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Thread: Cruel and Unusual Punishment

  1. #1 Cruel and Unusual Punishment 
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
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    Can a judge really do this? As an atheist it would be a cruel punishment to me.

    Oklahoma Judge Sentences Teen to Church for 10 Years

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...-for-10-years/


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  3. #2  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    Blatant example of a violation of separation of church and state. The judge should know better, and it would take 15 seconds for the Supreme Court to strike it down.


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    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  4. #3  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Blatant example of a violation of separation of church and state. The judge should know better, and it would take 15 seconds for the Supreme Court to strike it down.
    Yes that's true, but if you were given that choice or going to prison, what would you choose?
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  5. #4  
    Ascended Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I guess at least you could fake it in Church, just pretend to be a happy little drone, wouldn't much fancy the prison option though.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    I guess at least you could fake it in Church, just pretend to be a happy little drone, wouldn't much fancy the prison option though.
    No matter how much you might dislike the church option, it would be your choice and I'm not sure there's much you could do about it.
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  7. #6  
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    mansalughter
    If you've never been to Oklahoma.
    Oklahoma prided itself on being the buckle of the bible belt
    so, cruel?, by oklahoma standards, naw
    (my 1st university was OU---go sooners)
    ...
    when i was in the army, i had a friend who was sentenced to the army for manslaughter--the judge offered him 5 years in the army or 5 years in prison, and monte chose the army
    he was 1/2 white and had grown up on the reservation being treated as a white boy(outsider) and in town being treated as a "worthless" indian------kinda gave him an attitude-----the army was the first "real job" he ever had-----his earlier concept, if he needed a rifle, work long enough to buy one, then long enough for the ammunition----so, when the supreem court outlawed that choice, monte was set free, and promptly reinlisted for the $10K re-up bonus, I think he was gonna stay for the 20 or 30 years to retirement.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    mansalughter
    If you've never been to Oklahoma.
    Oklahoma prided itself on being the buckle of the bible belt
    so, cruel?, by oklahoma standards, naw
    (my 1st university was OU---go sooners)
    ...
    when i was in the army, i had a friend who was sentenced to the army for manslaughter--the judge offered him 5 years in the army or 5 years in prison, and monte chose the army
    he was 1/2 white and had grown up on the reservation being treated as a white boy(outsider) and in town being treated as a "worthless" indian------kinda gave him an attitude-----the army was the first "real job" he ever had-----his earlier concept, if he needed a rifle, work long enough to buy one, then long enough for the ammunition----so, when the supreem court outlawed that choice, monte was set free, and promptly reinlisted for the $10K re-up bonus, I think he was gonna stay for the 20 or 30 years to retirement.
    I don't think the army allows undesirables anymore, but I do think I would like that option better than church.
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  9. #8  
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    undesirable?
    hell man, I kinda liked Monte

    "church of your choice"
    ?????????
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  10. #9  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    undesirable?
    hell man, I kinda liked Monte

    "church of your choice"
    ?????????
    Well if you are being covicted and sentanced, that's usually looked at as unsutible for military service. Many years ago I ended up on a bowling team with a guy that was driving drunk, crashed his car and killed his best friend. He was a good guy that made a very bad choice and now he has to live with it for the rest of his life.
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  11. #10  
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    Church is certainly unusual. It would make more sense to work at an old people's hope or something that would actually be useful.
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
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  12. #11  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    What's the difference between a judge sentencing this kid to church for manslaughter and a catholic priest issued a new parish from the Pope for child molestation?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    What's the difference between a judge sentencing this kid to church for manslaughter and a catholic priest issued a new parish from the Pope for child molestation?
    this was a teenager who crashed a car
    hell man, both my brothers had crashed cars when we were teens , and so did both my sons
    both of my brothers crashes sent passengers to the hospital--------they were just luckier
    and at that age, I used to drive too damned fast myself---but both my crashes were on my motorcycle

    Name a single good thing that would come from sentencing that kid to jail.

    difference?
    c'mon man
    a demand for celibacy has simply got to attract odd demented fellows, most of whom are benign
    and a very few ain't
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  14. #13  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    Sometimes good kids do really bad things. There's tons of examples of judges going easy on a teen...so they don't totally screw the kids life up. There are plenty of choices that fall within the accepted sentencing guidelines that this judge could have chosen. Probation or a suspended sentence, or community service, or counseling are all at his disposal. Sentencing someone to church totally flies in the face of one of America's central core values...the freedom of religion...or more importantly the freedom NOT to be someone else's religion. IT'S THE F'ING REASON WE STARTED THIS COUNTRY! We were tired of people telling us what religion we had to be.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  15. #14  
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    Mac
    the judge gave the kid choices, one of which was "a church of his choosing", and a demand to graduate high school.

    In illinois, compulsory education ends at age 16, after which, it is voluntary.

    I did have a helper once, who probably would have answered
    "Hell judge, I'll take the 5 years"
    (poor guy was a teenager when his father, who was a prison guard, was killed in a riot---------it seemed that my helper always wanted to be in prison---i think his mind got warped)
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  16. #15  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    What's the difference between a judge sentencing this kid to church for manslaughter and a catholic priest issued a new parish from the Pope for child molestation?
    this was a teenager who crashed a car
    hell man, both my brothers had crashed cars when we were teens , and so did both my sons
    both of my brothers crashes sent passengers to the hospital--------they were just luckier
    and at that age, I used to drive too damned fast myself---but both my crashes were on my motorcycle

    Name a single good thing that would come from sentencing that kid to jail.

    difference?
    c'mon man
    a demand for celibacy has simply got to attract odd demented fellows, most of whom are benign
    and a very few ain't
    I'm just doing the math. He won't be a teenager forever. What's to stop him from repeating the offence and killing somebody else? Tough getting into a car in prison. Has it come to the point where 2-3 years in the jug equals ten years in church? Perhaps the ratio should be closer to 1 to 1, church isn't exactly rehab. 10 years is much too long.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Mac
    the judge gave the kid choices, one of which was "a church of his choosing", and a demand to graduate high school.
    As an atheist I don't have a church of my choosing. Also, what Mac says about judges giving breaks to younger offenders is right on, but I have to say I have very little sympathy for people of any age that cause the death of others because of making bad choices such as drunk driving.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post

    As an atheist I don't have a church of my choosing. Also, what Mac says about judges giving breaks to younger offenders is right on, but I have to say I have very little sympathy for people of any age that cause the death of others because of making bad choices such as drunk driving.
    True, but he was well below the legal limit- hardly drunk. The issue made was that he had had anything to drink at all at his age, not that he had been drunk.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post

    As an atheist I don't have a church of my choosing. Also, what Mac says about judges giving breaks to younger offenders is right on, but I have to say I have very little sympathy for people of any age that cause the death of others because of making bad choices such as drunk driving.
    True, but he was well below the legal limit- hardly drunk. The issue made was that he had had anything to drink at all at his age, not that he had been drunk.
    They charged him with manslaughter, now I'm wondering what the reason for that was? If he wasn't legally drunk, he must have been reckless in some way to warrant a manslaughter conviction?
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  20. #19  
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    I don't think some in here are quite seeing the picture
    Church = community = village
    remember: "It takes a village to raise a child"
    this young man will become part of a sharing community during his entry into adulthood.
    Much like some alchoholics find community in AA
    He may even become a better person for being part of a congregation who looks after and cares for each other.
    The judge was rolling the dice here
    hoping that a community could guide this young man on a better path
    .........
    the other legal option really sucked
    our prisons are notoriously bad at rehabilitating people
    ............
    what would you have done that could be better?
    better for the young man?
    better for the community?
    better for the taxpayer and polity?
    kids make mistakes, some tragic, but we should temper all reaction with compassion
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  21. #20  
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    It's possible. While I think sentencing him to church when other options were available is absurd, I'd rather he get sentenced to church than years in prison that will only make a bad situation much worse. It would do more harm than good.

    Let the kid love on Jesus for a while and try to do better later in life. If he wants jail time, he'll have plenty of opportunity later to earn some. For now, give the kid a chance to grow up.
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  22. #21  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    I don't think some in here are quite seeing the picture
    Church = community = village
    remember: "It takes a village to raise a child"
    this young man will become part of a sharing community during his entry into adulthood.
    Much like some alchoholics find community in AA
    He may even become a better person for being part of a congregation who looks after and cares for each other.
    The judge was rolling the dice here
    hoping that a community could guide this young man on a better path
    .........
    the other legal option really sucked
    our prisons are notoriously bad at rehabilitating people
    ............
    what would you have done that could be better?
    better for the young man?
    better for the community?
    better for the taxpayer and polity?
    kids make mistakes, some tragic, but we should temper all reaction with compassion
    Well each case is different and all judges are not created equal and some kids have been in a gang for awhile and are not going to change their ways and quit hurting people. Maybe the judge made a good call and maybe he didn't, I really don't know enough about the case to say for sure one way or the other.
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  23. #22  
    Forum Ph.D. Dave Wilson's Avatar
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    Jail or church, it is a no brainer. Jesus saves.
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  24. #23  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Blatant example of a violation of separation of church and state. The judge should know better, and it would take 15 seconds for the Supreme Court to strike it down.
    Yes that's true, but if you were given that choice or going to prison, what would you choose?
    Neither, I'd try my best to stay out of trouble so that I wouldn't be faced with such dilemmas.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Jail or church, it is a no brainer. Jesus saves.
    Yeah! Even if he doesn't save you, it's still a no brainer.
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  26. #25  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Jesus saves.
    ...and takes half damage!

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    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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