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Thread: So I want to create a Matrix Solar system for 100,000 simulated concious beings.... Scenario and questions regarding the Technical Limits

  1. #1 So I want to create a Matrix Solar system for 100,000 simulated concious beings.... Scenario and questions regarding the Technical Limits 
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    Ok so here is what I would like to create hundreds of years in the future. (off topic point, I think I will live at least that long cause regenerative medicines may give us the ability to sustain our biological age, keeping us from growing old, this is a separate topic entirely and will not go into further detail in why this is a possibility).

    Here is what I would like to create:
    G2 type star like our sun, a habitable Earth like planet similar to the size of the Earth with similar features such as oceans, landmasses, forests and such.
    2 gas giants three times the mass of Jupiter 5 and 10 AU away from the sun like star respectively. Collectively, they will have an Earth sized moon, about 10 moons the size of titan and 50 the size of our moon. If a curious astronomer looks out into the cosmos, they will see what modern day simulations astronomers are able to see.

    Arguments against the feasibility of such technological tools argue that the processing power is beyond comprehension, for example: a typical hard drive has roughly 10^24 atoms in it, at least 100 bits of information is required just for the location for each atom. Each atom needs a label to distinguish it, there would also be about 24 figures to account for the number of them. To simulate the entire universe down to the smallest limits that we know today would require about 10^120, an unimaginable large number.

    However, Matrix style simulations may not need to simulate everything down to the sub atomic. Proponents that it is indeed feasible argue that such cyber worlds could work similar to today's MMPORGs. ONLY load matter that is being seen/touched/felt/scented ONLY to the level of complexity needed to be convincing to the human mind that it is a real thing. So in short if I were to simulate a water bottle, I would not need to simulate all the subatomic particles and individual atoms inside and on it, I can compress it just enough to give me the sense that it looks like the real thing. If I were living in outer-space in orbit around the gas giant, the entire gas giant can be simulated JUST ENOUGH to seem realistic through my eyes, but it would be extremely compressed, however while I am looking at it, there is also another simulated conscious beings on a floating city looking at the cloud tops of the gas giant, that particular part of the gas giant will not be quite as compressed.

    For my Maxtrix solarsystem, I want a human population of about 100,000. Each human will be average about same brain power as today's human beings. Although my maxtrix solar system will have animals since there will be the main habitable earth like planet and terraformed moons, only animals whom have the intelligence level of a bunny and up will have any sort of consciousness. There will be 100 million of such animals. With this in mind, the simulator will also simulate enough to give them a realistic feel of this world.
    "The most powerful systems in the world are ranked by the total number of “petaflops” they can achieve. A single petaflop is equal to 1 quadrillion calculations per second — or 1,000 trillion operations. By comparison, IBM reseachers estimated that a single human brain can process 36.8 petaflops of data."
    Respectively each human in my Matrix Solar system will have about 36.8 Quadrillion calculations per second. However, some reseachers believe that to truelly simulate the human brain, we would need to dive deeper into microtubules, which will increase that factor to 10^28. Now give that to all 100,000 beings.
    And that is just for simulating all the super human minds. As for the 100 million conscious animals, I am not sure, since animal brain power between bunnies and chimpanzees varies significantly.

    Some researchers say the maximum for quantum computing as we know is only about 10 quadrillion bits faster than the current fastest processors according to one artical. However, according to another in regards to maximum computation power. The type of system of computer in the quote below is not specified, they are discussing theoretical limits.
    "Eric Drexler has outlined a design for a system the size of a sugar cube (excluding cooling and power supply) that would perform 1021 instructions per second. Another author gives a rough estimate of 1042 operations per second for a computer with a mass on order of a large planet. (If we could create quantum computers, or learn to build computers out of nuclear matter or plasma, we could push closer to the theoretical limits. Seth Lloyd calculates an upper bound for a 1 kg computer of 5*1050 logical operations per second carried out on ~1031 bits."

    So here is my question: For a realistic cyber world, what processing power would be needed for all this? Give me a very general estimate, like 10^20 or 10^30 for example. Just to power 100 thousand human brains alone requires a stupendous level of processing power. We also have to simulate the environment of each individual being just enough for them to feel it as realistic as we would feel our world. The same are extended to the 100s million animals. I would also like to but a cap in how much physical and emotional pain anyone is allowed to experience. Because I am their God, I would put on myself the moral obligation to limit suffering when I can. The maximum pain anyone is allowed to experience should not exceed one putting their hand in 150 degree F water, stepping on a splinter, or getting a hard slap in the wrist. At any given time, ALL the worlds will always be looked at by someone from outerspace. all 360 degrees of each world. On average, citizens will spend 1/4th of their time asleep, the animals will spend the same amount of time asleep.

    My second question is if this is even possible, what kind of computer is needed? Would a quantum computer centuries in the future allow for such radical simulations?
    Does anyone have a better explanation on what is the absolute limit to quantum computing is in regards to proccessing power? and what about creating life like simulations? What could be more powerful than even quantum computing? What alternatives.

    What does it mean to be conscious and how do we CREATE consciousness this is ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL to the success of this hypothetical project. Even if processing power would meet the limit needed for such, I currently do not know if it is theoretically possible to download consciousness into an avatar or not. If I do something like that, is that avatar really me? or is it just a copy of me? Are the 100,000 beings really really conscious like us? Or are they just zombie avatars with extreme levels of intelligence.

    And do you think such technology would sooner or later be a reality in the distant future? Or Near future?

    also please point out any problems!


    Last edited by alasuya; August 16th, 2013 at 11:17 PM.
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    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Ignoring any other problems for the time being:
    Quote Originally Posted by alasuya View Post
    Each human will be average about 10 times as mental power as today's human beings.

    Since we don't even have a definition of "mental power" as yet, let alone a method of quantifying it how do you propose to do that?

    What does it mean to be conscious and how do we CREATE consciousness this is ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL to the success of this hypothetical project.

    See previous comment.

    And do you think such technology would sooner or later be a reality in the distant future? Or Near future?

    MUCH later.


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    You are right, i will just simplify the scenario by saying that the brain power of these virtual worlds would be similar to modern day humans.
    But I was talking specifically about learning ability, the ability to learn 10 times as fast as most human beings.
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    In which case you STILL have to define and quantify "brain power".
    It doesn't alleviate the problem you have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    In which case you STILL have to define and quantify "brain power".
    It doesn't alleviate the problem you have.
    By brain power I speak of everything that our brain does, from controlling sight l 86 billion neurons in the human brain, and the 100 trillion connections that link them and other things the brain does and commands.. IBM found the number to be 36.8 Petabytes, some others for this project need about a hundred petabytes of RAM.
    The $1.3B Quest to Build a Supercomputer Replica of a Human Brain - Wired Science
    Last edited by alasuya; August 16th, 2013 at 05:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alasuya View Post
    By brain power I speak of everything that our brain does, from controlling sight l 86 billion neurons in the human brain, and the 100 trillion connections that link them and other things the brain does.. IBM found the number to be 36.8 Petabytes, some others for this project need about a hundred petabytes of RAM.
    The $1.3B Quest to Build a Supercomputer Replica of a Human Brain - Wired Science
    Right.
    So we have one guy who says it can be done (and, not incidentally, ascribes our current lack of knowledge to, and I quote, "a lack of ambition").
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    sorry doubleposted
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    He's just one example out of many other scientists who believe theoretically this can be accomplished. Just linking to show you one of the sources where I get the tens of petabytes of ram needed for the human brain.
    Also you said there are other problems, please bring them up, cause I think it might be important.

    Researches don't all agree however, some believe that factor should be increased to 10^28 because of microtubules.

    He gives a beautiful lecture in regards to consciousness, watch it and tell us what you think.

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzBsEfR0iYc">

    A
    ccording to this man, a future super computer which could accommodate human consciousness might be an biological array of microtubules. In other videos he also added graphene arrays or some alternative medium.

    Watch here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d5RetvkkuQ

    A
    LSO watch the following, it's important to see the criticisms since the theory he put forth is still on the fringe.
    Last edited by alasuya; August 21st, 2013 at 02:23 AM.
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