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Thread: What is created if you mix water (H2O) and ozone (O3)?

  1. #1 What is created if you mix water (H2O) and ozone (O3)? 
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    Hello!

    I work in the insurance restoration industry. I deal with floods, fires, etc. all day, every day. With all the latest state-of-the-art equipment in our industry a lot of science is now used/required. We utilize ultrasonics, machines that clean & disinfect soft goods hydraulically instead of mechanically and generators that alter the chemistry of smoke residue/soot on the molecular level.

    One thing we use quite frequently is an ozone generator. The generator we have is a pretty strong unit and is designed for large areas, however we're using it in an 800 cubic foot chamber. Since we're dealing with content affected by water quite regularly, my question is; what would happen (chemically) if I place a fully saturated piece of content (say a book for example) in out ozone chamber and run it. What does H2O + O3 make?

    I would like to get an answer once and for all! Some of my colleagues say it creates hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). Some say it creates trioxidane or "dihydrogen trioxide" (H2O3 - what the heck is that?), etc., etc.

    Thanks in advance!


    Justin


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  3. #2  
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    H2O3 is unstable and after about 15 minutes will mostly decompose into H2O+O.

    H2O + O3, if you could combine completely, would make H2O4, but that would decompose almost instantly into 2 H2O +O2


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    Off the top of my head I would say you would get ozone dissolved in water. Ozone doesn't react with water in the gas phase and I'd be surprised if there was much of a reaction in the liquid (although you may get some short lived OH and HO2 radicals). In fact it is used to purify water by oxidising impurities but leaves the water drinkable.
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  5. #4  
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    Dan, by what mechanism are you proposing the formation of H2O3 and H2O4? Doesn't look likely to me as you'd have to break an O-H bond insert oxygen atoms from the ozone and reform an O-H bond...
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Dan, by what mechanism are you proposing the formation of H2O3 and H2O4? Doesn't look likely to me as you'd have to break an O-H bond insert oxygen atoms from the ozone and reform an O-H bond...
    I don't really know much about the chemistry myself but somebody told me about hydrogen polyoxides once and it stuck in the back of my memory.
    Trioxidane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Trioxidane, hydrogen trioxide or dihydrogen trioxide is an unstable molecule with the formula H2O3 or HOOOH. It is one of the hydrogen polyoxides. In aqueous solutions, trioxidane decomposes to form water and singlet oxygen:

    The reverse reaction, the addition of singlet oxygen to water, typically does not occur in part due to the scarcity of singlet oxygen. In biological systems, however, ozone is known to be generated from singlet oxygen, and the presumed mechanism is an antibody-catalyzed production of trioxidane from singlet oxygen.[1]

    Preparation[edit]

    Trioxidane can be obtained in small, but detectable, amounts in reactions of ozone and hydrogen peroxide, or by theelectrical dissociation of water. Larger quantities have been prepared by the reaction of ozone with organic reducing agents at low temperatures in a variety of organic solvents such as the Anthraquinone process, and it is also formed during the decomposition of organic hydrotrioxides (ROOOH).[2]
    The reaction of ozone with hydrogen peroxide is known as the "Peroxone process". This mixture has been used for some time for treating groundwater contaminated with organic compounds. The reaction produces H2O3 and H2O5.[3]
    Structure[edit]

    Spectroscopic analysis has shown the molecule to have a skewed linear structure H-O-O-O-H, with the O-O bond length being shorter than that in hydrogen peroxide. Various dimeric and trimeric forms also seem to exist. It is slightly more acidic than hydrogen peroxide, dissociating into H+ and OOOH-.[4]
    Reactions[edit]

    Trioxidane readily decomposes into water and singlet oxygen, with a half-life of about 16 minutes in organic solvents at room temperature, but only milliseconds in water. It reacts with organic sulfides to form sulfoxides, but little else is known of its reactivity.
    Recent research found that trioxidane is the active ingredient responsible for the antimicrobial properties of the well known ozone / hydrogen peroxide mix. Because these two compounds are present in biological systems as well it is argued that an antibody in the human body can generate trioxidane as a powerful oxidant against invading bacteria.[1][5] The source of the compound in biological systems is the reaction between singlet oxygen and water (which proceeds in either direction, of course, according to concentrations), with the singlet oxygen being produced by immune cells.[2][6]
    In 2005, trioxidane was observed experimentally by microwave spectroscopy in a supersonic jet. The molecule exists in a trans conformation with oxygen-oxygen bond lengths of 142.8 picometer compared to 146.4 picometer for hydrogen peroxide. Computational chemistry predicts that more oxygen chain molecules or hydrogen polyoxides exist and that even infinite oxygen chains can exist in a low temperature gas. With this spectroscopic evidence a search for these type of molecules can start in interstellar space.[4]
    The trioxidane page is much better than the hydrogen polyoxide page but since it is free I can offer both for the same price.
    Hydrogen polyoxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Edit: I agree that the most likely result would simply be water with a high level of dissolved oxygen in it if you were just mixing the ozone into the water, but I would expect at least some peroxides to form too.
    Last edited by dan hunter; May 20th, 2014 at 09:26 PM.
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    So could bleaching or discolouration be possible if, for instance, wet clothing was put into the chamber with a high level of ozone being introduced?

    Edit: In regards to the potential of a peroxide being formed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinLG View Post
    Hello!




    Some of my colleagues say it creates hydrogen peroxide (H2O2).



    Justin
    They are wrong. Ozone acts as a reducing agent on hydrogen peroxide.

    H2O2 + O3 = H2O + 2O2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warron View Post
    They are wrong. Ozone acts as a reducing agent on hydrogen peroxide.

    H2O2 + O3 = H2O + 2O2
    But is that only if the hydrogen peroxide already exists? Or is it not possible for it to be created out water and ozone because of the reducing action? Could it still be created, albeit briefly, then be reduced to straight water "high in dissolved oxygen"?

    Forgive my ignorance!
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    OK. I've done a bit of casual googling. Apparently ozone is often used to get rid of the odours - of smoke and of moulds - but the recommendations I've so far read through are a bit unhappy. Ozone's definitely a hazard to human health so it shouldn't be used in households to get rid of the smell of mould after a flood for instance. And they say that dry cleaners who use ozone to get rid of smoke smell from clothing and other items are generally unsuccessful.

    This item is about what to do and not do if you are responsible for cleaning up valuable museum type stuff after a fire. I've bolded the warning. Fire & Smoke Damage | Museum Disasters | Archaeology Salvage | Chicora Foundation

    Ozone treatments use ozone generators to create large quantities of ozone (O3) — a very powerful oxidizer that attacks virtually all organic materials. When humans are exposed to ozone it causes irritation of lungs, eyes, and skin. When collections are exposed to ozone it will deteriorate leather, alter dyes, embrittle paper, and fade inks. In other words, it prematurely ages virtually everything in collections. Consequently, it, too, should never be used as a means of eliminating the smoke odor.
    So I suppose it's OK, if not entirely wonderful, for household items that a householder wants to keep and that an insurance company doesn't want to replace.

    Getting back to the OP, I wouldn't put a soaking wet book under this kind of treatment. I suspect that putting the book into something like a big box of rice to absorb as much of the dampness as possible would be the first step - or whatever parallel techniques the industry has come up with for extracting moisture without harming wet items. Then when you can see how the inks and paper have fared after that treatment, you can judge whether it is or isn't worth the risk of fading or otherwise wrecking the inks and /or making the paper too brittle for the book to be usable.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    @Dan, interesting, I hadn't come across these much before and didn't think if them. I think the concentrations of them formed in the conditions of the OP would be vanishly small (tecnical term for close to bugger all). I have actually done some experiments reacting ozone with aqueous aerosol particles containing dissolved organics, from the spectroscopic signatures the organics are oxidised the water isn't (and these techniques are pretty sensitive). I know the hazards of upscaling what happens in micron sized particles to bulk liquids but I'm pretty sure it's a non-starter. I think adelady has it right though, get rid of the water first and then decide whether the risk of ozone on the dry stuff is worth taking...
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  12. #11  
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    @PhDemon. I think you are right, like I said it was just something somebody told me once and it stuck a bit, but I don't have any deep understanding of it.
    The Wiki article seems to say they make such molecules by starting off with peroxide.
    I was thus a bit surprised when Warren said O3 would reduce (oxidize?) peroxide to water and free oxygen.
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  13. #12  
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    The peroxide decomposition by ozone is thermodynamically favourable as you are generating gas (2 moles of O2 from one mole of ozone), large entropy increase. O2 and H2O are also lower in energy than H2O2 and ozone so enthalpy drives it too. These trioxidanes are probably intermediates that have a low (but detectable) steady-state concentration due to kinetic effects.
    Last edited by PhDemon; May 21st, 2014 at 03:47 AM. Reason: clarity
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    The reaction to form hydrogen peroxide is not favoured in terms of the thermodynamics. That is to say, the Gibbs Free Energy change would be positive, so that the reaction would not happen spontaneously. It would require some form of energy input to make it occur.
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  15. #14  
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    Exactly, for the reasons I gave in the post above...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Exactly, for the reasons I gave in the post above...
    Yes, sorry, I composed that without catching up with the latest posts in the thread. I was responding to post#8. And I was doing a little bit of checking on the GFE numbers (one online calculator was giving crazy results)
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    No problem, I thought my post wasn't clear and you were responding to me, I've edited the first sentence to make it clear what I was talking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    So I suppose it's OK, if not entirely wonderful, for household items that a householder wants to keep and that an insurance company doesn't want to replace.

    Getting back to the OP, I wouldn't put a soaking wet book under this kind of treatment. I suspect that putting the book into something like a big box of rice to absorb as much of the dampness as possible would be the first step - or whatever parallel techniques the industry has come up with for extracting moisture without harming wet items. Then when you can see how the inks and paper have fared after that treatment, you can judge whether it is or isn't worth the risk of fading or otherwise wrecking the inks and /or making the paper too brittle for the book to be usable.
    We haven't had an issue with it deteriorating leathers, papers or inks as of yet and we've been utilizing an ozone generator for both deodourization and disinfection for over 10 years now. The only real issue we've run into is decomposition of natural rubbers. For example, if you put a regular elastic band in our ozone chamber and run it for 12 hours, the elastic will become dry/brittle and essentially crumble into pieces. I'm trying to think of other adverse reactions but I do not recall any. In regards to the efficacy of ozone as a deodourizer, it's hit and miss. Some materials react great. For example, wood furniture that still has a slight smoke odour after cleaning, musty smelling paperwork that has been dried and has had the mould physically removed from it first (we brush the mould off over a down-draft table hooked up to a HEPA filter under negative pressure), etc. Actually, I do remember a silver tea set being put through an ozone application after cleaning as it still had a minor odour, but the set came out with a gold-yellow kind of tint. We were able to use our specialized cleaner and remove it luckily. I'm not sure if it reacted to the silver itself or a layer of residue from being cleaned prior.

    In regards to books, etc., we always dry them out before applying an ozone treatment. I was just trying to give some examples, like if a book was prematurely removed from our drying chamber by an inexperienced technician and put into the ozone chamber still wet. We actually have a proprietary piece of equipment called a Thermal Vacuum Freeze Dryer that uses a mixture of -50 degree and +40 degree temperatures (Celsius) in a vacuum chamber at 0 torr. It utilizes sublimation to take a banker box full of frozen documents for example and dry it completely without ever going back to a liquid stage. We would generally dry out any documents and books in this unit before applying ozone. It holds almost 300 banker boxes and takes 3-4 weeks to complete it's cycle.

    Ozone as disinfectant has also been hit and miss. Being in insurance claims we also deal with a lot of Category 3 water losses (a.k.a. "black water"). We have an ATP (adenosine triphosphate) tester to check bacteria levels (measured in Relative Light Units). We have swabbed sewage affected items before and after ozoning and some items become sanitized, some items levels actually increase.

    There's actually a "newer" product used in our industry used to "kill odours and disinfect". I'm not here to market for them but a pretty in-depth description of how it works is below:

    "Company Name" is a high performance air and surface decontamination system designed to safely eradicate biocontaminants, volatile organic compounds, and
    off-gassing odours within any unoccupied zone or building. The system combines the latest in airborne and surface contamination destruction technology in one portable unit to produce unparalleled decontamination and restoration capabilities on-site. The process is low-temperature, residue-free, and offers excellent material capability (including sensitive electronics).

    The "Company Name" process employs proven technology called photocatalytic oxidation (PCO) in a five-stage process to produce simultaneous, interrelated forms of oxidation to eradicate airborne organic contaminants. These vapour compounds are unsurpassed in field applications for their penetrating oxidative power to remove virtually any embedded or persistent odour.

    1. Germicidal UV Radiation
    Air comes into the bottom rear of the unit. High intensity germicidal irradiation is lethal to incoming airborne microorganisms, creating peptide bonds within their DNA, preventing them from further replication. All other slices of the UV Band are used as well.

    2. Powerful Singlet Oxygen and Oxyradical Plasma
    A dense cloud of powerful molecular oxidizers attack bio-particles and rapidly begin breaking the carbon bonds that form their cellular matter. Approximately 70% of the systems energy goes into creating this powerful sterilizing plasma gas, which includes singlet oxygen, superoxide, hydrogen peroxide and three oxyradicals: hydroxyl radicals, the atomic oxygen radical, and hydro peroxide radicals. These agents remain in the chamber.

    3. Concentrated O3, H2 O2
    Purified trivalent oxygen, called ozone, is produced which contributes to oxidization within the chamber and production of more oxyradicals. Bulk ozone and hydrogen peroxide molecules leave the top of the unit to continue their work outside the chamber for another 30-45 minutes before decaying harmlessly back to the natural elements from which they were made.

    4. Photocatalytic Production of Hydroxyl Radicals
    Special nanoparticles coated on the entire inner chamber wall undergo a photocatalytic reaction driven by the UV energy field. They convert water vapour in the air or feed gas into more hydroxyl radicals projecting from the entire inner surface. The new oxyradicals break up passing organic matter and generate more oxyradicals from the O3 concentration present.

    5. HEPA Filtration, Optional Supplemental Feed Gas


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    I was thinking of mentioning rubber. Ozone is very destructive of rubber, particularly when it is under tension. It is a problem with conveyor belts, particularly in coastal locations. Ozone resistance testing is a standard test in conveyor belt labs.

    Interesting that they say that they have ozone and hydrogen peroxide together. Perhaps the reaction kinetics are slow, but I would have thought that these two would mutually self destruct quite quickly.

    Plasma gas?

    The freeze dryer sounds ideal for document recovery. I was thinking that normal drying would lead to adhesion between pages.


    Sounds like you have some pretty good technology happening.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warron View Post
    It is a problem with conveyor belts, particularly in coastal locations.
    Why is this? Ozone production in the troposphere/boundary layer is predominantly due to NO2 photolysis and photochemistry why would being near the coast affect this?
    Last edited by PhDemon; May 21st, 2014 at 11:26 AM. Reason: typo
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Warron View Post
    It is a problem with conveyor belts, particularly in coastal locations.
    Why is this? Ozone production in the troposphere/boundary layer is predominantly due to NO2 photolysis and photochemistry why would being near the coast affect this?
    I don't really know why, but ozone concentrations in coastal regions are higher than inland.

    Surface Ozone in the Marine Environment
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    "Radicals", "moles", etc. is terminology unfamiliar to me lol.

    Have we determined that the answer to the original question is a no? Hydrogen Peroxide is not created when mixing H2O + O3? Is it even a possibility when mixing those two chemical equations together for H2O2 to form?
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  23. #22  
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    don't really know why, but ozone concentrations in coastal regions are higher than inland.

    Surface Ozone in the Marine Environment
    Thanks for the link I'll download the full article at work tomorrow.
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    I've had a quick look at the paper (in my coffee break so I only skimmed it, but it is quite short) and they seem to put it down to differences in vertical mixing and different deposition rates due to the different surface types, but the effect is quite small -- a difference between average ozone concentrations of 36 ppbv at the coast and ~32 ppbv 30 km inland -- with no error bars on the measurements so the variability at each site is hard to determine -- the only data they give on ozone variability are biweekly measurements -- with no error bars that range from ~23-39 ppbv at the coast and ~20-34 ppbv inland. The stated effect (while being statistically significant for long averaging periods) is small compared to the short time scale ozone variability during the day (one of their figures shows a diurnal variation covering the range 25-40 ppbv) so I'm not convinced the difference is large enough to cause rubber degradation to be significantly different in coastal areas compared to inland ones on the basis of this paper...
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    Thanks for taking the time to look at it. It seems that the 'ozone by the sea' concept is an old Victorian myth. It is a long time since I worked with conveyor belts. Before there was an internet, though not in Victorian times
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  26. #25  
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    Yeah, the smell of "ozone" at the coast is predominantly DMS not ozone...

    Ozone Smell at the Seaside News in Science (ABC Science)

    (I used to work in the same deaprtment as Andrew Johnston at UEA -- happy days)
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