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Thread: Alkaloid

  1. #1 Alkaloid 
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    Alkaloid contain nitrogen atoms is it possible to remove the nitrogen from the alkaloid.


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  3. #2  
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    Well, I'm not sure why you'd want to...if the nitrogen's not there it's not an alkaloid anymore. Why do you want to know?


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  4. #3  
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    Need more details. You could burn it and collect the gasses, but I doubt that is what you mean.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemboy
    Well, I'm not sure why you'd want to...if the nitrogen's not there it's not an alkaloid anymore. Why do you want to know?
    i dont care if it turn into something else i just want to remove the nitrogen from the alkaloid and turn it into something else.


    Quote Originally Posted by farmboy
    Need more details. You could burn it and collect the gasses, but I doubt that is what you mean.
    yup, that way to complex i want it to be quick like just add a chemical in and it will change to other thing.
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  6. #5  
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    It's not that simple. The nitrogen atoms are really built into the main structure of the molecules, I doubt there's an easy way to remove them without completely compromising the identity of the molecule. Not only would you end up with something different, it might split into multiple molecules. I'm really kind of guessing here, but it's guessing based on a knowledge of chemistry, and common sense.
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  7. #6  
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    out of the atom: carbon , hydrogen , nitrogen , and oxygen which is the easiest to remove from a molecule? At school i did a lab once that we remove hydrogen from something by adding acid in it, and we collected the hydrogen. I think it acid we added in. It doesn't have to be nitrogen it can be another atom to remove, is that possible.
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  8. #7  
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    Could you give us a few more details, it is certainly possible to remove specific atoms from molecules, but there are just so many variables to consider that your question isn't really answerable as it stands.

    Which alkaloid is it you are dealing with. Why do you want to remove an atom? Do you need to keep the atom that you are removing or the rest of what was the alkaloid.
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  9. #8  
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    C7H7NO2 that the molecule and it call Trigonelline. i want both of them if possible, the removed atom and remain of alkaloid.
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  10. #9  
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    Sorry, your question is still really unclear. Let me see if I understand correctly. You want to remove an atom from that molecule, but it doesn't matter which atom. You want to be able to seperate the molecule and the atom you have removed at the end of the reaction.

    I still have a few more questions. Firstly does it have to be a single atom, or can it be a group of atoms, and secondly can we add more atoms to the molecule whilst we are taking other ones off. When you have an aromatic ring like that, the majority of the chemistry is going to be substitution or addition.

    If you could just tell us what you want to know this information for, then i'd be able to give a better answer.
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  11. #10  
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    I wonder if he wants this trigonelline (there's a picture on Wikipedia), but with a carbon in place of the nitrogen...
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  12. #11  
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    yes i want to remove atom and doesn't matter which it is. It can be group of atoms and also you can add more atom to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chemboy
    I wonder if he wants this trigonelline (there's a picture on Wikipedia), but with a carbon in place of the nitrogen...
    i saw the picture, why you said "a carbon in place of the nitrogen" is that picture wrong?
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  13. #12  
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    The picture probably isn't wrong. You're aiming to remove the nitrogen from an alkaloid, and if you remove the nitrogen from that particular molecule the kind of most natural choice of another atom in that place would be carbon... But your objective here really aren't clear enough for us to really help you... What are you ultimately trying to achieve here?
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  14. #13  
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    I'm trying to find what the easiest way to change the alkaloid to another molecule.
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  15. #14  
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    Hmm, well that makes quite a big difference. From wikipedia ''Alkaloids are naturally occurring chemical compounds containing basic nitrogen atoms.'' If you are trying to turn your molecule into anything but an alkaloid then it is the nitrogen that you need to be concerned with, the rest of the molecule is irrelevant.

    The first option would be to try to remove the nitrogen from the ring, unfortunately i'm not sure how you would go about doing that. It would most likely be an extremely complicated process also. An alternative (though this really is just a guess) might be to remove the basicity on the nitrogen by addition of an electron withdrawing group (chlorine perhaps, or I suppose even just hydrogen might work) to the meta position on the ring whilst leaving the other hydrogen there as well. This might force nitrogen to donate its lone pair to the ring to retain its aromaticity. Technically the molecule would no longer be an alkaloid. A change in the methyl group on the nitrogen may also produce a similar result.


    EDIT
    Just re-read your last post myscience. Do you mean that you just want to change it to any other molecule? It would be easy to make it into another molecule, however the new molecule would still be an alkaloid. Would that be acceptable?
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  16. #15  
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    Just re-read your last post myscience. Do you mean that you just want to change it to any other molecule? It would be easy to make it into another molecule, however the new molecule would still be an alkaloid. Would that be acceptable?
    that will be fine, how to change it?
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  17. #16  
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    Try adding a source of -OH, followed by K3Fe(CN)6 as an oxidising agent. The OH should add to the carbon next to the nitrogen. The oxidising agent reduces the OH to a ketone, and eliminates the other hydrogen on the carbon. That works in theory, but whether it is viable in practice is another matter.

    Are you going to try to do this in real life, or just need to know how you would do it? If it is the former, make sure you know what you are doing before hand for safety.

    Also why do you need to do it? It is a strange request.
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  18. #17  
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    I'm trying to find a place that i can do it. My school is poor so i can't do it there, dont have the materials i need or they too cheap to let me use it. Do you know a place something like a lab that can let High School Student perform such thing.

    While i think in science there no such thing call weird, all those invention are sometime created by mistake when people are curious and experiment with them.
    In America all those people are smoking, because they addicted to nicotine. I'm thinking why try to quit smoking slowly by using nicotine-free smoke or the gum when you can just shot some chemical into the body and make it into another thing.
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  19. #18  
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    This this thing safe to do at home and what kind of materials do i need if i want to do at home?
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  20. #19  
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    Honestly if you're going to try something like that it wouldn't hurt to have extensive knowledge of organic and biochemistry. Your idea is certainly not a bad one but to really get anywhere with it you need a lot of base knowledge.

    The one thing that came to my mind just now is that you have to know that whatever the alkaloid is converted into isn't toxic. If you don't have access to a lab and/or equipment a problem will be identification of the resulting compound, isolation of the alkaloid such as nicotine, etc. What knowledge do you have of chemistry right now?
    "There is a kind of lazy pleasure in useless and out-of-the-way erudition." -Jorge Luis Borges
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  21. #20  
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    I wouldn't do it on organ on the first step so i dont have to worry biochemistry or it being toxic. First it be just on Trigonelline because it nontoxic and easy to find. I finish high student school chemistry.
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  22. #21  
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    I'm really nt trying to be obtuse, but could you please explain a little more clearly what you want to do? What are your objectives? Also where are you from?
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  23. #22  
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    To change one molecule to another.

    Also where are you from?
    Im at new york now why you ask?
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmboy
    I'm really nt trying to be obtuse, but could you please explain a little more clearly what you want to do? What are your objectives? Also where are you from?
    I believe he or she is trying to find a way to convert unwanted alkaloids in the body such as nicotine into inactive substances, thus eliminating addiction and such.

    myscience: Here's a fair question for you: assuming you found a reaction that you thought would alter the molecule in question sufficiently, how do you then verify that it has become what you intended it to be?
    "There is a kind of lazy pleasure in useless and out-of-the-way erudition." -Jorge Luis Borges
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  25. #24  
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    I'm a he.

    Put chemical into a human body is a dangerous thing so i wouldnt do it. It can alter the molecule but it might also cause another problem, I dont know what it will do when it enter the body. Therefore i wouldnt do it on any organism.

    Here what ill do. Put the cigarette in the water overnight. The nicotine should be in the water next morning. Then add K3Fe(CN)6 in it as farmboy said for oxidising agent. To see if it change.

    Here so question, do i have to burn them or just leave it and it change slowly?
    How to test if it changed?
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  26. #25  
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    Alright, there are a few problems that I can see. Firstly you said the molecule you wanted to modify was trigonelline, and the answer I gave was for that molecule, I'm not sure if nicotine would react under these conditions.

    Second, sticking a cigarette into water isn't going to give you pure nicotine, there will be an awful lot of other chemicals in there too that will make getting any sort of decent result unlikely.

    Thirdly, in practice, the reaction will not be anywhere near as simple as what I have posted. I just gave an example of theoretical conditions under which that reaction might take place, attempting it in real life is going to require someone skilled in practical chemistry. Some of the reactants or products could be extremely dangerous, so don't attempt any reactions unless you have a good idea of the risks involved, and know how to deal with them.


    To answer your questions, what exactly is it you intend to burn? Assuming you start out with pure nicotine, to find out if you have the right product will require a lot of expensive equipment, and someone who knows how to interpret the data.

    I've not got a lot of time to finish this post. So I'll just cut to the chase. I think that you really need to learn what it is you are doing before attempting any practical chemistry.
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