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  1. #1 Aluminum foil 
    Universalis Infinitis Devon Keogh's Avatar
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    I had a vinegar-salt solution and I poured it on to a piece of aluminum foil. After collecting the left over vinegar-salt solution I was left with the degraded aluminium foil. It had dark black holes where the acid had bore through it. I riped off the area around these holes and collected the dust onto a container.

    My question is, what is the dust? Has any chemical change taken place?

    PS: Malt vinegar and table salt.



    "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
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    In my own opinion there is no greater mathematical Principle than that which is x - x = 0. This shows that matter can be created from nothing as long as the total product of the matter's mass & energy equal exactly zero.
    The only question is, "Where did all that antimatter go?"

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    I would think aluminum hydroxide... I could be wrong. I am not a chemist.


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    I agree definitely aluminum acetate unless there was something else it was exposed to that you are unaware of. The table salt should have no effect and I imagine H2 was released in the process as well
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    This is interesting because aluminum containers are used to contain acetic acid. Aluminum is passive resistant to the acid. Maybe one of you chemist types can clear this one up.
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    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    I'm no chemist but I use minimal foil in cooking and this article may see me using it even less in future.

    Food cooked in aluminium foil can contain more than six times the safe level of the metal, a UAE study has found.
    At high doses, the metal can accumulate in the bones and brain. Aluminium absorption into the body has been linked with Alzheimer's and osteoporosis.
    The pair have investigated foil from China, India and Egypt, publishing four papers on their work. The most recent, in May's International Journal of Electrochemical Science, concluded that aluminium foil should be used only for packing, not cooking.
    "To the naked eye, it looks fine, but under the microscope you see a big difference. The higher the temperature, the more the leaching. Foil is not suitable for cooking and is not suitable for using with vegetables like tomatoes, citrus juice or spices."
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    I don't know about osteoporosis, but there is no evidence of a link to Alzheimer's. I am therefore sceptical about the rest of that article. Aluminium is generally resistant to attack by acids because it forms a tough oxide layer.

    Very low levels of many metals are present in the brain. Aluminium is a toxic metal that is common in our everyday environment. Small amounts of it are found in water and food. Although initial studies linked aluminium toxicity with Alzheimer's disease, the link has not been proven despite continuing investigation. Importantly, there is no evidence to suggest that aluminium exposure increases your risk of dementia.
    Am I at risk of developing dementia? - Alzheimer's Society

    And apparently not to osteporosis, either:
    In this study we have not been able to show any significant association between the aluminium content in bone and the degree of BMD, BMC or bone size of the proximal femur measured using DXA. Thus, our study does not support the hypothesis that aluminium is involved in the pathogenesis of osteoporosis.
    BMC Musculoskeletal Disorders | Full text | No association between the aluminium content of trabecular bone and bone density, mass or size of the proximal femur in elderly men and women

    The search result after that claimed that there was a connection to both, but was from david "don't call me crazy" icke .com. The types of sites promoting the link generally seemed to be of a similarly level of reliability (e.g. The Daily Mail).
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  8. #7  
    Forum Sophomore Phlogistician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    I'm no chemist but I use minimal foil in cooking and this article may see me using it even less in future.


    From memory I think it was postulated that Aluminium doesn't cause Alzheimer's, but sufferers show elevated levels as a symptom?
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    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Regardless of any link to Alzheimer's or Osteoporosis, I have observed pitting in aliminum foil when it is used in cooking or comes in contact with acidic/salty foods and I personally do not want metal of any kind leeching into my food. I first noticed this years ago when I had covered a spice cake with foil and even though it was not in contact with the cake, very fine pin holes formed in the foil and there were dark spots on the cake. Eww. I don't think so... Nutmeg, cinnamon and cloves were in the cake.

    The following short article references a study that demonstrates the amount of increase of leeched aluminum in certain foods.

    Cooking with aluminum foil can have serious health risks, according to a new UAE study.
    Scientists from the American University of Sharjah (AUS) and the Abu Dhabi Petroleum Institute warned that wrapping spicy foods in aluminium is particularly dangerous.
    Researchers from the Chemical Engineering Department of AUS and the institute concluded that it is safe to wrap sandwiches and other cold foods in aluminium foil but said it should not be used for cooking.

    In the experiment, the researchers bought aluminium foil from various shops in the UAE. They cooked enough minced meat for a family of three using six different flavourings, including tomato juice, citric acid, apple vinegar, salt and spices.
    They found that the experiments “clearly indicate” the foil is absorbed into the food and “the amount of leaching was found to be high in acidy foods, and even higher when spices are used”.
    The experiment also found that higher oven or boiling temperatures add to the contamination but found no significant difference if the food is in contact with the shiny or dull side of the aluminium foil.
    The research team published microscopic photographs of foil after it had been used for cooking food at 185C for 90 minutes. The photos clearly show the damage to the foil caused by leaching of the aluminium into the food.
    The researchers added that other international experiments found that aluminium leached into bones and the thyroid. Significant quantities of aluminium were also found in the brains of people suffering from Alzheimer’s.
    Lead researcher Ghada Bassioni told 7DAYS that cooking with aluminium can be linked to Alzheimer’s, anaemia and other illnesses.
    Dr Thomas Kunt, chair of medicine at Abu Dhabi’s newly opened Burjeel Hospital, has researched Alzheimer’s disease and said that aluminium appears to accumulate in bones and in the central nervous system.
    He said that scientists know from examples in Africa that cheap aluminium pots can leach and said that while evidence of harm is not conclusive, aluminium in cooking is very tightly controlled in the west.
    He added that there was evidence that it can accumulate in diabetics and others who cannot filter toxins from the kidney. Autopsies on people who’d had Alzheimer’s also found a build up of aluminium in their brain lesions, he said.
    WHAT'S THE DAMAGE
    >> Factors that will increase the amount of aluminium found in food?
    Time spent in oven
    Oven temperature
    Acidity and salt content of food
    Meat fat content of food (Aluminium is absorbed faster into fat)
    >>Increase in aluminium absorption depending on oven temperature:
    Red meat: 89 to 378 per cent increase
    Poultry: 76 to 215 per cent
    UAE Study Unwraps Health Scare; Cooking with Aluminum Foil May Cause Alzheimer's | Al Bawaba

    I am well aware that there are ever conflicting views on the topic of food and nutrition and that conclusive evidence remains elusive in many cases yet there are enough disturbing links to warrant further examination on many fronts. Funding can be difficult to procure because money and industry are involved and no industry is going to fund research that may challenge it's market share.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Regardless of any link to Alzheimer's or Osteoporosis, I have observed pitting in aliminum foil when it is used in cooking or comes in contact with acidic/salty foods and I personally do not want metal of any kind leeching into my food. I first noticed this years ago when I had covered a spice cake with foil and even though it was not in contact with the cake, very fine pin holes formed in the foil and there were dark spots on the cake. Eww. I don't think so... Nutmeg, cinnamon and cloves were in the cake.
    I noticed the same in aluminum cookware and also stopped using it. Eventually...
    I figured better safe than sorry, at the time.
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  11. #10  
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    Aluminum compounds are generally non poisonous and biologicly neutral.
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  12. #11  
    Universalis Infinitis Devon Keogh's Avatar
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    The aluminium "dust" is tarnished so I would think it was oxidized to a certain extent.

    P.S. The Table salt acts as a catalyst. You can see this by putting vinegar on a tarnished coin, then getting another coin, mixing salt and vinegar and putting it on the other coin. The salt and vinegar solution will dissolve the copper oxide quicker.

    "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
    Sir Isaac Newton

    In my own opinion there is no greater mathematical Principle than that which is x - x = 0. This shows that matter can be created from nothing as long as the total product of the matter's mass & energy equal exactly zero.
    The only question is, "Where did all that antimatter go?"

    Favourite Elements: Sodium, Neodymium, Xenon
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  13. #12  
    Universalis Infinitis Devon Keogh's Avatar
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    Sorry, double post

    "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
    Sir Isaac Newton

    In my own opinion there is no greater mathematical Principle than that which is x - x = 0. This shows that matter can be created from nothing as long as the total product of the matter's mass & energy equal exactly zero.
    The only question is, "Where did all that antimatter go?"

    Favourite Elements: Sodium, Neodymium, Xenon
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