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Thread: DIY Electrochemical Cell Experiments

  1. #1 DIY Electrochemical Cell Experiments 
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    Electrochemical conversion of gravitational force to electromotive force (electricity), affordable DIY experiments you can build from scratch and do for yourself, Google “Blogspot Gravoltaic Cell” for details.


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    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Electrochemical conversion of gravitational force to electromotive force (electricity), affordable DIY experiments you can build from scratch and do for yourself, Google “Blogspot Gravoltaic Cell” for details.
    Simply: NO.
    If you wish to discuss a topic here then present your case here.
    It is unreasonable to expect forum members to spend their time looking elsewhere.


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    Sorry, I didn't realize.
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    Gravoltaic is the newly emerging science of gravity-induced electromotive force. Gravoltaic cells are electrochemical transducers that convert gravitational force into electromotive force (electricity). Gravoltaic technology is based on U.S.Patent number 9742049 “Gravoltaic Cells” to Douglas W. Houle (me). As an emerging science, gravoltaics is a virtually unexplored area, with a lot of room for amateur scientists, enthusiasts, experimenters, innovators and inventors to develop their own ideas.

    Two electrolyte wet cell batteries use a porous barrier or a salt bridge to keep the two electrolytes separated. Gravoltaic cells utilize gravity by way of buoyancy forces to keep the two electrolytes separated. Gravoltaic cells operate by the following steps.


    Step 1--gravitational potential energy continuously enters the gravoltaic cell of the present invention from the outside world.

    Step 2--Gravitational potential energy from the outside world at step 1 acts to continuously increase the chemical species concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction that is being continuously reduced in step 6 thus continuously renewing the high chemical species concentration gradient of the first chemical species across the anode/electrolyte junction.

    For a non-limiting example the negative buoyancy embodiments of the present invention comprised of a copper anode and a copper cathode and a calcium chloride reactant electrolyte, negative buoyancy causes the less buoyant oxidized copper product cations to sink through the calcium chloride reactant electrolyte and away from the anode thus quickly removing the buildup of copper cations away from the surface of the copper anode thus increasing the concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction. By quickly removing the buildup of copper cations away from the surface of the copper anode a high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction of the gravoltaic cell of the present invention is renewed simultaneously with discharging. Thus gravitational potential energy is converted to stored mechanical potential energy in the form of a high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction.

    For a non-limiting example the positive buoyancy embodiments of the present invention comprised of an aluminum anode and an aluminum cathode and a copper chloride reactant electrolyte, positive buoyancy causes the more buoyant aluminum oxidized product cations to rise through the copper chloride reactant electrolyte and away from the anode thus quickly removing the buildup of aluminum cations away from the surface of the aluminum anode thus increasing the concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction. By quickly removing the buildup of aluminum cations away from the surface of the copper anode a high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction of the gravoltaic cell of the present invention is renewed or increased simultaneously with discharging. Thus gravitational potential energy is converted to stored mechanical potential energy in the form of a high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction.

    Step 3--Spontaneous oxidation reactions occur at the anode and spontaneous reduction reactions occur at the cathode, converting said stored mechanical potential energy of a high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction into stored electric potential energy in the form of electric potential across the output terminals of the cell.

    Step 4--said stored electric potential energy pushes electrons through the external electric load resistance; thus converting electric potential energy to the electric kinetic energy of moving electrons through the external electric load resistance.

    Step 5--the gravitational potential energy from the outside world that entered the cell at step 1 now exits the cell back to the outside world in the form of electric kinetic energy. Thus gravitational force is transduced into electromotive force across an external electric load resistance.

    Step 6--The transfer of electric energy from the cell to the external electric load resistance reduces the concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction by way of the oxidation reaction at the anode, wherein anode atoms on the surface of the anode oxidize into product cations and move preferentially from the anode side of the anode/electrolyte junction into the electrolyte side of the anode/electrolyte junction wherein the concentration of reactant cations in the electrolyte side of the anode/electrolyte junction becomes diluted with product cations. This process of diluting the concentration of reactant cations in immediate contact with the anode reduces the concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction. Therefore back to step 2 to renew the high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction.


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    Moved to Personal Theories.
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    Gravoltaic is the newly emerging science of gravity-induced electromotive force. Gravoltaic cells are electrochemical transducers that convert gravitational force into electromotive force (electricity). Gravoltaic technology is based on U.S.Patent number 9742049 “Gravoltaic Cells” to Douglas W. Houle (me). As an emerging science, gravoltaics is a virtually unexplored area, with a lot of room for amateur scientists, enthusiasts, experimenters, innovators and inventors to develop their own ideas.

    Two electrolyte wet cell batteries use a porous barrier or a salt bridge to keep the two electrolytes separated. Gravoltaic cells utilize gravity by way of buoyancy forces to keep the two electrolytes separated. Gravoltaic cells operate by the following steps.



    Step 1--gravitational potential energy continuously enters the gravoltaic cell of the present invention from the outside world.

    Step 2--Gravitational potential energy from the outside world at step 1 acts to continuously increase the chemical species concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction that is being continuously reduced in step 6 thus continuously renewing the high chemical species concentration gradient of the first chemical species across the anode/electrolyte junction.

    For a non-limiting example the negative buoyancy embodiments of the present invention comprised of a copper anode and a copper cathode and a calcium chloride reactant electrolyte, negative buoyancy causes the less buoyant oxidized copper product cations to sink through the calcium chloride reactant electrolyte and away from the anode thus quickly removing the buildup of copper cations away from the surface of the copper anode thus increasing the concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction. By quickly removing the buildup of copper cations away from the surface of the copper anode a high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction of the gravoltaic cell of the present invention is renewed simultaneously with discharging. Thus gravitational potential energy is converted to stored mechanical potential energy in the form of a high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction.

    For a non-limiting example the positive buoyancy embodiments of the present invention comprised of an aluminum anode and an aluminum cathode and a copper chloride reactant electrolyte, positive buoyancy causes the more buoyant aluminum oxidized product cations to rise through the copper chloride reactant electrolyte and away from the anode thus quickly removing the buildup of aluminum cations away from the surface of the aluminum anode thus increasing the concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction. By quickly removing the buildup of aluminum cations away from the surface of the copper anode a high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction of the gravoltaic cell of the present invention is renewed or increased simultaneously with discharging. Thus gravitational potential energy is converted to stored mechanical potential energy in the form of a high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction.

    Step 3--Spontaneous oxidation reactions occur at the anode and spontaneous reduction reactions occur at the cathode, converting said stored mechanical potential energy of a high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction into stored electric potential energy in the form of electric potential across the output terminals of the cell. Step 4--said stored electric potential energy pushes electrons through the external electric load resistance; thus converting electric potential energy to the electric kinetic energy of moving electrons through the external electric load resistance. Step 5--the gravitational potential energy from the outside world that entered the cell at step 1 now exits the cell back to the outside world in the form of electric kinetic energy. Thus gravitational force is transduced into electromotive force across an external electric load resistance. Step 6--The transfer of electric energy from the cell to the external electric load resistance reduces the concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction by way of the oxidation reaction at the anode, wherein anode atoms on the surface of the anode oxidize into product cations and move preferentially from the anode side of the anode/electrolyte junction into the electrolyte side of the anode/electrolyte junction wherein the concentration of reactant cations in the electrolyte side of the anode/electrolyte junction becomes diluted with product cations. This process of diluting the concentration of reactant cations in immediate contact with the anode reduces the concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction. Therefore back to step 2 to renew the high concentration gradient across the anode/electrolyte junction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    [COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]Gravoltaic is the newly emerging science of gravity-induced electromotive force. Gravoltaic cells are electrochemical transducers that convert gravitational force into electromotive force (electricity). Gravoltaic technology is based on U.S.Patent number 9742049 “Gravoltaic Cells” to Douglas W. Houle (me).
    That patent application number is for "Method and apparatus for monitoring calls over a session initiation protocol network"

    Your patent application numbers are US15240138 and US13986536 (you don't yet have a patent number as these are both pending, and the third is abandoned.) Also, I'm not sure why you mention this.

    Is gravity enough to overcome diffusion equalising the concentration of the species? Have you actually built one of these things or is it just hypothetical?

    Gravoltaic is the newly emerging science of gravity-induced electromotive force.
    Never a good idea to label something you have invented as a "newly emerging science". That implies that there is a community of researchers looking at it. Which isn't true.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Step 1--gravitational potential energy continuously enters the gravoltaic cell of the present invention from the outside world.
    This sentence is so vague it renders it meaningless. HOW does gravitational potential energy continuously enter the gravoltaic cell?
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    The patent is viewable at the Patent and Trademark Office Patent Database at this link.

    As disclosed in my patent, by using a buoyant electrolyte that floats on top of a less buoyant electrolyte I have been able to slow the diffusion rate from the several hours of the prior art to several days. Also check out the gravity cell at Wikipedia.

    Yes, I have built and experimented with several versions.

    Your probably right about the “newly emerging” not being a good idea, for the reason you gave.

    Thanks
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    The patent is viewable at the Patent and Trademark Office Patent Database at this link.

    As disclosed in my patent, by using a buoyant electrolyte that floats on top of a less buoyant electrolyte I have been able to slow the diffusion rate from the several hours of the prior art to several days. Also check out the gravity cell at Wikipedia.

    Yes, I have built and experimented with several versions.

    Your probably right about the “newly emerging” not being a good idea, for the reason you gave.

    Thanks
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    HOW does gravitational potential energy continuously enter the gravoltaic cell? Perhaps it is vague, but the patent examiner, a PhD, bought it. It enters the cell by being in earth's gravitational field. Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    The patent is viewable at the Patent and Trademark Office Patent Database at this link.
    Apologies. I was relying on Google's patent search. It looks like it is no longer up to date.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Is gravity enough to overcome diffusion equalizing the concentration of the species? I believe that the diffusion rate is dependent on, among other factors, the amount of electrical load current. For the old time gravity cell, the interface between the two solutions remains viable only as long as there is sufficient load current. However, if the load is removed, the load current stops and the solutions diffuse into each other. Gravoltaic cells do not yet produce enough electrical load current to test this idea. This is an area for further research. There are many technological areas that remain unexplored. Perhaps a few enthusiasts and experimenters could explore these yet unexplored areas.
    Last edited by doug68Us2; August 22nd, 2017 at 04:47 PM.
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    Plans for DIY gravoltaic experiments you can build from scratch at home and do for yourself, can be viewed at this link. I don't sell anything so please don't ask.
    Last edited by doug68Us2; August 22nd, 2017 at 04:52 PM.
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    The produced electrical energy is not extracted from a static gravitational field, but rather from the struggle between two opposing forces.

    First the transfer of electrical energy from the cell to the external electrical load causes the accumulation or buildup of dissolved anode cations to form around the working surface of the anode FORCING the displacement of fresh reactant solution away from the working surface of the anode (discharging the cell).

    Second the earth’s gravity, by way of buoyancy FORCES, pulling the accumulated dissolved anode cations away from the surface of the anode thus allowing fresh reactant solution to reconnect with the surface of the anode (recharging the cell).
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    The produced electrical energy is not extracted from a static gravitational field, but rather from the struggle between two opposing forces.

    First the transfer of electrical energy from the cell to the external electrical load causes the accumulation or buildup of dissolved anode cations to form around the working surface of the anode FORCING the displacement of fresh reactant solution away from the working surface of the anode (discharging the cell).

    Second the earth’s gravity, by way of buoyancy FORCES, pulling the accumulated dissolved anode cations away from the surface of the anode thus allowing fresh reactant solution to reconnect with the surface of the anode (recharging the cell).
    This still sounds like a perpetual motion machine to me.

    The way you make it sound, you claim electrical energy can be extracted from the cell at the same time as the cell is also doing work against gravity, by causing a gravitationally unstable density distribution to arise. If that is so, then both processes will absorb chemical energy from the cell.

    If you then turn it off and allow gravity to restore the density balance, you have only replaced the portion of the chemical energy that went into creating the density imbalance. You have not replaced the electrical energy you have extracted. So the cell will run down.
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    Your right the cells do run down. However, if you look at the graphs at the end of the patent and at the relevant patent specifications, you will notice that my claims of ‘produced electrical energy’ arise, in part, from comparing the electrical energy output of a vertical oriented test cell against the electrical energy output of a horizontally oriented control cell, which is part of the basis on which the patent was granted. I understand that this is not a perfect situation, perhaps woefully insufficient for some people, and I understand many people will point to this and other yet unresolved technical issues as proof of failure.

    I prefer to say my technology may be a one-hundredth of a step forward. My hope is that I may have cracked the door open, just a little, to the conversion of gravitational force to electromotive force. Maybe others will come along and develop much better technologies. Maybe you?

    After all, fuel cells and solar cells, from their first demonstrated proofs of concept in the mid to late 1800’s took almost a century to be developed into commercially viable technologies. Maybe is will be the same story for gravoltaic technology, maybe not. Maybe some of these issues cannot be answered today. I’m sure that much more research is needed.

    I’m sorry if this answer isn’t good enough, but my continuing research will at least keep me out of the bars. And maybe I can interest a few other people in doing their own research and coming up with better answers.

    Thanks for your interest
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    With all the references to perpetual motion, I should add that I never claimed a perpetual motion machine at all. The cells do run down. One of my goals is to make longer lasting cells, but not perpetual cells.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Your right the cells do run down. However, if you look at the graphs at the end of the patent and at the relevant patent specifications, you will notice that my claims of ‘produced electrical energy’ arise, in part, from comparing the electrical energy output of a vertical oriented test cell against the electrical energy output of a horizontally oriented control cell, which is part of the basis on which the patent was granted. I understand that this is not a perfect situation, perhaps woefully insufficient for some people, and I understand many people will point to this and other yet unresolved technical issues as proof of failure.

    I prefer to say my technology may be a one-hundredth of a step forward. My hope is that I may have cracked the door open, just a little, to the conversion of gravitational force to electromotive force. Maybe others will come along and develop much better technologies. Maybe you?

    After all, fuel cells and solar cells, from their first demonstrated proofs of concept in the mid to late 1800’s took almost a century to be developed into commercially viable technologies. Maybe is will be the same story for gravoltaic technology, maybe not. Maybe some of these issues cannot be answered today. I’m sure that much more research is needed.

    I’m sorry if this answer isn’t good enough, but my continuing research will at least keep me out of the bars. And maybe I can interest a few other people in doing their own research and coming up with better answers.

    Thanks for your interest
    To me this is not a question of improving the engineering, it is a question of simple energy balance and conservation.

    All you have within your cell is an ensemble of atoms and ions that, so you say, can be made to circulate in some way, due to a combination of density differences and electrochemical reactions. But all they do is circulate, i.e. a given atom or ion goes up and then goes down again, eventually getting back to the level at which it started, leading to zero net change in its gravitational potential. When it goes up, something is doing work on it against gravity, absorbing energy, and when it comes down, exactly that energy, no more no less, is released again. So no net work is done by gravity on anything.

    Unless gravity does work somewhere, no electrical or any other kind of energy can be extracted from it. To extract work from gravity you need to let gravity pull something down, without a corresponding rise occurring somewhere else. For example the pulleys in a weight-driven clock or the water flowing from a dam to a hydroelectric power station. If you have circulation, you have no net fall and no work is done.

    Solar cells, on the other hand always had a valid thermodynamic principle: they converted incident solar light energy into electrical energy. Ditto fuel cells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    With all the references to perpetual motion, I should add that I never claimed a perpetual motion machine at all. The cells do run down. One of my goals is to make longer lasting cells, but not perpetual cells.
    If you were to claim that you use gravity to overcome some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell, that would be fine.

    But if you claim you are harnessing gravity as an energy source to produce electricity, without any net fall in mass, you are claiming to get energy from nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    With all the references to perpetual motion, I should add that I never claimed a perpetual motion machine at all. The cells do run down. One of my goals is to make longer lasting cells, but not perpetual cells.
    If you were to claim that you use gravity to overcome some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell, that would be fine.

    But if you claim you are harnessing gravity as an energy source to produce electricity, without any net fall in mass, you are claiming to get energy from nothing.

    You're right, gravity is overcoming some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell.

    Thanks for your interest
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    With all the references to perpetual motion, I should add that I never claimed a perpetual motion machine at all. The cells do run down. One of my goals is to make longer lasting cells, but not perpetual cells.
    If you were to claim that you use gravity to overcome some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell, that would be fine.

    But if you claim you are harnessing gravity as an energy source to produce electricity, without any net fall in mass, you are claiming to get energy from nothing.

    You're right, gravity is overcoming some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell.

    Thanks for your interest
    So why do you say in your step 1 that gravitational potential energy is being continuously injected into the system? It sounded to me (as a COMPLETE novice) that system is being powered by gravity.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    With all the references to perpetual motion, I should add that I never claimed a perpetual motion machine at all. The cells do run down. One of my goals is to make longer lasting cells, but not perpetual cells.
    If you were to claim that you use gravity to overcome some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell, that would be fine.

    But if you claim you are harnessing gravity as an energy source to produce electricity, without any net fall in mass, you are claiming to get energy from nothing.

    You're right, gravity is overcoming some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell.

    Thanks for your interest
    So why do you say in your step 1 that gravitational potential energy is being continuously injected into the system? It sounded to me (as a COMPLETE novice) that system is being powered by gravity.
    Yes, that doesn't make any sense. I don't think Doug has a very clear idea of what different forms of energy are or how they are interconverted. Energy is not "stuff", it is a property of a physical system.

    He may not be able to describe his invention accurately either. When I trained for a while as a patent agent it was common to find that individual inventors did not really know what it was they had invented. Part of the job of the patent agent was to help them clarify what it actually was. In this case I am tempted to say his agent has not done a great job, but then, since he has apparently got his patent past the examiner, he could rightfully say that was the object of the enterprise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    With all the references to perpetual motion, I should add that I never claimed a perpetual motion machine at all. The cells do run down. One of my goals is to make longer lasting cells, but not perpetual cells.
    If you were to claim that you use gravity to overcome some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell, that would be fine.

    But if you claim you are harnessing gravity as an energy source to produce electricity, without any net fall in mass, you are claiming to get energy from nothing.

    You're right, gravity is overcoming some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell.

    Thanks for your interest
    So why do you say in your step 1 that gravitational potential energy is being continuously injected into the system? It sounded to me (as a COMPLETE novice) that system is being powered by gravity.
    Gravity is overcoming a concentration effect.

    The pull of gravity is continuously pulling the accumulation (concentration) of anode cations away from the surface of the anode.

    If gravity did not continuously enter the system, then the accumulation of anode cations would not be removed.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    With all the references to perpetual motion, I should add that I never claimed a perpetual motion machine at all. The cells do run down. One of my goals is to make longer lasting cells, but not perpetual cells.
    If you were to claim that you use gravity to overcome some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell, that would be fine.

    But if you claim you are harnessing gravity as an energy source to produce electricity, without any net fall in mass, you are claiming to get energy from nothing.

    You're right, gravity is overcoming some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell.

    Thanks for your interest
    So why do you say in your step 1 that gravitational potential energy is being continuously injected into the system? It sounded to me (as a COMPLETE novice) that system is being powered by gravity.
    Gravity is overcoming a concentration effect.

    The pull of gravity is continuously pulling the accumulation (concentration) of anode cations away from the surface of the anode.

    If gravity did not continuously enter the system, then the accumulation of anode cations would not be removed.
    Yes I think the problem comes from thinking of it as gravity "entering" the system, as if it was some sort of stuff.

    What you are really saying is that the arrangement of the cell is such that the density differences that would otherwise build up near the electrodes as the cell operates, are prevented from doing so by gravity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    With all the references to perpetual motion, I should add that I never claimed a perpetual motion machine at all. The cells do run down. One of my goals is to make longer lasting cells, but not perpetual cells.
    If you were to claim that you use gravity to overcome some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell, that would be fine.

    But if you claim you are harnessing gravity as an energy source to produce electricity, without any net fall in mass, you are claiming to get energy from nothing.

    You're right, gravity is overcoming some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell.

    Thanks for your interest
    So why do you say in your step 1 that gravitational potential energy is being continuously injected into the system? It sounded to me (as a COMPLETE novice) that system is being powered by gravity.
    Yes, that doesn't make any sense. I don't think Doug has a very clear idea of what different forms of energy are or how they are interconverted. Energy is not "stuff", it is a property of a physical system.

    He may not be able to describe his invention accurately either. When I trained for a while as a patent agent it was common to find that individual inventors did not really know what it was they had invented. Part of the job of the patent agent was to help them clarify what it actually was. In this case I am tempted to say his agent has not done a great job, but then, since he has apparently got his patent past the examiner, he could rightfully say that was the object of the enterprise.
    Since I am an amateur basement experimenter, it may be true that I am not able to describe my invention beyond that of an amateur’s understanding. My current thoughts are of an amateur group effort towards building a better understanding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    With all the references to perpetual motion, I should add that I never claimed a perpetual motion machine at all. The cells do run down. One of my goals is to make longer lasting cells, but not perpetual cells.
    If you were to claim that you use gravity to overcome some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell, that would be fine.

    But if you claim you are harnessing gravity as an energy source to produce electricity, without any net fall in mass, you are claiming to get energy from nothing.

    You're right, gravity is overcoming some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell.

    Thanks for your interest
    So why do you say in your step 1 that gravitational potential energy is being continuously injected into the system? It sounded to me (as a COMPLETE novice) that system is being powered by gravity.
    Gravity is overcoming a concentration effect.

    The pull of gravity is continuously pulling the accumulation (concentration) of anode cations away from the surface of the anode.

    If gravity did not continuously enter the system, then the accumulation of anode cations would not be removed.
    Yes I think the problem comes from thinking of it as gravity "entering" the system, as if it was some sort of stuff.

    What you are really saying is that the arrangement of the cell is such that the density differences that would otherwise build up near the electrodes as the cell operates, are prevented from doing so by gravity.
    Yes that' it exactly!
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    The arrangement of the cell is such that the accumulation of oxidation products at the anode that would otherwise build up as the cell operates is prevented from doing so by gravity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post
    With all the references to perpetual motion, I should add that I never claimed a perpetual motion machine at all. The cells do run down. One of my goals is to make longer lasting cells, but not perpetual cells.
    If you were to claim that you use gravity to overcome some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell, that would be fine.

    But if you claim you are harnessing gravity as an energy source to produce electricity, without any net fall in mass, you are claiming to get energy from nothing.

    You're right, gravity is overcoming some of the the concentration effects that shorten the useful life of a cell.

    Thanks for your interest
    So why do you say in your step 1 that gravitational potential energy is being continuously injected into the system? It sounded to me (as a COMPLETE novice) that system is being powered by gravity.
    Gravity is overcoming a concentration effect.

    The pull of gravity is continuously pulling the accumulation (concentration) of anode cations away from the surface of the anode.

    If gravity did not continuously enter the system, then the accumulation of anode cations would not be removed.
    Yes I think the problem comes from thinking of it as gravity "entering" the system, as if it was some sort of stuff.

    What you are really saying is that the arrangement of the cell is such that the density differences that would otherwise build up near the electrodes as the cell operates, are prevented from doing so by gravity.
    Yes that' it exactly!
    The arrangement of the cell is such that the accumulation of oxidation products at the anode that would otherwise build up as the cell operates is prevented from doing so by gravity.
    Thank you for that great insight.
    I appreciate any help I can get.
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post

    Yes that' it exactly!

    The arrangement of the cell is such that the accumulation of oxidation products at the anode that would otherwise build up as the cell operates is prevented from doing so by gravity.
    Thank you for that great insight.
    I appreciate any help I can get.
    Well that's good then. I can certainly buy that as a useful contribution to electrochemical cell design!

    But I think I'd steer clear of descriptions in terms of gravitational energy etc. It's not needed to describe what you have done, as we can see in the clear description above, and it will inevitably lead people to suspect you may be a perpetual motion crank!
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doug68Us2 View Post

    Yes that' it exactly!

    The arrangement of the cell is such that the accumulation of oxidation products at the anode that would otherwise build up as the cell operates is prevented from doing so by gravity.
    Thank you for that great insight.
    I appreciate any help I can get.
    Well that's good then. I can certainly buy that as a useful contribution to electrochemical cell design!

    But I think I'd steer clear of descriptions in terms of gravitational energy etc. It's not needed to describe what you have done, as we can see in the clear description above, and it will inevitably lead people to suspect you may be a perpetual motion crank!
    Thanks I’ll take your advice to heart.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Now the "gravity" part is cleared up... moved back to Chemistry.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Well that's good then. I can certainly buy that as a useful contribution to electrochemical cell design!
    As Douglas has noted elsewhere, it is not a new idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniell_cell#Gravity_cell

    Was the patent examiner made aware of this prior art?
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Well that's good then. I can certainly buy that as a useful contribution to electrochemical cell design!
    As Douglas has noted elsewhere, it is not a new idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniell_cell#Gravity_cell

    Was the patent examiner made aware of this prior art?
    Ye, this prior art is disclosed in both the application and the patent.
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Now the "gravity" part is cleared up... moved back to Chemistry.
    Thanks for doing that, Dywyddyr. (....as the "Like" button doesn't work....)
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