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Thread: explosive energy

  1. #1 explosive energy 
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    I will not ask how to make explosives, as that is generally a bad idea on forums. I just would like to know how much energy is released in an explosion of, say 'x' grams of trinitrotoluene, nitrocellulose, nitroglycerin, potassium permanganate, and generally other compounds that are volatile. I don't need to know how to make um, that's not the point of the thread, just felt the need to clarify


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    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    You are asking for the enthalpy of combustion?

    I'm afraid I don't know them.


    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
     

  4. #3  
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    more, I'm asking how much thermal energy and the speed of reaction of each chemical process, I don't remember learning anything like this in high school chem, so it's fine, thanks for the interest in the thread though.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    I found a site, I'm not sure how helpful this is.

    http://stason.org/TULARC/science-eng...xplosives.html

    So, what are you planning on blowing up?

    The energy produced is thermal energy only, I believe. I doubt it accounts for the kinetic energy caused by expansion of products, for instance, so the substance with the highest amount fo energy produced per kg may not cause the most damage.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
     

  6. #5  
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    thermal energy IS kinetic, if I'm not mistaken

    not planning on blowing anything up, it's actually for the propellant of a round of ammunition.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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  7. #6  
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    Suggestyou read up on the suject if you are going for a real world application.
    There is a big difference between propellants and explosives mainly the rate of the reaction. Propellants provide energy via a rapid combustion process , generally at less than the speeed of sound. to provide expanding hot gases. Examples are blackpowder,smokless powder, nitrocellulose . normally in the open they will just burn .Explosives detonate, ie the reaction wave travels at thousands of meters per second thru the material generating tremedous pressure. These can be made to detonate in the open Nitroglycerine, TNT, RDX, HMX ansd a buch more.

    Bottom line is you don't use explosives in cartridges for a gun.
    Yes there is a component of kinetic energy associated with themal energy of a gas, but thats not thwe whole story either. You must transfer the gas energy to a projectile which is another science in it self
    BYE
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathamatition
    thermal energy IS kinetic, if I'm not mistaken
    My point was, the total energy of the explosion may not be the same as the energy produced by the combustion reaction. It may also not be representative of how much damage/force is caused by the explosive.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
     

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    No, kinetic energy invoves only mass and velocity--- Ke=1/2MV^2

    The rate at which the energy is delivered is what counts. A given mass of propellant and exp[losve can have the same total heat energy but have totally different results, Dynamite goes in microseconds black powder in milliseconds. one is a sharp impact the other is a push.

    Actual damage is a function of many factors that I'll not address here.
     

  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzlooney
    No, kinetic energy invoves only mass and velocity--- Ke=1/2MV^2
    An increase in thermal energy results in an increase in kinetic energy, e.g. Melting and evaporating. Also see changes in pressure in gases due to temperature increase/decrease; this is because of the resulting change in kinetic energy.

    Hence they are related.

    Quote Originally Posted by fizzlooney
    Actual damage is a function of many factors.
    My point exactly.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
     

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    I give up , Bye!
     

  12. #11  
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    Sorry, I didn't mean to appear patronising. I just have trouble expressing myself in words sometimes.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
     

  13. #12  
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    Not relevant to the discussion.
     

  14. #13  
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    fizzlooney, such comments are not necessary. William's post was not on topic but neither was yours. I will take care of any posts that need to be taken care of, your input is not needed.
     

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    When someone dies because you do not understand explosives, but took over a chemistry forum, and removed my post. A post warning of possible death from very real phenomena. Remember I warned you and the owners of this site.

    You have been removing the real stuff and you do not even know it.

    What was not relevant about that post? I put the post below in blue.

    In that post was a highly detailed explanation of what happens when you allow an explosive/propellent to expand and heat. And then suddenly stop the expansion, with my shoulder. The normally medium powered round becomes something else.

    This is true of many propellents. I believe someone else had mentioned this about black powder burning very slowly. Yet being able to propel objects at high velocity.

    If black powder is not allowed to expand, while it is burning and chemically reacting. By a very strong container, casing. It can produce very powerful blasts.

    We shook the ground at my house one day during a 4th of July celebration. With a small amount of black powder, a thin plastic container, a squirt bottle, and tape wrapped around the plastic container.

    But black powder is a very slow burning substance. You can see it burn here. I am burning some. Looks kind of wimpy. Except for the heat, and expanding gases.

    http://www.Rockwelder.com/Explosives/blackpowder.wmv

    Black powder is similar in burn to Potassium perchlorate and sugar. This explosive if contained under pressure, is a very powerful explosive. So are ordinary match heads. If contained they can blow their bomb casing through many walls of steel. Right through a car. In and out.

    My whole post was introducing you to reality about propellents. Sorry you are not up to it. Shame you cannot let others at least have a look at it.

    Post in question.

    The most outrageous round I ever fired was a slug from a silenced shotgun. It was a spring recoiling shotgun. Not a gas recoiling shotgun. The recoil added something to the experience of the magnum slug round.

    I had fired a Mosberg with a three inch magnum, held it pistol grip in one hand. No problem until the police came to the job site and asked us to stop. The horses in the area were getting nervous.

    But when I fired the Browning three inch magnum slug gun, that spring recoiled, wow. I have fired thousands and thousands of rounds. Shotgun, 30-06, and 223 rounds mostly.

    But only this gun and this round was able to almost keep me from firing another. It bruised my shoulder in one shot. That is how powerful the kick was. Same round as fired from the Mosberg. That I fired with one hand. Just a slight knocking in the wrist.

    But the Japanese made Browning spring recoil, fired silently. Except for a ring like a hotel desk bell. From the large chrome steel bolt.

    I had two of them at one time. A Belgium made and a Japanese made Browning slug gun. The Belgium made gun, made a popping noise just like opening up a champagne bottle.

    The first time I fired this gun, it was at the recommendation of a firearms expert at a local gun shop. He was asking me about all my guns. I had told him about these two. And he said did you ever fire them with magnum slugs. And I said no. He said you have to try it, you will not believe it. So I bought two boxes. He only had one box of three inch magnums and one box of 2 3/4 inch magnums. But he said I would not be able to tell the difference. And he was right. They both have the same gunpowder charge.

    I get to the range. And anyone that knows guns knows that putting a bullet through the same hole almost always causes a slight oblong shape to occur in the target or just a bit of fuzz.

    I get out the guns, put them on the stainless steel counter. And load them up. You are only supposed to put one round into the shotgun at a time. But I have a problem with authority sometimes. Ha-ha.

    So I aim at the target and fire. I hear no normal gun sound and no range echo. My shoulder or chest hurts bad. This is new to me. I have fired magnum slugs and never had a problem. This was like getting hit by a car. I look up and I have a perfect bull's-eye. This was interesting because I thought maybe the gun had jammed or malfunctioned. Because of the energy I was hit with.
    I know this round. I thought I knew this gun. And better put I thought I knew this round.

    I fired another, at the target, I just had to do this again. Same quiet bell hop, bell sound. But no new hole in the target and my chest feels like I was hit by a second car.
    We used to fool around in the yard with a forklift and full drums of liquid and or solid debris. One guy would send them into the truck at fifteen miles an hour, and hit me with them. So I was used to punishment. Ha-ha.

    Now because there is not a new hole, and I could not have missed at that range. But also could not have gotten another perfect bull's-eye, from all the practical experience I have in the gun world. I check the barrel to see if the round came out or if it is jammed in the barrel. The barrel is clear. The casing ejected.

    So I fire another. No new hole. I am really getting a bit giddy. Kind of laughing uncontrollably to myself. I am waiting for someone to come into the range, laughing and tell me they are playing a trick on me. Now I know the last one came out. What are the odds that this one jammed. I will be honest so much stuff was going through my mind. I was almost out of control. I was always big on gun safety. This is making safety hard.

    I say to myself look, fire one low and left one quarter inch. So I do. I look at the target, and there is a quarter inch crest beyond the perfect previous bull's-eye hole. Now I am beyond insane. Because I know from the thousands and thousands of rounds I have fired there is no way to do what I just did. Or so I thought or was taught.

    I fire one more out of the Japanese made gun and there is no new hole in the target. I do not know if it went through the bull's-eye perfectly or into the crest. But wow, what an accurate firearm.

    At this point I just wanted to go home. But I said look I will not get back to the range for a while let me just try the Belgium slug gun. That is how I found out it makes the champagne cork popping sound. I think I fired two rounds. This gun did not hurt as much as the Japanese shotgun that had a shorter and lighter barrel. But it still kicked like a mule.

    I packed the guns up, I was hyperventilating a bit. And laughing in outbursts. I knew I should not be handling fire arms in that state. So I went home.

    This was me with my son testing his new Wassa, plinker out at the same range.

    http://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/WildBill.wmv

    This gun had a plastic rod inside of it. So before you fire a gun check it out. Something like that could possibly kill you.




    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

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    In my day as part of shotgun and gun safety. We were taught that because some do not face engineering realities. That you must always keep the gun pressed tightly to your shoulder.

    Because what happens with that Browning spring recoil, and those two types of magnum slug rounds. Can on occasion happen to a regular usually inexpensive single shot slug gun.
    It is so light that it can recoil and then hit your shoulder. If you do not have it up against your shoulder. Some gun experts claimed that you can break your neck while firing a shot gun if you do not keep it pressed firmly against your shoulder.

    I cannot put all the relevance into one post. But I mean to get it all into one topic.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  17. #16  
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    William, your information isn't bad but it isn't relevant to this topic. If you really want to make a point of what you said in your post then find an appropriate subforum and start a thread on it. But it is not relevant to the question posed in the original thread.
    "There is a kind of lazy pleasure in useless and out-of-the-way erudition." -Jorge Luis Borges
     

  18. #17  
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    Removed. Off-topic.
     

  19. #18 Re: explosive energy 
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    Removed for obvious reasons.
     

  20. #19  
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    Willy.... You're directly going to cost someone their life.... Nitroglycerin is a touch explosive, and detonates at the slightest bit of increase in energy.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

     

  21. #20  
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    TRASH CAN CANDIDATE<FOR SURE!
     

  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathamatition
    Willy.... You're directly going to cost someone their life.... Nitroglycerin is a touch explosive, and detonates at the slightest bit of increase in energy.

    Like a lab technician, whose ventilated lab booth, has its windows sprayed with a small amount of some explosive substance?
    Or a scientist that is building a hydrogen peroxide, chamber to chemically remove light oil residue from the water in the chamber?
    Bank employees using fast drying counting ink, on money they put into the sealed vault?
    An overheated bearing on an oil pump turning into a flame thrower and igniting acetylene tanks that chain explode for hours?

    Only retarded people play God with knowledge. Knowledge only helps good people. Knowledge only kills bad people. So I guess I know who you are trying to protect.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathamatition
    Willy.... You're directly going to cost someone their life.... Nitroglycerin is a touch explosive, and detonates at the slightest bit of increase in energy.
    Static electricity can set off nitro glycerin. But static electricity can also set off, Class "C" fireworks. There are different grades and strength nitro glycerin. Just like there are different grades and strength nitric acid. And sulfuric acid.

    Very powerful nitric acid is explosive.

    Nitro glycerin is dangerous to handle. So it is not really as sensitive as most think. And yet can be more sensitive then most would believe. But then that is what the posts that were removed were getting to.

    I guess knowledge is not for everyone here. Very un-American.

    If you feel that knowledge will kill more good people then bad, I would recommend you get help.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

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    Take a look at the words that you left, in place of the life saving post you removed.

    "Removed for obvious reasons."

    The only thing obvious is the chaos you are giving into. You are introducing chaos because you do not understand the power of communication. Your words are insane.

    In your defense, you were brought up by people who were totally brain washed. Perhaps I am asking to much of you to have an open mind.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    Static electricity can set off nitro glycerin. But static electricity can also set off, Class "C" fireworks. There are different grades and strength nitro glycerin. Just like there are different grades and strength nitric acid. And sulfuric acid.
    But, you see, nitric and sulfuric acid are solutions, whereas nitro glycerine exists as a liquid.

    So, by putting more nitriv acid/sulfuric acid compared to water in a solution, you increase the strength of the acid. But nitro glycerine cannot have it's strength increased, because it is 100% nitro glycerine.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
     

  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    Static electricity can set off nitro glycerin. But static electricity can also set off, Class "C" fireworks. There are different grades and strength nitro glycerin. Just like there are different grades and strength nitric acid. And sulfuric acid.
    But, you see, nitric and sulfuric acid are solutions, whereas nitro glycerine exists as a liquid.

    So, by putting more nitriv acid/sulfuric acid compared to water in a solution, you increase the strength of the acid. But nitro glycerine cannot have it's strength increased, because it is 100% nitro glycerine.

    Nitroglycerin is made by washing it with water. And it is made with nitric acid and sulfuric acid. I believe you mentioned their water content.

    I believe they bubble air through the mixture to stir it.

    Since nitroglycerin is partially mixable or slightly soluble in water. There is going to be some in there.

    Nitro glycerine is soluble in ether and alcohol.

    I believe the fuming nitric acid, that is much heavier then regular nitric, can be made very pure. But it becomes so unstable.

    I don't think they make the strongest possible stuff. Either nitroglycerin or nitric acid. Because you could not handle it.

    Sulfuric acid in reagent grade is considered pure.

    White fuming Nitric acid can be had to about 97.5 percent purity. Remainder water and oxides.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  27. #26  
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    There is also desensitized nitro glycerin. That could be shipped as an explosive.

    All that removed stuff, is what you are supposed to learn before you get into the lab.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  28. #27  
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    This has strayed too far from the original post. Thread locked.
    "There is a kind of lazy pleasure in useless and out-of-the-way erudition." -Jorge Luis Borges
     

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