Thread: Self defense

Hello guys

I would just like to ask if it would be considered a crime if you accidentally or intentionally killed a person who tried to rob you? Of course you were defending yourself as he was trying to mug you, but does that give you the license to kill as your life has been threatened by the robber?

Just curious. Thanks

Not justifiable if you could get away from the danger. Accidental or intentional killing? If you intended to injure them -and you could have got away or hidden or whatever - and they die, that's murder anyway.

The big difference is if you fear for your own or another's life. If you do, you're in the clear. Of course, if you're really good at one or another martial art, you might be able to talk him down. I watched a friend of mine do this in a city street once. Talking to a bloke who had a woman in a kind of headlock - and he let her go eventually even though my friend didn't so much as touch either of them.

Very impressive.

Originally Posted by adelady

Not justifiable if you could get away from the danger. Accidental or intentional killing? If you intended to injure them -and you could have got away or hidden or whatever - and they die, that's murder anyway.

The big difference is if you fear for your own or another's life. If you do, you're in the clear. Of course, if you're really good at one or another martial art, you might be able to talk him down. I watched a friend of mine do this in a city street once. Talking to a bloke who had a woman in a kind of headlock - and he let her go eventually even though my friend didn't so much as touch either of them.

Very impressive.

Oh! It seems very clear to me now. I asked this question because I get so scared at times I walk alone knowing that someone might hold me up and take all my belongings. Might I accidentally kill or seriously injure the robber while defending, then I wouldn't go to jail for doing it.

Thank you!

Beware of the fact that laws (and the way they are enforced) may differ from one country to another.

In my country (France), killing a person, even if this person was committing an act of agression, is an homicide (volontary or unvolontary) and you have to face a trial for it. You have to prove self-defense and judges are generally reluctant to admit it. The rule is that the defense act must be *proportional* to the threat. For instance, you cannot pretend self-defense when using a weapon against somebody who dont carry a weapon, even if that person was trespassing your property. If you practice a martial art, make use of it and kill a thief which was not using a weapon, then the self-defense may be denied.
Even if the "agressor" is not killed but only wounded you may face a trial and have to prove self-defense the same way.
Of course, this is for my country, and it may be very different in your.

So, if you intent to shoot at somebody who is stealing your bicycle, have a call to your lawyer first.

The crucial phrase is "proportional to the threat" rule of thumb would be that the force used was the least amount necessary to negate the threat to your life.

You would kill another human being over the things you carry in your pockets?

wow
seems a tad rad to me dad

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Originally Posted by adelady

Not justifiable if you could get away from the danger. Accidental or intentional killing? If you intended to injure them -and you could have got away or hidden or whatever - and they die, that's murder anyway.

The big difference is if you fear for your own or another's life. If you do, you're in the clear. Of course, if you're really good at one or another martial art, you might be able to talk him down. I watched a friend of mine do this in a city street once. Talking to a bloke who had a woman in a kind of headlock - and he let her go eventually even though my friend didn't so much as touch either of them.

Very impressive.

Oh! It seems very clear to me now. I asked this question because I get so scared at times I walk alone knowing that someone might hold me up and take all my belongings. Might I accidentally kill or seriously injure the robber while defending, then I wouldn't go to jail for doing it.

Thank you!

OK..nobody said you wouldn't go to jail. It REALLY depends on where you live, and most importantly, the exact circumstances of the event. As someone who has been mugged 3 times, it's far better just to give them what they want...and most law enforcement will tell you the same thing. Life isn't like the movies.

it's far better just to give them what they want

That brings back memories. We had office training for handling the larger crowds we used to get at certain times of the year and one of the issues was how much cash was around. Got to the point where the trainer advised what to do in the case of a robbery, being stay calm, hand it over, be observant about the people so you can identify them for the police.

Oh no, no, no! exclaimed a cashier. Nobody's getting my money away from me! My money? It was the government's money, and it was a government official telling you what to do with the government's money. This bloke was apparently willing to die for the sake of one day's takings in one of dozens of offices across the country. Robbery and theft are bad things, but not so bad that you die for them. He behaved as though he was talking about throwing himself on a grenade to protect .... exactly who or what is an interesting question.

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Hello guys

I would just like to ask if it would be considered a crime if you accidentally or intentionally killed a person who tried to rob you? Of course you were defending yourself as he was trying to mug you, but does that give you the license to kill as your life has been threatened by the robber?

Just curious. Thanks

It all comes down to using your judgement in each event as they actually happen to you. If I had to pass through a bad neighborhood on a regular basses I'd order some military grade pepper spray to carry with me and practice being very aware and alert of my surroundings at all times. Be as prepared as you can, because anybody looking to rob you will size you up first, and your confident body language may well forestall any problems for you.

Also, be aware that if you use deadly force and kill an attacker, you will most likely be in for some long drawn out legal troubles whether or not you get convicted of anything, and paying for a good lawyer is going to hurt anyway you look at it.

Originally Posted by sculptor

You would kill another human being over the things you carry in your pockets?

wow
seems a tad rad to me dad

I would. Absolutely. Even if my pockets were empty.

Here is why:
A person that thinks so little of my life as to be willing to kill me over that things in my pockets will see others this way as well. To rid the world of him would be doing a favor to all little old ladies walking around with things in their pockets. Eliminate the threat.
Who knows what other crimes he fancies, from rape to burglary.

It is not the value of the things in the pockets that is the true measure, but the place we hold in this society that we've created. When he places my life by the worth in my pockets, I place him to the same measure.

Inscribe it on his grave marker:

"Here lies a fool that did something stupid. Darwin Points-Plus 1"

How do you know that he doesn't just want the things in your pockets? Most people who commit robbery are not terribly keen on inflicting major violence. They just threaten it so people will give it up. It's best not to test their resolve.

As for little old ladies. There was an incident near my grandparents old house. A young lad rode up on a bike and stole an old ladies handbag and rode away - fast. Cars stopped and people rushed to help her when she fell to the ground. But she couldn't get up, even with help. She was laughing too hard. Turns out the handbag in question was an old one she used only for walking the dog - the only contents were a plastic bag full of doggie doo.

Originally Posted by adelady

How do you know that he doesn't just want the things in your pockets?

Because if he's claiming to value my life by that standard, I will take that claim seriously regardless of the possibility that he'd prefer not to kill me. If he claims to have that intention, then as far as I'm concerned, that is his intention. No need to ask him to 'prove it.'

Originally Posted by adelady

Most people who commit robbery are not terribly keen on inflicting major violence. They just threaten it so people will give it up. It's best not to test their resolve.

Not my chance to take.
Threaten me or mine frivolously or seriously- the result will be the same. Let's be realistic; it's simpler to eliminate the threat than to try to psychoanalyze him and possibly end up dead for your trouble. I've read plenty of news stories involving rape and violent attacks by theives.

This is my opinion. It's not likely to be swayed- it's the way I am. I'm a bit more... primitive minded than some. He's a thief, simple as that and I have no true regard for his safety when he threatens mine. I'm an animal and not ashamed of it. Perhaps some believe another method is better- I do not particularly care. Come at me armed and threatening, for whatever reason, and you fall into a mold, cut from a cookie cutter.

Originally Posted by adelady

As for little old ladies. There was an incident near my grandparents old house. A young lad rode up on a bike and stole an old ladies handbag and rode away - fast. Cars stopped and people rushed to help her when she fell to the ground. But she couldn't get up, even with help. She was laughing too hard. Turns out the handbag in question was an old one she used only for walking the dog - the only contents were a plastic bag full of doggie doo.

Now that is funny.

Neverfly

I agree with your thinking on this one. You have to take a threat from a criminal seriously and take appropreate action. But I have to say that appropriate action may not be the same for all of us. As we all have different abilities depending on our age, physical condition and training.

Originally Posted by arKane

Neverfly

I agree with your thinking on this one. You have to take a threat from a criminal seriously and take appropreate action. But I have to say that appropriate action may not be the same for all of us. As we all have different abilities depending on our age, physical condition and training.

A note of interest: I never claimed I'd always kill a mugger. I only mean that I would be willing to. But he might escape.

I understand quite well that others believe differently and this one doesn't have a right or a wrong answer. As I said, I'm more primitive than some.

ETA: Some may be grateful if I wipe out a mugger that they or someone they love could not have been able to physically handle.

When I was working my way through school I was employed by a private framing contractor in northern Ontario. We had a lot of power tools and we used to lock them up in our site trailer before we went home at night. Needless to say we got robbed a couple of times within a week. After the second time my boss was real pissed, he'd tried everything from locks, screen mesh and even guard dog but the crook(s) still got in. He asked me if I had any good ideas. I told him to take small sheets of plywood, drive about 50 nails through them and set them below the window of the trailer at night with the pointed spikes up. Needless to say early one morning we came in and noticed the window broken along with a very large trail of blood leading from the trailer to where a car must have been waiting. No tools were missing but we phoned the police anyway, hoping that they might check a local hospital or two to see if the poor schmuck showed up. Anyway the police told us we could be charged if our crook survived and filed a complaint. We'd be guilty of using excessive force if it could be proven we deliberately set the trap. Still the cops had a good laugh. They said it's a construction trailer and any crook should have a reasonable expectation of encountering nails. The trailer was a bloody mess inside and we could see where the guy had tried to kick the plywood off his impaled foot or feet or other body parts. We were kind of worried for a few days that we might still get charged.

So I would say that in Canada at least, you can be charged for preventing a robbery by using nefarious means.

Footnote: No one suffering from severe blood loss reported to any hospital in the area at any time following the incident. Never got robbed again.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

When I was working my way through school I was employed by a private framing contractor in northern Ontario. We had a lot of power tools and we used to lock them up in our site trailer before we went home at night. Needless to say we got robbed a couple of times within a week. After the second time my boss was real pissed, he'd tried everything from locks, screen mesh and even guard dog but the crook(s) still got in. He asked me if I had any good ideas. I told him to take small sheets of plywood, drive about 50 nails through them and set them below the window of the trailer at night with the pointed spikes up. Needless to say early one morning we came in and noticed the window broken along with a very large trail of blood leading from the trailer to where a car must have been waiting. No tools were missing but we phoned the police anyway, hoping that they might check a local hospital or two to see if the poor schmuck showed up. Anyway the police told us we could be charged if our crook survived and filed a complaint. We'd be guilty of using excessive force if it could be proven we deliberately set the trap. Still the cops had a good laugh. They said it's a construction trailer and any crook should have a reasonable expectation of encountering nails. The trailer was a bloody mess inside and we could see where the guy had tried to kick the plywood off his impaled foot or feet or other body parts. We were kind of worried for a few days that we might still get charged.

So I would say that in Canada at least, you can be charged for preventing a robbery by using nefarious means.

Footnote: No one suffering from severe blood loss reported to any hospital in the area at any time following the incident. Never got robbed again.

That's one of the problems with being the criminal and committing a crime. You don't want to be found out by the police and if you are steeling tools you must be hard up for money and not very likely going to hire a lawyer to sue anybody for a maybe win. But next time you might try Jumping Cholla Cactus if it'll grow where your at. It's just about the nastiest cactus you'll find anywhere in the world. If you touch it, the thorns will bard into you and that piece of cactus will break off and hang on to you. You might be very tempted to grab it and pull it off. (Big mistake)

In any event one experience with that cactus will most likely be the last as far as that place goes.

Originally Posted by arKane

That's one of the problems with being the criminal and committing a crime. You don't want to be found out by the police and if you are steeling tools you must be hard up for money and not very likely going to hire a lawyer to sue anybody for a maybe win. But next time you might try Jumping Cholla Cactus if it'll grow where your at. It's just about the nastiest cactus you'll find anywhere in the world. If you touch it, the thorns will bard into you and that piece of cactus will break off and hang on to you. You might be very tempted to grab it and pull it off. (Big mistake)

In any event one experience with that cactus will most likely be the last as far as that place goes.

We should go into business, 'Grow your own burglar protection". I thought it might be a good idea at home to put boards with protruding spikes on the floor beneath windows as a theft deterrent but then I realized I'll grow older and forget I put them there. OUCH!

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by arKane

That's one of the problems with being the criminal and committing a crime. You don't want to be found out by the police and if you are steeling tools you must be hard up for money and not very likely going to hire a lawyer to sue anybody for a maybe win. But next time you might try Jumping Cholla Cactus if it'll grow where your at. It's just about the nastiest cactus you'll find anywhere in the world. If you touch it, the thorns will bard into you and that piece of cactus will break off and hang on to you. You might be very tempted to grab it and pull it off. (Big mistake)

In any event one experience with that cactus will most likely be the last as far as that place goes.

We should go into business, 'Grow your own burglar protection". I thought it might be a good idea at home to put boards with protruding spikes on the floor beneath windows as a theft deterrent but then I realized I'll grow older and forget I put them there. OUCH!

I would have posted a picture but am having a problem with my Photobucket account. To view the cactus in question check the link below. The top row of pictures shows that nasty cactus very well and growing below your windows would be very discouraging to any thief.

jumping cholla cactus attack - Bing Images

Originally Posted by sculptor

You would kill another human being over the things you carry in your pockets?

wow
seems a tad rad to me dad

Might accidentally kill just to clarify

Originally Posted by caKus

Beware of the fact that laws (and the way they are enforced) may differ from one country to another.

In my country (France), killing a person, even if this person was committing an act of agression, is an homicide (volontary or unvolontary) and you have to face a trial for it. You have to prove self-defense and judges are generally reluctant to admit it. The rule is that the defense act must be *proportional* to the threat. For instance, you cannot pretend self-defense when using a weapon against somebody who dont carry a weapon, even if that person was trespassing your property. If you practice a martial art, make use of it and kill a thief which was not using a weapon, then the self-defense may be denied.
Even if the "agressor" is not killed but only wounded you may face a trial and have to prove self-defense the same way.
Of course, this is for my country, and it may be very different in your.

So, if you intent to shoot at somebody who is stealing your bicycle, have a call to your lawyer first.

Haha, will take note. Thank you very much, though I wouldn't actually shoot somebody who's stealing my bicycle.

Originally Posted by adelady

it's far better just to give them what they want

That brings back memories. We had office training for handling the larger crowds we used to get at certain times of the year and one of the issues was how much cash was around. Got to the point where the trainer advised what to do in the case of a robbery, being stay calm, hand it over, be observant about the people so you can identify them for the police.

Oh no, no, no! exclaimed a cashier. Nobody's getting my money away from me! My money? It was the government's money, and it was a government official telling you what to do with the government's money. This bloke was apparently willing to die for the sake of one day's takings in one of dozens of offices across the country. Robbery and theft are bad things, but not so bad that you die for them. He behaved as though he was talking about throwing himself on a grenade to protect .... exactly who or what is an interesting question.

I think it'll really depend on the situation. I'd fight for my money if I can, but if it looks like they are really gonna kill, might I just give them money away..

Originally Posted by harrymennie

The crucial phrase is "proportional to the threat" rule of thumb would be that the force used was the least amount necessary to negate the threat to your life.

I would agree to that

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Hello guys

I would just like to ask if it would be considered a crime if you accidentally or intentionally killed a person who tried to rob you? Of course you were defending yourself as he was trying to mug you, but does that give you the license to kill as your life has been threatened by the robber?

Just curious. Thanks

It all comes down to using your judgement in each event as they actually happen to you. If I had to pass through a bad neighborhood on a regular basses I'd order some military grade pepper spray to carry with me and practice being very aware and alert of my surroundings at all times. Be as prepared as you can, because anybody looking to rob you will size you up first, and your confident body language may well forestall any problems for you.

Also, be aware that if you use deadly force and kill an attacker, you will most likely be in for some long drawn out legal troubles whether or not you get convicted of anything, and paying for a good lawyer is going to hurt anyway you look at it.

I think I'd have to agree with you. It'll be more trouble fixing papers, paying lawyers, and etc. I think it's best to just stun the attacker or something to lessen the matter of things.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by sculptor

You would kill another human being over the things you carry in your pockets?

wow
seems a tad rad to me dad

I would. Absolutely. Even if my pockets were empty.

Here is why:
A person that thinks so little of my life as to be willing to kill me over that things in my pockets will see others this way as well. To rid the world of him would be doing a favor to all little old ladies walking around with things in their pockets. Eliminate the threat.
Who knows what other crimes he fancies, from rape to burglary.

It is not the value of the things in the pockets that is the true measure, but the place we hold in this society that we've created. When he places my life by the worth in my pockets, I place him to the same measure.

Inscribe it on his grave marker:

"Here lies a fool that did something stupid. Darwin Points-Plus 1"

Well it's hard to eliminate all the threats out there but it's a start- might also serve as a lesson to other threats out there..

Originally Posted by arKane

Neverfly

I agree with your thinking on this one. You have to take a threat from a criminal seriously and take appropreate action. But I have to say that appropriate action may not be the same for all of us. As we all have different abilities depending on our age, physical condition and training.

What would be the most appropriate action for you if for example someone was trying to steal your phone or something?

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

When I was working my way through school I was employed by a private framing contractor in northern Ontario. We had a lot of power tools and we used to lock them up in our site trailer before we went home at night. Needless to say we got robbed a couple of times within a week. After the second time my boss was real pissed, he'd tried everything from locks, screen mesh and even guard dog but the crook(s) still got in. He asked me if I had any good ideas. I told him to take small sheets of plywood, drive about 50 nails through them and set them below the window of the trailer at night with the pointed spikes up. Needless to say early one morning we came in and noticed the window broken along with a very large trail of blood leading from the trailer to where a car must have been waiting. No tools were missing but we phoned the police anyway, hoping that they might check a local hospital or two to see if the poor schmuck showed up. Anyway the police told us we could be charged if our crook survived and filed a complaint. We'd be guilty of using excessive force if it could be proven we deliberately set the trap. Still the cops had a good laugh. They said it's a construction trailer and any crook should have a reasonable expectation of encountering nails. The trailer was a bloody mess inside and we could see where the guy had tried to kick the plywood off his impaled foot or feet or other body parts. We were kind of worried for a few days that we might still get charged.

So I would say that in Canada at least, you can be charged for preventing a robbery by using nefarious means.

Footnote: No one suffering from severe blood loss reported to any hospital in the area at any time following the incident. Never got robbed again.

Woah. So did the robber charge your for his injuries?

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

When I was working my way through school I was employed by a private framing contractor in northern Ontario. We had a lot of power tools and we used to lock them up in our site trailer before we went home at night. Needless to say we got robbed a couple of times within a week. After the second time my boss was real pissed, he'd tried everything from locks, screen mesh and even guard dog but the crook(s) still got in. He asked me if I had any good ideas. I told him to take small sheets of plywood, drive about 50 nails through them and set them below the window of the trailer at night with the pointed spikes up. Needless to say early one morning we came in and noticed the window broken along with a very large trail of blood leading from the trailer to where a car must have been waiting. No tools were missing but we phoned the police anyway, hoping that they might check a local hospital or two to see if the poor schmuck showed up. Anyway the police told us we could be charged if our crook survived and filed a complaint. We'd be guilty of using excessive force if it could be proven we deliberately set the trap. Still the cops had a good laugh. They said it's a construction trailer and any crook should have a reasonable expectation of encountering nails. The trailer was a bloody mess inside and we could see where the guy had tried to kick the plywood off his impaled foot or feet or other body parts. We were kind of worried for a few days that we might still get charged.

So I would say that in Canada at least, you can be charged for preventing a robbery by using nefarious means.

Footnote: No one suffering from severe blood loss reported to any hospital in the area at any time following the incident. Never got robbed again.

That's one of the problems with being the criminal and committing a crime. You don't want to be found out by the police and if you are steeling tools you must be hard up for money and not very likely going to hire a lawyer to sue anybody for a maybe win. But next time you might try Jumping Cholla Cactus if it'll grow where your at. It's just about the nastiest cactus you'll find anywhere in the world. If you touch it, the thorns will bard into you and that piece of cactus will break off and hang on to you. You might be very tempted to grab it and pull it off. (Big mistake)

In any event one experience with that cactus will most likely be the last as far as that place goes.

Now that's one nasty cactus, might also be a good prevention from robbers

So what if the robber is robbing you at gun point, and you have a gun, but they don't know you have it.


Say you're wearing a coat with sleeves longer than your wrists and holding the gun in one of your hands. So you could bring up your hand and gun, and shoot them dead before they were even aware you were attacking them, killing them before they can fire their weapon.

Should you

A) - Give up your money anyway - sparing their life and forgoing your cash?

or

B) - Shoot them right through the heart, keep your cash, and then call the police to report it?

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by arKane

That's one of the problems with being the criminal and committing a crime. You don't want to be found out by the police and if you are steeling tools you must be hard up for money and not very likely going to hire a lawyer to sue anybody for a maybe win. But next time you might try Jumping Cholla Cactus if it'll grow where your at. It's just about the nastiest cactus you'll find anywhere in the world. If you touch it, the thorns will bard into you and that piece of cactus will break off and hang on to you. You might be very tempted to grab it and pull it off. (Big mistake)

In any event one experience with that cactus will most likely be the last as far as that place goes.

We should go into business, 'Grow your own burglar protection". I thought it might be a good idea at home to put boards with protruding spikes on the floor beneath windows as a theft deterrent but then I realized I'll grow older and forget I put them there. OUCH!

I would have posted a picture but am having a problem with my Photobucket account. To view the cactus in question check the link below. The top row of pictures shows that nasty cactus very well and growing below your windows would be very discouraging to any thief.

jumping cholla cactus attack - Bing Images

Now that's one nasty cactus!

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Originally Posted by arKane

Neverfly

I agree with your thinking on this one. You have to take a threat from a criminal seriously and take appropreate action. But I have to say that appropriate action may not be the same for all of us. As we all have different abilities depending on our age, physical condition and training.

What would be the most appropriate action for you if for example someone was trying to steal your phone or something?

I would need to know more about the situation before I could answer that question. Does the thief have a weapon of some kind, is there more than one of them, is he bigger and stronger than me. In general I'm not going to risk a whole lot over a phone or a wallet. But if I think I might have the edge I might give fighting a try.

Originally Posted by kojax

So what if the robber is robbing you at gun point, and you have a gun, but they don't know you have it.


Say you're wearing a coat with sleeves longer than your wrists and holding the gun in one of your hands. So you could bring up your hand and gun, and shoot them dead before they were even aware you were attacking them, killing them before they can fire their weapon.

Should you

A) - Give up your money anyway - sparing their life and forgoing your cash?

or

B) - Shoot them right through the heart, keep your cash, and then call the police to report it?

B for sure. By using a gun or even a knife they give up any right they might have for my consideration not to kill them given the chance.

Originally Posted by kojax

So what if the robber is robbing you at gun point, and you have a gun, but they don't know you have it.


Say you're wearing a coat with sleeves longer than your wrists and holding the gun in one of your hands. So you could bring up your hand and gun, and shoot them dead before they were even aware you were attacking them, killing them before they can fire their weapon.

Should you

A) - Give up your money anyway - sparing their life and forgoing your cash?

or

B) - Shoot them right through the heart, keep your cash, and then call the police to report it?

Does it matter as much as allowing both options as permissible?
What any individual may choose and even, that whether they had been having a good day or a bad day would influence which action they might choose in that moment seems less relevant than whether or not they have the right to self defense.

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

jumping cholla cactus attack - Bing Images

Now that's one nasty cactus!

Yes it is, and there is lot's of it in Arizona. If you have any pets like a dog, you have to be very careful with that cactus. If a dog gets a piece stuck on him anywhere he will try to bite it, to get it off. A very very bad choice for the dog. If you get some stuck on you, grin and bare it, then very carefully remove it. If a criminal is casing your house and sees that cactus growing under your windows, he will most likely go looking for an easier target.

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

jumping cholla cactus attack - Bing Images

Now that's one nasty cactus!

Yes it is, and there is lot's of it in Arizona. If you have any pets like a dog, you have to be very careful with that cactus. If a dog gets a piece stuck on him anywhere he will try to bite it, to get it off. A very very bad choice for the dog. If you get some stuck on you, grin and bare it, then very carefully remove it. If a criminal is casing your house and sees that cactus growing under your windows, he will most likely go looking for an easier target.

I think the only problem with booby trapping your house is that you or somebody (or your pet) could become a victim. I don't think I'd want to get close enough to that cactus even to just give it a drop of water.

anyone who walks about holding a gun hidden by a long sleeved coat, just waiting for an opportunity to use it is a total freaking nutjob who will commit a premeditated crime.

(just my take)

self defense is indeed a state of mind
if you imagine various threat scenarios, and create a plan of action for each, then when the moment happens, and your adrenaline kicks in, you will do that which you have planned
awareness of ones surroundings is essential for any survival event

Originally Posted by sculptor

anyone who walks about holding a gun hidden by a long sleeved coat, just waiting for an opportunity to use it is a total freaking nutjob who will commit a premeditated crime.

(just my take)

LOL Yeah well, he provided a hypothetical in order to give the victim the upper hand.
Some people are licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Frankly, if a man spends 40 years studying Kung Fu and his hands are registered as deadly weapons, then he has no choice but to walk around with lethality hidden in a long sleeved coat.

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Originally Posted by arKane

Neverfly

I agree with your thinking on this one. You have to take a threat from a criminal seriously and take appropreate action. But I have to say that appropriate action may not be the same for all of us. As we all have different abilities depending on our age, physical condition and training.

What would be the most appropriate action for you if for example someone was trying to steal your phone or something?

I would need to know more about the situation before I could answer that question. Does the thief have a weapon of some kind, is there more than one of them, is he bigger and stronger than me. In general I'm not going to risk a whole lot over a phone or a wallet. But if I think I might have the edge I might give fighting a try.

Say for example, he is shorter than you then he threatens you to give your phone and wallet to him or he'll stab you using an ice pick- the ice pick is already up on your skin and one single blow would lead it to penetrate. Would you give your phone or find the right opportunity to fight him? Say you opt to fight him and get an advantage over him in combat, would you use the ice pick to stab him?

Originally Posted by kojax

So what if the robber is robbing you at gun point, and you have a gun, but they don't know you have it.


Say you're wearing a coat with sleeves longer than your wrists and holding the gun in one of your hands. So you could bring up your hand and gun, and shoot them dead before they were even aware you were attacking them, killing them before they can fire their weapon.

Should you

A) - Give up your money anyway - sparing their life and forgoing your cash?

or

B) - Shoot them right through the heart, keep your cash, and then call the police to report it?

I think I'll just go with B.

Originally Posted by sculptor

anyone who walks about holding a gun hidden by a long sleeved coat, just waiting for an opportunity to use it is a total freaking nutjob who will commit a premeditated crime.

(just my take)

self defense is indeed a state of mind
if you imagine various threat scenarios, and create a plan of action for each, then when the moment happens, and your adrenaline kicks in, you will do that which you have planned
awareness of ones surroundings is essential for any survival event

Agreed

prosecutor: "Mr. Kojax why were you walking through that neighbrhood holding a loaded pistol hidden under your coat sleeves?"

Mr, Kojax: " I like to foldle it, it helps me get a hard on."

Prosecutor: "You weren't planning to use the pistol to shoot someone?"

Mr. Kojax: " I like to fondle it, it helps me get a hard on, and I really like having a hard on!"
.........etc...etc.

..........
moral?
Never admit to premeditation!!!!
.............
no offense intended
(it's just my sense of humor)

Originally Posted by sculptor

prosecutor: "Mr. Kojax why were you walking through that neighbrhood holding a loaded pistol hidden under your coat sleeves?"

Mr, Kojax: " I like to foldle it, it helps me get a hard on."

Prosecutor: "You weren't planning to use the pistol to shoot someone?"

Mr. Kojax: " I like to fondle it, it helps me get a hard on, and I really like having a hard on!"
.........etc...etc.

..........
moral?
Never admit to premeditation!!!!
.............
no offense intended
(it's just my sense of humor)

Sense of humor, maybe... but it comes across as a straw man attack on a persons right to defend.

So if a man defends himself with a weapon, he only had that weapon for sexual gratification? You're 'joke' really took the premise out of rational boundaries, here.

the point of law being, if you carried the weapon with "the intent" of using it, as a weapon, to kill someone, that is permeditation, and that gets you convicted of manslaughter if not murder in these united states of america

sexual gratification is just a silly ploy to dissolve the prosecutions seriousness into silly perversions that have nothing to do with premeditated manslaughter.
any ploy will do if well crafted and stuck to
the point is to make a smoke screan that allows the jury a shadow of doubt, because, if you shoot someone with a concealed weapon which you were holding in preparation of using it , you're gonna need a good smoke screen
unless you really want to go to prison

..............
personally, I think that people who go around armed should seriously consider the old saying:
"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword".

Originally Posted by sculptor

the point of law being, if you carried the weapon with "the intent" of using it, as a weapon, to kill someone, that is permeditation, and that gets you convicted of manslaughter if not murder in these united states of america

No. That is not what the law says. Carrying a weapon in case you need it for self defense is not defined as carrying it with intent to commit premeditated murder.
Defensive actions are not premeditated murder - they are precautionary actions.

carrying
in a holster,
or, in your hand concealed by long sleeves intended to conceal the weapon
kinda
apples and oranges
true?

Originally Posted by sculptor

carrying
in a holster,
or, in your hand concealed by long sleeves intended to conceal the weapon
kinda
apples and oranges
true?

I think that motivation is the important factor. What motive do you have for carrying the concealed weapon? Is it back up in case you need it but hope that you never need it?
Or is it carried in the hope that you get to pop some caps some day?

In the end, you may never know a persons true motivation. But if they use it to defend themselves from attack, they are within their rights.

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Originally Posted by arKane

Neverfly

I agree with your thinking on this one. You have to take a threat from a criminal seriously and take appropreate action. But I have to say that appropriate action may not be the same for all of us. As we all have different abilities depending on our age, physical condition and training.

What would be the most appropriate action for you if for example someone was trying to steal your phone or something?

I would need to know more about the situation before I could answer that question. Does the thief have a weapon of some kind, is there more than one of them, is he bigger and stronger than me. In general I'm not going to risk a whole lot over a phone or a wallet. But if I think I might have the edge I might give fighting a try.

Say for example, he is shorter than you then he threatens you to give your phone and wallet to him or he'll stab you using an ice pick- the ice pick is already up on your skin and one single blow would lead it to penetrate. Would you give your phone or find the right opportunity to fight him? Say you opt to fight him and get an advantage over him in combat, would you use the ice pick to stab him?

I'd kiss my phone goodbye.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by sculptor

prosecutor: "Mr. Kojax why were you walking through that neighbrhood holding a loaded pistol hidden under your coat sleeves?"

Mr, Kojax: " I like to foldle it, it helps me get a hard on."

Prosecutor: "You weren't planning to use the pistol to shoot someone?"

Mr. Kojax: " I like to fondle it, it helps me get a hard on, and I really like having a hard on!"
.........etc...etc.

..........
moral?
Never admit to premeditation!!!!
.............
no offense intended
(it's just my sense of humor)

Sense of humor, maybe... but it comes across as a straw man attack on a persons right to defend.

So if a man defends himself with a weapon, he only had that weapon for sexual gratification? You're 'joke' really took the premise out of rational boundaries, here.

Having legal problems is better than being dead because you let it happen. On the other hand if you don't have a gun, you can't shoot anybody with it, so you are going to have to work it out the best you can and hopefully you won't get killed doing it.

Originally Posted by arKane

Having legal problems is better than being dead because you let it happen. On the other hand if you don't have a gun, you can't shoot anybody with it, so you are going to have to work it out the best you can and hopefully you won't get killed doing it.

If unarmed and over-powered, it's probably better to risk appeasing the demand by giving them what they want.
For some, parents etc., it's better to not risk your own life over possessions.
If you're armed or not overpowered, I see nothing wrong with regaining the upper hand and taking out a criminal that causes harm to citizens of a society.
I think that legalities should not hamper self defense.

I knew an ex israeli commando who was out walking one night when threatened by a youngster with a knife, demanding his money.
This well trained warrior didn't take the threat seriously and one thing led to another, and this (maybe 13? year old) kid stabbed my friend, who stood for a moment in shock before dropping the kid with a fast hand. Later, he told me "I couldn't believe it, the damned kid stabbed me".

(i had accidentally hit this ex commando with a steel pipe during combat training-with a back-swing-, and knocked him unconsciuos, and while unconcsious, he rolled to cover---this was no pencil pushing wanna-be---------but one well trained combatant, and you better believe that i stood off a bit as i watched him regain consciousness)---"You ok? how many fingers am I holding up? what day is today? any trouble focusing your eyes?"

moral:
even the best trained in combat are prone to the vissitudes of the risk assessment of the moment.
Always, run away if you can, and launch yourself with max fury seeking max harm if you can't.

Once a long time ago, I was attacked while in a booth at a restaurant with my back to the wall. After taking a couple punches, I threw off my glasses, roared like a bull, and launched myself at my attacker, knocking him down, and hitting him with my fists, and anything that came to hand just as fast as i possibly could(amazing just how many punches someone can take without seeming impared)---then his 3 friends started in on me kicking me as I curled up into a ball, and my friend started to pull them off me as the cops showed up------one cop who knew me said "on christmass eve rodney?" and I said "I was just defending myself".
Then the cops said I would have to pay part of the damages, to which I replied "Not one fucking penny---he threw the first 2 punches, and i was just defending myself with my back to the wall, and I'll take my chances in court". Then I turned to the cop I knew, and said, "You know me Stan, have I ever started a fight?" So the other guy and his friends paid the damages, then hauled their friend off to the hospital, as I began to yell, "where are my glasses, anyone see where they landed," and another patron of the restaurant offered them up to me, along with a napkin for the blood.
If I coulda run, I wouda run.
(honest)

I once told a bully who wanted me to meet him after school behind the woodshop so we could fight, "I got a better idea Ralph, I conceed, you win. You know that you can beat the crap out of me, I know that you could beat the crap out of me, everyone here knows that you can beat the crap out of me, so , you got nothing to prove, and I'll just conceed. You win! (lessons from playing chess)
amazingly, Ralph and I actually became friends after that encounter.

The old saying is "fight or flight"
whenever possible, may I recommend flight
and if you must fight, don't hold back, cry havoc and let loose the hounds of war. Don't stop while your opponent is still moving.
But, nobody wins a fight, ever. The last (wo)man standing will suffer soreness for days, if not permanent disfigurement.

Originally Posted by sculptor

Always, run away if you can, and launch yourself with max fury seeking max harm if you can't.

Flight or fight.
On this one, our minds are different.
This isn't a matter here, of what is right or wrong, but mentality. You make a good point about even the best trained individual can be caught off guard.
But this doesn't mean he should always flee, either, because he'll only be caught off guard if he allows himself to be.
My own mind sees this differently. I believe it's his choice. He may come to harm, he may not, but he has the freedom to choose how he'll respond to attack. Whether to fight or to take flight.

An anecdote of my own. When I was a kid, I lived in a rough neighborhood. I don't mean rough, I mean rough.
Getting jumped wasn't unusual for me. I never ran away, though I often went home beaten and once, had to be awakened by a passing stranger so that I could get up and go home.
They didn't take kindly to my sort there. They told me I was the wrong color and that I couldn't walk on their streets.
It went on...
Until one day, as the group descended on me, the largest of the group did something he'd never done before. He got up from his seated position.
He'd always just watched, but now, after I'd been defiant too long, I figured he'd decided to wrap this one up once and for all. I took off my wallet chain and wrapped it around my fist... and gestured to him, "Bring it on."

He shook his head.

He put out his hand, and said, "You gotta lotta heart."

No one ever questioned my presence again.

Standing up says just as much as surviving. Placing your mark. Being defiant, costs be damned. Not breaking, giving in or knuckling under.

Perhaps for some, they might choose a different course.

I've carried my scars from a very early age, I carry many more that I earned in the years that followed. I have been in many fights, with not just humans, I've been in combat as well. I have the mental and the physical scars and in the end...

I have nightmares over the violence I've engaged in. The death I have caused. I wouldn't undo it. If I had it all over to do again, I'd do the same.

Because I knew at that time what I had chosen. I'd chosen to carry that and I WILL carry it. I will mourn those lives I've taken and know that I've done what I had to do. I'll regret the violence but I'll know that violent men like me defend those that would choose to run.

Lay your weapons by my side if you choose not to use them- I will pick them up and I will fight on your behalf.

Maybe some would disapprove. Maybe some would call me a monster. I've been called such many times. Spat at, too. Others know the feeling. Well, go ahead and spit. I am a monster. I have no illusions about it. Because I am willing to carry that grief and hurt and pain- I cannot pretend it never happened or blank the memory. I cannot close out the eyes that stare at me when I close mine at night- the eyes of serbian soldiers that I looked into right before firing a weapon. I cannot nor would I ever deny it- I will carry it.

I won't deny it keeps me awake and I won't even deny it causes some bit of self loathing or even (damnit) tears.
I also won't deny the Bosnian people that now, today, are alive because I squeezed a trigger.


So, Run. Preserve. Stay alive.

I'll cover you while you move.

I only ask one favor: If I do get caught off gaurd, if I do fall because I judged what I felt was right, that I chose not to run... Have the decency to not spit on my grave. Just nod and say, "Thanks, you fool."

Granted, Neverfly

If you stand your ground and refuse to be bullied, you've already won the psycological part of the fight, and quite often in my youth, that was all it took.
(see the Ralph story above) I conceeded the victory without having to fight.

I always(well maybe not always) sought to avoid fights, (and never started one) but when I couldn't avoid the fight, I always went balls to the wall(so to speak) seeking to assure that the other guy felt some real pain, and never wanted to attack me again--------sometimes, one good fight seemed to mean fewer fights down the road. There is something to be said about the motto, "Never give one goddamned inch!"

But i still recommend flight, unless that flight means just putting it off for awhile, and not ending it.

If you are completely aware, something as simple as going up on your toes when you see a hay maker punch coming reduces the power of that punch enough so that it becomes meaningless. And, when someone has thrown his best punch, and you remain unharmed, that demoralizes your opponent, and again you have another small victory. String a few of these together, and there is a lot less healing pain down the road.

But I still recommend flight.

But most of all, Be aware of your surroundings and your options. In the restaurant story above, there were 4 of them and 2 of us, so had we been in open country I'd've been thinking, "feet don't fail me now" but that wasn't an option, and obviously the attacker had never read his Sun Tzu("the art of war") who recommended never attacking an opponent whose back was to the wall.

Originally Posted by sculptor

and obviously the attacker had never read his Sun Tzu("the art of war") who recommended never attacking an opponent whose back was to the wall.

S.G. can confirm this one, I don't sit with my back facing the open. Occasionally, in some restaraunts, I don't have a choice and much as I try to stifle it, it drives me crazy to not have my back against the wall.
Never read Sun Tzu, either. Kept my back to the wall since I was a kid. But hadn't heard of the Philosopher until I watched "Firefly."

I had a cop friend in chicago who
always kept his back to the wall
almost always kept one hand on one of his handguns.
he lived in a "secure" highrise downtown
and was really upset when my partner and I knocked on his door one day
(we were in the neighborhood and had thought to invite him out for coffee-and at a nearby deli)
most "secure" buildings with doorman, etc have unsecured loading docks and freight elevators
which, apparently he did not know
I fear that we may have left him a tad more paranoid than normal
(just because you know that you are paranoid doesn't mean that some asshole ain't gonna shoot you in the back)

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Hello guys

I would just like to ask if it would be considered a crime if you accidentally or intentionally killed a person who tried to rob you? Of course you were defending yourself as he was trying to mug you, but does that give you the license to kill as your life has been threatened by the robber?

Just curious. Thanks

The only time anyone has tried to mug (rob) me was when I was a teenager and had gone to London with some friends to go clubbing. While we queing to get in there was a 'shady' bunch hanging around outside that looked like they were up to no good. Anyway I came out of club and was heading back to the car when one of these shady characters, I think a want to be gangster type, tried to mug me. He pulled out a lock knife and demanded my wallet. At the time I was hot sweaty and getting tired, I was in no mood for a fight let alone the thought of getting slashed or stabbed. Also I didn't have the energy to run anywhere and didn't know where this guys friends were. So I just pretended to go potty making out I just already been robbed and described to him a description of one of the people I'd seen him hanging around with when we first went in the club. I think it caught him a bit off gaurd as he just turned round and fled. I guess I was lucky, but the point is you can't always run away and nobody really knows how they are going to react until you're in that situation and having a knife shove in your face. I don't advocate violence but that said if someone sets out to rob you and ends up getting hurt then that's their look out, you can't blame the robbery victim if they overreact or use unreasonable force, because at the time they are just reacting to a dangerous situation they didn't create.

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

I was in no mood for a fight-(snip)- So I just pretended to go potty making out I just already been robbed and described to him a description of one of the people I'd seen him hanging around with when we first went in the club.

Piss on the robber! That's classic!!

I know, I know - allow me the word play...

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Hello guys

I would just like to ask if it would be considered a crime if you accidentally or intentionally killed a person who tried to rob you? Of course you were defending yourself as he was trying to mug you, but does that give you the license to kill as your life has been threatened by the robber?

Just curious. Thanks

The only time anyone has tried to mug (rob) me was when I was a teenager and had gone to London with some friends to go clubbing. While we queing to get in there was a 'shady' bunch hanging around outside that looked like they were up to no good. Anyway I came out of club and was heading back to the car when one of these shady characters, I think a want to be gangster type, tried to mug me. He pulled out a lock knife and demanded my wallet. At the time I was hot sweaty and getting tired, I was in no mood for a fight let alone the thought of getting slashed or stabbed. Also I didn't have the energy to run anywhere and didn't know where this guys friends were. So I just pretended to go potty making out I just already been robbed and described to him a description of one of the people I'd seen him hanging around with when we first went in the club. I think it caught him a bit off gaurd as he just turned round and fled. I guess I was lucky, but the point is you can't always run away and nobody really knows how they are going to react until you're in that situation and having a knife shove in your face. I don't advocate violence but that said if someone sets out to rob you and ends up getting hurt then that's their look out, you can't blame the robbery victim if they overreact or use unreasonable force, because at the time they are just reacting to a dangerous situation they didn't create.

Now that's one way of putting it. Maybe the non-violence thing could work out after all. Thanks for sharing your experience

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Now that's one way of putting it. Maybe the non-violence thing could work out after all. Thanks for sharing your experience

Non-violence can be a viable option... After-all, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Originally Posted by sculptor

prosecutor: "Mr. Kojax why were you walking through that neighbrhood holding a loaded pistol hidden under your coat sleeves?"

Mr, Kojax: " I like to foldle it, it helps me get a hard on."

Prosecutor: "You weren't planning to use the pistol to shoot someone?"

Mr. Kojax: " I like to fondle it, it helps me get a hard on, and I really like having a hard on!"
.........etc...etc.

..........
moral?
Never admit to premeditation!!!!
.............
no offense intended
(it's just my sense of humor)

I was thinking more along the lines of you saw the guy coming about a block away, maybe his body language told you it was likely he was going to try something. But maybe you're trying to get into your car, and clearly this guy knows it's your car, so you get the idea to slip the gun on your waist into your hand and pull your arm back into your sleeve a bit. Of course, you're not sure he's going to really do it. It's just a gut instinct, and you figure you'll be ready just in case. If he walks on by you're not planning to draw on him. Can't hardly call the cops if he hasn't done anything yet.

Anyway I don't own a gun. But have been in a few situations where I felt the need to improvise a weapon just to be sure. A heavy rock can kill too, if they're not ready and you throw it at their head with all your strength.

However, unless you're highly trained, whenever you go hand to hand vs. gun, you'd better be ready to kill. Once you start, you'd best not let up until they're dead or so badly messed up you know for a *fact* they're down. I'm sure there are some commandos out there that have a choice about that. Most normal people don't. The old frying-pan-to-the-head works great in the movies, but in real life that's likely to be a death blow.

I only mentioned the gun in order to make it a simpler scenario.

Originally Posted by kojax

Anyway I don't own a gun. But have been in a few situations where I felt the need to improvise a weapon just to be sure. A heavy rock can kill too, if they're not ready and you throw it at their head with all your strength.

Well I have to be honest here guys, might sound a bit wuss, but if it ever came to a situation where I had a weapon and thought I might end up killing someone trying to mug me I think I' rather just hand over my wallet than take the risk that I might actually kill someone, but I guess that's just the choice that I would make.

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

Originally Posted by kojax

Anyway I don't own a gun. But have been in a few situations where I felt the need to improvise a weapon just to be sure. A heavy rock can kill too, if they're not ready and you throw it at their head with all your strength.

Well I have to be honest here guys, might sound a bit wuss, but if it ever came to a situation where I had a weapon and thought I might end up killing someone trying to mug me I think I' rather just hand over my wallet than take the risk that I might actually kill someone, but I guess that's just the choice that I would make.

Oh, thanks for sharing your decision

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by thefreethinker31

Now that's one way of putting it. Maybe the non-violence thing could work out after all. Thanks for sharing your experience

Non-violence can be a viable option... After-all, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Might actually try being non-violent in other aspects in my life. Might actually work out

It's just a few pieces of paper signifying a certain ascribed value in a fiat currency.
But I like the idea of subterfuge.

Maybe it depends on where you wander, but, for me, carrying a 3 pound pistol about on the .0001 percent chance that I might need it ain't something I want to do.
The trick is, to be prepared to draw and fire, or don't draw, and feel the fine line between need and fear with the judgement of one who is enlightened.
(But then again, I'm rural and don't stay in town late---so, take it with a grain)

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by sculptor

You would kill another human being over the things you carry in your pockets?

wow
seems a tad rad to me dad

I would. Absolutely. Even if my pockets were empty.

Here is why:
A person that thinks so little of my life as to be willing to kill me over that things in my pockets will see others this way as well. To rid the world of him would be doing a favor to all little old ladies walking around with things in their pockets. Eliminate the threat.
Who knows what other crimes he fancies, from rape to burglary.

It is not the value of the things in the pockets that is the true measure, but the place we hold in this society that we've created. When he places my life by the worth in my pockets, I place him to the same measure.

Inscribe it on his grave marker:

"Here lies a fool that did something stupid. Darwin Points-Plus 1"

(Edit)
I HAVE HAD THE FEELING SEVERAL TIMES, THAT NEVERFLY WAS TRYING TO MANIPULATE MY BRAIN, OR MESS WITH MY HEAD.


It seems everyone is focusing in on the criminals rights.
What about the rights of honest people, to go about their business un-harassed?

Shouldn't we focus on the rights, of the good and honest first?
Its as if we care more about a criminals rights, than the rights of good and honest people.

One thing I would like to add. Were I live, poverty causes many people to do crimes. And because of this, I just cant have a (pure) attitude like yours. I believe (some) criminals are good people, and an uncaring society forced them into crime. *


All of the rights we have been speaking of recently, seem illogical to me.
Like here in America, everyone speaks about the rights of the rich.
They say the rich have the right, to keep 100% of their money.

But what about the rights of a hungry child?
What about the rights of good and honest, hungry men and women?
The rights of hungry children, are out-weighed by the rights of immoral greedy rich men.

Here in America our homeless rates, hungry children rates, and poverty rates just keep going up.

And we all sit here and speak of a criminals rights. And we speak of the rights of greedy immoral rich men, to keep 100% of their money.

What about the rights of hungry children?
What about the rights of good and honest poor people?

Originally Posted by chad

Your post here is a refreshing breath of fresh air.

It seems everyone is focusing in on the criminals rights.

What about the rights of honest people, to go about their business un-harassed?


Shouldn't we focus on the rights, of the good and honest first?

Its as if we care more about a criminals rights, than the rights of good and honest people.

Oh, I'm all for criminal rights considering that many accused criminals are, in fact, good and honest people.
However, when said criminal is in my face and making a threat, I'll excersize certain rights of my own...

Originally Posted by chad

One thing I would like to add. Were I live, poverty causes many people to do crimes. And because of this, I just cant have a (pure) attitude like yours. I believe (some) criminals are good people, and an uncaring society forced them into crime.

A buddy of mine commented a while back on how you see such high crime rates in poor neighborhoods. My response was, "Crime doesn't really pay."

Some people, when facing severe finaincial problems may just get stupid. I understand that. But the majority or guys that have an addiction of some sort to feed. Muggers are far more likely to need the money for a rock of crack than for a starving child to get a Happy Meal.
Once he draws a knife of pistol against me, his reaons or motives take second place to my instinctive urge to "eliminate the threat."

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by chad

Your post here is a refreshing breath of fresh air.

It seems everyone is focusing in on the criminals rights.

What about the rights of honest people, to go about their business un-harassed?



Shouldn't we focus on the rights, of the good and honest first?

Its as if we care more about a criminals rights, than the rights of good and honest people.

Oh, I'm all for criminal rights considering that many accused criminals are, in fact, good and honest people.
However, when said criminal is in my face and making a threat, I'll excersize certain rights of my own...

Originally Posted by chad

One thing I would like to add. Were I live, poverty causes many people to do crimes. And because of this, I just cant have a (pure) attitude like yours. I believe (some) criminals are good people, and an uncaring society forced them into crime.

A buddy of mine commented a while back on how you see such high crime rates in poor neighborhoods. My response was, "Crime doesn't really pay."

Some people, when facing severe finaincial problems may just get stupid. I understand that. But the majority or guys that have an addiction of some sort to feed. Muggers are far more likely to need the money for a rock of crack than for a starving child to get a Happy Meal.
Once he draws a knife of pistol against me, his reaons or motives take second place to my instinctive urge to "eliminate the threat."

I had a young man on a bicycle, pull out a pistol on me, when I was about 17 years old. It was around 2:30 pm on a sunny day, on a lightly traveled back street. He was about 15 years old, and from the way he showed the pistol, I could tell he was not one to mess with. He was a good distance away, and I had a high fence next to me.

I did not think of running, and I did not think of fighting back. My only thought was to let him know I was cool, and let him know I really had no money.
After we said a few words, the young man put up the gun, and quickly drove off on his bike.

I learned the power of a gun that day. He was a little kid, and in a regular fight, he would not have had a chance. But with that gun in his hand, he was badder than Mike Tyson.

I was nervous for a few hours after that, but I did not call the police. The only thing I wanted to do to him, was thank him for not shooting me.

Originally Posted by chad

The only thing I wanted to do to him, was thank him for not shooting me.

Say what? It might be okay to think that. But if you show that kind of weakness you open yourself up to more of the same.

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by chad

The only thing I wanted to do to him, was thank him for not shooting me.

Say what? It might be okay to think that. But if you show that kind of weakness you open yourself up to more of the same.

At least he's honest. I doubt he actually said that out loud to the guy, but the thing is, that's a pretty common feeling for a "nice guy" that finds himself "spared."
By 'Nice Guy,' I mean a person that is usually non-violent and means no real harm.
It's one of the primary reasons I could never act violently against a nice guy. On the scale of evolution, it makes no sense. Yet, it's nature all the same; I simply could not punch a guy that would feel gratitude toward me for not doing so if he knew I thought about doing so.
In the school days, I preferred to be as friendly as possible to 'such people' and help them avoid feeling gratitude toward jerks who would have hit them. In other words, defending some people from bullies. (Not saying Chad needed bully defense- I'm on a tangent.)

Maybe some part of me wanted others to believe that I was a "nice guy," too. I've never enjoyed or taken any pleasure in killing... I'll catch a bee or spider and put it outside rather than kill it. I never shot anything for sport or for fun.
But I do have that violence within me that I will do it quite coldly when necessary. It's like I am not a complete person or have a split personality or something... I am capable of violence to a man that strikes my son for example, but cannot be violent so as to make a victim.

There are many people in this world I can commit atrocities to and many people I could no more harm than I could strike my own child.

I liken it to why a gazelle will cry out when attacked by a lion. It's because some lions will feel pity for the gazelle and release it, if not hungry enough. That instinctive urge was passed on genetically- if caught, cry out- some may then let you go.
Or the leopard that adopted a baboon baby after killing its mother. She meant to eat, not to destroy. Not knowing what to do, she adopted the orphan rather than dispatch it quickly.

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by chad

The only thing I wanted to do to him, was thank him for not shooting me.

Say what? It might be okay to think that. But if you show that kind of weakness you open yourself up to more of the same.

From you?

Originally Posted by chad

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by chad

The only thing I wanted to do to him, was thank him for not shooting me.

Say what? It might be okay to think that. But if you show that kind of weakness you open yourself up to more of the same.

From you?

If we were face to face, I would know what you were going to do, (before your own brain did.)

Maybe, but if I had the gun and wanted you dead, I wouldn't feel the need BS with you like in the movies. That always irks me that the bad guys can't ever shoot worth a shit and they always BS until the good guys can get the upper hand and turn the tables.

Originally Posted by arKane

Maybe, but if I had the gun and wanted you dead, I wouldn't feel the need BS with you like in the movies. That always irks me that the bad guys can't ever shoot worth a shit and they always BS until the good guys can get the upper hand and turn the tables.

When you have to shoot...Shoot! Don't talk - YouTube

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by chad

The only thing I wanted to do to him, was thank him for not shooting me.

Say what? It might be okay to think that. But if you show that kind of weakness you open yourself up to more of the same.

At least he's honest. I doubt he actually said that out loud to the guy, but the thing is, that's a pretty common feeling for a "nice guy" that finds himself "spared."
By 'Nice Guy,' I mean a person that is usually non-violent and means no real harm.
It's one of the primary reasons I could never act violently against a nice guy. On the scale of evolution, it makes no sense. Yet, it's nature all the same; I simply could not punch a guy that would feel gratitude toward me for not doing so if he knew I thought about doing so.
In the school days, I preferred to be as friendly as possible to 'such people' and help them avoid feeling gratitude toward jerks who would have hit them. In other words, defending some people from bullies. (Not saying Chad needed bully defense- I'm on a tangent.)

Maybe some part of me wanted others to believe that I was a "nice guy," too. I've never enjoyed or taken any pleasure in killing... I'll catch a bee or spider and put it outside rather than kill it. I never shot anything for sport or for fun.
But I do have that violence within me that I will do it quite coldly when necessary. It's like I am not a complete person or have a split personality or something... I am capable of violence to a man that strikes my son for example, but cannot be violent so as to make a victim.

There are many people in this world I can commit atrocities to and many people I could no more harm than I could strike my own child.

I liken it to why a gazelle will cry out when attacked by a lion. It's because some lions will feel pity for the gazelle and release it, if not hungry enough. That instinctive urge was passed on genetically- if caught, cry out- some may then let you go.
Or the leopard that adopted a baboon baby after killing its mother. She meant to eat, not to destroy. Not knowing what to do, she adopted the orphan rather than dispatch it quickly.

I am suspicious that Neverfly, is trying to mess with my brain.

Stay away from me Neverfly.

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by chad

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by chad

The only thing I wanted to do to him, was thank him for not shooting me.

Say what? It might be okay to think that. But if you show that kind of weakness you open yourself up to more of the same.

From you?

If we were face to face, I would know what you were going to do, (before your own brain did.)

Maybe, but if I had the gun and wanted you dead, I wouldn't feel the need BS with you like in the movies. That always irks me that the bad guys can't ever shoot worth a shit and they always BS until the good guys can get the upper hand and turn the tables.

You want the bad guys to win the fights?

I am watching both of you.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by chad

The only thing I wanted to do to him, was thank him for not shooting me.

Say what? It might be okay to think that. But if you show that kind of weakness you open yourself up to more of the same.

At least he's honest. I doubt he actually said that out loud to the guy, but the thing is, that's a pretty common feeling for a "nice guy" that finds himself "spared."
By 'Nice Guy,' I mean a person that is usually non-violent and means no real harm.
It's one of the primary reasons I could never act violently against a nice guy. On the scale of evolution, it makes no sense. Yet, it's nature all the same; I simply could not punch a guy that would feel gratitude toward me for not doing so if he knew I thought about doing so.
In the school days, I preferred to be as friendly as possible to 'such people' and help them avoid feeling gratitude toward jerks who would have hit them. In other words, defending some people from bullies. (Not saying Chad needed bully defense- I'm on a tangent.)

Maybe some part of me wanted others to believe that I was a "nice guy," too. I've never enjoyed or taken any pleasure in killing... I'll catch a bee or spider and put it outside rather than kill it. I never shot anything for sport or for fun.
But I do have that violence within me that I will do it quite coldly when necessary. It's like I am not a complete person or have a split personality or something... I am capable of violence to a man that strikes my son for example, but cannot be violent so as to make a victim.

There are many people in this world I can commit atrocities to and many people I could no more harm than I could strike my own child.

I liken it to why a gazelle will cry out when attacked by a lion. It's because some lions will feel pity for the gazelle and release it, if not hungry enough. That instinctive urge was passed on genetically- if caught, cry out- some may then let you go.
Or the leopard that adopted a baboon baby after killing its mother. She meant to eat, not to destroy. Not knowing what to do, she adopted the orphan rather than dispatch it quickly.

I want out your fantasy world too.

Originally Posted by chad

If/when the day comes, you no longer consider yourself, to be the boss, toughest man around, gang leader, and over me.

I don't see what I said that inspired that comment. I don't think I'm the toughest guy around, but I think I'm no slouch. I certainly am not a gang leader. I'm my own boss... Am I "over you?"
I prefer my opinions to yours most of the time... does that count? I'm lost...

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by chad

Originally Posted by arKane

Originally Posted by chad

The only thing I wanted to do to him, was thank him for not shooting me.

Say what? It might be okay to think that. But if you show that kind of weakness you open yourself up to more of the same.

From you?

If we were face to face, I would know what you were going to do, (before your own brain did.)

Maybe, but if I had the gun and wanted you dead, I wouldn't feel the need BS with you like in the movies. That always irks me that the bad guys can't ever shoot worth a shit and they always BS until the good guys can get the upper hand and turn the tables.

If you read what this guy says above, his personality desires the "bad guys" to win.

Is he evil?
Is he is trying to act stupid?


Or did he fall into Neverfly's world, just like I did?

Originally Posted by chad

If you read what this guy says above, his personality desires the "bad guys" to win.

Is he evil?
Is he is trying to act stupid?

In another forum I noticed a poster, who came in and purposely tried to disrupt that forum.

Is this guy doing the same?

Its hard to believe anyone can be as stupid as this guy.

Relax, Chad. You misunderstood his post.
He was showing a certain fallacy and you'd be wise to listen:
Had you expressed weakness to the crook, he would have used it against you- to harm you.
He went about it in a lighthearted way, but he was by no means, rooting for the bad guy. He was giving you a bit of wisdom. Heed your elders.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by chad

If you read what this guy says above, his personality desires the "bad guys" to win.

Is he evil?
Is he is trying to act stupid?

In another forum I noticed a poster, who came in and purposely tried to disrupt that forum.

Is this guy doing the same?

Its hard to believe anyone can be as stupid as this guy.

Relax, Chad. You misunderstood his post.
He was showing a certain fallacy and you'd be wise to listen:
Had you expressed weakness to the crook, he would have used it against you- to harm you.
He went about it in a lighthearted way, but he was by no means, rooting for the bad guy. He was giving you a bit of wisdom. Heed your elders.

In another forum I saw posters come into the forum, and purposely try to disrupt the forum.

I do not trust you.

Stay the hell away from me.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by chad

If you read what this guy says above, his personality desires the "bad guys" to win.

Is he evil?
Is he is trying to act stupid?

In another forum I noticed a poster, who came in and purposely tried to disrupt that forum.

Is this guy doing the same?

Its hard to believe anyone can be as stupid as this guy.

I numbered Neverflys last post bellow, to look at his words.

1.) Relax, Chad. You misunderstood his post.
2.) He was showing a certain fallacy and you'd be wise to listen:
3.) Had you expressed weakness to the crook, he would have used it against you- to harm you.
4.) He went about it in a lighthearted way, but he was by no means, rooting for the bad guy. He was giving you a bit of wisdom. Heed your elders.

You and your crew are my elders?

It appears everyone else will heed you, but I will not.

Chad, I've reported your posts due to your very bad habit of going back to posts that others have replied to and totally, completely altering their content into something else entirely. In addition to altering the content into something totally new, in post number 68 you altered the content in what appears to be a way of making yourself look more 'innocent' in the discussion by removing your statement of "if we were face to face I'd know what you were going to do before your own brain did."
Posts numbered: 63 65 68 71 72 73 74
You've altered at least five to seven posts heavily in recent discussion as well as doing it in other threads (I found it odd at the time). The statements you make should stand for the record, not be heavily altered or removed every time you dislike the replies you receive. Edits are for adding afterthoughts and making spelling/grammar corrections etc.

Hey Chad, what's up with you constantly editing your posts? From the quotes that got made of you before you edited it seems you are deleting content that would change the way someone would reasonably respond to your posts. Seems YOU are the one trying to disrupt a forum here. What gives?

Neverfly I have never seen anyone, who can stand in a thread like you.

Only problem is, you do (not) stand untouched, by facts or principle. You stand untouched by manipulation.

Perhaps dictator like instincts inside of you, cause you to not back down?

Originally Posted by chad

All of you have a nice night with your "elder" Neverfly.

I felt several times he was trying to mess with my head.


I am leaving this place, you all can hang out with your "elder" tough guy, gang leader, talk to me like Charles Manson leader.. I heard another forum member refer to him, by something like dad.


You all can hang out with your daddy Neverfly. While he calls himself "the elder".

Fu-- this scene.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.....



Neverfly, lmao, he called you daddy... wow.

Funny thing is, when I said, "elders" I was referring to arKane. He's the old curmudgeon around here.

I told you to stop talking to me Neverfly.

You say its a joke, this is no joke.

Is this a science forum, a place to act like charles manson, or a place to act like a dictator?


STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM ME.

Originally Posted by neverfly

funny thing is, when i said, "elders" i was referring to arkane. He's the old curmudgeon around here.

Stop using me to explain anything.

Stop it all.

Originally Posted by chad

Neverfly had (me) calling him "chief."

But I edited it out.

Just to clarify this, I never asked nor demanded that Chad call me "chief." In this statement, I think he's saying that he felt compelled to do so but stopped himself.

Chad, I can avoid you to the best of my ability, but if you're going to discuss me, I will respond appropriately.
I don't mind not responding to general posts you make, so it would be best if you do not mention me or talk of me in future posts.

Originally Posted by chad

I told you to stop talking to me Neverfly.

Call yourself "the elder" some more.
Then mess with peoples heads, and get them to call you dad some more.
Stand up as their leader, and then take your flock to investigate my edited posts.

I dont give a F. what you do about my edited posts.

STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM ME.

Originally Posted by chad

Originally Posted by neverfly

funny thing is, when i said, "elders" i was referring to arkane. He's the old curmudgeon around here.

Stop using me to explain anything.
Stay away from me.

Originally Posted by chad

I told you to stop talking to me Neverfly.

Call yourself "the elder" some more.
Then mess with peoples heads, and get them to call you dad some more.
Stand up as their leader, and then take your flock to investigate my edited posts.

I dont give a F. what you do about my edited posts.

STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM ME.

Originally Posted by chad

Originally Posted by neverfly

funny thing is, when i said, "elders" i was referring to arkane. He's the old curmudgeon around here.

Stop using me to explain anything.
Stay away from me.

Originally Posted by chad

Neverfly had (me) calling him "chief."

But I edited it out.

Hey Chad, you do know that you can add members to your ignore list, right? Just go to Neverfly's and arKane's profiles and click "add to ignore list". Neither of them can come get you through your computer. And both are free to continue posting in this thread whether you are here or not.

Neverfly never had you calling him cheif, If you called him that it was by your own free will.

I am curious, are you supposed to be on some medication that you have forgotten to take?

I will admit, you are quite entertaining to watch. And the only one messing with your head is your own self.

Another tip, multiple posting is against forum rules, something you may want to take into consideration when you are accusing other members of intentionally disrupting forums.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by chad

Neverfly had (me) calling him "chief."

But I edited it out.

Just to clarify this, I never asked nor demanded that Chad call me "chief." In this statement, I think he's saying that he felt compelled to do so but stopped himself.

Chad, I can avoid you to the best of my ability, but if you're going to discuss me, I will respond appropriately.
I don't mind not responding to general posts you make, so it would be best if you do not mention me or talk of me in future posts.

Originally Posted by chad

I told you to stop talking to me Neverfly.

Call yourself "the elder" some more.
Then mess with peoples heads, and get them to call you dad some more.
Stand up as their leader, and then take your flock to investigate my edited posts.

I dont give a F. what you do about my edited posts.

STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM ME.

Originally Posted by chad

Originally Posted by neverfly

funny thing is, when i said, "elders" i was referring to arkane. He's the old curmudgeon around here.

Stop using me to explain anything.
Stay away from me.

Stay away from me!!!

I have been suspicious of you for several reasons.

Originally Posted by chad

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by chad

Neverfly had (me) calling him "chief."

But I edited it out.

Just to clarify this, I never asked nor demanded that Chad call me "chief." In this statement, I think he's saying that he felt compelled to do so but stopped himself.

Chad, I can avoid you to the best of my ability, but if you're going to discuss me, I will respond appropriately.
I don't mind not responding to general posts you make, so it would be best if you do not mention me or talk of me in future posts.

Originally Posted by chad

I told you to stop talking to me Neverfly.

Call yourself "the elder" some more.
Then mess with peoples heads, and get them to call you dad some more.
Stand up as their leader, and then take your flock to investigate my edited posts.

I dont give a F. what you do about my edited posts.

STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM ME.

Originally Posted by chad

Originally Posted by neverfly

funny thing is, when i said, "elders" i was referring to arkane. He's the old curmudgeon around here.

Stop using me to explain anything.
Stay away from me.

Stay away from me!!!

He is no where near you dude! Relax!

Originally Posted by chad

Stay away from me!!!

I have been suspicious of you for several reasons.

Ah yet another edit. I am curious, what are the reasons?

Originally Posted by sculptor

You would kill another human being over the things you carry in your pockets?

wow
seems a tad rad to me dad

Sculptor was speaking to thefreethinker here, no one called me "Dad."

S.G. all points clarified, I think it's best to just leave this tangent alone.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by sculptor

You would kill another human being over the things you carry in your pockets?

wow
seems a tad rad to me dad

Sculptor was speaking to thefreethinker here, no one called me "Dad."

S.G. all points clarified, I think it's best to just leave this tangent alone.

Neverfly you have claimed CrisGorilitz as your special minion.

Why dont you take your minion somewhere and,

Stop talking to me!!!

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by arKane

Maybe, but if I had the gun and wanted you dead, I wouldn't feel the need BS with you like in the movies. That always irks me that the bad guys can't ever shoot worth a shit and they always BS until the good guys can get the upper hand and turn the tables.

When you have to shoot...Shoot! Don't talk - YouTube

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, loved that movie.

As a youth, we called a lot of older people "dadeo"----then shortened it to "dad"
and I never thought a single one of them had a sexual relationship with my mother.

When I use the term "dad" or "dadeo"
It's just an old habit(I mean, really old habit)
1/2 respect, and 1/2 something else
I also use the term "babe" a lot, often, it seems, inappropriately
(eg-when i call a 50 year old man, or a die-hard radical womens libber, "babe")

are we cool dadeo?

.............
edit:, epimetheus:
"a tad rad to me dad" seemed to have a certain poetic charm
and said what I felt needed saying in a light hearted manner

(but, then again, I'm oftimes wrong about such things)

Originally Posted by chad

All of you have a nice night with your "elder" Neverfly.

I felt several times he was trying to mess with my head.


I am leaving this place, you all can hang out with your "elder" tough guy, gang leader, talk to (me) like Charles Manson leader.. I heard another forum member refer to him, by something like dad.


You all can hang out with your daddy Neverfly. While he calls himself "the elder".

Fu-- this scene.

Hey Chad, I'm the old man here, and it does appear you are miss interpreting our posts in a somewhat of a paranoid way. Or maybe you are deliberately miss interpreting. I've experienced that from members before and found it's best to avoid them whenever possible.

Originally Posted by sculptor

As a youth, we called a lot of older people "dadeo"----then shortened it to "dad"
and I never thought a single one of them had a sexual relationship with my mother.

When I use the term "dad" or "dadeo"
It's just an old habit(I mean, really old habit)
1/2 respect, and 1/2 something else
I also use the term "babe" a lot, often, it seems, inappropriately
(eg-when i call a 50 year old man, or a die-hard radical womens libber, "babe")

are we cool dadeo?

.............
edit:, epimetheus:
"a tad rad to me dad" seemed to have a certain poetic charm
and said what I felt needed saying in a light hearted manner

(but, then again, I'm oftimes wrong about such things)

I wonder how much age you're showing here. My grandfather was in the habit of referring to anyone as "babe" as well.

Originally Posted by sculptor

As a youth, we called a lot of older people "dadeo"----then shortened it to "dad"
and I never thought a single one of them had a sexual relationship with my mother.

When I use the term "dad" or "dadeo"
It's just an old habit(I mean, really old habit)
1/2 respect, and 1/2 something else
I also use the term "babe" a lot, often, it seems, inappropriately
(eg-when i call a 50 year old man, or a die-hard radical womens libber, "babe")

are we cool dadeo?

.............
edit:, epimetheus:
"a tad rad to me dad" seemed to have a certain poetic charm
and said what I felt needed saying in a light hearted manner

(but, then again, I'm oftimes wrong about such things)

There are so many people, that Neverfly calls "elders and minions" around me.
That I dont want nothing around me.

This is not the time for your style of fun/jokes.
But perhaps theres never a time, for that kind of stuff.

Originally Posted by chad

Originally Posted by sculptor

As a youth, we called a lot of older people "dadeo"----then shortened it to "dad"
and I never thought a single one of them had a sexual relationship with my mother.

When I use the term "dad" or "dadeo"
It's just an old habit(I mean, really old habit)
1/2 respect, and 1/2 something else
I also use the term "babe" a lot, often, it seems, inappropriately
(eg-when i call a 50 year old man, or a die-hard radical womens libber, "babe")

are we cool dadeo?

.............
edit:, epimetheus:
"a tad rad to me dad" seemed to have a certain poetic charm
and said what I felt needed saying in a light hearted manner

(but, then again, I'm oftimes wrong about such things)

Me and you, are (not) cool.

In your above post, you are speaking of your mother in sexual relations.
You were not speaking of these sexulal acts for scientific purposes.
You are speaking of your mother in sexual relations, to have fun with Neverfly, or as he calls himself "the elder"

I do not like your style of fun.

Me and you are (not) cool.

If you ever want to speak to me again, stop acting like a child, and stop talking about mother in public "for fun."

Errr, are you losing the plot or what?
Seriously, you like apolagising, I think a big one is called for here.