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July 27th, 2011, 05:44 PM
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 11:56 PM.
Yes. Vigilante justice is generally frowned upon.
Criminals like to commit crimes against other criminals for the simple reason that they very rarely get reported to the police. However the consequence of getting caught are usually worse for you. If you do any thing that's illegal like smoke dope and score for friends you are considered in the game and are fair game for other criminals.Originally Posted by Stanley514
Original term "outlaw" may have meaning "a person, group, or thing excluded from the benefits and protection of the law."
So may be okay to commit crimes against such persons, if they can be found. Mere "criminals", those found guilty of crimes, do in fact have some rights under law, theoretically, including right to be SLAVE under Amendment XIII of United States Constitution.
You don't have to be much of an outlaw to be vary resistant to reporting a crime against you. I've known people with a few traffic warrants because of unpaid tickets that just won't get involved with the law for any reason if they can avoid it. The funny thing is they often feel proud of it and brag about it to their so called friends. Giving out that kind of information about yourself is just plain stupid and is a serious personal security problem. If you want to put a target on your back I'm not going to want to be around you, as I'm not fond of being considered collateral damage.
Last edited by arKane; July 30th, 2011 at 01:56 AM.
How long do you want to live? Mafia etc have NO appeals program or sense of humor in such matters.
Agreed. Nor statute of limitations, Witness Protection Program exists for good reason.
my understanding is
if you make an agreement to split the gain from some crime 50/50 and then break that agreement
the law will not do anything to enforce the agreement.
but you still go to jail for committing a crime.
if you make a legitimate agreement with someone that later turns out to be a criminal and break that agreement
the law will enforce that agreement.
you go to jail for breaking the agreement
Theft is - most places - '... the unlawful taking of anything of value with the intent to keep it...' or words to that effect.
So; one knows a person who yesterday robbed the local bank and has $200,000 on his or her person. One takes - by stealth or force - that money.
Is it of value? Yes.
Does the second person in the scenario plan to keep it? Looks like it from here, so Yes.
Did the second person in the scenario have legal authority to 'take' that money? No, unless one can come up with something in law, either statutory or case law. I cannot cite the decision, but I've read of court cases where the judge found 'stealing from one who stole is stealing'.
The possible exception is stealing back one's own property, but the law usually frowns on that sort of thing as well. The legal theory is stealing back and forth leads to chaos at best and war at worst.
Not only that, but how many of these criminals would kill if they found you?Criminals like to commit crimes against other criminals for the simple reason that they very rarely get reported to the police. However the consequence of getting caught are usually worse for you. If you do any thing that's illegal like smoke dope and score for friends you are considered in the game and are fair game for other criminals.
That's a good point. I find it hard to believe that anyone stealing from a gang, would even consider leaving a live witness to point the finger back at him. That would mean you probably plan to kill whoever you rob. Which means you will have both the law and the gang looking for your ass if they can figure out it was you. That leads to the question, was it worth it? How many times have you heard someone killed and only got a few dollars for their trouble. Generally speaking someone that stupid will get caught.Not only that, but how many of these criminals would kill if they found you?Criminals like to commit crimes against other criminals for the simple reason that they very rarely get reported to the police. However the consequence of getting caught are usually worse for you. If you do any thing that's illegal like smoke dope and score for friends you are considered in the game and are fair game for other criminals.
A criminal act is a crime, regardless of who it is committed upon, and as such you can be prosecuted as usual.
Unless you have diplomatic immunity, in which case go for it.
I saw a case on court tv where one guy sued another because he loaned him money to buy drugs which they were going to sell for a profit.
the loan was never repaid.
the court refused to hear the case.
In the case of a criminal conspiracy, the court can't side with one conspirator over the other. I'm sure this guy wouldn't have been so stupid if it wasn't court TV. But it does serve to illustrate that if your going to do business with criminals, you have to be responsible for protecting your own interest, and showing everybody that watches court TV that you are a stupid criminal is really not worth whatever they paid you to do it.
Convince the jury that the allegedly "mafia" IS a Mafia,
then convince the jury that you use the money to help the people,
and I believe you will be free!
The jury and judge is not a machine that evaluate a moral dillema but a human, and they understand.
Things that is not obvious goes to trial to figure out the truth.
Trials are rarely about the truth. They are about what can be proved and in many cases how much you can afford to pay your lawyer. Also, there is nothing fun about having your fate in the hands of 12 people to stupid to get out of jury duty.
Therefore stealing money will end you up in jail.Trials are rarely about the truth. They are about what can be proved and in many cases how much you can afford to pay your lawyer. Also, there is nothing fun about having your fate in the hands of 12 people to stupid to get out of jury duty.
You can't afford the money, and the "mafia" has better lawyer, and the jury are fed-up with you.
So you end up in jail.
So, never steal money from anyone... ever.
I doubt that any evidence against the victim's character would be admissible in court.
Ok, I understand.I doubt that any evidence against the victim's character would be admissible in court.
Stealing money will make you a criminal, it doesn't matter who you steal it from.
-Evidence against the victim is not admissible in court (aka. "its about you stealing, and you did it, so you pay for it. No pointing finger")
I think you missed the point altogether. If you steal from the Mafia, it will never get to trial. But you are right about stealing. There are not to many things in this world lower than a thief.Therefore stealing money will end you up in jail.Trials are rarely about the truth. They are about what can be proved and in many cases how much you can afford to pay your lawyer. Also, there is nothing fun about having your fate in the hands of 12 people to stupid to get out of jury duty.
You can't afford the money, and the "mafia" has better lawyer, and the jury are fed-up with you.
So you end up in jail.
So, never steal money from anyone... ever.
In both ways: the thief is a criminal. If Mafia caught him: he'll die, but if police caught him: he still go to jail. As Harold said: evidence against victim is not admissible in court: so he is labelled as a "thief", and Mafia thought the same but punish him with their brand of justice.I think you missed the point altogether. If you steal from the Mafia, it will never get to trial. But you are right about stealing. There are not to many things in this world lower than a thief.Therefore stealing money will end you up in jail.Trials are rarely about the truth. They are about what can be proved and in many cases how much you can afford to pay your lawyer. Also, there is nothing fun about having your fate in the hands of 12 people to stupid to get out of jury duty.
You can't afford the money, and the "mafia" has better lawyer, and the jury are fed-up with you.
So you end up in jail.
So, never steal money from anyone... ever.
Unless there is group of village people trying to defend him: he would be criminal in both eyes of criminal justice system and Mafia. No escape. Similarly, you can't kill a Mafia or any innocent without being sentenced to death/life in prison...
So basically, if you are a powerful enough criminal, like a well connected member of a big gang, you can steal from any criminal you want, and nothing will happen. They won't report you for fear of drawing police attention to their own activities, and they won't take revenge on you for fear of provoking your gang.Criminals like to commit crimes against other criminals for the simple reason that they very rarely get reported to the police. However the consequence of getting caught are usually worse for you. If you do any thing that's illegal like smoke dope and score for friends you are considered in the game and are fair game for other criminals.
You also have a pretty free reign in "ghetto" type neighborhoods, because the people who live there have a very low amount of credibility with the police.
Choosing to live the criminal lifestyle might have it's moments of excitement. But no matter what your status is there is somebody that wants what you've got. For instance if you are a Colombian drug lord with a billion dollars in cash, is there any way you could ever take the money and run. I think not, whoever took your place as drug lord, his first order of business would be to hunt you down and get the billion dollars back over your dead body, however long that might take. So basically you are a lifer and will probably have a shorter life than you might otherwise have had were you not a criminal. But on the plus side, you get time as a very powerful person with all the beautiful women you could possibly want, a great place to live. To bad their aren't more drug lord positions to go around, most criminals won't fair so well.So basically, if you are a powerful enough criminal, like a well connected member of a big gang, you can steal from any criminal you want, and nothing will happen. They won't report you for fear of drawing police attention to their own activities, and they won't take revenge on you for fear of provoking your gang.Criminals like to commit crimes against other criminals for the simple reason that they very rarely get reported to the police. However the consequence of getting caught are usually worse for you. If you do any thing that's illegal like smoke dope and score for friends you are considered in the game and are fair game for other criminals.
You also have a pretty free reign in "ghetto" type neighborhoods, because the people who live there have a very low amount of credibility with the police.
This has somehow derailed from a definition of theft to consequence of stealing from criminals.
Lets get back to the TS topic:
Most have stated this before but let us recap what has been said. Theft is theft no matter who holds (mind you not owns) the goods being stolen.
In fact this comes down to definition of terms:
Stealing / theft =he who takes any good owned as a hole or part by someone else with the intent to keep without any legal grounds. (this is a translation of the dutch description). Now lets see how this applies to this topic:
thief (A) steals a car from the rightful owner (O).
thief (b) steals the car while its parked knowing it was stolen by (a).
the owner of the car remains (o) even though its in possession of (a) possession does not constitute ownership in this case.
thief (b) obtains possession of the car by theft.
now back the definition of theft: thief (b) takes a good (car) that is owned by (o) to keep without any legal grounds (sale, loan etc). this makes thief (b) a criminal, the fact that (a) stole it before him does not change anything to the facts of the matter.
That sounds right to me. But if thief (b) returns the car to the owner (o). Thief (b) is still a thief, but not a criminal and thief (a) a criminal suffers no penalties, because he can no longer be caught with a stolen car. For that very reason I have my car Lo-Jacked and the police will find it and hopefully whoever is in possession of it.
Why wouldn't thief (b) be a criminal after returning the car ? since its not required to keep the stolen goods to be a criminal, the fact that they where stolen in the first place makes it an act of crime, returning them does not remove the crime from the act.That sounds right to me. But if thief (b) returns the car to the owner (o). Thief (b) is still a thief, but not a criminal and thief (a) a criminal suffers no penalties, because he can no longer be caught with a stolen car. For that very reason I have my car Lo-Jacked and the police will find it and hopefully whoever is in possession of it.
Because the car is being returned to the owner. So I used inappropriate terminology, technically he is recovering the car, which is not the same as stealing the car. But he is using the skills of a thief. Getting your car back is good, but I also like to see that the real thief gets his fair share of bad karma, and going to jail fits the bill rather nicely.
Ok I read that wrong. Still going with the definition of theft, even if he is returning the car, it would still be theft unless he was instructed by the rightful owner to do so. Besides if he has permission it would not be theft but repossessioning.Because the car is being returned to the owner. So I used inappropriate terminology, technically he is recovering the car, which is not the same as stealing the car. But he is using the skills of a thief. Getting your car back is good, but I also like to see that the real thief gets his fair share of bad karma, and going to jail fits the bill rather nicely.
Just be careful who you steal from. The government doesn't like competition.
In every established State there is a legal code or norm by which the population of a country agrees to live by... if criminals show any activity, they are of course breaking the established legal norm, system or code used by such State.... by stealing from them, you are indeed going against the norm (you are commiting a crime) because you have ignored the established set of rules and regulations(legal) which have been agreed on by the population with the State and by which it has been determined that an institution (judicial) will be taking care of such matters, and your duty as a citizen is to report whichever criminal activity is going on. By stealing from them, you enter a set of rules and regulations that are (mafia) not those agreed on between state and population, and that go against the principle of good citizenry...that s just my opinion based on civility and social contract.
Car alarm companies in the past employed x car theives to establish a dood idea on how their alarms could improved. Recently a x convict won a contest on a game show he won a lot of money, I'm an honest guy unemployed so that the last time I'm honest in my life. I won't steal cheat or hurt but I will do one thing HIDE
Yes that's true, but the whole point of steeling from a criminal is that the criminal is not likely to make a police report. Therefore if the criminal doesn't find out it was you, you are free and clear. Yes you are still a thief and sooner or later you will be caught at it. The fact is most thieves steel from people they know, and many they call friend. In my book that makes a thief one of the lowest forms of human life.
Under English Law (if my memory serves me right..."A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another, with the intent of permanently depriving the owner of it and notwithstanding that an offer of payment is made."
Two interesting points here "with intent of permanently depriving the owner of it" - If you steal a car, this part of the condition of the act cannot be proven and therefore is not covered under the Theft Act of 1976....(it is covered in a later act by some other name i.e "Joyriding".
The end of the condition of act "not withstanding that an offer of payment is made" is an interesting one and an addition to the original act because there was a milkman delivering milk on his rounds who had just enough milk for the people who had ordered them on his round. A man walked up to him and asked him if he could buy some milk; the milkman said "no", so when the milkman was at someones door this guy took a pint of milk and put the money for it on the milk truck......Milkman reported it to the police and the guys defence was that he had left money at the scene and therefore had paid for it....
I believe the guy was convicted in the end of much (needless) deliberation on points of law; the act was finally cleared up and clarified with the addition.
So going back to the OP's post... Under English Law there is nothing written into the act which says you can appropriate property belonging to another if that person dishonestly appropriated the property in the first place - thats almost anarchistic. Theft is theft........If you steal a drug dealers TV, you are still stealing a television that belonged to HIM. If you steal some bank robbers money that they stole from the bank; they money doesnt belong to the robbers - it belongs to the bank - and if you know this they can still get you with theft....and if it is proven that you DIDNT know it was NOT their money then they can still get you with "Attempted Theft" - so you will face criminal charges no matter what.
I think you forgot something here? I believe even under English law, one must be convicted before the term guilty can be used. What a person actually does and what they can be convicted of are often two different things. If you steal something and it never gets reported, you will never be arrested and convicted of the crime.
Most criminals get a few freebies, but the lifestyle always catches up with them and once they are in the system, the next arrest usually comes along sooner than the last time,...etc. But yes, even if you only steal from other criminals you are still a thief, living a bad lifestyle.
Sadly enough its punishable by law. I once stole my bike back, got into a lot of trouble.
It seems to me that by definition you can't steal what you already own. Which is not the same as stealing from criminals.
Yeah but if stealing your own stuff back from criminals is not allowed stealing from criminals is also not allowed. We cant play our own judges apparently.(not that the mafia ever worried about that law)It seems to me that by definition you can't steal what you already own. Which is not the same as stealing from criminals.
I'm not aware of any place in the world that would call getting your own stuff back as stealing. But if you know who stole your stuff and where it is, it would be safer for you to report it, rather than attempt getting it back yourself.Yeah but if stealing your own stuff back from criminals is not allowed stealing from criminals is also not allowed. We cant play our own judges apparently.(not that the mafia ever worried about that law)It seems to me that by definition you can't steal what you already own. Which is not the same as stealing from criminals.
Well it is in Holland apparently (i lived there for a while). I was clearly told that stealing my stuff back was against the law. Even when I could prove that it was my bike. I finally got it back though and didnt get charged, but the guy who stole it didnt get anything either for some reason. Cant remember why that was, I was only 13 at that time ^-^I'm not aware of any place in the world that would call getting your own stuff back as stealing. But if you know who stole your stuff and where it is, it would be safer for you to report it, rather than attempt getting it back yourself.Yeah but if stealing your own stuff back from criminals is not allowed stealing from criminals is also not allowed. We cant play our own judges apparently.(not that the mafia ever worried about that law)It seems to me that by definition you can't steal what you already own. Which is not the same as stealing from criminals.
"With intent of permanently depriving the owner of it" appears to be the operative phrase here. Suppose you know something is stolen, but you don't know who it was stolen from? I would think that at worst your failure to seek out the original owner would be negligent intent, rather than deliberate intent.
Sort of like if you find a 50 dollar bill on the ground with no one around to claim it.
However, if the item is stolen, then the person presently in possession of it is certainly not the owner. At least they're not the legal owner, and if the law doesn't recognize their ownership then in the eyes of the law you're clearly not " permanently depriving the owner of it.", are you?
Last edited by kojax; October 12th, 2011 at 09:04 AM.
in our jurisdiction, it does not matter from whom did the person steal from, what is being punished is his intent or willingness to do the crime of theft or robbery or however it is called in some jurisdiction.
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 11:57 PM.
If you steal stolen goods, they are still stolen goods, right? :P Both legally and ethically. Unless you plan to be Robin Hood and give the said things back to the rightful owners somehow.
I can't say for sure without knowing more details. But if you were not caught in the act of steeling, and no one is complaining to the police. I'm not sure you could be charged with any wrong doing.
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 11:58 PM.
Yes, steeling is steeling unless it was stolen from you to start with. However is it more wrong to steel from a hard working citizen than a criminal? Yes it is, because the hard working citizen will make a police report and prosecute you if your caught. But the criminal will most likely not report it, so your chance of being arrested are slim to none.
But steeling from criminals can be hazardous to your health. Not a risk many would take, even if they were going to keep the money.
Returning money to criminals, I think not. If you have no way of knowing who the rightful owners of the stolen goods are. What are your options?
1. Turn them over to the police with an explanation as to how you came by them. (Not me)
2. Donate them to a charity? (That's a lot of risk and trouble to go to, just to give it away. Again not me)
3. How about just not steeling in the first place. (More to my liking)
In the case of organized crime, I would see robbing them as a public service.
If some corrupt Corporation does something illegal that causes people harm, it's not uncommon for someone to sue them. They're simultaneously deprived of the money they stole (or at least obtained through corrupt practices), and punished for their actions. The lawyer who prosecutes the case is usually entitled to a commission.
Wouldn't robbing the mafia just be a step up from that? Now it's a fully and deliberately corrupt organization, and the very incentive that motivated their criminal behavior is what they are being deprived of (their ill gotten gains.) Losing their money weakens them, and makes them more vulnerable to legitimate law enforcement (harder to bribe public officials or pay hit men to assassinate witnesses.)
Do you seriously think Mafia members would put you on trial for theft from them. Your body would be found sooner or later, if at all.
Good luck with that.
Yes, but the object of stealing is not to get caught and if criminals thought they would be caught they probably wouldn't steal in the first place. I look at it like this, if you get away with stealing you will keep doing it and sooner or later the odds are you will get caught. If caught by the police your in the system for better or worse. Once in the system and it's usually a downward spiral from then on. If caught by criminals, quality of life definitely takes a turn for the worse.
Being a thief is one of the lowest forms of human being as they usually steal from their family and friends.
Speaking of hurting the mafia, has anybody reading this read any of Don Pendleton's The Executioner series? So popular that he's written about 400 books in the series. So I guess killing hundreds of Mafia in each of his books makes him a popular.
Well, you definitely wouldn't want to bring a war to them unless you had the guns to win a war with them. And who does? You'd need an organized group working together and splitting the profits. You'd also need to kill quite a few of their people, so they respect you.
It's not impossible to take on the mafia and win, but you need a plan and you can't do it alone.
Last edited by kojax; August 15th, 2012 at 08:48 PM.
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 11:58 PM.
A crime is a crime, weather it is done with a right reason or not , weather it is done against mafia or some other criminals. Everyone is punished on earth or in HELL.
Attacking them head on is the only smart way to do it. Better form your own gang first, though.
And check with the other gangs, to see if they want to join in and share the profits with you.
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