Thread: Double Dip Recession?

Newly released data shows that the US economy actually shrank in the 4th quarter of 2012.

The U.S. economy posted a stunning drop of 0.1 percent in the fourth quarter, defying expectations for slow growth and possibly providing incentive for more Federal Reserve stimulus.

The economy shrank from October through December for the first time since the recession ended, hurt by the biggest cut in defense spending in 40 years, fewer exports and sluggish growth in company stockpiles.
The Commerce Department said Wednesday that the economy contracted at an annual rate of 0.1 percent in the fourth quarter. That's a sharp slowdown from the 3.1 percent growth rate in the July-September quarter.
The surprise contraction could raise fears about the economy's ability to handle tax increases that took effect in January and looming spending cuts.

GDP Shows Surprise Drop for US in Fourth Quarter

One definition of a recession is "two down consecutive quarters of GDP". One more to go and we've got the dreaded double dip....................

Originally Posted by madanthonywayne

Newly released data shows that the US economy actually shrank in the 4th quarter of 2012.

The U.S. economy posted a stunning drop of 0.1 percent in the fourth quarter, defying expectations for slow growth and possibly providing incentive for more Federal Reserve stimulus.

The economy shrank from October through December for the first time since the recession ended, hurt by the biggest cut in defense spending in 40 years, fewer exports and sluggish growth in company stockpiles.
The Commerce Department said Wednesday that the economy contracted at an annual rate of 0.1 percent in the fourth quarter. That's a sharp slowdown from the 3.1 percent growth rate in the July-September quarter.
The surprise contraction could raise fears about the economy's ability to handle tax increases that took effect in January and looming spending cuts.

GDP Shows Surprise Drop for US in Fourth Quarter

One definition of a recession is "two down consecutive quarters of GDP". One more to go and we've got the dreaded double dip....................

What is more telling, more reveling, is that the government could not and cannot do anything else than what they are already doing. They have put interest rates basically at 0, the US Government, state governments and the fed are dumping about 10 trillion dollars into the economy each year, and the economy is and has been going down the toilet. Obama economics, and his agenda, are garbage. They are very dangerous for the american people and freedom/liberty.

The US government is doing everything they can, in their opinion, to make this economy boom and yet this economy of Obama's is pure garbage. Perhaps this is the reason Obama gave himself the authority to declare Marshall law in the US during Peacetime. Perhaps this is why Obama's domestic agencies HDS and ICE have stockpiled over half a billion rounds of man killing bullets. Perhaps this is why any and all US citizens on american soil can be killed, captured or held indefinitely in prison by Obama without due process. Perhaps this is why Obama is militarizing federal, state and local police forces. Perhaps this is why he is using drones and spy satellites on the American people without warrants. Perhaps this is why he taps into Americans phones, computers and all electronic communications without warrants.

The last time we had a wacko Liberal Democrat in the white house Ronald Reagan had to come in and fix it.. This is what he saw and this was some of the beliefs and principles he applied in order to save america from destruction due to the wacko's crazy policies and agendas.

We did not learn or we have forgotten though, and now we have another one in Obama.

Ronald Reagan
"The federal government has taken too much tax money from the people, too much authority from the states, and too much liberty with the Constitution."

"Extreme taxation, excessive controls, oppressive government competition with business, frustrated minorities and forgotten Americans are not the products of free enterprise. They are the residue of centralized bureaucracy, of government by a self-anointed elite."

"We need true tax reform that will at least make a start toward restoring for our children the American Dream that wealth is denied to no one, that each individual has the right to fly as high as his strength and ability will take him. . . . But we cannot have such reform while our tax policy is engineered by people who view the tax as a means of achieving changes in our social structure."

"You and I are told we must choose between a left or right, but I suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down. Up to man's age-old dream -- the maximum of individual freedom consistent with order -- or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. Regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would sacrifice freedom for security have embarked on this downward path. Plutarch warned, 'The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits.' "

"Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.... We've been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. Well, if no one among us is capable of government himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? All of us together, in and out of government, must bear the burden. The solutions we seek must be equitable, with no one group singled out to pay a higher price."

Obama says and believes the exact opposite. High taxes, class warfare, big powerful government that pushes, sets and controls all.... hand outs, favoritism for some, hatred for others, bounties, donations, benefits, etc... Every president before him, throughout all of American history, the United States accumulated 9 trillion in debt, and now, Obama will add at least 11 trillion in debt with his elitist, anti-individual, government power and control beliefs and agenda.

The same Reagan that raised taxes, over and over and over and over and over again..at least once a year between 1982 and 1987? That one? You see there's the ideological charatiture of Reagan painted by extreme right which has monopolized the Republican party, and there's the real pragmatic often willing to compromise to solve problems Reagan most moderate republicans remember (like this one).

Perhaps this is the reason Obama gave himself the authority to declare Marshall law in the US during Peacetime.

Just curious when you think this happened. But we can get into the legal authority to do so implicit in suspension of habeas corpus, (Article 1, Sec 9) and activation of the militia in time of rebellion or invasion (Article 1, section 8) of the US Constitution and upheld by the courts through the years.

Of course it would be even better to point to specific verifiable events instead of make sweeping broad brush statement seemingly pulled of a Rush Limbaugh cereal ad--but I guess that might be too much to ask for?

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

The same Reagan that raised taxes, over and over and over and over and over again..at least once a year between 1982 and 1987? That one? You see there's the ideological charatiture of Reagan painted by extreme right which has monopolized the Republican party, and there's the real pragmatic often willing to compromise to solve problems Reagan most moderate republicans remember (like this one).

Perhaps this is the reason Obama gave himself the authority to declare Marshall law in the US during Peacetime.

Just curious when you think this happened. But we can get into the legal authority to do so implicit in suspension of habeas corpus, (Article 1, Sec 9) and activation of the militia in time of rebellion or invasion (Article 1, section 8) of the US Constitution and upheld by the courts through the years.

Of course it would be even better to point to specific verifiable events instead of make sweeping broad brush statement seemingly pulled of a Rush Limbaugh cereal ad--but I guess that might be too much to ask for?

Here is a nice link from huffington post explaining the new Executive Order powers to you.

What about those other things? The Debt? Drones? Obama killing americans overseas? I get it though, or am I wrong, Obama can do anything and other democrats will support him and his actions 100%? Know this though, a republican will be president again, and when they use these tyrannical and barbaric tactics/actions on people and groups, you have to support their actions as well, right? Instead of calling ron paul supporters, libertarians and tea party people terrorist or people who need to be watched, the republican president will now be able to go after democrats and democrat groups with the full power and might of the American government, and they can do it without due process or warrants. They can do it just because they feel like it.

Good Progress. You see the new executive powers should have been a thread in its own right and it would have been far more credible without the hatred filled generalizations you also made in the OP. I'll take a look!

I'm a republican Gonz, I'm generally against expansions of government power when there's a equally viable solution to fix problems. I didn't not support the first patriot act (GW Bush), think the 2nd one was better (Obama) but still too broad and most likely will agree with you about the new executive power once I do a bit of homework.

In the meantime, since the new EO is nearly a year old, there's been a chance for some analysis by others. Here's one take the claim about it's overreach are overreaction and little more than an continuation of policies that go back to President Truman:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/ndrp.asp

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Good Progress. You see the new executive powers should have been a thread in its own right and it would have been far more credible without the hatred filled generalizations you also made in the OP. I'll take a look!

I'm a republican Gonz, I'm generally against expansions of government power when there's a equally viable solution to fix problems. I didn't not support the first patriot act (GW Bush), think the 2nd one was better (Obama) but still too broad and most likely will agree with you about the new executive power once I do a bit of homework.

Fair enough Fox.. It was just a small point showing how Obama's ideas, faith and use of government and governments have hurt this economy... To elaborate on just the one point you brought up, the government has been making a push over the last 11 years or so to point its might and power at and towards the american people, and that push has increased in its speed and voracity over the last few years. For me, it all ties into the economy and the current economic conditions though.

When DHS and ICE ordered over 600,000 million rounds of man killing ammo for itself (they are not the military, they are civilian agents, and the ammo is not for target practice), most scratched their heads, knew it was not right but, could not figure out why they needed it.

Then drones, tanks, fully auto machine guns, military armored vehicles, etc., all started going to civilian police forces... Why? They are getting billions in vouchers from the Obama admin to acquire military vehicles, crafts and arms.. Why?

Civilian police are also, according to reports, being shown, trained and allowed to tap into peoples cell phones without warrants.. What are they doing?

Military satellites being pointed at america and Americans?

The president signing a bill that makes US soil, right now, a battlefield? What is that about? Peacetime Marshall law powers for the president?

What are they up to? What are they preparing for? I surely do not know and I am not claiming to know but, answers would be nice.

If you think John Doe down the road from you does not need an 11 round magazine, why does your local police force need to be militarized with drones, heavy armored military vehicles and any and everything else their vouchers can buy from the military?

Like it or not though, Obama is a part of it. He is in the driver seat.

Is it possible, due to the fact that the american government prepares for everything (sane or not), that all this maneuvering is due to the government being prepared, or preparing, to use it on the american people? Economic collapse? Unrest? Global warming? Political decedents? All of the above, a basic fear of the american people for many different reasons or under certain situations/conditions? Why point all that firepower and military might inwards if it was not meant for being prepared, or preparing, to use it against the american people?

For me though, it is all about money, economics. Everything in government revolves around it, and these actions by Obama were just one small point I was making to explain his beliefs concerning what government is and what it should be doing. Best case scenario he is wasting billions of dollars doing these things and worst case scenario he plans on using these measures/powers on the american people.. Either way, it shows his beliefs and ideas concerning how big, powerful and strong government should be, and it shows what he thinks the roll of government is or should be vs the roll of the people and what their rights and liberties should be. All of which, his beliefs and ideas, are bad for the economy.

The numbers, if true are probably much less alarming to me than you Gonzales, because I've worked with ammunition at military Corp Level.

This post explains the number in a much more reasonable way and show through a combination of necessary training and a few years stockpile, can easily add up to those numbers. No reason to fabricate an hidden, paranoid-based agenda, or imply there's any agenda by the White house. It's pretty much simple math.
DHS 450 million round ammo purchase: Is there something else going on? (update II) | constitutionalley.us

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And unless you narrow the scope of this thread--I'm going to shut it or you down. Your choice.

So lets just focus on the economy since OP was pretty narrow and we should be fair tomadanthonywayne

What tools does the federal reserve have left? Rates are already near zero.

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

What tools does the federal reserve have left? Rates are already near zero.

Running out of monatary policy space just means that you have to use fiscal policy - but good luck on pushing through the required federal spending required with the "starve the beast" mentality of majority of congress.

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

The numbers, if true are probably much less alarming to me than you Gonzales, because I've worked with ammunition at military Corp Level.

This post explains the number in a much more reasonable way and show through a combination of necessary training and a few years stockpile, can easily add up to those numbers. No reason to fabricate an hidden, paranoid-based agenda, or imply there's any agenda by the White house. It's pretty much simple math.
DHS 450 million round ammo purchase: Is there something else going on? (update II) | constitutionalley.us

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And unless you narrow the scope of this thread--I'm going to shut it or you down. Your choice.

So lets just focus on the economy since OP was pretty narrow and we should be fair tomadanthonywayne

They might use very expensive tactical hollow points for target practice (450 million of them) but, I know of no one who does. Very unusual to do so IMO. They are just not target/practice rounds.

Originally Posted by river_rat

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

What tools does the federal reserve have left? Rates are already near zero.

Running out of monatary policy space just means that you have to use fiscal policy - but good luck on pushing through the required federal spending required with the "starve the beast" mentality of majority of congress.

There is really nothing the fed or government (as if they are independent) can do outside of balancing the budget and paying down the debt.. Anything and everything else they do will just hurt/harm the economy further.

A lot of people do not realize how fragile, stressed and just about broken the economy is due the over creation of us dollars for consumption combined with the supply side of the current economy, and how quick it can and will get out of control. Creating more us dollars to consume products and goods that the United States does no make or produce will continue to do nothing but hurt/harm the economy in the United States.

Roads used to be a good investment when they were used for the transportation of american made goods and products. Now they are used for the consumption of foreign made goods and products. This reality benefits foreign nations and their people, not Americans.

Endlessly creating and using US dollars for consumption leads to inflation (a weaker and weaker dollar), debt and poverty, and if the creation of these dollars continue in order to boost consumption then severe inflation will occur due to the weakening of the dollar and the reality of supply side economics, and the debt will spiral even more so out of control.

The US cant keep creating and distributing money so the american people can buy the worlds goods and products.

There is really nothing the fed or government (as if they are independent) can do outside of balancing the budget and paying down the debt.. Anything and everything else they do will just hurt/harm the economy further.

I tend to agree. I also see this quarterly downturn as probably pain worth having, since most of it was the result of defense budget cuts--things that in the long run will help reduce the debt (or at least slow down its rise).

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Good Progress. You see the new executive powers should have been a thread in its own right and it would have been far more credible without the hatred filled generalizations you also made in your first post......

You are, I assume, referring to the first post made by gonzales56 and not the OP.

Originally Posted by madanthonywayne

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Good Progress. You see the new executive powers should have been a thread in its own right and it would have been far more credible without the hatred filled generalizations you also made in the OP......

You are, I assume, referring to the first post made by gonzales56 and not the OP.

Yea..

I do not mind the notion and/or enforcement on this forum that Obama's taxes, big government spending, class warfare, political/economic ideology, etc., are not allowed concerning an economic topic if they are not pro-Obama or paint Obama in a good light. I learned it is considered hate speech on this forum, and I will not do it again here.

Lesson learned.

The Democratic party's response to this news:

The Democratic Party’s communications director Brad Woodhouse quoted an economist to call the result “the best-looking contraction in US GDP you’ll ever see.”
Read more at Someone Should Tell Obama It

Originally Posted by madanthonywayne

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Good Progress. You see the new executive powers should have been a thread in its own right and it would have been far more credible without the hatred filled generalizations you also made in your first post......

You are, I assume, referring to the first post made by gonzales56 and not the OP.

Yes.

Originally Posted by madanthonywayne

The Democratic party's response to this news:

The Democratic Party’s communications director Brad Woodhouse quoted an economist to call the result “the best-looking contraction in US GDP you’ll ever see.”
Read more at Someone Should Tell Obama It

What is so good looking about it?

Originally Posted by gonzales56

Originally Posted by madanthonywayne

The Democratic party's response to this news:

The Democratic Party’s communications director Brad Woodhouse quoted an economist to call the result “the best-looking contraction in US GDP you’ll ever see.”
Read more at Someone Should Tell Obama It

What is so good looking about it?

The fact that Obama was in power when it happened. How can something bad happen when Obama is in power?