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Kong seems to think chemistry can only be done in a university it seems.
I answered how to make KCl03 in another post, so it's already out there .
May 13th, 2009, 11:20 AM
Who decides what will be discussed and what the OP will do with the knowledge?
Kong seems to think chemistry can only be done in a university it seems.
I answered how to make KCl03 in another post, so it's already out there .
I think we need some background here to save wading through a multitude of posts to figure out what you are talking about.
Alternatively we could just ignore you. Your choice.
Well I'm new to this site but I'm not new to chemistry and personally I think it is a bad idea to give certain people advice on how to make certain compounds especially if they are asking for experimental procedures rather than theoretical information... In this instance Kong was asking how to make chemicals that are both commonly used in homemade explosives..
There could be legal ramifications when advice crosses from the theoretical to the experimental – there is real potential for someone to get seriously injured if they are not a classically trained chemist and they attempt chemical reactions in their homes or other such places – this also includes a very real possibility that the person giving the advice could find themselves legally responsible for the accident if incorrect / inadequate information was provided and the advice did not come with a list of the appropriate safety precautions as well as a disclaimer…
In my opinion for those reasons it is not a good idea to give advice when the person is:
1. Obviously not classically trained chemists – which Kong is not or he would not have needed to ask the question in the first place as a quick scifinder search could have provided him with all of the information that he needed…
2. The person is likely planning to do something illegal and/or dangerous to themselves and others with the information that they are requesting…
the inquiry about aluminum powder and potassium chlorate.
not every fireworks fan is a would be terrorist.
First should have referred to you not Kong,sorry..
second, thermite is not an explosive.
the chlorate question was answered in an earlier post straight out of Wiki
third , forget it I'm entitled to my opinion and you to yours, done arguing.
Well if it's quoted from wiki then there is no reason to provide an answer - just a link - when specifics are involved things can get dangerous...Originally Posted by fizzlooney
Further.. I'm not sure how you're defining explosives but if you read my post carefully I said that thermite is used in explosives see link: http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/06/341238.shtml
Furthermore creating thermite itself is very dangerous and can result in serious bodily injury...
so I'm not sure that you know what you're talking about... and when it comes to giving experimental advice on how to make extremely dangerous compounds to novices not utilizing proper supervision or a lab that is an extremely bad idea... just my thoughts...
In the hopes that I might actually persuade any novice chemists from attempting to grind up metals and or make hazardous compounds like thermite at home I have provided some links to why messing with these things without detailed knowledge of what you're doing and proper supervision can result in VERY serious injury or death and therefore makes doing so a very bad idea….
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=542&parent=506
http://www.springerlink.com/content/l24006w136ljq651/
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/833495-overview
People use thermite all the time in industry for welding etc. without injuries. Like almost anything else, it can be done safely if you're careful and know what you're doing. Personally I would rather see people discussing how to work with things like thermite safely rather than just telling people not to do it.
True, but those people are properly trained. I'm a pilot and a mechanic as well for a hobby and I weld all the time but I was properly trained by a professional before going off on my own and attempting to use these things. Certification / bonding is required for professional welders as well as people that want to play with fireworks as a job... surely there must be reasons why this is true...People use thermite all the time in industry for welding etc. without injuries. Like almost anything else, it can be done safely if you're careful and know what you're doing. Personally I would rather see people discussing how to work with things like thermite safely rather than just telling people not to do it.
It is very difficult to asses someone's knowledge of basic chemistry over the internet and it is especially concerning when they are siting procedures that won't work and are attempting to grind up metals into dusts that can be extremely explosive if not done properly...
Anyone who has ever TAed and undergraduate lab knows that even undergraduate level chemistry students make foolish mistakes that are harmful to themselves and others. This is also true with graduate students and professors.
Chemistry is something that is fun but it is also something that is dangerous and should be respected. People can and do get injured when negligence occurs.. the chances for this are exponentially higher when you are dealing with a novice performing dangerous reactions.
http://www.topix.com/science/chemist...sed-ucla-death
http://www.nmsu.edu/safety/news/news...rvine-fire.htm
http://www.nmsu.edu/~ucomm/Releases/..._incident.html
http://www.labsafetyinstitute.org/re...+Explosion.htm
doesn't thermite, the reaction of two rather incredibly simple metal compounds, require temps in excess of 1000 C? doesn't that make the 'manufacturing' process rather safe?
Nope.. But that is a common misconception. See link under ignition section and you will find that a child's sparkler can ignite thermite and it is ignorance of this fact among others that leads to serious injuy.. Furthermore the dusts themselves are explosive when combined in the wrong stoichiometry... Also leading to injury... Just another reason novices should not play with dangerous chemistry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
Unlike (I suspect) most people here, I have actually made and used thermite. In my opinion making thermite is less dangerous than pumping gas at a gas station. You are probably more likely to die in a car crash on your way to the store to buy the materials than you are to injure yourself mixing the materials together.
Gee , chemist, what do you think the combustion temperature of a sparkler is?
Think you are best suited to theoretiacal rather than practical chemistry.
I do agree that ignorance and chemisrty is a hypergolic mixture.
lol! I suppose they could use more candidates for the Darwin awards and wannabe chemists trying dangerous reactions make good candidates...
My experience with thermite has been that there isn't a problem with it until there is and it's usually novice not taking something into account that causes the problem...
The thermite reaction in our advanced inorganic lab was removed after a know it all undergrad accidentally lit himself ablaze with the flint lighter...
but who needs proper training or safety... I suppose flight time on microsoft flight sim equals my thousands of hours of actual flight time as well.. lol! Who needs proper training and experience anyway?
I don't think you understood my post at all...
He said the material are not dangerous and therefore the manufacturing process is not dangerous... which is false... I said nothing about the temperature... and this further shows your confusion on the subject...
It is very difficult to have a heat source of 1000c but it is not difficult to accidentally light thermite - depending on the size of the particles etc.. if you are not careful.. i.e. a typical flint lighter can do the trick and cause an unintentional ignition... as was the case in our undergrad lab here...
Not to mention the ferrous metals are a source of ignition in and of themselves if you're not careful when grinding / mixing them... etc.. etc...
read and then maybe reread the links in my posts above...
sigh....
"The thermite reaction can take place accidentally in industrial locations where abrasive grinding and cutting wheels are used with ferrous metals. Using aluminium in this situation produces an a mixture of oxides which is capable of a violent explosive reaction." - Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
See the above thermite link and check under hazards section...
oh and pleas also see: http://www.b3ta.com/questions/darwin/page10/
and search for keyword thermite... to see what happens when even undergrad chemistry majors who - "think" they know what they're doing mess around with this stuff..
lol! making thermite isn't dangerous like fishing with electricity isn't dangerous...
sure anything can be done with proper training.. and yet so many people have so littler of the later...
fizlooney,
We aren't going to host discussions on making thermite and other other explosives or dangerous combustables on The Science Forum. In theory or otherwise. Discussions like this one, on the dangers and caveats are great, but as soon as the discussion turns to the chemistry involved it'll be censored.
We aren't eager to do so, and we realize that such information is readily available in other places on the net, but we just don't want it here.
Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
SkinWalker
I call bullshit. There is simply no way that a hot stove could ignite thermite, unless they were making some sort of very non-standard variety.
We ran the thermite reaction many, many times for undergrads and never had a single problem (other than often having the magnesium ribbon fail to ignite the thermite). If done in reasonable quantities, away from anything flammable, with everyone a safe distance away, proper eye protection, and a nice long Mg ribbon to give whoever is igniting it plenty of time to back away, there is little to worry about.
Of course people can be injured by thermite, but people can be injured by many things. Many people have been injured, killed, or had their house burn down because of carelessness with charcoal grills. That doesn't mean that charcoal grills are deadly menaces that only experts should attempt to operate, it just means that people need to use common sense and exercise due caution. Your story from your undergrad lab seems to involve a student screwing around with his ignitor, which is certainly not what I would call "due caution." So sure, I fully agree that if you don't know what you're doing or are careless, there is potential for injury in igniting thermite (although I stand by my statement that you are more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the store to buy the ingredients than you are to die from accidentally igniting your thermite while mixing it). But I think it would be a better use of this forum to inform people how to work with it safely, rather than simply saying "OMG it's scary don't even think of trying it!!"
Like, say, the wikipedia page?
There are many ways to make thermite, some of which result in formulations that are safer than others. Why not inform people how to make the safer varieties?
lol! the guy stole the ignition source from the lab the sauce pan was just the vessel he was using. Regardless our undergrad still lit himself ablaze with a flint lighter so I would say it's quite likely to get yourself injured accidentally when attempting thermite reactions...I call bullshit. There is simply no way that a hot stove could ignite thermite, unless they were making some sort of very non-standard variety.
We ran the thermite reaction many, many times for undergrads and never had a single problem (other than often having the magnesium ribbon fail to ignite the thermite). If done in reasonable quantities, away from anything flammable, with everyone a safe distance away, proper eye protection, and a nice long Mg ribbon to give whoever is igniting it plenty of time to back away, there is little to worry about.
Of course people can be injured by thermite, but people can be injured by many things. Many people have been injured, killed, or had their house burn down because of carelessness with charcoal grills. That doesn't mean that charcoal grills are deadly menaces that only experts should attempt to operate, it just means that people need to use common sense and exercise due caution. Your story from your undergrad lab seems to involve a student screwing around with his ignitor, which is certainly not what I would call "due caution." So sure, I fully agree that if you don't know what you're doing or are careless, there is potential for injury in igniting thermite (although I stand by my statement that you are more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the store to buy the ingredients than you are to die from accidentally igniting your thermite while mixing it). But I think it would be a better use of this forum to inform people how to work with it safely, rather than simply saying "OMG it's scary don't even think of trying it!!"
Especially if you're GRINDING UP ferrous metals....
lol! sigh... people are funny.
EDIT: correction he used some sort of natural gas heat source which burns at 3000F and about 1600c so depending on the other metals in his mixture he could have easily lit up that thermite.. especially if it was finally ground which most reagent grade powders are...
btw I'm all for teaching people how to do chemistry but the place for that is college or other academic setting with real world contact and evaluation of students... Not an online forum.. Just like flight school is the place to train pilots not online or by MS flight sim... You just can't evaluate a person's aptitude and understanding over a forum...Like, say, the wikipedia page?
There are many ways to make thermite, some of which result in formulations that are safer than others. Why not inform pe
ople how to make the safer varieties?
Sigh...
I guess I'm more of the school of thought that people have a right to engage in potentially risky hobbies if they choose to. People should be given accurate information about the risks etc, and then it's up to them to decide for themselves if they want to try something. Different fundamental world view, I suppose.
While there is certainly some risk, in my opinion making and igniting thermite if done properly is no more dangerous than many, many other things that people commonly do for fun.
Hi,
I'm having some problem with my chemistry subject with our current professor...
he is asking us to research for caustic soda reaction with red algae forming GEL
He wants us to pass a high quality of gel from algae.
I've tried it several times. Yet i cant produce higher quality of GEL...
What should i do????Can you please help me...
I am very desperate to find some answers... Coz this is my only way to pass for this SEMESTER... Please...
One post was enough.
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