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Thread: endo/exothermic reactions cation/anions

  1. #1 endo/exothermic reactions cation/anions 
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    1.I know that there are different kinds of chemical reactions, like exothermic and endothermic reactions where electromagnetic radiation in the form of heat (and is it all in the form of heat?) is either absorbed making the endothermic reaction cold or radiated out making exothermic reactions warm. Are there reactions where there is absolutely no absorbing or radiating of electromagnetic radiation? Why do exothermic and endothermic reactions occur in the first place? I know that it probably has to do with the way the electron configurations work when there is a chemical reaction, but I donít know how that works because I learned this stuff a long time ago in a chemistry class. I know there are covalent bondsÖare these where electrons get shared? Are polar and nonpolar bonds covalent, and if so, are covalent bonds the sharing of electrons and how does that work? Also of covalent bonds, are their both endothermic and exothermic reactions, and if so what would be examples and how would it work? And there are ionic compounds. I also ask the same thing of ionic compounds. Arenít ionic compounds made by the stripping of an electron from one atom, the anion, and the same electron being added to the other atom, the cat ion, like table salt, where the electron gets stripped from the sodium, a metal, and absorbed by the chlorine atom? Isnít this because the metal has a loose outer electron, and that is the reason that metal is malleable and can conduct electricity? I know that the reaction of sodium and chlorine is an exothermic reaction, but are all ionic reactions exothermic? And with any chemical reaction, there seems to be a way that the electron configuration that is normal for it has a way of expressing a potential place that electrons can become part of the configuration, like with the chlorine when it absorbs the loose outer electron of the sodium atom. However, I see that the place that, in this instance, the sodium is very weak in its electron configuration, so it loses the electron to the more powerful potential electron configuration of the chlorine atom. My knowledge of this is very slim, but I am wanting to figure out how it works.


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    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
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    You ask a lot of questions that feel rhetorical. You seem to understand what you're talking about well enough. Are you in a class/school learning this or are you undertaking chemistry learning on your own?

    You ask if covalent bonds are a sharing of e- and if ionic bonds are the transfer of e-. You seem to be getting it. If you asked whether or not e- and photons were the same thing, I might feel more compelled to spend some time answering the questions.


    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    I think I can answer some of the more basic questions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie1 View Post
    Are there reactions where there is absolutely no absorbing or radiating of electromagnetic radiation?
    I doubt it. Chemical reactions depend on electromagnetic interaction between atoms. When fundamental atoms combine the reaction produces radiation, it releases energy. See the proton proton cylcle:



    Two Hydrogen atoms (protons) combine to form a deuterium atom, a positron and a neutrino is expelled. If the deuterium absorbs another proton (a positively charged hydrogen ion, then it will form Helium 3 and expel gamma radiation, if the helium 3 (He3) collides with another helium3 then two protons will be emmitted leaving helium a very stable gas containing two protons and two neutrons. I am under the impression that protons and neutrons are both Hydrongen, I know a proton is a hydrogen partical with a positive charge and a neutron is a Hydrogen partical with a neutral charge. Either that or Hydrogen refers to a proton which has a positive charge.

    In the CNO cycle below:



    Carbon Nitrogen and Oxygen mollecules are all made from protons and neutrons in different amounts. New Hydrogen atoms are abosrbed which causes another new mollecule of N,C or O, This goes around in a cycle. Each time time a new proton is merged electrons, neutrinos, positrons and gamma rays are expelled at certain stages as well as hellium which is expelled when Nitrogen 15 absorbs a proton, becomes unstable, ejects a helium atom (otherwise known as an alpha partical due to its stability, I think) leaving an atom of carbon 12.

    As far as I can work out all chemicals are made up from protons and neutrons, protons beging made of two up and one down quark, nuetron beings made from two down and one up quark.

    I thought I could quickly answer some of your questions but I cant.

    An ion is a atom with an electronic charge, anions have a negative charge (more electrons than protons) and cat-ions have a positive charge (more protons than electrons)...(or vice versa?). Ionic bonds are caused by the attraction of positive and negative atoms (anions and cations), covalent bonds are caused by sharing an electron. Hydrogen only has one electron, electrons repel other electrons and so the fewer there are protecting a nucleus, the easy it is for electrons from other atoms to break through and trap the hydrogen partical (expelling a nuetrino and a positron or gamma etc, depending presumably on whats meeting what in the covalent bond).

    Hopefully its all correct and answers one or two of ur questions, it just happens i read some stuff on this recently. I'm still trying to make sense of it all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Chemical reactions depend on electromagnetic interaction between atoms. When fundamental atoms combine the reaction produces radiation, it releases energy.
    That is not chemistry (by any definition I am familiar with).

    Note, I have given some thought to answering the OP's questions but they are so mixed up, I'm not sure where to start ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Chemical reactions depend on electromagnetic interaction between atoms. When fundamental atoms combine the reaction produces radiation, it releases energy.
    That is not chemistry (by any definition I am familiar with).

    Note, I have given some thought to answering the OP's questions but they are so mixed up, I'm not sure where to start ...
    Why is it not chemicals? or chemistry? Isnt a covalent bond a chemical reaction? isnt an electron electromagnetic? please explain yourself better if you make a comment like that, a simple qualifier for the statement would be most helpful and show more curtesy/humility/respect.

    I think the OP seems just like me and a lot of people, just want a clear, orderly, coherant explaination from start to finish... Thats what we need, more people who you can bring clarity instead of confusion.
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    The reason a reaction is either exo or endothermic is basically to do with the amount of energy involved in the chemical bonds before and after the reaction. If the products of the reaction have less energy in their bonds than the initial reagents then energy will be released. Otherwise energy needs to be provided.

    I think that you may be making it more complicated by thinking of "electromagnetic radiation"; it is just energy which, initially, will be heat; i.e. the kinetic energy of the molecules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Why is it not chemicals? or chemistry?
    Those are nuclear reactions. Chemistry is the reactions between atoms and molecules. It does not involve the conversion of one element to another.

    Isnt a covalent bond a chemical reaction?
    Yes, forming and breaking such bonds is (may be) part of a chemical reaction.

    isnt an electron electromagnetic?
    Not really, no. It may interact via electromagnetic forces, though.

    I think the OP seems just like me and a lot of people, just want a clear, orderly, coherant explaination from start to finish... Thats what we need, more people who you can bring clarity instead of confusion.
    Sorry, but physical chemistry (the topic of the questions) is a big and very complicated subject. I could answer specific questions but I am not going to write a complete introductory text.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Why is it not chemicals? or chemistry?
    Those are nuclear reactions. Chemistry is the reactions between atoms and molecules. It does not involve the conversion of one element to another.

    Isnt a covalent bond a chemical reaction?
    Yes, forming and breaking such bonds is (may be) part of a chemical reaction.

    isnt an electron electromagnetic?
    Not really, no. It may interact via electromagnetic forces, though.

    I think the OP seems just like me and a lot of people, just want a clear, orderly, coherant explaination from start to finish... Thats what we need, more people who you can bring clarity instead of confusion.
    Sorry, but physical chemistry (the topic of the questions) is a big and very complicated subject. I could answer specific questions but I am not going to write a complete introductory text.
    So what i described was a chemical reaction but it isn't chemistry? whatever, the first one was the process helium is made from hydrogen (the two most common atoms (ellementary chemicals?) in the universe. The next is a cycle in which hydrogen is chemicaly and covalently bonded to more complex atoms (chemicals?) such as carbon nitrogen and oxergen, which also produces helium as a by product. I'm a novice but i'm pretty sure this must be chemistry. The periodic table is a table of chemical ellements isnt it? Atoms are the ellements of chemistry.
    What atoms or chemical ellements are there that don't contain hydrogen? It looked to me from the second diagram that oxygen, nitrogen and carbon are made up of varying quatities of positive (proton) and neutral (nuetron) Hydrogen, is that correct? Arn't all the heavier chemical ellements made up of the same stuff?
    I'm still trying to digest what i read, its seems the way the stuff was written was unecesarily complicated, even though it was written to be 'accessible' to the lehman.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    So what i described was a chemical reaction but it isn't chemistry? whatever, the first one was the process helium is made from hydrogen (the two most common atoms (ellementary chemicals?) in the universe.
    No it is a nuclear reaction, not a chemical one. Chemistry is where the electrons in atoms interact so that hydrogen, for example, can combine with oxygen to form water (a molecule).

    Nuclear reactions are where the nuclei of atoms are split or joined to create different elements; e.g. forming helium from hydrogen.

    What atoms or chemical ellements are there that don't contain hydrogen?
    The only element that contains hydrogen is .... hydrogen.

    It looked to me from the second diagram that oxygen, nitrogen and carbon are made up of varying quatities of positive (proton) and neutral (nuetron) Hydrogen, is that correct? Arn't all the heavier chemical ellements made up of the same stuff?
    All atoms are made from protons neutrons and electrons. (They are not made from hydrogen.)

    I'm still trying to digest what i read, its seems the way the stuff was written was unecesarily complicated
    I doubt it was unnecessarily complicated. The universe is a complicated place.
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    [QUOTE=Strange;361911]
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    No it is a nuclear reaction, not a chemical one. Chemistry is where the electrons in atoms interact so that hydrogen, for example, can combine with oxygen to form water (a molecule).

    Nuclear reactions are where the nuclei of atoms are split or joined to create different elements; e.g. forming helium from hydrogen.
    I apreciate I am a little confused about it. Well what is the nuclues of oxygen 15? it looks like a load of protons and nuetrons.

    What is a hydrogen atom? it is a proton? with an electron? or is a proton with an elctron a nuetron?

    I'm not getting the distinction your making between nuclea 'joining' and electrons in atoms interacting...? It seems to be exactly the same thing hapening, nuclei joining and growing by interacting of electrons in protons. I beleive Hydrogen is a proton, it said so in the diagrams. We can see from the proton - proton cycle diagram that nutrons are created when two protons collide and their electrons interact, this seems exactly as you described a chemical reaction and a nuclular.
    The CNO cycle diagram shows hydrogen chemically joining with oxygen15 to form nitrogen15, with a positron and nutrino being emitted. This seems exactly the same thing going on... does something have to be a mollecule in order to be a chemical? what makes two hydrogen atoms hit one oxygen atom at the same time to form a water mollecule? is it chance? Is the Oxygen in H2O different from Oxygen

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The only element that contains hydrogen is .... hydrogen.
    Oxygen 15 is an ellement isnt it? Nitrogen 15 and carbon 12 are ellements arn't they? they are atoms? they are mollecules? They are ellements of many things. According to the CNO and Proton proton diagrams a Proton is a hydrogen atom (H). If Hydrogen is not a proton then what is it in terms of proton nutron components and how does it vary from a proton?

    [QUOTE=Strange;361911]All atoms are made from protons neutrons and electrons. (They are not made from hydrogen.)[QUOTE]

    So Hydrogen is a proton plus an electron? Then why is the Hydrogen (1H) called a proton in the Key at the bottom?
    Why did I read that Hydrogen is one proton and when it hits another one it form dueterium etc etc and why does it show a proton in the proton proton diagram as H?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I doubt it was unnecessarily complicated. The universe is a complicated place.
    Good point, maybe its that i've been reading material of different ages, 10 yrs is a long time ago compared to recent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Well what is the nuclues of oxygen 15? it looks like a load of protons and nuetrons.
    Correct. The nucleus of an atom contains protons and neutrons, usually a roughly equal number of each. The number of protons determines which element it is. The number of neutrons can vary and so you can have different "isotopes" of each element (same number of protons but different numbers of neutrons).

    In some cases, the number of neutrons and protons is not a stable configuration and so you have an unstable or radioactive isotope. This can decay and change into another isotope of the same element or into a different element.

    What is a hydrogen atom? it is a proton? with an electron? or is a proton with an elctron a nuetron?
    "Normal" (i.e. most) hydrogen is a single proton and a single neutron. There is another isotope (deuterium) with one proton, one neutron and an electron and one (tritium with one proton, two neutrons and one electron. Tritium is radioactive and decays to form helium.

    I'm not getting the distinction your making between nuclea 'joining' and electrons in atoms interacting...? It seems to be exactly the same thing hapening, nuclei joining and growing by interacting of electrons in protons.
    One thing is that chemical reactions only involve the electrons while nuclear reactions only involve the neutrons and protons (other particles may be emitted and absorbed from the nucleus, but the atom's electrons are not directly relevant).

    Another thing is that the word atom comes from the Greek meaning "indivisible" and in chemistry we treat atoms as if they are still indivisible (but in nuclear reactions obviously they are divisible).

    So, in a chemical reaction whatever elements are present at the start are still present in exactly the same amount afterwards. For example, water can be formed by combining hydrogen and oxygen. These both occur in nature as molecules of two atoms and so the reaction is:
    2 H2 + O2 = 2 H2O

    In more complex reactions we might also have to keep track of where electrons go as well.

    I beleive Hydrogen is a proton, it said so in the diagrams.
    The diagrams don't show the electrons around the atoms because these play no part in nuclear reactions. So it just shows the proton fr hydrogen but there is an electron there as well.

    We can see from the proton - proton cycle diagram that nutrons are created when two protons collide and their electrons interact, this seems exactly as you described a chemical reaction and a nuclular.
    This is not a chemical reaction because (a) it involves the protons and neutrons and not the electrons and (b) you end up with a different atom (a different isotope or a different element).

    The CNO cycle diagram shows hydrogen chemically joining with oxygen15 to form nitrogen15, with a positron and nutrino being emitted.
    This is not a chemical reaction because (a) it involves the protons and neutrons and not the electrons and (b) you end up with a different atom (a different isotope or a different element).

    A chemical reaction involving nitrogen and oxygen would end up with nitrogen oxide (still nitrogen and oxygen but combined in different molecules).

    what makes two hydrogen atoms hit one oxygen atom at the same time to form a water mollecule? is it chance?
    basically, yes. But in most cases there are so many atoms or molecules flying around that the chances of them getting close enough to react is very high. Hydrogen burns very well for this reason.

    Is the Oxygen in H2O different from Oxygen
    No, oxygen is oxygen.

    Oxygen 15 is an ellement isnt it? Nitrogen 15 and carbon 12 are ellements arn't they? they are atoms? they are mollecules?
    They are all elements and atoms. Nitrogen and oxygen typically exist in nature as molecules of two atoms (or in compounds with other elements). Carbon exists as diamond, graphite and other forms such as buckyballs.

    I think that answers most of your questions ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    What is a hydrogen atom? it is a proton? with an electron? or is a proton with an elctron a nuetron?
    "Normal" (i.e. most) hydrogen is a single proton and a single neutron. There is another isotope (deuterium) with one proton, one neutron and an electron and one (tritium with one proton, two neutrons and one electron. Tritium is radioactive and decays to form helium.
    Normal Hydrogen is formed by two protons colliding? as seen in the proton proton cycle.
    This is a positively charge Hydrogen ion 2H?
    Normal Hydrogen ions do not have an electron? How are they bonded? I beleived Hydrogen atom had one electron which is what makes them so suitable form forming covalent bonds.

    Deuterium is an isotope of normal Hydrogen which somehow has an electron, how does it gain this electron?

    3H or tritium is not shown to be reactive in the proton proton cycle unless it joins up with another tritium atom to become 6H which quickly deays into an alpha partical (helium) and two 1H (protons).

    So 1H is a proton (or apparently a Hydrogen ion, though not strictly speaking - according to a twisted and dated chemistry definition- an atom.)
    What do you have if you add anelectron to a proton?
    2H is the most common Hydrogen. Add an electron and you have the isotope of Hydrogen, deuterium.
    3H is tritium which is two protons, one nutron and an ellectron, not two neutrons and one proton.
    3H + 3H = 4He + 1H + 1H


    How do two protons join together? why is a positron and neutrino emitted?

    "2 H2 + O2 = 2 H2O"
    why does this not read: H2O2?

    By H2 above you must mean deuterium because its the only Hydrogen isotop with an electron that can form a mollecule via a chemical reaction, right?

    I meant is H2O's oxergen different from O15 (which is an isotope of oxergen right?)

    I could go on with the questions but it will take all day
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    I'm usually more than happy to explain the little chemistry I know, but this is like asking for a crash course in C101.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    It feels like pre-101 but I'll have a go (work avoidance again ...)

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Normal Hydrogen is formed by two protons colliding? as seen in the proton proton cycle.
    No, the two protons represent to "normal" hydrogen atoms (as i say, the diagram omits the electrons as they are irrelevant because this is nuclear physics not chemistry).

    This is a positively charge Hydrogen ion 2H?
    No, a 2H atom would have a proton and a neutron (which would both be shown in these diagrams). These diagrams don't show the difference between atoms and ions because it is not chemistry and so it is not relevant. (Remember: chemical reactions = electrons; nuclear reactions = protons and neutrons).

    Normal Hydrogen ions do not have an electron?
    Correct. An H+ ion does not have an electron. An H- ion would have two electrons.

    How are they bonded?
    They are not bonded. You get free ions when you disolve something in water for example. If you have an acid in water, you will have hydrogen ions floating around.

    I beleived Hydrogen atom had one electron which is what makes them so suitable form forming covalent bonds.
    Correct.

    Deuterium is an isotope of normal Hydrogen which somehow has an electron, how does it gain this electron?
    All atoms have the same number of electrons as protons. Deuterium is no different from any other.

    3H or tritium is not shown to be reactive in the proton proton cycle unless it joins up with another tritium atom to become 6H which quickly deays into an alpha partical (helium) and two 1H (protons).
    Boh. (Italian for, "dunno" - nuclear reactions are not something I know a lot about.)

    So 1H is a proton (or apparently a Hydrogen ion, though not strictly speaking - according to a twisted and dated chemistry definition- an atom.)
    No, it is an atom. It can be ionised though (like any other atom). 1H+ is a proton.

    What do you have if you add anelectron to a proton?
    A hydrogen atom (1H).

    2H is the most common Hydrogen. Add an electron and you have the isotope of Hydrogen, deuterium.
    No, 1H is the most common isotope (like 99.98% or something). Add a neutron and you have deuterium.

    3H is tritium which is two protons, one nutron and an ellectron, not two neutrons and one proton.
    No, it is one proton (otherwise it wouldn't be hydrogen), two neutrons and an electron.

    How do two protons join together? why is a positron and neutrino emitted?
    Not my subject. I can't really answer this.

    "2 H2 + O2 = 2 H2O"
    why does this not read: H2O2?
    H2 is a hydrogen molecule consisting of two hydrogen atoms. O2 is an oxygen molecule consisting of two oxygen atoms. H2O is a water molecule consisting of 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

    Count the total number of H atoms and O atoms on each side of the equation: there are 4 Hs (2 H2) and 2 Os (O2) on the left and 4 Hs (2 H2O) and 2 Os (2 H2O) on the right. In chemistry, the number of atoms of each element on both sides must be equal.

    H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide and would require more oxygen atoms.

    By H2 above you must mean deuterium because its the only Hydrogen isotop with an electron that can form a mollecule via a chemical reaction, right?
    No. All hydrogen isotopes have one electron. In chemistry we don't care which isotope is involved (except in a few special cases). The above chemical reactions would be identical for deuterium, hydrogen or tritium and for any of the (stable) oxygen isotopes.

    I meant is H2O's oxergen different from O15 (which is an isotope of oxergen right?)
    No. Any isotope of oxygen can (and does) occur in water. All molecules contain a mixture of the isotopes of their elements that occur in nature (normally in the proportion they occur in nature). In chemistry we don't (normally) care about isotopes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I'm usually more than happy to explain the little chemistry I know, but this is like asking for a crash course in C101.
    Haa! yeah I can see what you mean. Just tell me i'm right and i'll be happy.

    I'm getting vague ideas about how it works, but I think im finding contradictory sources.

    I thinks its best to start at the foundation, and I beleive thats what i'm doing by trying to understand the differences and similarities and behaviours of protons, neutrons and Hydrogen, Deutrium

    Its seems to me like the bigger atoms such as oxygen, Nitrogen, Carbon, iron etc etc are made from larger and larger and more and more complex arrangments of protons and neutrons. It also seems to me at the minute, that a proton is a Hydrogen ion without an electron, a neutron is a proton which has reacted with another proton and taken on an electron, then binds to the proton it reacted with and forms a deuterium.

    It seems like its the same stuff but with a different charge reacts differently and forms different larger atoms.

    It seems pretty simple, and yet it sounds so complicated.

    Is it fair to say that 2H is the basic building block of chemicals on earth? Does 2H Hydrogen gain an electron to become deuterium?

    Im just trying to understand the distinction between protons, neutrons and Hydrogens, and the distinctintion between hydrogen and larger particals Such as Oxygen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Its seems to me like the bigger atoms such as oxygen, Nitrogen, Carbon, iron etc etc are made from larger and larger and more and more complex arrangments of protons and neutrons.
    OK so far.

    It also seems to me at the minute, that a proton is a Hydrogen ion without an electron
    OK. Although it might be slightly more accurate to say that a hydrogen ion (an atom without an electron) is a proton. A subtle but, to my mind, important distinction.

    , a neutron is a proton which has reacted with another proton and taken on an electron
    Noooooooooooo!

    A neutron is a neutron. A proton is a proton. Through the process of beta decay one can turn into the other.

    then binds to the proton it reacted with and forms a deuterium.
    Deuterium is an atom containing one proton and one neutron. But the neutron does not have to have "reacted with" the proton.

    Is it fair to say that 2H is the basic building block of chemicals on earth?
    2H is deuterium which is exceedingly rare. Hydrogen is only the building block of all chemicals on earth, in the sense that all the elements heavier than helium were formed in stars by nuclear fusion.

    Does 2H Hydrogen gain an electron to become deuterium?
    No, 2H is deuterium.

    Im just trying to understand the distinction between protons, neutrons and Hydrogens, and the distinctintion between hydrogen and larger particals Such as Oxygen.
    Protons, neutrons and electrons are the fundamental particles that make up all atoms.

    Hydrogen is one element. Oxygen is another element. (They are not "particles") They, and all elements, are made up of different numbers of protons, neutrons and electrons. Atoms always have the same number of protons and electrons. Isotopes have different numbers of neutrons. Ions are atoms that have lost or gained one or more electrons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    It also seems to me at the minute, that a proton is a Hydrogen ion without an electron
    OK. Although it might be slightly more accurate to say that a hydrogen ion (an atom without an electron) is a proton. A subtle but, to my mind, important distinction.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post

    , a neutron is a proton which has reacted with another proton and taken on an electron
    Noooooooooooo!

    A neutron is a neutron. A proton is a proton. Through the process of beta decay one can turn into the other.
    Beta decay affects them when they join togather. Beta decay is gamma radiation right? How can a positron decay to form a neutron?

    A question I aked before but i dont think you answered 'Why does a proton change into a neutron when they combine? as shown in the proton proton diagram:


    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Deuterium is an atom containing one proton and one neutron. But the neutron does not have to have "reacted with" the proton.
    Then how do they bond? Dueterium has a proton, netron and electron (according to your earlier post), I am under the impression the proton and neutron was binding be a convalent bond?

    According to you, one neutron and one proton with no electron is a Hydrogen atom (2H?)... How do these two bond?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    2H is deuterium which is exceedingly rare. Hydrogen is only the building block of all chemicals on earth, in the sense that all the elements heavier than helium were formed in stars by nuclear fusion.
    Including helium? it isn't made on earth is it?

    They were all made in the stars from hydrogen fusing?

    [QUOTE=Strange;362176]Does 2H Hydrogen gain an electron to become deuterium?
    No, 2H is deuterium.[QUOTE]

    I thought you said something about 2H without an electron?



    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Atoms always have the same number of protons and electrons.
    Why is this? Protons don't have electrons, once they get electrons they become Hydrongen... So it's Hydrogen that is building up heavier ellements.

    So where does the electron come from?
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    OK. Although it might be slightly more accurate to say that a hydrogen ion (an atom without an electron) is a proton. A subtle but, to my mind, important distinction.
    Why?[/QUOTE]

    Never mind. Lets try and get the basics right first.

    Beta decay affects them when they join togather.
    That is one case. A free neutron (i.e. outside an atom) will also decay to a proton via beta decay.

    Beta decay is gamma radiation right?
    No, beta radiation.

    How can a positron decay to form a neutron?
    It can't.

    A question I aked before but i dont think you answered 'Why does a proton change into a neutron when they combine? as shown in the proton proton diagram:
    I probably said, "I don't know" (if I didn't, I should have done). This really isn't my subject.

    Then how do they bond? Dueterium has a proton, netron and electron (according to your earlier post), I am under the impression the proton and neutron was binding be a convalent bond?
    The neutrons and protons in the nucleus are bound together by the strong nuclear force. (That is not 100% accurate, but good enough for now.)

    Covalent bonds are formed between atoms by electrons. Not between protons and neutrons. (So they are part of chemistry, not nuclear reactions.)

    According to you, one neutron and one proton with no electron is a Hydrogen atom (2H?)
    No. One proton. One neutron. One electron. All atoms have the same number of protons and electrons.

    ... How do these two bond?
    Strong nuclear force.

    Including helium? it isn't made on earth is it?
    I think nearly all the helium was also made in the big bang. Small amounts are created on Earth by the decay of other elements.

    They were all made in the stars from hydrogen fusing?
    Yep. We are stardust, as the song goes.

    I thought you said something about 2H without an electron?
    I don't think so. If I did, it was a mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Atoms always have the same number of protons and electrons.
    Why is this?
    Atoms are electrically neutral so they must have the same number of positive charges (protons) and negative charges (electrons).

    Protons don't have electrons, once they get electrons they become Hydrongen...
    A single proton plus an electron is hydrogen. Eight protons plus eight electrons (and some neutrons) is oxygen.

    So it's Hydrogen that is building up heavier ellements.
    No.

    So where does the electron come from?
    Which one? All atoms have electrons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    How can a positron decay to form a neutron?
    It can't.

    I meant proton...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    That is one case. A free neutron (i.e. outside an atom) will also decay to a proton via beta decay.
    The negative charge decays leaving the positive proton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    ... How do these two bond?
    Strong nuclear force.
    What is the nature of this force? electromagnetic? I've heard of a weak nuclear force too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Atoms always have the same number of protons and electrons.
    Why is this?
    Atoms are electrically neutral so they must have the same number of positive charges (protons) and negative charges (electrons).
    Because the are made of Hydrogen and Hydrogen is a proton and an electron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    So it's Hydrogen that is building up heavier ellements.
    No.
    Well what do you propose it is? Whats the connection between the fact that every atom or ellement has an equal number of protons and electrons, and the fact that Hydrogen is a proton and electron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    So where does the electron come from?
    Which one? All atoms have electrons.
    ALL electrons... they are not in protons, they are apparently not in neutrons... where do they come from to form Hydrogen?
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    How can a positron decay to form a neutron?
    It can't.
    I meant proton...?
    It still can't. As far as I know, protons are stable and don't decay. But, as I say, this is not really my area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    That is one case. A free neutron (i.e. outside an atom) will also decay to a proton via beta decay.
    The negative charge decays leaving the positive proton?
    Charge cannot decay. An electron and neutrino is emitted. But this does NOT mean that there is an electron inside the neutron.

    What is the nature of this force? electromagnetic?
    It is the residual effect of the color charge between the quarks inside the neutrons and protons. It is one of the four fundamental forces: strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravity.

    Because the are made of Hydrogen and Hydrogen is a proton and an electron.
    No, they are not made of hydrogen. All atoms are made of proton, neutrons and electrons. That does not mean they are all made of hydrogen.

    Houses are made of bricks. Hotels are made of more bricks. Therefore hotels are made from houses. Does that make sense? No.

    Well what do you propose it is? Whats the connection between the fact that every atom or ellement has an equal number of protons and electrons, and the fact that Hydrogen is a proton and electron?
    Hydrogen is just the simplest atom.

    ALL electrons... they are not in protons, they are apparently not in neutrons... where do they come from to form Hydrogen?
    I'm not quite sure what you mean. You know that neutrons and protons form the nucleus, right? And "nucleus" means center. The electrons form a "cloud" around the nucleus. They are available to form chemical bonds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    How can a positron decay to form a neutron?
    It can't.
    I meant proton...?
    It still can't. As far as I know, protons are stable and don't decay. But, as I say, this is not really my area.
    Right, I didn't think it could. It was something you suggested earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    That is one case. A free neutron (i.e. outside an atom) will also decay to a proton via beta decay.
    The negative charge decays leaving the positive proton? [/QUOTE]

    Charge cannot decay. An electron and neutrino is emitted. But this does NOT mean that there is an electron inside the neutron.[/QUOTE]

    If an electron and neutrino is emmitted.. but the neutron does not contain electrons, then what? Electrons are created during the 'emittion'? what are you saying?

    I am incorect in thinking this process of electron and neutrino emittion is a form of decay? I thought it was you that called it decay. nvm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Because the are made of Hydrogen and Hydrogen is a proton and an electron.
    No, they are not made of hydrogen. All atoms are made of proton, neutrons and electrons. That does not mean they are all made of hydrogen.

    Houses are made of bricks. Hotels are made of more bricks. Therefore hotels are made from houses. Does that make sense? No.
    Thats a terrible analogy.

    The house would be a small mollecule, the hotel would be a large mollecule, they would both me made from bricks which are protons with electrons aka Hydrogen, and also neutrons which are what? minus an electron and neutrino they are a proton.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Where do ALL electrons come from?... they are not in protons, they are apparently not in neutrons (even though they emmit them... where do they come from to form Hydrogen?
    I'm not quite sure what you mean. You know that neutrons and protons form the nucleus, right? And "nucleus" means center. The electrons form a "cloud" around the nucleus. They are available to form chemical bonds.
    Are you for real? Yes I know that protons and neutrons form the nucleus, or did you know, in the case of Hydrogen its just a proton forming a nucleus? I know that electrons form 'clouds'... But according to you, there are no electrons in a proton and no electrons in a neutron (even though it emits one), so where do the electrons come from? It's obvious what I meant. How do atoms have electrons when protons and neutrons have none?
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    If an electron and neutrino is emmitted.. but the neutron does not contain electrons, then what? Electrons are created during the 'emittion'? what are you saying?

    I am incorect in thinking this process of electron and neutrino emittion is a form of decay? I thought it was you that called it decay.
    Yes, this is the process of beta decay (actually, it is pretty complicated, there are several types of beta decay and a few intermediate steps) and the electron and neutrino are created during the decay process. You can think of the electron being required to ensure electric charge is conserved. The anti-neutrino is required to conserve other quantities (e.g. lepton number). But don't ask me for more detail. That's it.

    Are you for real? Yes I know that protons and neutrons form the nucleus, or did you know, in the case of Hydrogen its just a proton forming a nucleus? I know that electrons form 'clouds'... But according to you, there are no electrons in a proton and no electrons in a neutron (even though it emits one), so where do the electrons come from? It's obvious what I meant. How do atoms have electrons when protons and neutrons have none?
    Well, I'm afraid it wasn't (and still isn't obvious). The electrons don't "come from" anywhere. Protons exist. Neutrons exist. Electrons exist. They can be combined in different numbers to make various atoms.

    OK. Maybe I have got it...

    I guess the total number of electrons now is pretty much the same as when all the hydrogen and helium was formed in the big bang. As heavier atoms have been formed in solar fusion and supernovae the same electrons that were part of the original hydrogen atoms become part of the larger atoms formed by the fusion of hydrogen. Is that it?

    Remember, in those nuclear fusion diagrams, the electrons are not shown. But there are always the same number of electrons as protons. So when an atom with more protons is formed, the electrons just sort of "follow along" with the protons. I'm sure it is much more complicated in practice, but that is basically where they "come from". They were always there and just shuffle around with the protons.
    Last edited by Strange; October 28th, 2012 at 07:21 PM.
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