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Thread: Salted Water & Freezing

  1. #1 Salted Water & Freezing 
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    was wondering if salted water was -10 degree celcius and we remove the salt from the water would it freeze instantly?
    common sense says it would freeze instantly but i still need to make sure


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  3. #2  
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    How do you propose to instantly remove the salt from the freezing water?


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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    How do you propose to instantly remove the salt from the freezing water?
    i am not, i am just asking if the water would freeze instantly after the salt is removed and i do not intend doing anything just curious on what would happend
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Painter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    How do you propose to instantly remove the salt from the freezing water?
    i am not, i am just asking if the water would freeze instantly after the salt is removed and i do not intend doing anything just curious on what would happend
    This question is a bit like asking whether you would fall if you were on the fourth floor of a building, and someone suddenly took the building away.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Painter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    How do you propose to instantly remove the salt from the freezing water?
    i am not, i am just asking if the water would freeze instantly after the salt is removed and i do not intend doing anything just curious on what would happend
    This question is a bit like asking whether you would fall if you were on the fourth floor of a building, and someone suddenly took the building away.
    yeah i know but i am not really looking for c oncrete answer just what you think would happend, in common sense it would freeze instantly right?
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  7. #6  
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    And if we said "yes, it would freeze", in what way would that help you?
    There are no paradoxes in relativity, just people's misunderstandings of it.
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  8. #7  
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    If you did it carefully enough the water would stay as a supercooled liquid if no nucleation sites are present.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    If you did it carefully enough the water would stay as a supercooled liquid if no nucleation sites are present.
    Yes, using my building analogy, as in all the cartoons, you'd be fine so long as you didn't look down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    If you did it carefully enough the water would stay as a supercooled liquid if no nucleation sites are present.
    I agree. If you would take away the salt, it would even cool down further, but it wouldn't freeze, unless it had some way of forming crystals. I wonder what would happen if you would take away the water instantly, would the salt form crystals, or wouldn't it. Say you kept the same dispersion, and you had ions, would NaCl (or any other small salt) form, or would Na solidify, and Cl2 simply turn into a gas? Or would a light form of a crystal form?
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  11. #10  
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    Based on what I know about supercooled liquids/solutions in trapped aerosol particles it may undergo a transition to an amorphous glassy state. (This certainly happens with sucrose but has not been observed with NaCl under our experimental conditions).
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJW View Post
    And if we said "yes, it would freeze", in what way would that help you?
    It would settle my curiosity, and I did get an answer
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  13. #12  
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    The OP doesn't specify that the salt be removed instantly. I am thinking that you could reduce the salt by placing the sample in a dialysis bag inside a solution of say glycol at -10 degrees.

    Anyone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    If you did it carefully enough the water would stay as a supercooled liquid if no nucleation sites are present.
    Interestingly and fun a lot of folks can see this at home if they freeze bottled water. Often times, it can be liquid at well below until given a good shake or opened and crystallize in a matter of seconds. Not surprisingly folks have videod the effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpiUZI_3o8s
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  15. #14  
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    I have seen spring water bubble up from a brook in sub-zero temps, without a hint of freezing, except on the edges where the flow gets hampered. So perhaps if you forced the saline through an RO filter to remove the salt and, were able to maintain a good state of agitation, do you think it would spontaneously freeze?
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  16. #15  
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    I think you can figure this out experimentally. Just add a couple chemicals that instantly bond to sodium and chloride ions that are insoluble in water. My guess is it would immediately freeze upon the formation of precipitate.

    Edit: Actually, neither the chemical reactions nor the state change would be "instant", it would just be extremely rapid. Nothing can move faster than the speed of light, and that includes bonding atoms. As for the state change, it would be limited by the formation rate of the precipitate.
    Last edited by Chimoshi; May 25th, 2014 at 09:09 PM.
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    Of course it would freeze as soon as the precipitate is formed, (c permitting ) if it is below the freezing point all that is needed is something to initiate nucleation, precipitates are VERY good at this. Once nucleation has started the formation rate of the precipitate is irrelevant, the ice that is formed is also an excellent nucleation initiator and so freezing will behave like a chain reaction throughout the liquid. PS I'm struggling to think of an insoluble sodium salt that would precipitate out, do you know of any?
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  18. #17  
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    Not off the top of my head, but a quick Google search has the answer. sodium bismuthate (NaBiO3), sodium octamolybdate (Na2Mo8O25·4H2O), sodium thioplatinate (Na4Pt3S6), and sodium uranate (Na2UO4).

    This thread has my imagination going wild! imagine if you had a water hose that shot salt water out, and at the end of it you attached another jet that mixed it with the binding molecules. That would make for some very interesting ice sculpting.
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  19. #18  
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    If you used the uranate (no puns taking the piss please1) it would glow in the dark too


    1. Except this one...
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  20. #19  
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    Interesting topic, I had to go look up why salt changes the freezing temperature of water and it's not only salt that works that way with water. Any new substance that will dissolve in water will change the freezing point of water to some extent.

    Salt and the Freezing Point of Water .....................................
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