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Thread: Solid air!

  1. #1 Solid air! 
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    Water is a compound, right, because it is made up of 2 hydrogen molecules and one oxygen. So water, being a compound is a liquid in its natural state. But it can be evaporated into a gas and condensed into a solid, right. And while this is happening the compound is still a compound. H20 liquid is being condensed into H20 solid, and being evaporated into H20 gas. So does this mean that all compounds can be evaporated into a gas and condensed into a solid, all the while staying the same compound, just getting denser, or less dense? Or if it was a gas in its natural state, then it can be condensed into a liquid, and then into a solid? So, does this mean that you can condense a compound such as air into a liquid? So that means that I could have a liquid air. What would happen if you swallow liquid air or if you went as far as freezing it into a solid, would you be able to go as far as eating it, seeing as it is just air? Like you would eat cheese, of other food?


     

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  3. #2  
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    Air is a mixture not a compound. Think of it like vinaigrette with little peppercorns bipping about all on their own.


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    N2 in air condenses into liquid state at around 100K. noble gases in air at even lower temperature. if you wanted to make solid air, you would need to freeze air to such temperature that every element would be in solid state. if you have ever seen liquid nitrogen and what it does to ordinary things, you'd know that it is a really bad idea drinking it. your mouth would first freeze over than probably explode if any nitrogen touches your pharynx. but since noone did that before i could be mistaken
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  5. #4  
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    If your goal is to be able to breath a liquid, there is actually some research in this area. Basically it's a super oxygen rich liquid which allows your lungs to properly exchange CO2 for O2. Not really perfected yet, though.

    OP: Note that drinking this "liquid air" is different from breathing it. One goes to the lungs, the other to the stomach.
     

  6. #5 Air 
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    1.Yes you could solidify air, however eating it would prove very harmful if not leathal.Instant frostbite of your mouth would result.
    2 . Many componds go thru all three phgases if they are thermally stable.
     

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    haha, this brings to mind my dreams to see frozen/solid mercury. im not entirely sure if it's possible, unless like already mentioned, you drop the tempeture to the lower kelvin levels...
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  8. #7 Hg solid 
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    no big deal, melting point of Hg is 234K,-38.87C, easily done with dry ice or LN2.
    looks like any other silvery metal.
     

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    Actually, I would have to point out to you guys that you would not get INSTANT frostbite from ingesting liquid nitrogen. and here is why.

    Have any of you ever dropped water onto a really hot saucepan? it actually remains water for quite a while because it forms a protective cloud of gas between it and the surface.

    because of this phenomenon it is possible to completely immerse your hand into a dumar of liquid nitrogen without any ill effects (i have actually seen this done, and done this (admittedly for a significantly shorter period of time). therefore if one were to swallow liquid nitrogen in a relatively small amount, one could actually avoid most frost damage (again, it must be a pretty small amount) and instead only have a massive cloud of gaseous nitrogen shoot out.

    in fact, it is far more likely that one would die from the fact that they would not be able to intake any oxygen and would die of asphyxiation.


    P.S. check out this nifty video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/658756...e_second_boil/
     

  10. #9 YES BUT: 
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    Yes i know , it's the Leidenfrost effect. blows folks mind when I gargle LN2 and blow a huge fog cloud. LOX or liquid air (20% O2) is a different story. Unlike nitrogen or argon LOX will instantly wet the surface it touches due to the unbound par of electrons in the molecule. It will cause sever frostbite almost instantly. Liquid ammonia works the same way. Remember the original question was about solid AIR.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gmano
    Actually, I would have to point out to you guys that you would not get INSTANT frostbite from ingesting liquid nitrogen. and here is why.

    Have any of you ever dropped water onto a really hot saucepan? it actually remains water for quite a while because it forms a protective cloud of gas between it and the surface.

    because of this phenomenon it is possible to completely immerse your hand into a dumar of liquid nitrogen without any ill effects (i have actually seen this done, and done this (admittedly for a significantly shorter period of time). therefore if one were to swallow liquid nitrogen in a relatively small amount, one could actually avoid most frost damage (again, it must be a pretty small amount) and instead only have a massive cloud of gaseous nitrogen shoot out.

    in fact, it is far more likely that one would die from the fact that they would not be able to intake any oxygen and would die of asphyxiation.


    P.S. check out this nifty video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/658756...e_second_boil/
    If you breath in fresh pure evaporating liquid nitrogen. It does not asphyxiate you, by actual testing, over several minutes. However, if you try it with pressured cylinders, that gas is not pure nitrogen.
    Nitrogen pulls the oxygen off the walls of the cylinder and, becomes something else. That can cause asphyxiation. I noted the effect was similar to laughing gas. However the pure liquid nitrogen once evaporated, can be inhaled for extended periods with no harm done, by actual test.

    It was actually rather refreshing. Very light gas, that wakes you up, like a spring day. But not the tanked nitrogen. We use that to pressure check, refrigeration lines. It smells bad, is much heavier and is somewhat asphyxiating.

    The work aboard deep sea submarines, with high amounts of helium, show that oxygen is not key to survival.
    Rather a gas that can remove carbon dioxide from the body is needed. I am of the belief that the body gets oxygen from chemical reactions, from food and water. And turns it into carbon dioxide. That must be expelled.

    I know from being in very cold water, that by reducing body temperature, and the production of carbonic acid, that the body can survive for long periods without breathing in oxygen. It can function and perform for extended times. With no oxygen intake.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  12. #11 FICTION 
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    The above post is total fiction. LN2 and CO2 are the leading cause of accedental death from asphixia In the US.

    OXYGEN/ HELIUM mixtutres are used for what is known as saturation deep diving.

    Nirogen in a cylinder does not take anything out of the steel cylinder.

    Breathing pure nitrogen will not wake up Mr Mcormick rather it will end his erroneous posting carrier in about three minutes.

    Repiration of oxygen is necessary for life as we know it.
    I am astounded that this misinformatio was even posted on this forum.
     

  13. #12  
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    Yeah, Bill is something of a character
     

  14. #13  
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    Character or not such erronous banter is a discredit to this forum! Hiis other rantings are equaly full of let's politely call it Baloney!
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzlooney
    Character or not such erronous banter is a discredit to this forum! Hiis other rantings are equaly full of let's politely call it Baloney!


    I have breathed both liquid carbon dioxide vapor, in fairly large quantities from large siphon tube, liquid high pressure bottles, and liquid nitrogen from evaporating liquid nitrogen canisters.
    I use the liquid carbon dioxide to freeze pipes in building heating systems so I can cut them without cutting water and heat to an entire medical facility. Sometimes when we don't get all the leaks that happens anyway. Ha-ha.

    A friend of mine used to keep a liquid nitrogen tank in a room with him as he would port and polish intake manifolds. He owns a high pressure gas company here on the Island. More recently at another friends gas plant I inhaled nitrogen vapor boiling off rather violently, from a canister. Until I became board with it.

    I use nitrogen in pressurized cylinders to leak check high pressure refrigeration lines. It has an odor. Similar too laughing gas. Because it is not as pure as the liquefied nitrogen. Really good welders that need purity, use the liquid to create the gases, because of their purity.

    But nitrogen from tanks has an odor. Even the noble gases in rather pure form, suffer from a slight odor. That should not be there.

    Before you attack someone with insults and lies. You should investigate, and not just trust the Internet.

    From an experience with my body temperature becoming drastically lowered, I learned that it is the carbonic acid in your lungs that kills you. In extreme cold, your lungs do not become filled with carbonic acid. So you can swim under water for great lengths without breathing.

    Breathing Helium, bag after bag full, with no break. Gave me the feeling of hyperventilation. Not at all suffocation. That is why they use it in subs.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

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    I trust my experience as a practicing chemist for 41 years . I gather from some of your posts you are a plumber or refrigeration mechanic. I have delt with cryogenic fluids the whole time. The only reason you are not dead is that there is enough ambient air diluting the nitogen vapor you like to suck up. Try it in a closed space wise guy. Stick with what you know, science isn't it.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzlooney
    I trust my experience as a practicing chemist for 41 years . I gather from some of your posts you are a plumber or refrigeration mechanic. I have delt with cryogenic fluids the whole time. The only reason you are not dead is that there is enough ambient air diluting the nitogen vapor you like to suck up. Try it in a closed space wise guy. Stick with what you know, science isn't it.
    Men work in it all day. I can put my face in the bubbling fumes of nitrogen until I get bored. It is totally odorless and cannot be detected. However a whiff of pressurized tank nitrogen, and I have to back away. Big difference.

    I know you are book smart. Now get out there and try what I am mentioning. I am many things but rarely a liar.

    The gas in soda is carbonic acid, one of the most discomforting gases next to phosgene gas. Yet pure carbon dioxide vapor from liquid carbon dioxide is rather pleasant. It is totally odorless and cannot be detected at all.

    I work with my face in a confined area filled with, carbon dioxide from liquid carbon dioxide.

    Yet carbon dioxide "gas" in pressurized cylinders is very unpleasant.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  18. #17  
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    The depth of your ignorance is infinite, it's a wonder you are still alive. Go stick a knife in a toaster!
     

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    By the way Liquid CO2 only exists at room temp at a pressure of about 1800 psi.cylinders are the only way to contain it. Maybe you were breathing laughing gas. AS you frequently say, HA HA.
     

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    air isn't a compound it's a mixture, Like if you pour a pile of salt and sugar and mix them up, you can't see the salt and suger but their there. so to get liquid or solid air you would need to cool each component to it's liquid state

    basically no, you can't have liquid or solid air, oxygen and nitrogen freeze and liquify at different temperatures for example

    if you were to take some air and reduce it to absolute 0 you would freeze everything solid, but it would heat up again VERY fast
    It's not how many questions you ask, but the answers you get - Booms

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    YEs we figured out its a mixture long time ago. If you cool the whole mess to 63K or below it will be solid except for He and H2 and you can have your air snow cone. Goofy question to begin with, but that's why we are here , isn't it?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzlooney
    By the way Liquid CO2 only exists at room temp at a pressure of about 1800 psi.cylinders are the only way to contain it. Maybe you were breathing laughing gas. AS you frequently say, HA HA.
    If you go and read my post you will see, I mentioned that I use a siphon tube high pressure bottle, of CO2.

    I do not make this stuff up. I do these things.

    It is interesting though how you can make up your theories without experience, and or create a confusion, and expect to get away with it.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  23. #22  
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    Time to invoke an ole proverb: Never argue with a fool, for soon no one knows which is which.
    Your antics are actually becoming entertaining. ha ha ha aha ha ha ha ha aha !
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzlooney
    Time to invoke an ole proverb: Never argue with a fool, for soon no one knows which is which.
    Your antics are actually becoming entertaining. ha ha ha aha ha ha ha ha aha !
    I am pretty precise for what I have to work with.

    Instead of just attacking something, you should do the leg work. Or ask. This is America. You just have to ask, the right person and they will be all to happy to tell you.

    There are a lot of things that top scientists and engineers do not know. There are some that I do not know. However that does not make me a fool. It makes me an amateur Universal Scientist.




    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

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    I would heartily advise readers of your post to heed you own disclaimer!
     

  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzlooney
    I would heartily advise readers of your post to heed you own disclaimer!
    I already did that.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

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    Here is something to substantiate my claims.

    You might notice that CO2 is not carbonic acid. We know soda water bubbles are carbonic acid. Therefore the gas is not CO2.

    As I stated I work in clouds of expanding pure CO2 vapor. I have felt nothing even slightly odd when doing so for extended periods of time.

    I have been working with someone when they ordered the hot water turned on, and it filled a whole room with white fog. The kind you get from dry ice and warm water. Still no asphyxiating effect for an extended period.

    But I have mentioned that from my previous experiences with non pure liquid carbon dioxide, I thought it was asphyxiating myself. But working with really pure liquid carbon dioxide I found it to be not at all, asphyxiating.

    Pays to do your leg work.





    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  28. #27  
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    Some CO2 figures:
    Toxicity and it's effects increase with the concentration of CO2, here given in volume percent of CO2 in the air:

    * 1%, as can occur in a crowded auditorium with poor ventilation, can cause drowsiness with prolonged exposure.
    * At 2% it is mildly narcotic and causes increased blood pressure and pulse rate, and causes reduced hearing.
    * At about 5% it causes stimulation of the respiratory centre, dizziness, confusion and difficulty in breathing accompanied by headache and shortness of breath.
    * At about 8% it causes headache, sweating, dim vision, tremor and loss of consciousness after exposure for between five and ten minutes.

    Carbon dioxide dissolves in blood plasma to form carbonic acid, and lowers pH. It also forms carbaminohaemoglobin. These both lower haemoglobin's affinity for oxygen, resulting in increased unloading of oxygen at the bodily tissues. I suspect this is the 'rather pleasant' sensation you get from CO2, as your muscles are being provided surplus oxygen.

    I would not reccomend using CO2 to improve health, however, as it is slightly toxic, and also lower affinity for oxygen in haemoglobin reduces the total amount of oxygen carried.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle
    Some CO2 figures:
    Toxicity and it's effects increase with the concentration of CO2, here given in volume percent of CO2 in the air:

    * 1%, as can occur in a crowded auditorium with poor ventilation, can cause drowsiness with prolonged exposure.
    * At 2% it is mildly narcotic and causes increased blood pressure and pulse rate, and causes reduced hearing.
    * At about 5% it causes stimulation of the respiratory centre, dizziness, confusion and difficulty in breathing accompanied by headache and shortness of breath.
    * At about 8% it causes headache, sweating, dim vision, tremor and loss of consciousness after exposure for between five and ten minutes.

    Carbon dioxide dissolves in blood plasma to form carbonic acid, and lowers pH. It also forms carbaminohaemoglobin. These both lower haemoglobin's affinity for oxygen, resulting in increased unloading of oxygen at the bodily tissues. I suspect this is the 'rather pleasant' sensation you get from CO2, as your muscles are being provided surplus oxygen.

    I would not reccomend using CO2 to improve health, however, as it is slightly toxic, and also lower affinity for oxygen in haemoglobin reduces the total amount of oxygen carried.
    I believe you are quoting the effects of carbonic acid. At very low levels carbonic acid might cause this effect.

    It was suggested that using carbonic acid could revive patients who were caused to become unconscious in natural gas fumes. One problem with patients that have been gassed is that they are prone to stop breathing. They are over medicated basically. The carbonic acid naturally stimulates their lungs. You have to provide some other gas, like oxygen as well.

    If you look at the history of carbon dioxide in chemical books. You will see they synonymously called carbon dioxide, carbonic acid. Today we can laugh about the levels of purity they must have had in those days. This was up until about World War Two.
    But since some of the misunderstanding is still making it into modern science. I think it is less funny then it may appear to be.

    I know that many modern scientists still think that carbon dioxide is asphyxiating like soda water. When I know that guys use it in basements running all day long to keep their plants in the gas to help them grow. The basement is just filled with CO2 gas. So it is not as asphyxiating as some would have you believe.

    I have breathed the gas from fire extinguishers, and their CO2 output is sometimes chocking and asphyxiating. Some more then others. The reason carbonic acid is formed. It is no longer pure CO2 vapor.

    But I have the older texts and they use carbonic acid and Carbon dioxide CO2 synonymously/interchangeably. Yet today we know they are two different chemicals. With two very different effects. If anyone is interested let me know I will scan them in.

    The more modern texts no longer list them as synonymous. They are under two separate listings.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  30. #29  
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    William McCormick, I was actually agreeing with you. I was suggesting that a relatively large amount of CO2 can be inhaled before any negative effects occur.
     

  31. #30  
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    interesting, very interesting...
     

  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle
    Some CO2 figures:
    Toxicity and it's effects increase with the concentration of CO2, here given in volume percent of CO2 in the air:

    * 1%, as can occur in a crowded auditorium with poor ventilation, can cause drowsiness with prolonged exposure.
    * At 2% it is mildly narcotic and causes increased blood pressure and pulse rate, and causes reduced hearing.
    * At about 5% it causes stimulation of the respiratory centre, dizziness, confusion and difficulty in breathing accompanied by headache and shortness of breath.
    * At about 8% it causes headache, sweating, dim vision, tremor and loss of consciousness after exposure for between five and ten minutes.

    Carbon dioxide dissolves in blood plasma to form carbonic acid, and lowers pH. It also forms carbaminohaemoglobin. These both lower haemoglobin's affinity for oxygen, resulting in increased unloading of oxygen at the bodily tissues. I suspect this is the 'rather pleasant' sensation you get from CO2, as your muscles are being provided surplus oxygen.

    I would not reccomend using CO2 to improve health, however, as it is slightly toxic, and also lower affinity for oxygen in haemoglobin reduces the total amount of oxygen carried.
    I believe you are quoting the effects of carbonic acid. At very low levels carbonic acid might cause this effect.

    It was suggested that using carbonic acid could revive patients who were caused to become unconscious in natural gas fumes. One problem with patients that have been gassed is that they are prone to stop breathing. They are over medicated basically. The carbonic acid naturally stimulates their lungs. You have to provide some other gas, like oxygen as well.

    If you look at the history of carbon dioxide in chemical books. You will see they synonymously called carbon dioxide, carbonic acid. Today we can laugh about the levels of purity they must have had in those days. This was up until about World War Two.
    But since some of the misunderstanding is still making it into modern science. I think it is less funny then it may appear to be.

    I know that many modern scientists still think that carbon dioxide is asphyxiating like soda water. When I know that guys use it in basements running all day long to keep their plants in the gas to help them grow. The basement is just filled with CO2 gas. So it is not as asphyxiating as some would have you believe.

    I have breathed the gas from fire extinguishers, and their CO2 output is sometimes chocking and asphyxiating. Some more then others. The reason carbonic acid is formed. It is no longer pure CO2 vapor.

    But I have the older texts and they use carbonic acid and Carbon dioxide CO2 synonymously/interchangeably. Yet today we know they are two different chemicals. With two very different effects. If anyone is interested let me know I will scan them in.

    The more modern texts no longer list them as synonymous. They are under two separate listings.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    What do you do to yourself all day? Prolonged exposure to CO2, breathing in the gas from fire extinguishers? ARE YOU MAD?

    Anyway, what kind of temperature would you have to freeze air down to to get a liquid... perhaps this could lead to snorting frozen air at extreem tempertures?
     

  33. #32  
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    76 deg kelvin
     

  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick

    I am many things but rarely a liar.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    By the statement posted above are we supposed to be put at ease when we read your scientific explanations because you rarely lie or should we be very leary of everything you have to say? I'm now inclined to believe that by your own admission you have times at which you are incapable of telling the truth even if it is as you say a rare event. Do to the fact that I don't have the innate ability to read minds, I will have to assume that everything you've written is not to be trusted.

    When a person that is unlearned and ignorant in the ways of science comes here for a well thought out and knowledgable answer to a scientific question, at what point are we supposed to know which statement is truth and which is total fantasy(lie).

    I'm new to this forum and I'm trying to learn, but from what i've read from your post with all fairness to your statement I would be better off asking my dog a scientific question and put it to practice than anything i've read from you.
    Science begins with an open mind and not being afraid to think outside the box.
     

  35. #34  
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    haha, that's quite true! ^.^
     

  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nogold4u
    .... from what i've read from your post with all fairness to your statement I would be better off asking my dog a scientific question and put it to practice than anything i've read from you.
    Not if your dog is an Irish wolf hound. They are notorious for their inability to handle calculus and most of them dispute Big Bang Theory.

    Welcome to the forum.
     

  37. #36  
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    How long is Chemboy going to let the Wild Willy show go on? Just send his crap straight to trash can and be done with it. Furthermore look a all the space wasted on this loon, it would be better if forum members just ignored his drivel and quit trying to reason with a stump. I sent a PM to Chemboy awhile back with no reply so I'm taking it to the forum enough is enough. opinion is for politics and religion,science deals in facts.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nogold4u
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick

    I am many things but rarely a liar.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    By the statement posted above are we supposed to be put at ease when we read your scientific explanations because you rarely lie or should we be very leary of everything you have to say? I'm now inclined to believe that by your own admission you have times at which you are incapable of telling the truth even if it is as you say a rare event. Do to the fact that I don't have the innate ability to read minds, I will have to assume that everything you've written is not to be trusted.

    When a person that is unlearned and ignorant in the ways of science comes here for a well thought out and knowledgable answer to a scientific question, at what point are we supposed to know which statement is truth and which is total fantasy(lie).

    I'm new to this forum and I'm trying to learn, but from what i've read from your post with all fairness to your statement I would be better off asking my dog a scientific question and put it to practice than anything i've read from you.
    Actually I was referring to school. And the silly rules that I was subject to, but did not agree with. I felt it was easier to tell a few white lies. Rather then disassemble the school.

    Sometimes I am polite, that could be a lie. Occasionally, I will omit a little fact here or there. So as not to arouse an argument, or start a lengthy debate. About something that I already have taken care of. But do not have the time to explain the whole situation. I consider that good judgement, and proper communication.

    Now I cannot argue with you that you may gain more from talking to your dog, and maybe later in a cell talking with the son of Sam cereal killer. But you are lying when you claim my information is wrong. I work with this stuff.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
     

  39. #38  
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    And you sir, in apolite way ,are full of it.
    I have yet to read ANYTHING in your posts that is FACTUAL.
    Human beings can live breathing pure helium for instance????
    JUST go away and spare us all..
     

  40. #39  
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    I have tried breathing pure helium with a canister before. After a few breaths I nearly passed out. I assure you, you need oxygen.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
     

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