Thread: Dickhead defence

Imagine the scenario: You are on a packed bus and the passenger behind you kicks the back of your seat. You turn around and politely ask him to stop. He doesn't stop. He keeps kicking the back of your chair. What do you do?

You can't change seat and you have an hours ride to go.

If you confront the man more fiercely, you risk not only a fight but a criminal conviction - which could lead the loss of your job, your house, your freedom etc.

You can't call the police for such a minor thing, and the bus driver wouldn't want to intervene. So what do you do?

I propose a 'dickhead' defence. In situations where you have "clean hands" and you have given the offender ample opportunity to disengage in his unsocial, offensive behaviour, you can attack him without fear of prosecution. He has broken the social contract to behave, therefore his body becomes forfeit. You simply tell the police "He was a dickhead" and you are free to walk away - following police investigation of course.

As long as you don't go overboard, I don't think the police should get involved. A small amount of fear is good for society. If you step out of line, there is a chance you will piss off the wrong person and get hurt.

Other possible scenarios:
- Man refuses to pay for bus fare and holds up the entire bus as the driver can start with him on it
- People who talk in cinemas
- People who try to cut in a queue

Originally Posted by SE15

I propose a 'dickhead' defence. In situations where you have "clean hands" and you have given the offender ample opportunity to disengage in his unsocial, offensive behaviour, you can attack him without fear of prosecution. He has broken the social contract to behave, therefore his body becomes forfeit. You simply tell the police "He was a dickhead" and you are free to walk away - following police investigation of course.

Can you tell me in which legal system this argument would work? You are assaulting the individual. Provocation is incidental, in most jurisdictions physical action is only acceptable to prevent injury to oneself.

Proposal: Find something universally annoying that you can employ at a moment's notice. When you are being annoyed by someone, annoy them back until they stop. If they get physical, sue their pants off.

Originally Posted by John Galt

Originally Posted by SE15

I propose a 'dickhead' defence. In situations where you have "clean hands" and you have given the offender ample opportunity to disengage in his unsocial, offensive behaviour, you can attack him without fear of prosecution. He has broken the social contract to behave, therefore his body becomes forfeit. You simply tell the police "He was a dickhead" and you are free to walk away - following police investigation of course.

Can you tell me in which legal system this argument would work? You are assaulting the individual. Provocation is incidental, in most jurisdictions physical action is only acceptable to prevent injury to oneself.

Indeed, but I am proposing a change to the law. If you can show that you did everything practical to stop the behaviour before resorting to force, then why not?

I don't see why people should be allowed to get away with acting like jerks . . .

Originally Posted by KALSTER

Proposal: Find something universally annoying that you can employ at a moment's notice. When you are being annoyed by someone, annoy them back until they stop. If they get physical, sue their pants off.

2 problems with that as I see it:

(1) You need the original annoyer to notice the annoying thing you are doing. If they are chatting away on the phone, they may not take any notice. If they do, they may join in.

(2) You'd be annoying everyone else on the bus, which isn't really fair. Instead of being stuck on a bus with one annoying idiot, they'll have two!

No way we can win unless everyone else (in the bus) is siding with us. Why? because people really doesn't care about anything unless they are effected by it. In that case if we are alone then we are the oppressed one...

EDIT (update): or you can wear mask (anonymous) and beat him unfairly like batman did... hehehe

I do have a solution for the dickheads who cruise around town centres with their stereos blasting out excessively loud music, with their windows wound down. Position yourself at a pedestrian crossing or traffic lights - sowmehere where the driver will have to stop on at least on of his circuits. When he does so, thrust your head through the window and say, "I'm very sorry, but loud bass just makes me vomit." Proceed to demonstrate the effect.

Originally Posted by SE15

You can't call the police for such a minor thing, and the bus driver wouldn't want to intervene. So what do you do?

I propose a 'dickhead' defence. In situations where you have "clean hands" and you have given the offender ample opportunity to disengage in his unsocial, offensive behaviour, you can attack him without fear of prosecution. He has broken the social contract to behave, therefore his body becomes forfeit. You simply tell the police "He was a dickhead" and you are free to walk away - following police investigation of course.

You see, the problem here is that it's likely that 85% of the population wouldn't be bothered very much by what the guy is doing, and as a result has not allowed any laws to be passed preventing it. If you're the only one who cares, that means you're being exceptionally sensitive ("being a baby"), then that would mean you're the dickhead, not him.

If there are rules about it, then by all means invoke them. Where I live, rude behavior on a bus is grounds for a person to be removed by the authorities.

As long as you don't go overboard, I don't think the police should get involved. A small amount of fear is good for society. If you step out of line, there is a chance you will piss off the wrong person and get hurt.

Any time two adults trade punches, there's a chance one of them will end up in the hospital. It can't be helped. Whatever the guy was doing probably didn't put you in medical jeopardy.

Other possible scenarios:
- Man refuses to pay for bus fare and holds up the entire bus as the driver can start with him on it
- People who talk in cinemas
- People who try to cut in a queue

This makes me wonder where you're from. Where I live, if a man refused to pay his bus fare, the driver doesn't bicker with him. He takes down the person's information to the best of his ability and then gets the police involved immediately. It's serious business. That guy is thereafter banned from riding the bus. If he dares ride any bus in the city again and is recognized by a driver, the police will come and remove him.

Same goes somewhat for cinema. If a person is talking and you complain, the owners will ask him to leave. If he refuses, he's trespassing on private property against the wishes of the owner, and if he refuses emphatically he'll likely find he's committing a minor felony. Trespassing is serious business.

If the laws where you live are at all similar to how they are where I live, then what you should do when faced with this person, is make it clear that you intend to raise a fuss, and that you'll keep pressure on the driver/bus company/etc however long it takes until the matter is resolved in your favor. Probably he wont' want to invest the time and energy he'd need to invest in order to fight your petition, and won't want to lose his bus riding privileges (which is the likely outcome of your petition if the management sides with you.)

Another option is instead of simply hitting him, challenge him to a fist fight. It's not illegal if both parties are in consent. If he refuses your challenge, then mock him and publicly insult his manhood until he changes his mind and accepts. Feel free to go on loudly to the other passengers about how small his balls are.

Sooner or later I'm sure he'll swing, but since your opening query was a request for a fist fight, his act of swinging first nullifies his initial rejection of that offer. From that moment on, it's open season.

Reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raXKeQ5qFwo

Simple: In turn, annoy the bus driver so much that he can't drive the bus. He will either eject him from the bus, or he will call for police assistance — both of which he has the authority to do. Demand that the driver return your fare to you, especially if you have bought a more expensive weekly or monthly pass. Technically, the kicking you describe is assault and battery, but unless you live in a place that has a "stand your ground (in public)" law, you have a duty to retreat but not a right to a "dickhead" defense. You're a paying customer, and you have a right to ride the bus without such harassment.

I was reading this post and the thought occurred to me why would I wish to end up having to give statements to the police never mind having to come up with an actual defence in court from any of the senarios suggested. It just seems to me that such a result from what would be an annoying situation means things have gone very wrong indeed. Whilst none of us can control the actions of others we are most certainly responsible for our own actions. If we are reasonably inteligent we should also be able to act and respond to situations in away as to engender a possitive outcome.

Lets consider this do I really want to get into a physical conflict, have to give police statements and go to court or do I want to use my brain to think of another sollution.

1.) Work out why the chap is kicking my chair, easy he is obviously bored and seeking attention. If I ignore it is he really going to continue kicking chair for an entire hour or is he going to get bored with it? It's pretty likely he'd get fed up fairly quickly, and just to change the senario a little imagine if it's a child doing the kicking you can't exactly go around threaterning or using violence against children. So just imagine it's a kid doing it and ignore it.

2.) We've already worked out the chap is bored, so lets distract him and actually talk to him. Start up a conversation, it would be hard for him to carry on kicking while talking to you and it'll make your bus ride pass faster.

3.) If you really can't bring yourself to talk to him and you really are fed up with it you can always try the Meg Ryan solution. This one requires confidence, start to offer the chap words of encouragement, get vocally louder and make like it's turning you on. Chances are he will get very embarressed and quickly stop.

4.) If your really not up for 1,2 or 3 get up and walk down the bus and ask someone to exchange seats, just make a polite excuse like your not feeling very well.

What I'm trying show is it's far better to use your brain than your fists, because you will be less likely to end up in a far worse situation as a result. It will also improve your confidence and problem solving ability. As a rule I believe violence is the tool of the stupid as they don't have the brains to come up with anything else.

Brilliant idea.

But sometimes we are busy with our thing and this guy is kicking & bothering us. Does this mean WE HAVE TO go play with him & then go bother with the police? This guy won already...

Originally Posted by msafwan

But sometimes we are busy with our thing and this guy is kicking & bothering us. Does this mean WE HAVE TO go play with him & then go bother with the police? This guy won already...

Well if you handle it right you shouldn't have to see the police at all, and in life we all end up having to do things we don't like to avoid worse things, this is no different.
I would certainly say he's won if you've mishandled it and ended up in court!

Originally Posted by Japith

Brilliant idea.

So give him a like.

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

Originally Posted by msafwan

But sometimes we are busy with our thing and this guy is kicking & bothering us. Does this mean WE HAVE TO go play with him & then go bother with the police? This guy won already...

Well if you handle it right you shouldn't have to see the police at all, and in life we all end up having to do things we don't like to avoid worse things, this is no different.
I would certainly say he's won if you've mishandled it and ended up in court!

Isn't that kind of like negotiating with terrorists? (On a small scale)

Originally Posted by kojax

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

Originally Posted by msafwan

But sometimes we are busy with our thing and this guy is kicking & bothering us. Does this mean WE HAVE TO go play with him & then go bother with the police? This guy won already...

Well if you handle it right you shouldn't have to see the police at all, and in life we all end up having to do things we don't like to avoid worse things, this is no different.
I would certainly say he's won if you've mishandled it and ended up in court!

Isn't that kind of like negotiating with terrorists? (On a small scale)

No!

Try imagine driving along and hearing the radio that along the short journey you want to make there is a 2 hour tail back, if you go a different way then it'll take you an extra 15 minutes. So do you take the annoying 15 minute detour or say no and go the normal way and sit in the 2 hour traffic jam.

Life is full of annoyances, the fact that they may or may not involve other people is irrelevant.

Isn't that kind of like negotiating with terrorists?

Only if negotiating with terrorists is like negotiating with 2 year olds.

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

Originally Posted by kojax

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

Originally Posted by msafwan

But sometimes we are busy with our thing and this guy is kicking & bothering us. Does this mean WE HAVE TO go play with him & then go bother with the police? This guy won already...

Well if you handle it right you shouldn't have to see the police at all, and in life we all end up having to do things we don't like to avoid worse things, this is no different.
I would certainly say he's won if you've mishandled it and ended up in court!

Isn't that kind of like negotiating with terrorists? (On a small scale)

No!

Try imagine driving along and hearing the radio that along the short journey you want to make there is a 2 hour tail back, if you go a different way then it'll take you an extra 15 minutes. So do you take the annoying 15 minute detour or say no and go the normal way and sit in the 2 hour traffic jam.

Life is full of annoyances, the fact that they may or may not involve other people is irrelevant.

But if kicking your chair is that person's way of getting attention, and.... you give them attention, then why would they ever stop kicking chairs?

If I'm only ever going to be on this journey once, then saving myself 15 minutes just one time is not worth it, yes. But if I will be taking the journey many times, then spending 2 hours to solve a 15 minute problem is a break even proposition by the 8th time I take the journey. If I intend to take it 9 or more times, then I am making a net profit.

Originally Posted by adelady

Isn't that kind of like negotiating with terrorists?

Only if negotiating with terrorists is like negotiating with 2 year olds.

It is. Except they're taller and they have guns.

That's actually the best description I've ever heard for the problem. At their core, a terrorists is essentially just an armed 2 year old. They have a 2 year old's understanding of the consequences of their actions, and a 2 year old's comprehension of what the "adults" they're threatening can do for them if they just yell loud enough to get it.

Originally Posted by kojax

If I'm only ever going to be on this journey once, then saving myself 15 minutes just one time is not worth it, yes. But if I will be taking the journey many times, then spending 2 hours to solve a 15 minute problem is a break even proposition by the 8th time I take the journey. If I intend to take it 9 or more times, then I am making a net profit.

Unfortunately I don't think you really understood the example. The point was this simple: whilst it is still annoying having to make a 15 minute detour but if it avoids the need to sit in a 2 hour traffic jam then it is probarbly worth it. In this example you're faced with 2 choices both of which you would have rather avoided but are stuck with. It is simply about choosing the choice that results in the most desirable outcome.

The number of trips is irrelevant as the circumstances for each trip may well be different, what is important is the ability to use your brain so that you always end up with the most desirable outcome from those available and sometimes this may involve doing things we find annoying.

It's becoming clear that criminals are just dickheads of a higher calibre.

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

1.) Work out why the chap is kicking my chair, easy he is obviously bored and seeking attention. If I ignore it is he really going to continue kicking chair for an entire hour or is he going to get bored with it? It's pretty likely he'd get fed up fairly quickly, and just to change the senario a little imagine if it's a child doing the kicking you can't exactly go around threaterning or using violence against children. So just imagine it's a kid doing it and ignore it.

No, boredom is not the only possible reason to be kicking a chair. Perhaps he is listening to music and likes to tap his toes to the beat? Perhaps he's cold, or just wants a reaction

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

2.) We've already worked out the chap is bored, so lets distract him and actually talk to him. Start up a conversation, it would be hard for him to carry on kicking while talking to you and it'll make your bus ride pass faster.

You have already tried talking to him, it didn't stop the kicking.

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

3.) If you really can't bring yourself to talk to him and you really are fed up with it you can always try the Meg Ryan solution. This one requires confidence, start to offer the chap words of encouragement, get vocally louder and make like it's turning you on. Chances are he will get very embarressed and quickly stop.

That's not a guarantee, you are more likely to just piss off the rest of the passengers.

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

4.) If your really not up for 1,2 or 3 get up and walk down the bus and ask someone to exchange seats, just make a polite excuse like your not feeling very well.

And expose some other poor sod to this prick? That's not fair is it

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

What I'm trying show is it's far better to use your brain than your fists, because you will be less likely to end up in a far worse situation as a result. It will also improve your confidence and problem solving ability. As a rule I believe violence is the tool of the stupid as they don't have the brains to come up with anything else.

Not everything can be thought out and a perfect solution found. Sometimes the motivation is to intimidate someone, and unless you enjoy living on your knees, violence is the only option

You've got a point.


But only if it's the best option.

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

Originally Posted by kojax

If I'm only ever going to be on this journey once, then saving myself 15 minutes just one time is not worth it, yes. But if I will be taking the journey many times, then spending 2 hours to solve a 15 minute problem is a break even proposition by the 8th time I take the journey. If I intend to take it 9 or more times, then I am making a net profit.

Unfortunately I don't think you really understood the example. The point was this simple: whilst it is still annoying having to make a 15 minute detour but if it avoids the need to sit in a 2 hour traffic jam then it is probarbly worth it. In this example you're faced with 2 choices both of which you would have rather avoided but are stuck with. It is simply about choosing the choice that results in the most desirable outcome.

The number of trips is irrelevant as the circumstances for each trip may well be different, what is important is the ability to use your brain so that you always end up with the most desirable outcome from those available and sometimes this may involve doing things we find annoying.

Depends on if you want to look at it from the perspective of civic responsibility or not. If you appease a thug, he/she will most likely continue being a thug. The fact you yourself may not run into them again doesn't mean someone isn't going to.

Number of trips isn't the number of trips you'll take. It's the number of trips someone somewhere will have to take with that idiot sitting behind them.

Hey I have nothing against civic responsibility, but I've just got a different take on it than you. My idea is that it is about going out of your way to help people and supporting members of your community. To me it's not about beating up some guy because he's irritating or annoying me. Sure I am all for trying to talk to the guy and find out what his beef is and willing to defend myself or someone else if absolutely necessary, but violence is a loss of control. Who is the bigger asshole the man who is annoying or the man who can't keep his temper and goes round starting fights.

And how about the number of trips the other passengers on the bus will have to take with you all the time hoping that they manage not to do anything to annoy you and generate a violent response.

Also, lets just turn this situation around, suppose you had just been to the doctors or hospital and had a problem with the nerves in your legs and were sat on a bus behind some bloke. Because the problem with the nerves your legs kept kicking out involuntarily. Would this automatically give the bloke in front the right to beat you up?
We don't always have the full picture, so why act in ignorance without at least trying to find out why things are happening.

Originally Posted by SE15

Imagine the scenario: You are on a packed bus and the passenger behind you kicks the back of your seat. You turn around and politely ask him to stop. He doesn't stop. He keeps kicking the back of your chair. What do you do?

You can't change seat and you have an hours ride to go.

If you confront the man more fiercely, you risk not only a fight but a criminal conviction - which could lead the loss of your job, your house, your freedom etc.

You can't call the police for such a minor thing, and the bus driver wouldn't want to intervene. So what do you do?

I propose a 'dickhead' defence. In situations where you have "clean hands" and you have given the offender ample opportunity to disengage in his unsocial, offensive behaviour, you can attack him without fear of prosecution. He has broken the social contract to behave, therefore his body becomes forfeit. You simply tell the police "He was a dickhead" and you are free to walk away - following police investigation of course.

As long as you don't go overboard, I don't think the police should get involved. A small amount of fear is good for society. If you step out of line, there is a chance you will piss off the wrong person and get hurt.

Other possible scenarios:
- Man refuses to pay for bus fare and holds up the entire bus as the driver can start with him on it
- People who talk in cinemas
- People who try to cut in a queue

I like this thread.

And I love this idea, because our present world lacks respect.

But the point I would like to add, is the following.



Before you would have the right to attack someone. You should have to inform the person, of their rude and disrespectful behavior. And after a clear warning has been given, and the person continues to act in a rude and disrespectful way, then you could legally put that person in their proper place.

I just believe a fair warning should be given.



This thread is scratching me, just were I often itch.

Originally Posted by chad

Originally Posted by SE15

Imagine the scenario: You are on a packed bus and the passenger behind you kicks the back of your seat. You turn around and politely ask him to stop. He doesn't stop. He keeps kicking the back of your chair. What do you do?

You can't change seat and you have an hours ride to go.

If you confront the man more fiercely, you risk not only a fight but a criminal conviction - which could lead the loss of your job, your house, your freedom etc.

You can't call the police for such a minor thing, and the bus driver wouldn't want to intervene. So what do you do?

I propose a 'dickhead' defence. In situations where you have "clean hands" and you have given the offender ample opportunity to disengage in his unsocial, offensive behaviour, you can attack him without fear of prosecution. He has broken the social contract to behave, therefore his body becomes forfeit. You simply tell the police "He was a dickhead" and you are free to walk away - following police investigation of course.

As long as you don't go overboard, I don't think the police should get involved. A small amount of fear is good for society. If you step out of line, there is a chance you will piss off the wrong person and get hurt.

Other possible scenarios:
- Man refuses to pay for bus fare and holds up the entire bus as the driver can start with him on it
- People who talk in cinemas
- People who try to cut in a queue

I like this thread.

And I love this idea, because our present world lacks respect.

But the point I would like to add, is the following.



Before you would have the right to attack someone. You should have to inform the person, of their rude and disrespectful behavior. And after a clear warning has been given, and the person continues to act in a rude and disrespectful way, then you could legally put that person in their proper place.

I just believe a fair warning should be given.



This thread is scratching me, just were I often itch.

Hey what are going to do when the person you want to "legally put that person in their proper place" is 7' and 30 st or are you only talking about people smaller than you?

Originally Posted by chad

Before you would have the right to attack someone. You should have to inform the person, of their rude and disrespectful behavior. And after a clear warning has been given, and the person continues to act in a rude and disrespectful way, then you could legally put that person in their proper place.

Who determines what constitutes rude and disrespectful behaviour?

In situations like these I just brood over the nuissance - and focus my anger on me, telepathically, trying to make their brain turn into soup. My efforts haven't yielded any brain soup... Yet.

Originally Posted by stander-j

In situations like these I just brood over the nuissance - and focus my anger on me, telepathically, trying to make their brain turn into soup. My efforts haven't yielded any brain soup... Yet.

Wow, that certainly is the most novel approach to irritations I've come across, top marks for originality.

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

Originally Posted by stander-j

In situations like these I just brood over the nuissance - and focus my anger on me, telepathically, trying to make their brain turn into soup. My efforts haven't yielded any brain soup... Yet.

Wow, that certainly is the most novel approach to irritations I've come across, top marks for originality.

Thank-you, it certainly is good to know that my approach garners some acclaim - but I must confess, I was influenced by the film Scanners.