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Thread: Suspicious Activity

  1. #1 Suspicious Activity 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    This is a little different. I'm not even sure if a crime has been or is in the process of being committed. My next door neighbour is 79 years old. He's a great guy, a smart investor who worked all his life in a factory yet managed to make himself a couple of million dollars. I know most but not all of his family and he has helped each of his kids financially.

    Recently things have got quite interesting next door. I had heard from one of his adult kids that old Bert was having an internet affair with some young 50 year old tart from across the pond. She's actually from Europe, Belgium I believe. Anyway this woman phones him at least 10 times a day from Europe. She has visited once before and has again reappeared this week. While she is here, Bert's kids are not allowed to visit or see their old man. The drapes are pulled shut and Bert is nowhere to be seen. Of course the kids believe she is here only for one thing, his money. Not sure if gold digger or floosie is the proper term but Bert's kids think she is here to marry their father and thus be entitled to his fortune when he passes on.

    Anyway there isn't much I can do. I tell them to just go over there and demand to see Dad or just walk in. I'm sitting back and having fun watching his kids go nuts worrying about this. What I'm wondering is if there is a legitimate reason for the kids to call the police? When does suspicion turn to accusation? Is a younger woman meeting a rich guy on the internet from across the Atlantic and then moving in with him worthy of suspicion? The kids know her name, but can they get a criminal background check on her from her own country's police?


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    If they're so worried and there's so much money at stake, a modest investment in a private checking service sounds OK. I'm sure there are services for both employers and for ordinary folks concerned about exactly this kind of international internet stuff so they'd be reasonably findable. Whether their fees are reasonable is a matter for individual judgement.


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    If he's gonna get a gold digger- he's doin' it wrong. In her fifties?
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    having been tricked into marriage that ended up being for citizenship only, Id suggest they notify ICE. U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement If there is an alert on her before they apply for her citizenship, she will have to be extremely convincing that her affection for him is legitimate. And they will not likely let the citizenship go through without being allowed to talk to his children. They will then be able to let their specific concerns known.

    They can also talk to their dad about a prenuptial agreement. if she gets all offended about it then its likely she is after only his money. Anyone that bars their partners own children from seeing them seems fishy to me. They should take it seriously and have her investigated by a PI. Find out if she has done this before. Usually, people who do this are seasoned veterans at doing it.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    What I'm wondering is if there is a legitimate reason for the kids to call the police?
    You should keep your nose out of other peoples lives, especially when you know that your neighbor is doing ok for you see him every now and then and don't hear anything that is going wrong from him. Or are you just a busy body trying to create problems when there's nothing there?
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    I don't think it is fair to attack zinjanthropos and assume he is being a busy body. I had neighbors that minded their own business when my first husband was beating the hell out of me. I had neighbors that didn't trust my second husband but kept their thoughts to themselves. Part of being neighborly is looking out for each other. I wish my neighbors had put their nose in my business all those years ago. It would have spared me years of heartache had I known that anyone out there cared enough to help. I felt isolated and unable to do anything about my situation for the most part.

    This neighbor is more than just some guy that lives in the next house. He seems to know him pretty well and there appears to be at least a mild friendship there. He is also elderly. Considering how often elderly people are manipulated out of their life savings and social security checks, sometimes killed and buried int eh back yard so that the checks keep coming, I think it is very reasonable that zinjanthropos ask for our advice on behalf of his neighbor's kids. And that is what he did. He has said there is nothing that he, himself, can do but wondered how he should advise the kids who obviously have a legitimate concern. This is their father.

    And the red flags are real. It is highly unusual that a legitimate well intentioned love interest would ban their partners own children from seeing them. And its rare that a woman would get involved with a man 30 years older than herself. I imagine if he were poor or living on just Social Security (maybe $1000/month) that she wouldn't see him as such an attractive prospect. if she is a decent person and has good reason to act the way she does, then this would all blow over and she would appreciate that people actually care about the man enough to look out for him.
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    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Some interesting concerns being raised here.

    Who's to say that the kids are entitled to the old man's money anyway? He has as much right to blow it all or leave it to a cat charity.

    The man's age seems to be raising a concern that he might be vulnerable to manipulation, though his apparent interest in the opposite sex seems to be functioning well enough. I'm sure the kids would also be less concerned about the matter was there not a significant amount of money in the equation.

    This is a family matter as I see it from what has been posted and it's up to the family to improve their lines of communication.
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    I agree with scheherazade on this, so long as the guy is compos mentis and isn't any way being coerced then the guy should be allowed to do whatever he wants, with who ever he wants regardless of the money involved. For the sake of family relations though if his children are really bothered about the financial situation then they should just be honest enough to go and talk to the guy about it, then if he is going to leave them something that's up to him and if not they'll know where they stand. But really I say let the old guy have some fun, heck you only live once and none of us really know how long we've got.
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    The blinds pulled shut and people disallowed from the house- it's also a matter of privacy. Yes, it may look suspicious. But what if the kids stormed the house only to find him wearing nothing but a collar and her with a riding crop?
    They'd all feel humiliated. I'm not trying to be vulgar or crude, I'm making a point- That he is permitted his own choices and privacy and violating that is just as bad as ignoring something suspicious.

    I think their best bet should be, in an ideal world, to go to the man and express their concerns for his health and safety. If he assures them he knows what he is doing, they should express gratitude that he's alright and lend their support.
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    I think it is fair to err on the side of caution. I don't recommend that zinjanthropos get directly involved. But if I were one of the kids, I agree that they should just confront dad about it. If not satisfied with his response, I would take it further. But keep in mind the kids might be concerned about their dad's safety, not just his money. After all, he IS their father. Call me crazy, but they may actually love the guy.They know what his cognitive abilities are better than any of us. For all we know he is mentally unstable or he is perfectly fine and has decided that his kids deserve nothing. Maybe he wants to leave all his wealth to his favorite charity and none of them will get it. Maybe the woman is a scammer and he is fully aware of it and taking advantage as he can. Getting kinky sex from a woman 30 years younger, promising her lots of money but doing nothing to ensure that she will get it. I personally love that idea. Gold diggers should be left looking like a fool because their plans backfired and they ended up being the ones used.

    But there is no reason to jump down zinjanthropos' throat just for asking what if anything should be done or said to the kids who have shared the situation with him.
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  12. #11  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    I had a neighbor who I knew for many years and he didn't come out of his home but a few times every month and that's when I talked with him. He talked to me about all sorts of stuff and if he were in any problems he could have easily told me then what was happening. He also had my phone number which, at times, would call me for various reasons so if anything were wrong in his home he had many opportunities to talk to many neighbors if he desired to do so.

    He told me once that his grandkids were after his money and was spending it any way he wanted because it was his, he earned it and if he didn't want to leave anything to them that was his prerogative, not theirs.

    That's why I was a little harsh when I said what I did for if anyone needed help there's always a time that they can and should tell or ask for help. I'm sorry that others here couldn't resolve their domestic disputes through legal channels for if I were being abused I would never put up with it and call the police when I had the time to do so and there's always time that the partner who abuses isn't there.
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    I'm sorry that others here couldn't resolve their domestic disputes through legal channels for if I were being abused I would never put up with it and call the police when I had the time to do so and there's always time that the partner who abuses isn't there.
    You never know what you might or might not do when you're living in fear of an abusive person. There's always time that the abusive person isn't there? Oh goody. And there's also time, if you do manage to get away, for the abusive person to track you down and harm you then.

    Just a little statistical titbit for future reference. The time when a woman is in most danger of being killed or seriously injured by an abusive partner is at the point of leaving. (As well as significant points thereafter, like divorce papers being served.) Women know this instinctively - they're more afraid to leave than to stay. So please try and avoid this particular clanger if ever you're involved in other discussions where this subject comes up.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    You never know what you might or might not do when you're living in fear of an abusive person.
    I would hope that anyone who is being abused gets away from their abuser to a safe house at least. Police can make sure that people who need to be protected will be by removing them from the community they liver in if need be.

    Fear is something abusers use to intimidate their victims many times and the abused are fearful they might be harmed or found by their abuser but that's a chance the abused must take in oreder to be set free of being abused. Easy to say, I know, but sometimes hard to do. It takes guts to try and get out of that type of relationship but being abused isn't any way to live so taking the chance of telling the police is something they must do when they can .
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    Fear is something abusers use to intimidate their victims many times and the abused are fearful they might be harmed or found by their abuser but that's a chance the abused must take in oreder to be set free of being abused. Easy to say, I know, but sometimes hard to do. It takes guts to try and get out of that type of relationship but being abused isn't any way to live so taking the chance of telling the police is something they must do when they can .
    Right, that's it. I take it that you've never been in this position yourself. You've already seen that one woman on this thread has been physically abused by her husband. I'm another one.

    Are you seriously telling us that we lacked the guts to deal with our situation? That we failed to do what you think people in our position "must" do to escape?

    If you can't find the words to say something useful and non-insulting to people who've, some way, some time, somehow, managed to get ourselves out of danger, it would be better to say nothing at all.
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    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    I am sorry to observe that this thread is becoming polarized. The irony of the following ad on this thread on a science forum rather astounds me.



    While it is true that intervention can be appropriate in some circumstances, inappropriate intervention and accusation has ruined many lives as well. I also know that the police often cannot intervene unless the victim is willing to press charges and many are not willing to start down that path.

    It can sometimes be hard to discern where the line for intervention should be and from reading the opening post several times, it appears that this discussion is getting rather adrift of it's original intent.
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  17. #16  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    What I'm wondering is if there is a legitimate reason for the kids to call the police?
    You should keep your nose out of other peoples lives, especially when you know that your neighbor is doing ok for you see him every now and then and don't hear anything that is going wrong from him. Or are you just a busy body trying to create problems when there's nothing there?
    Actually it's the other way around. Since this woman has showed up I get grilled every day by at least one of the kids. Most of the time they want to know if I've seen their Dad or if I've noticed anything at all. I don't know what they expect me to say, I'm hardly home during the day as it is. Most of Bert's kids live within a kilometre of his place and one lives 6 doors down. I'm just conveniently situated, and they take advantage of it.

    I can't help it now whenever I'm driving home or even while at home, thinking about what might be going on but I know it isn't my business. I'm in Canada and where I live there's about a foot of snow on the ground. The reason I say that is because tonight as the sun was going down I actually saw the old guy and his gal out in his backyard sitting around a fire if you can believe that. First time I've seen him in a week. Should I tell his kids that he's alive at least? Anyway it will only be a matter of time before one of the kids contacts me again. At least the suspicion of foul play I've been hearing about is gone for the moment and that's a relief.

    Strange situation. I thought just like Neverfly, the old guy is getting a little something of what he's been missing. I'm wondering if he's actually paying for her services, but I better not say anything to his kids. My advice to the kids is the same as it's always been, just go over there and knock on the friggin' door if you're worried or call the cops if really concerned. I just hope no one does something stupid, including the kids.

    What I really wanted to know from you guys is if there is an agency I could advise the kids to call if they really want to find out about this Belgian woman. I think the next time one contacts me I'll advise them to get a private investigator as was suggested.
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    While it is true that intervention can be appropriate in some circumstances, inappropriate intervention and accusation has ruined many lives as well.
    That was why my original suggestion was for a "modest" investment in checking things out. I was also implying that "modest" should also apply to the amount of energy invested, not just the money. I had no idea that anyone would think of the police as an appropriate initial response.

    I'd think that finding out some basic information before reaching any conclusions or considering any form of action would be prudent.
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    That's why I was a little harsh when I said what I did for if anyone needed help there's always a time that they can and should tell or ask for help. I'm sorry that others here couldn't resolve their domestic disputes through legal channels for if I were being abused I would never put up with it and call the police when I had the time to do so and there's always time that the partner who abuses isn't there.
    I've never understood why people think they would know how they would act in a particular situation if they have never been in that situation. When I was in an abusive marriage I would hear plenty of women talk shit about what they would and would not put up with. Those women, like the childless parenting experts, don't know squat what they are talking about.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I've never understood why people think they would know how they would act in a particular situation if they have never been in that situation. When I was in an abusive marriage I would hear plenty of women talk shit about what they would and would not put up with. Those women, like the childless parenting experts, don't know squat what they are talking about.
    What if I knew you or saw you everyday at work and I noticed a few things that aroused my suspicions. Maybe something physical like a bruise or a change in demeanor, emotionally withdrawn and despondent. These are signs that I might suspect abuse. Where do I draw the line, when do I get involved? It's not an easy decision.

    Perhaps these women who you say don't know shit about abuse were only mentioning it in the hope that you would do something to help yourself. Perhaps psychologically they were indirectly trying to help you. They may have suspected an abuse problem but they had to weigh a lot of factors, one possibly destroying any relationship they may have with you. The most common mistake people make, not just for abusive marriages, is that they are alone. Plenty of people out there that have been through it.
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    Perhaps these women who you say don't know shit about abuse were only mentioning it in the hope that you would do something to help yourself.
    The only people that can really help are the professionals who have experience in assessing just how dangerous the situation is and how much more dangerous it is likely to become if the abuser discovered plans for the wife and any children to leave.

    "Helping yourself" in an abusive household is simply a matter of getting by. Not making too much of a fuss when you're scared out of your wits or covering up the bruises. Nowadays there are at least online resources - not much help when the control freak of the household also locks access to the internet and obsessively checks logs regardless - but it is possible, eventually, to find an agency that can help. From what I've seen on some of those sites it's closely akin to a police raid or a military operation. Everything secret until the last possible moment and the whole thing is called off if the other party is in the vicinity.

    Just telling people that they're living their lives wrong and not looking after themselves properly is no good and may do some harm. A woman in this position will fear that word will spread, it may get back to the abuser and that will that day's excuse for another row, another fist flailing in her general direction. When you live in fear, you're afraid of everything and anything that might make it worse.

    If you really, truly want to help someone in such a position, get hold of information leaflets or contact details for agencies that know what they're doing. Don't dump them in her workspace. Stick them up in the cubicles in the ladies loo. Hand one out to everyone 'because you probably know someone with this problem'. Put a stock of them on a noticeboard. Whatever you do, don't single her out unless she's already public with it.
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    Zinjan, you kind hit the nail on the had- the thing is, while many people may be a opinionated, no one knows when it is really proper to speak up and when it is not.
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I've never understood why people think they would know how they would act in a particular situation if they have never been in that situation. When I was in an abusive marriage I would hear plenty of women talk shit about what they would and would not put up with. Those women, like the childless parenting experts, don't know squat what they are talking about.
    What if I knew you or saw you everyday at work and I noticed a few things that aroused my suspicions. Maybe something physical like a bruise or a change in demeanor, emotionally withdrawn and despondent. These are signs that I might suspect abuse. Where do I draw the line, when do I get involved? It's not an easy decision.
    You make a good point. because if there is actually a dangerous situation, doing something to help can make things worse.




    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Perhaps these women who you say don't know shit about abuse were only mentioning it in the hope that you would do something to help yourself. Perhaps psychologically they were indirectly trying to help you.
    Not the case in any of the instances I witnessed. These were women who knew nothing about me. It would be conversations I overheard between other people or loud mouth idiots yapping about what they were watching I was very quiet and withdrawn during those times. I didn't tell anyone what was happening to me. And the women talking shit were just show boating trying to pretend that they were somehow better than the abused women and that the abused women were somehow less amazing than they were. Basically, they were compounding the abuse without even realizing it. When an abused woman hears people make remarks like this, it amplifies her feelings of worthlessness and guilt for being abused, like they deserve it. yes, the abused is often made to feel guilty for the abuse they suffer.

    Another irony i ran into once, was at work there was one woman always talking crap. Then one day I decided to attend a support group and guess who was there blubbering about how she had been getting her butt kicked by a husband half her size for years. Sometimes the crap talking is just a person's way of acting out denial of what is actually happening, or a way of attempting to hide from others the reality of her predicament. I know when I was in that marriage I used to go on and on with strangers about how good he was to me and how he never ever hurt me. Even when the question of whether or not he did never came up.

    It's a means of pacifying the abuser.

    If you suspect someone is being abused, it is likely you can find someone you both know that has been abused. Domestic abuse is veyr common and it isn't always the woman being abused. When I was being abused, any marks I got, i took huge efforts to cover. Now if I get bruises from whatever cause, I don't generally go out of my way to hide them. Because I got them by some means other than abuse. When I used to help Neverfly work on cars my arms were always scratched and bruised. I think he worried about it more htan I did. I saw the marks as bragging rights, "Look at me muthaf@ckas! This little lady works on cars! " Yeah I am usually pretty proud of my war scars lol.

    But when one is embarrassed of how they got the mark, one tends to go overboard in trying to hide it. They get very nervous when trying to explain how they got it, usually because they are trying to think of a believable lie. Drawing attention to abuse often makes things worse for hte abused. Say you go and confront her abuser and he smooth talks you into believing you got the wrong end of the stick and even laughs about it with you. When you turn your back he then accuses the wife of having an affair with you and talking about him behind his back, beating the hell out of her.

    So never ever approach the abuser. If you suspect abuse, sometimes you can get the abused to open up and divulge info by engaging them on the topic regarding someone else. This won't always work. But it can. More often than not though, you simply have to let them know that you are available if they want to talk and that if they need anything you are there for them. Of course don't give this impression if you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth is. Helping someone get out of an abusive situation can put your own life in danger.

    But a woman or anyone who is being abused often cannot be helped until they reach a breaking point in their own mind. They have to somehow realize that their life is worth fighting for. They have to be made aware of the resources available to them. And never assume that there actually are resources. My mom called the police on her second husband when he had beat her so bad and kicked her in the shins so hard that he broke her leg and the police didn't even call her a paramedic. They simply stated that they didn't deal with domestic disputes and left. Luckily at that point, male neighbors realized that he would likely kill my mom for having called the police and three huge men came over dragged him outside and beat him to a bloody pulp.

    At that point he was so afraid of the neighbors that he checked himself into a halfway house for alcoholics and never came back. But it usually doesn't work out that easy.

    And shelters for battered women aren't always a good solution. The one I stayed in was as emotionally abusive as my husband at the time was and so i went back to him but with a plan of escape and a plan to kill him if necessary. In my case, i was pushed to the edge of sanity before I was able to get away. Even today I deal with him harshly to remind him that the timid little girl he was with so many years ago will not fall for his bullshit anymore. More often than not he hangs up in tears after talking to me. He calls and apologizes for being an ass and all i can coldly say to him is ...um. ok... so why are you telling me. I don't care.


    My mind is starting to bounce around but I will come back to this later and elaborate more if needs be or in case there is any lurkers out there wondering what to do.... maybe I'll just start another thread. Maybe adelady can help me with it since she has also been in the same situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    They may have suspected an abuse problem but they had to weigh a lot of factors, one possibly destroying any relationship they may have with you. The most common mistake people make, not just for abusive marriages, is that they are alone. Plenty of people out there that have been through it.
    I had no relationship with these people. Mostly they disgusted me. We were only in each other's presence because we worked in the same place. You may not have gotten to know me well but I don't generally make friends of people. The concept of fwiendship confuses and infuriates me.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    The concept of fwiendship confuses and infuriates me.
    Why?

    Do you find it hard to make friends?

    I find instead of making friends I make acquaintances with people that way I don't get to close to others but still know them to be able to say helo and be friendly towards them.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    What I really wanted to know from you guys is if there is an agency I could advise the kids to call if they really want to find out about this Belgian woman. I think the next time one contacts me I'll advise them to get a private investigator as was suggested.
    That should be left up to the family to decide, not you.

    If the children suspect something is wrong with the woman then they, not you, should tell the police their suspicions. And so far that's all you have been able to tell us is only what your suspicious of not if old Bert is having a nice intimate relationship with a nice woman. Why do you always , or many people do, think bad things about someone before good things? I never understood that myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    The concept of fwiendship confuses and infuriates me.
    Why?

    Do you find it hard to make friends?

    I find instead of making friends I make acquaintances with people that way I don't get to close to others but still know them to be able to say helo and be friendly towards them.
    I can make friends just fine if I want to be as fake as I perceive other people to be, but I have this terrible habit of telling people the truth and not withholding my opinions, especially if someone naively asks me for it. I refuse to pretend to be something I am not just to cater to the petty feelings of another human being that I generally don't like anyway. Why would I want to act in a way that would encourage them to hang around me?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    What I really wanted to know from you guys is if there is an agency I could advise the kids to call if they really want to find out about this Belgian woman. I think the next time one contacts me I'll advise them to get a private investigator as was suggested.
    That should be left up to the family to decide, not you.
    Dude, what are you missing here. He IS leaving it up to the family to decide. If someone asks you where a good movie theater is and you give directions to one, does that mean you decided what movie they see or when they see it or if they see it? No, you are merely giving information that was requested of you. All zinjan has suggested is that they stop bothering him and get a professional to snoop on their dad if they insist on it being needed. He is trying to remove himself from the situation as far as I can tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If the children suspect something is wrong with the woman then they, not you, should tell the police their suspicions. And so far that's all you have been able to tell us is only what your suspicious of not if old Bert is having a nice intimate relationship with a nice woman. Why do you always , or many people do, think bad things about someone before good things? I never understood that myself.
    Again, he has never said, not even once , that he intended to call any agency himself. He has only stated what he would say to the kids the next time one of them comes over talking about it and probably asking him a million questions about it. And he hasn't expressed that he is suspicious. He has stated that the kids are feeling it is suspicious and hounding him as a result. not once has he seemed to express concern for anything other than getting the kids to leave him alone about it.
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    Update: since my last post I had two requests from Bert's family members asking if they could stay at my house just to observe their dad's place. I said no, I wanted to stay friends with Bert. Anyway I heard she went back to Europe yesterday and for the first time since all the hubbub he went out of his way to contact me via e-mail stating that he was home at last....I have no idea what that means and I'm not even going to ask. Case closed......hmmmm : at least I think it was him
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    What I'm wondering is if there is a legitimate reason for the kids to call the police?
    You should keep your nose out of other peoples lives, especially when you know that your neighbor is doing ok for you see him every now and then and don't hear anything that is going wrong from him. Or are you just a busy body trying to create problems when there's nothing there?
    Actually it's the other way around. Since this woman has showed up I get grilled every day by at least one of the kids. Most of the time they want to know if I've seen their Dad or if I've noticed anything at all. I don't know what they expect me to say, I'm hardly home during the day as it is. Most of Bert's kids live within a kilometre of his place and one lives 6 doors down. I'm just conveniently situated, and they take advantage of it.

    I
    It sounds like they're worried mostly about the money. They should worry about him instead. If he loses his fortune, but still has a pension or keeps enough to live on, then they should make sure he knows they'll still want him around.

    If he thinks they're staking on his cash instead of genuinely concerned about him and his feelings getting hurt, he might stop trusting them. And then who will he trust? Who's left other than the Belgian lady?

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Perhaps these women who you say don't know shit about abuse were only mentioning it in the hope that you would do something to help yourself.
    The only people that can really help are the professionals who have experience in assessing just how dangerous the situation is and how much more dangerous it is likely to become if the abuser discovered plans for the wife and any children to leave.

    "Helping yourself" in an abusive household is simply a matter of getting by. Not making too much of a fuss when you're scared out of your wits or covering up the bruises. Nowadays there are at least online resources - not much help when the control freak of the household also locks access to the internet and obsessively checks logs regardless - but it is possible, eventually, to find an agency that can help. From what I've seen on some of those sites it's closely akin to a police raid or a military operation. Everything secret until the last possible moment and the whole thing is called off if the other party is in the vicinity.

    Just telling people that they're living their lives wrong and not looking after themselves properly is no good and may do some harm. A woman in this position will fear that word will spread, it may get back to the abuser and that will that day's excuse for another row, another fist flailing in her general direction. When you live in fear, you're afraid of everything and anything that might make it worse.

    If you really, truly want to help someone in such a position, get hold of information leaflets or contact details for agencies that know what they're doing. Don't dump them in her workspace. Stick them up in the cubicles in the ladies loo. Hand one out to everyone 'because you probably know someone with this problem'. Put a stock of them on a noticeboard. Whatever you do, don't single her out unless she's already public with it.
    Seeing it from the outside a few times, I'd say the best way to help someone in that situation is to make sure they know you'll be tactful. Sometimes it's better to accuse the abuser of something far more minor than what they're really doing. If he's beating her, say he's being overly critical, or yelling. Leave the actual violence out of it.

    If she's able to talk about it with friends, and tell them he's doing those minor things, they'll react to the minor things and that might turn out to be enough. She's still got her hostage accusations ("Don't try to kill me buddy, or I'll tell them what you're really doing.")

    He fears her lack of silence just as much as she fears his murderous rage. He'd rather kill her than risk going to prison for the crimes he has already committed. But if he has an out there's a chance he might take it. Let him admit to raising his voice too often, or something like that that's more of a "personal failing" and less of a "felony". Then people understand why she's leaving him, but not in a way where it's got to be a police affair.

    Then just make sure he knows that he's opening the door to the felonies if he tries to harass her over leaving him. Killing her won't get her back into his life, and bothering her will mean having to kill her. His best option is to just let her go.

    It's a lot like nuclear politics. Neither side really wants to launch their nukes. Often times people don't realize that merely threatening to launch them can get the job done.
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    His best option is to just let her go.
    That's always the best option. So why don't they do it? Because they're into control, possessiveness and power. Power above all else.

    These are not people who're so overwhelmed by love or some other such feeling that they don't know how to behave. Do they behave that way when other people are around, when a police officer is in view, when someone they respect is nearby? No chance.

    Killing her won't get her back into his life, and bothering her will mean having to kill her.
    Do you really not understand that that is exactly what many of these people do?

    In the USA it's 1000 women a year. Worldwide, violence kills and injures more women aged 15 to 44 than war, traffic accidents, cancer and malaria combined. Violence against Women - Facts and Figures | Say NO - UNiTE

    It's a lot like nuclear politics. Neither side really wants to launch their nukes. Often times people don't realize that merely threatening to launch them can get the job done.
    You can't ever be sure that someone isn't poised to take advantage of any excuse, no matter how feeble, to "launch their nukes". Don't you know anyone in your neighbourhood or among your workmates or friends at the pub who knows of someone being killed by a violent partner, anyone at all?

    I sincerely hope you have never given this advice to anyone in real life. I'm telling you now, as one who lived in fear of her life for too long, don't do it now that you know better. That kind of provocation can, quite literally, get someone killed.

    Then just make sure he knows that he's opening the door to the felonies if he tries to harass her over leaving him.
    You think he doesn't know that? A man who risks arrest and felony conviction a few times a week will change his attitude or his behaviour just because he takes one more risk? Doesn't happen. Just look at the depressing statistics on apprehended violence orders and how many women who are assaulted or murdered have already taken such action to ensure that the particular man knows what kind of trouble he's bringing down on himself by his behaviour.

    If you see someone who needs this kind of help, find a professional or an organisation that can tell you and/or the person concerned the best course of action for either or both of you. Whatever you do, never do anything that might be construed as provocation or excuse for violence against the person you hope to protect or help.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    His best option is to just let her go.


    That's always the best option. So why don't they do it? Because they're into control, possessiveness and power. Power above all else.

    These are not people who're so overwhelmed by love or some other such feeling that they don't know how to behave. Do they behave that way when other people are around, when a police officer is in view, when someone they respect is nearby? No chance.

    That's the point. She can let them know he's a jerk without letting them know he's violent. Then she's keeping up "her end" of the threat.

    The thing about hostage takers - they can only kill the hostage once. He won't kill her for making people think he's a jerk. He's got to save that card for the bigger problem.




    Killing her won't get her back into his life, and bothering her will mean having to kill her.
    Do you really not understand that that is exactly what many of these people do?

    In the USA it's 1000 women a year. Worldwide, violence kills and injures more women aged 15 to 44 than war, traffic accidents, cancer and malaria combined. Violence against Women - Facts and Figures | Say NO - UNiTE
    He kills her to maintain control. I know.

    But there's more to control. It's about coming out ahead. It's about keeping score. If he starts stalking her and she retaliates first by revealing his past crimes, he didn't come out ahead. Even if he then kills her, she still got in a punch and he can't have that. He'll back off rather than be not in control.

    It's like those gun crazies who shoot up malls. They've got all the power while they're holding a gun, but if someone else draws a gun they soon commit suicide rather than go gun to gun with an equal opponent. That way they die while still "in control". If he's facing an equal and opposite threat, he's not winning the game anymore and he'll either escalate or lose interest.

    Remember he was in control for a long time. That's when he was "ahead". He won't risk falling "behind" to continue the game. He'll only continue it if he thinks he can stay ahead.

    The reason he kills her when loss of control is imminent is because that ends the game (making him permanently the "winner"). If the game could end with him still ahead by some other means, he might choose that instead.




    It's a lot like nuclear politics. Neither side really wants to launch their nukes. Often times people don't realize that merely threatening to launch them can get the job done.
    You can't ever be sure that someone isn't poised to take advantage of any excuse, no matter how feeble, to "launch their nukes". Don't you know anyone in your neighbourhood or among your workmates or friends at the pub who knows of someone being killed by a violent partner, anyone at all?

    I sincerely hope you have never given this advice to anyone in real life. I'm telling you now, as one who lived in fear of her life for too long, don't do it now that you know better. That kind of provocation can, quite literally, get someone killed.
    Let me clarify the analogy.

    His threat: "I will kill you"
    Her threat: "I will tell everyone what you've done"

    If he thinks she's going to tell everyone, then he'll try and preempt. (Classic nuclear strategy)
    If she does tell everyone, he'll retaliate. (Classic nuclear political response).

    If she offers a condition where she won't tell everyone, but threatens to tell everyone if that condition is not met, then he must either pre-empt, or concede. The trick is making sure he knows her threat cannot be averted (ie. a friend knows the whole story but will agree not to tell it - but would tell it if she disappeared.)

    The reason MADD works is because there is no way to "win" a nuclear war.



    Then just make sure he knows that he's opening the door to the felonies if he tries to harass her over leaving him.
    You think he doesn't know that? A man who risks arrest and felony conviction a few times a week will change his attitude or his behaviour just because he takes one more risk? Doesn't happen. Just look at the depressing statistics on apprehended violence orders and how many women who are assaulted or murdered have already taken such action to ensure that the particular man knows what kind of trouble he's bringing down on himself by his behaviour.
    It's because he's keeping score. He won't risk falling behind. The actual consequences themselves don't matter to him, only what it means in terms of points in his little game.

    Life in prison is a small price to pay to keep ahead ..... but life in prison has a points value to it also. So it could mean he's lost points.


    If you see someone who needs this kind of help, find a professional or an organisation that can tell you and/or the person concerned the best course of action for either or both of you. Whatever you do, never do anything that might be construed as provocation or excuse for violence against the person you hope to protect or help.
    If I provoke him, I'll provoke him against me. Maybe I'll mock him. Maybe I'll laugh at him. Maybe I'll look down my nose at him.

    His problem is a general problem. It's not only directed at her. She's just the easiest prey. The man has insecurity issues, and it's not hard to touch a nerve.

    What I do with people like that is I show them that I know where their buttons are, and I know how to push them. And I know how to make a fool of them if they respond. The only problem is that as soon as he's left her, he'll just go do the same thing to someone else. In a perfect world, we'd just kill people like him.

    Well... in a perfect world people like him would never come into existence to begin with, but in a nearly perfect world, they'd go back out of existence via a bullet to the head.
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    By the way yes. I dated a girl who had attended the funeral of a friend who was killed by her boyfriend. So.... I guess two or three steps away from it, but at least it's close.

    Also had a close friend who was a girl who's father had been abusive in the past, and still made intimidating visits to her and her mother from time to time. I've seen the fear first hand in her eyes when she told me about it.

    I still stand by my conclusions.
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    I still stand by my conclusions.
    That's OK so long as you keep them to yourself.

    Your consistency in thinking and attitudes is not worth more than the risk of serious harm to a person in danger. Think what you like, but button your lip until you have reliable advice about the best path to follow.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Oh. What was I thinking? Of course you are right. It's better to suffer your whole life as a prisoner than take any risk of an early death. One day you wake up in the morning, realize you're 75 and you never got around to escaping. You could still escape, but why? To live out your last 5-10 years in freedom? Heck. Might as well just wait for the time to run out.

    It's a suicide just the same. It's just slower and a whole lot more painful. Like dying of a very long case of cancer.


    What I know from having a violent father when I was young is that he stopped hitting me when I stopped crying. Early on I realized he wasn't hitting me to teach me anything, or to meet a quota for injury. He was just trying to get me to cry for him. Once I stopped, he had to find another way to get his fix. He (apparently) found another victim somewhere else in his life. Predators are all the same that way. They go after the easiest prey. If you're not the easiest, they'll probably leave you alone and go after whoever has out-easy-ed you.

    If your goal is to make them stop being a predator.....well..... good luck on that. They won't change. I don't think they even can change. It's a compulsion, like drug addiction.



    Abusers don't kill out of a desire to end a life. They do it to see the look of terror in their victim's eyes just before they kill them. Then they follow through and do kill them in order to fix that moment in time forever. It's a special kind of vanity. The expression of fear is like praise. It gives them the adulation they crave. That is an exploitable weakness if you can accept it and make use of it.
    Last edited by kojax; February 18th, 2013 at 12:10 AM.
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    If your goal is to make them stop being a predator.....well..... good luck on that. They won't change. I don't think they even can change. It's a compulsion, like drug addiction.
    Drug addiction is a useful analogy - but from the other side. The objective of medical and social workers helping drug addicts is basically to keep them alive and reasonably healthy until they can kick the habit.

    It's not really conceptually the same, but the objective of a domestic violence survivor who's not yet escaped the abuser is to stay alive long enough to get away safely and to stay safe thereafter. And that's what the objective of any helper should be also. Both should take an abuser seriously if they threaten to kill the victim should she try to get away, or succeed in getting away - these are not empty threats. Look at how many women are attacked and even killed outside courts where they have no option but to attend during divorce and associated proceedings.

    The priorities are 1. stay alive, 2. stay as healthy as possible, 3. get out when you can do so safely. All of this is complicated more when there are children involved. Quite often the mother takes the brunt of the abuse in order to protect the children and is reluctant to leave unless it's guaranteed that the children can be shielded from contact with the abuser after they leave. It can be a lot easier if the family lives in a region where the relevant laws work so that the abuser is taken out of the house for 24-48 hours when the police are called to incidents. In these all-too-rare places, people can have a plan ready to go into action when the opportunity presents itself.

    Abusers don't kill out of a desire to end a life.
    Don't be so sure. Abusers come in many shapes and forms. One woman I know of was asleep in bed when her husband came home, strangled her then walked back to the pub and told his mates that he'd done it. She'd made the big mistake of telling him that she was leaving. He's also had his parole denied a couple of times on the basis of his daughter's reports that's he's threatened to kill his brother-in-law - a lawyer who'd given the dead woman some advice about divorce. Those threats are taken seriously.

    I can't hope to convince you. Only to recommend that you restrain yourself if ever you're in the position to advise someone. It is not better to die bravely in a futile contest with a determined violent person.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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