how much it cost. They'd rather blow millions of dollars on a pointless execution, than see that money providing education, or medical care for the people.
    I doubt that there is much justice in our "justice system".
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    from my rather frugal perspective, I think a lot of prosicutors are more interested in winning their court battles than in any form of reasonable justice---for society, or for victims. And, they don't seem to care how much it cost. They'd rather blow millions of dollars on a pointless execution, than see that money providing education, or medical care for the people.
    I doubt that there is much justice in our "justice system".
    I can't speak with any authority as to the US justice system, but from the tv cop and legal shows it does kind of give the impression the 'process' is everything. It does seem more about winning the cases than the people involved, also I can't get my head around the plea bargaining system. It seems, from tv at least and I know that's not the best source, that someone facing a 15 year prison strech can cop a plea and get 10 years by saying they committed several hundred other crimes. Now other than improving the police clear up rates I really can't see how that one works out, or the idea sometimes that the criminal might be told they'd be tried for 20 other serious seperate crimes amd would be bound to be convicted of at least one of them if they don't confess to several hundred other crimes. None of this seems logical or like actual justice.
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    There is some truth to it but T.V. shows are still T.V. shows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    I have never been a fan of the prison system. I find it primitive, archaic and long outdated.

    Yes, there are some worthless people that deserve lifetime prison sentences. For those- I say kill 'em.
    The rest should be put to actual work, not be a drain on economic resources.
    Unfortunately I believe a court hearing for capital punishment costs more than a court hearing for a life sentence? Personally, I see nothing wrong with forming a jury, presenting evidence, and giving the judge a .45 colt. But, meh, I guess is would be morally incorrect to kill a murderer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    But, meh, I guess is would be morally incorrect to kill a murderer.
    Why?
    Seems fair, to me.
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    In a sense, justice can be perverted by mathematics. At some point, plea negotiations can switch from facts to numbers. Prosecutors champion the "maximin" (that is, the highest minimum that a defendant will serve — "I want him/her to serve at least x years), and the defense champion the "minimax" (that is, the lowest maximum that a defendant will serve — "I don't want him/her serving more than y years"). If the maximin is less than the minimax, they reach a plea agreement. If not, they go to trial.
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    Fifteen year old girl sits in my class...
    Has great difficulty sitting in one place for more than a few minutes .
    Flirty with her peers often wearing a low cuts that show her tattooed cleavage until told by adult to cover up.
    Always missing something--book, things to write with etc.
    In trouble several times last year for drug use...been suspended more time than one can count on one hand.
    She missed another week of school last year after a boy friend beat her up and she miscarriaged.
    Settled her down and watched her blaze through an algebra II math quiz on manipulating radical expression 100% correct and faster than any of her peers--she's just shy of officially gifted/talented.

    Her mom is gone.
    Her dad is in and out of the hospital and dying of aids.
    No one responsible from her extended family has stepped forward into this girl's life.

    "She *rse breaks into my house and makes off with my stuff"
    Is prison going to help this girl meet her full potential? Sadly, in America we put vastly more money into punishing than trying to help people resolve the root problems.
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    but having the criminals made to come and work for them to 'work
    off' their crime probarbly would. So this would benefit victims and save a fortune in cost of
    housing and securing such massive numbers of people in jail.
    So let us use an example of holding up a mom and pop grocery store that doesn't have any place for someone to "work off" what they stole, just how do you make the prisoner work when they cannot go back to where they did their crime? Then what if the criminal is not capable of handling a job because they aren't smart enough to learn how to do anything at the place they stole from. Or what if the criminal is a drug addict and only shows up stoned for work or worse yet sells drugs from where they are working to others there or customers?

    Putting convicts to work off their time is , to me ridiculous, for it doesn't help anyone but the criminal and can create many other problems for wherever those convicts are working. It is best to revamp the prison system to make it the worse place you'd want to be, so that criminals won't enjoy staying there but would rather try to stay out of prison. Making life miserable, but not inhumane, would be a better way to go for it then does what the prisons are made to do...punish those who do wrong. At the same time changing laws that put non violent criminals into long term prison times when there are many vicious criminals who need to be there.
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    It is best to revamp the prison system to make it the worse place you'd want to be,
    Probably the worst plan ever. It presumes people consider circumstances and consequences for their actions which science resoundingly tells us doesn't happen in the most crime prone age groups of young adults because their brains aren't even fully developed.

    Here is just one of many studies that refute that presumption:
    "
    This study examines the premise that criminals make informed and calculated decisions. The findings suggest that 76% of active criminals and 89% of the most violent criminals either perceive no risk of apprehension or are incognizant of the likely punishments for their crimes."
    http://aler.oxfordjournals.org/content/4/2/295.abstract
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    so that criminals won't enjoy staying there but would rather try to stay out of prison.
    How many sane people would ever enjoy prison, horrible food, no family or friends, no alchol, threat of assaults, gangs, drugs, catching diseases and oh yes watching your life slowly drain away. I mean seriously do really need to make prison any worse?, or do we need to start offering people a better way, an alternative path in life with role models that promote possitive values and responsibility. Would we be better off showing people when they leave school how to actually go and get a decent job so they can get a house, car and start a family, show them that they can and would be happy without getting involved with crime, and for the ones who already have then equally show them a path back onto the straight and narrow. But lets give people a chance in life, lets give them some real hope and way to live good happy prosperous lives and then much of the crime will simply dissappear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    It is best to revamp the prison system to make it the worse place you'd want to be,
    Probably the worst plan ever. It presumes people consider circumstances and consequences for their actions which science resoundingly tells us doesn't happen in the most crime prone age groups of young adults because their brains aren't even fully developed.

    Here is just one of many studies that refute that presumption:
    "
    This study examines the premise that criminals make informed and calculated decisions. The findings suggest that 76% of active criminals and 89% of the most violent criminals either perceive no risk of apprehension or are incognizant of the likely punishments for their crimes."
    http://aler.oxfordjournals.org/content/4/2/295.abstract
    But most prison systems today offer very good food, two men to a cell, AC and heat with workout equipment and exercise yard to name a few things inside. With that kind of living conditions why wouldn't you choose to "go bad" if you already knew that the inside of jail would be better than where your at now perhaps? I know not everywhere that happens but for many long term prisons that's the way it is so that's why I say that making it more difficult for the inmates would be a better way to at least try and solve the problem because nothing else does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    But most prison systems today offer very good food, two men to a cell, AC and heat with workout equipment and exercise yard to name a few things inside. With that kind of living conditions why wouldn't you choose to "go bad" if you already knew that the inside of jail would be better than where your at now perhaps? I know not everywhere that happens but for many long term prisons that's the way it is so that's why I say that making it more difficult for the inmates would be a better way to at least try and solve the problem because nothing else does.
    You make it sound as prison is considered a desirable, or at the very least, not that bad a place to be. That is not the case.
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    The thing is Cosmo. If more than 3/4 of criminals and nearly 90% of violent criminals "either perceive no risk of apprehension or are incognizant of the likely punishments for their crimes" than it doesn't' matter whether prison is like a Medieval dungeon or a Penthouse of a 5-star hotel overlooking Waikiki beach, their thinking and reasoning never get to that point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The thing is Cosmo. If more than 3/4 of criminals and nearly 90% of violent criminals "either perceive no risk of apprehension or are incognizant of the likely punishments for their crimes" than it doesn't' matter whether prison is like a Medieval dungeon or a Penthouse of a 5-star hotel overlooking Waikiki beach, their thinking and reasoning never get to that point.
    Anyone can consider their own thought process when they decide to speed on the highway. Does anyone honestly contemplate the cost of the speeding ticket, or ruining their perfect driver rating, or the car insurance premium multi-year surcharge associated with speeding just to get home five minutes sooner? No. No one really expects to get caught.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Anyone can consider their own thought process when they decide to speed on the highway. Does anyone honestly contemplate the cost of the speeding ticket, or ruining their perfect driver rating, or the car insurance premium multi-year surcharge associated with speeding just to get home five minutes sooner? No. No one really expects to get caught.
    I used to drive like an idiot. Lead foot- the whole nine yards.

    After a few years of getting tickets and shelling out a few grand (Total cost, not all at once...), my driving tamed down.

    What a way to learn, yet, I drive responsibly, now. I've had no accidents or incidents in years, nor have I been pulled over over anything in years. Something for which I am grateful as I now am driving around with my son or children in the truck.
    Nothing snapped into place. I did not have an epiphany or anything. In fact, I was driving like a normal and sane human being for quite a while before I noticed that I was driving considerately and properly by the lack of tickets.

    I, for one, am glad that I never had to kill someone, get a DUI (I drove fast, but I never drove after drinking any amount) or ruin someones life with a traffic accident to learn how to drive like an adult.
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    Your brain fully developed and was able to sort out risk versus rewards from your pleasure center. It's likely even without tickets you would have slowed down. Criminality isn't the only evidence that young adults have trouble thinking about consequences--the Army's spent millions trying to figure out how to convince its youngest Soldiers not to jump on their crotch rocket and go 100 mpg down the closest highway ten minutes after getting home from leave for the same reasons. When I consider all the stupid dangerous stuff still I did before I was 25 just to be cool or to show courage or impress someone else I'm somewhat amazed I got this far. A young adults brain say's "F ya, hold my beer, I'll show you" a fully mature one says "Hell no, I that could kill me."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    You make it sound as prison is considered a desirable, or at the very least, not that bad a place to be. That is not the case.
    Thank you Neverfly.

    I wonder how many people who think prison is so fun have ever been in prison, had a friend or family member who was in prison, worked in a prison or had a friend or family member who worked in a prison.

    I have never been inside a prison myself, but I had a job which involved me speaking to people in prison pretty much every day. There is no privacy and you can hear everything that is going on around the caller. It is very hard for people on both sides of the phone line to have a normal conversation. It does not sound like a pleasant experience and the sound of someone telephoning from a prison is instantly recognizable and sounds like no other phone call. You would not mistake a phone call from prison with a phone call from Disneyland.

    I also dated someone who taught English in a prison.

    If you have actually been inside a prison and seen what goes on first hand, I will be more inclined to pay attention to what you have to say about prison life.
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