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Thread: How high-income economy system could exist?

  1. #101  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Personally, I would prefer to live in 1950-th or 60-th under condition of low unemployment
    Unemployment 1960: 5.5%
    Unemployment 2007: 4.6%

    and lot of good jobs available
    Lots of good jobs available today as well.


    One of the marks of our time is unemployed, fat, computer nerd who lives with parents and has no family.
    And one of the marks of the 1960's was the drugged-up hippie with syphilis who went around selling drugs, hating America and having sex in his VW microbus*. Is that where we want to return to?

    (* - just as good a stereotype as the fat nerd)

    Practically ALL "developed countries" are capable to replace population only because of immigration.
    That's a good thing.

    Sorry, but without normal population replacement you have no people and without people you cannot have ANY social system.
    With "normal" population growth you have overpopulation, disease, famine and worldwide economic, social and environmental collapse. That's worse.
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  2. #102  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty88 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Achilleas View Post
    So, I guess we are the minority here :P

    We all live in capitalist countries and is more than normal to buy goods produced under these circumstances. How could I ever use a computer or any other good produced in a system that doesn't even exist? (exception, I have an old uusr clock from my granda but, that's not the system I'm talking about)

    There are thousands of fields comprising hundreds of millions if not billions of devices, gadgets, parts, science, and knowledge that have been the result of capitalism in one way or another. One reason why is due to competition, which drives innovation and in turn increases growth.
    You said the magic word. Competition. That's what makes capitalism go round. More than 70% of this thread is about competition. Through competition production is increased, innovations are discovered, productivity grows, etc. But, at the same time through competition are generated unemployment, bubbles, inequalities, profitability slows down and real wages are falling. That's a contradiction, isn't it? And that should be my conclusion. These phenomena are the two sides of the same coin. Someone can focus on the one side or the other but under capitalism I can't see a way to eliminate the negative phenomena. Is that a problem? For some people, maybe not. For others, it is. It's a matter of understanding, personal interests and preferences, etc.
    Can you provide any facts to back that claim up? Specifically that competition generates unemployment bubbles, slows down profitability, and leads to a decline in real-wages. The rest of what you've said is quite frankly speculation.

    I will say that there is no such thing as a "perfect" model, only that some models work better than others and some economic ideologies are more fortified against economic downturns than others. The USSR was a perfect example of why communism doesn't work; The U.S. has historically had the best representation of a capitalist society operating within a free-market economy guided by an invisible hand to date. Things are different right now than they have been historically which is sad but we still have a pretty good idea about what works and what doesn't.



    Cheers!
    I will provide both logical and empirical facts (hopefully be free license materials) but maybe tomorrow since it'll take some time to put the references and charts & make sure it's still a reader-friendly post.

    There will never be a perfect model since everything change. Yes, US can be considered as the heart of capitalism alongside maybe UK.

    cheers mate
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  4. #104  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Well, but population growth well below population replacement level among skilled part of population is where a real crisis of a social system starts in my understanding.
    Skills are not heritable. I design cellphones and wireless power systems; my great grandmother picked silkworms in Italy.
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  6. #106  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Various studies have found the heritability of IQ to be between 0.7 and 0.8 in adults and 0.45 in childhood in the United States.A 1994 review in Behavior Genetics based on identical/fraternal twin studies found that heritability is as high as 0.80 in general cognitive ability. Reports in Current Directions in Psychological Science gave an overall estimate of around .85 for 18-year-olds and older. Heritability of IQ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Ah, you are talking about IQ, not skills. In that case you are much better off with immigrants; people who are smart/capable enough to leave their homes and strike out for somewhere else are generally smarter than average.
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  8. #108  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    So if their home countries will loose smart people and will be depleted from smart people then it still doesn't change global worldwide equation.
    Right. Countries with a lot of immigrants benefit, and the countries they are leaving don't do so well. But overall the two balance out, since you're not killing people off.
    But countries who supply smart immigrants are not bottomless and what global equation says? Right - total amount of smart people in the World is diminishing.
    No, it's remaining the same - they are just moving around.
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    [QUOTE=Stanley514;473428]
    Japan has negative population growth already.
    Excellent. They lead the world in many things. Best for all of us is the whole world follow.
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  12. #112  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I do not know what was average educational level of hippies and their common skills.
    Don't know or unwilling to state what most of us already know: They were in fact the most educated group of young people the nation had up to that point. I'd also argue the most informed about global events and arguable had the strongest sense of the systemic social injustices that plagued the nation-an awareness they'd eventually act on and profoundly change their nation for the better.
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    Can you provide any facts to back that claim up? Specifically that competition generates unemployment bubbles, slows down profitability, and leads to a decline in real-wages. The rest of what you've said is quite frankly speculation.
    I've been busy lately sorry for my late response.

    "What competition, first in a single sphere, achieves is a single market- value and market price derived from the various individual values of commodities. And it is competition of capitals in different spheres, which first brings about the price of production equalizing the rates of profit in the different spheres. The latter process requires a higher development of capitalist production than the previous one. "( Marx, Capital, vol. III, p. 180)

    In short, the 2 aspects of competition leads to a general rate of profit even though prices between sectors may (and always) differ.
    If we focus on the competition within industries we may notice that this "battle" is fought by cheapening the commodities (ceteris paribus, quality, diversification, etc). The cheapness of commodities depends, ceteris paribus, on the productiveness of labour and this again on the scale of production. Therefore, the larger capitals beat the smaller.
    If we focus on the competition between industries, we may notice the tendency for equalization of the inter-industry rates of profit. In econometric terms we should expect that the time series data of the deviation of an industry’s profit rate from the economy’s average rate of profit should be fixed.
    (to be continued)
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    Now, in order to create a model that describes the motion of rate of profit (and thus to some extent, the motion of wages) we may use some few mathematics: r= s/C= s/l/C/l

    where, r= rate of profit, l= total labour time, l=s+v (s+v= surplus + necessary labour time), C ́=C/l, s ́=s/l, v ́=v/l
    Thus,
    r= s'/C'
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    If we assume that C' grows with a rate equal to a and that variable capital declines with a rate β, then we find out that:

    C'(t)=C'(o)(1+a)^t, ν'(t)=ν'(0)(1-β)^t
    and s'(t)=1-ν'(0)(1-β)^t
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    So, the rate of profit dynamicly wil be:

    r(t)= [1- v'(0)(1-β)^t]/ [C'(0)(1+a)^t]

    You can notice that as t tends to infinity, r tends to 0. That's how profitability slows down and crises occur. You may also solve for t, finding out the time period that crisis occurs.

    This tendency can be countered (among others) by increasing s', thus, by decreasing the real wage or by keeping real wage growth at a lower rate than the productivity growth. That' how the above graphs may be explained and that's why I claimed that there's a tendency for real wages to drop (to be more accurate, real wages as % of total income).

    As far as it concenrs bubbles, well, always banking is onvoled and in order to model a bubble we need non-linear dynamics (modeling eg the minsky hypothesis) which is rather difficult . (I'm already at my language limits to write in english this kind of stuff in a forum). But I can provide some bibliography where bubbles are generated "naturally" within the financial sphere plus some historical data.
    A coherent (with the falling rate of profit) explanation of bubbles could be the concept of fictious capital. The main idea is that debts/odds are made for future production of surplus value. If this surplus value is not actually produced/realised, a bubble can occur. In other terms, fictious capital is actually the net present value of future cash flows. Capitalisation occrus, eg a firm may raise its capital by using stocks, shares and bonds. This accumulated capital must be used to produce surplus value since the fictious capital claims this future produced surplus value. Stock markets, derivatives, and other financial markets are fictious capital markets. If surplus value is not produced, these markets will collapse (and that's what have happend to a great extent).

    I hope I clarified my statements.

    (edit: sry for the number of posts, I tried to upload the equations as .jpg to be easiliy readen but due to lenght restriction I wasn't allowed to post. I as about 5000 characters while the limit is 1000)
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    where is your heel?
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  19. #119  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    where is your heel?
    in econometrics & english among others. But I'm working on that :P
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  20. #120  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Personally, I would prefer to live in 1950-th or 60-th under condition of low unemployment and lot of good jobs available without computers, Internet and cellphones rather than now in times of high (and ever increasing in potential) unemployment and Internet. One of the marks of our time is unemployed, fat, computer nerd who lives with parents and has no family. Is modern economic and social system going in right direction? Lets look at demographic processes. Practically ALL "developed countries" are capable to replace population only because of immigration. Mostly those immigrants are low skilled. An average level of skills among population is steadily declining. NONE of the "developed countries" was capable to propose real solution to this problem. If this trends will continue, in the next 30 years the "first world" will be on half-way to become part of "third world". This is definitely not a sign of a progressive system. Sorry, but without normal population replacement you have no people and without people you cannot have ANY social system.
    Just a few quick comments about your Computer and Gaming hate...

    Without Computers, we wouldn't have advanced as far as we have in the field of Robotics.
    Robotics does a lot of hard-core, repetitive tasks, efficiently, safely, and with more precision than a human can muster consistently, over the course of an average human's career (40 years).
    Certain manufacturing techniques are either impossible, or cost prohibitive, for a human to do.
    They can also help us explore the space; expanding our knowledge of how the universe works.

    Gaming is a gateway for many young people, to become interested in Computers and Science.
    Also, in 2001, Gamers cracked an enzyme riddle that could help find an AIDS cure.

    If we didn't have computers, and never make them, then we can't someday build a mega laser array on the far side of the moon, and/or mass drivers, to vaporize extention-level-event comets and meteors, before they smack into earth. Why build them there? Because they could never be pointed at the Earth.

    You know, we, as a species, need to eventually colonize outer space. The sun isn't going to last forever. There's a lot of stuff flying around in space that is too big to vaporize with a laser, or pulverize with mass drivers.

    Technology, Advanced Maths, Observation, Experimentation, Exploration, and Innovation are necessary, in order to ensure the longevity of the Human Race.

    *
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    Eh? The Sun won't turn into a white dwarf for billions of years to come.

    Most likely homo sapiens won't exist then, or a new genus in the Hominiae line will emerge.

    I think if we contain the global population and limit emissions, the world won't "collapse" as most would cite.

    That said, people who hate modern technology make me laugh whilst using the Internet, using a smartphone, lol..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    And one of the marks of the 1960's was the drugged-up hippie with syphilis who went around selling drugs, hating America and having sex in his VW microbus*. Is that where we want to return to?

    (* - just as good a stereotype as the fat nerd)
    Maybe I made mistake when I used term "nerd" in particular. Rather I would say "looser", "computer worm" or some other degrading creature. I do not know what was average educational level of hippies and their common skills. But I guess that even in the 1960-th there were not as many loosers among those who do not use drugs and have at least some education beyond high school. There were not as many childless people among educated people either.
    I don't think you have very accurate ideals.

    Most younger people use computers for fun or for work, and have done so ever since computers became mainstream in homes. And that has been 20 years or so now. very few live in basements, and are fat and have no life. And ICT has made the modern world possible.

    I think people hate digital technology since it's not mechanical, it's an irrational hatred. It's like somebody in the late Neolithic hating bronze tools, duh, they're simply better.
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  23. #123  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    (* - just as good a stereotype as the fat nerd)
    Maybe I made mistake when I used term "nerd" in particular. Rather I would say "looser", "computer worm" or some other degrading creature.[/quote]

    Keep in mind that you are now posting on a network designed by a "looser," using a computer designed by a computer worm, posting on a forum whose code was written by a nerd. Their hard work, ironically, allows you to get online and call them names.
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  24. #124  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    (* - just as good a stereotype as the fat nerd)
    Maybe I made mistake when I used term "nerd" in particular. Rather I would say "looser", "computer worm" or some other degrading creature.
    Keep in mind that you are now posting on a network designed by a "looser," using a computer designed by a computer worm, posting on a forum whose code was written by a nerd. Their hard work, ironically, allows you to get online and call them names.[/QUOTE]

    There's no doubt, new technologies are essential for well being etc. The real question at what cost are these technologies induced to our life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achilleas View Post

    There's no doubt, new technologies are essential for well being etc. The real question at what cost are these technologies induced to our life.
    One of the problems is to many obese children, they're all permanently attached to their computers, perhaps someone should invent a computer that only works whilst you're walking around and turns off if you stop, that would help kids get some exercise and probably make the inventor a fortune in the process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Achilleas View Post

    There's no doubt, new technologies are essential for well being etc. The real question at what cost are these technologies induced to our life.
    One of the problems is to many obese children, they're all permanently attached to their computers, perhaps someone should invent a computer that only works whilst you're walking around and turns off if you stop, that would help kids get some exercise and probably make the inventor a fortune in the process.
    That is the parents fault!! Television could used the same! You limit their "gaming" or "fun" time on the computer, and require them to do other activities.
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    I'm waiting for someone to start seeing the potential to teach people how to operate robots by having them do so in video game simulations.

    I think it's the same basic skill set. If you can flip a joystick and punch buttons to make a hero dance across the screen and kill bad guys, then you should be able to use those same tools to maneuver a crane, or robotic arm, or other stuff like that while it's doing industrial work.

    When we start seriously colonizing space, almost all the work done up there will probably be using remote controlled robots, where the operator is on Earth. It's cost prohibitive to bring a large workforce physically up there. Easier to send robots (which won't need air and water), and then have the workers stay down on Earth.

    The main difference between the video game and real life will be the communication delays. Hitting the switch and then waiting several seconds for video to come back showing you what the robot actually did.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    I'm waiting for someone to start seeing the potential to teach people how to operate robots by having them do so in video game simulations.
    They do that now. Robot motion is programmed using graphical interfaces that show potential conflicts with other parts of the workspace, trajectories, end effector dimensions etc.

    If you can flip a joystick and punch buttons to make a hero dance across the screen and kill bad guys, then you should be able to use those same tools to maneuver a crane, or robotic arm, or other stuff like that while it's doing industrial work.
    Right. But it's no fun.
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    Aren't they using robots for some surgical procedures?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm waiting for someone to start seeing the potential to teach people how to operate robots by having them do so in video game simulations.

    I think it's the same basic skill set. If you can flip a joystick and punch buttons to make a hero dance across the screen and kill bad guys, then you should be able to use those same tools to maneuver a crane, or robotic arm, or other stuff like that while it's doing industrial work.

    When we start seriously colonizing space, almost all the work done up there will probably be using remote controlled robots, where the operator is on Earth. It's cost prohibitive to bring a large workforce physically up there. Easier to send robots (which won't need air and water), and then have the workers stay down on Earth.

    The main difference between the video game and real life will be the communication delays. Hitting the switch and then waiting several seconds for video to come back showing you what the robot actually did.
    I'd keep a ship in orbit and have them control the robots from there, or a base on the planet, preferably by some form of neural interface.
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    [QUOTE=Eighty88;473246]
    Quote Originally Posted by Achilleas View Post
    So, I guess we are the minority here :P

    We all live in capitalist countries and is more than normal to buy goods produced under these circumstances. How could I ever use a computer or any other good produced in a system that doesn't even exist? (exception, I have an old uusr clock from my granda but, that's not the system I'm talking about)

    There are thousands of fields comprising hundreds of millions if not billions of devices, gadgets, parts, science, and knowledge that have been the result of capitalism in one way or another. One reason why is due to competition, which drives innovation and in turn increases growth.
    You said the magic word. Competition. That's what makes capitalism go round. More than 70% of this thread is about competition. Through competition production is increased, innovations are discovered, productivity grows, etc. But, at the same time through competition are generated unemployment, bubbles, inequalities, profitability slows down and real wages are falling. That's a contradiction, isn't it? And that should be my conclusion. These phenomena are the two sides of the same coin. Someone can focus on the one side or the other but under capitalism I can't see a way to eliminate the negative phenomena. Is that a problem? For some people, maybe not. For others, it is. It's a matter of understanding, personal interests and preferences, etc.
    Can you provide any facts to back that claim up? Specifically that competition generates unemployment bubbles, slows down profitability, and leads to a decline in real-wages. The rest of what you've said is quite frankly speculation.
    Unemployment types and causes

    The U.S. has historically had the best representation of a capitalist society operating within a free-market economy guided by an invisible hand to date.

    From the link below: A system that allows a few individuals to have undemocratic control and power, not only at the workplace, but in society in general, is unacceptable; a system that allows some individuals to exploit and profit on other people’s misery is unacceptable; a system that allows more and more cash to be shuffled into the pockets of the owners and the wealthy, is unacceptable. Capitalism IS the Problem | OccupyWallSt.org (My comment) --> I don’t believe there is anything inherently wrong with theconcept of free market capitalism, but it was designed for all citizens toprofit from the fruits of their labor, not just the elite and those inleadership roles within large companies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    That's how profitability slows down and crises occur.
    The idea of profitability rate falling down is quite interesting, but could you explain it in some simple example? I do not know but if capitalism still exist this tendency probably doesn't really work?
    It's a tendency, not an inevitable outcome. That means that it when it happens, a serious endogenous crisis occurs and when counterbalancing forces dominates, investments leads to rapid growth. On my view, the most interesting thing about this tendency, is the contradiction between growth and accumulation vs limits of this accumulation and inequilibrium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    I'm waiting for someone to start seeing the potential to teach people how to operate robots by having them do so in video game simulations.
    They do that now. Robot motion is programmed using graphical interfaces that show potential conflicts with other parts of the workspace, trajectories, end effector dimensions etc.

    If you can flip a joystick and punch buttons to make a hero dance across the screen and kill bad guys, then you should be able to use those same tools to maneuver a crane, or robotic arm, or other stuff like that while it's doing industrial work.
    Right. But it's no fun.
    If the learning part is fun, more people will learn, and faster.

    If the working part isn't fun, you can always make it fun by paying the worker more to do it. It's always fun to make lots of money.

    Think of the oil fields in North Dakota. Horrible place to live. Even worse place to work. But it pays a considerably larger salary to workers who's skills wouldn't otherwise be nearly so valuable. So people go there and work anyway. It gives people who missed out on college a chance to make enough money to raise kids or care for a high maintenance girl friend (or both.)


    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post

    I'd keep a ship in orbit and have them control the robots from there, or a base on the planet, preferably by some form of neural interface.
    It just depends how costly it is to move the workers into orbit. If it's cheaper to keep them on the ground, and just work around the communication delays, then that would be the best route.

    If you can get them into space inexpensively, then a ship or space station is definitely the best option. Artificial gravity can be used to keep their bones healthy while they orbit around the moon or planet they're tele-operating robots for.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    I agree that it is possible to create economic society (based on capitalism) , In Finland where i am working in debt collection agency at http://www.ktcfinland.fi/ if i am not mistaken i already seen that they already create it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Owning a business that small would be a full time job. A 2.600.000 dollar business is hardly a megacorporation. That's like owning *maybe* two McDonald's restaurants.
    Then they may not even bother with restaurant-type business and just purchase some mediocre U.S. stocks or bonds.
    For example Dow Jones grew from 750 points in 1960 to 17.000 in 2014. How much would it be inflation adjusted?
    Significantly!
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  39. #139  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Never made that argument. Cultural is not the same as socio-economic status. My point is lower socio-economic people do in fact have lower intelligence due to a range of things including poor habits by their mothers, poor nutrition by both mother and child, poor pre-natal and childhood health care, lack of enriched homes, lack of early intervention into developmental problems and lower quality teachers in their neighborhoods. Most of these cannot be fixed by communities with few resources.
    Then there appears another problem: Eastern Europe. According to estimates of Lynn for year 2006 Germany average IQ is 99 the same as Poland, while Russian and Ukrainian 97. Actually he doesn't seem to have exact data for Ukraine, but for some reason believes that it should be "exactly the same as in Russia".
    http://gentlecynic.net/Articles/IQ%2...Inequality.pdf Yet, you could see that average levels of income in those countries are far from equal. How come?
    Not really a problem, societies which tend to help their poor avoid many of the pitfalls; this is why many poor nations do better across a wide range of health measures (e.g. lifespans, child mortality etc) than Americans, because their lowest bottom isn't as low as the desperation of many American poor.
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  40. #140  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Never made that argument. Cultural is not the same as socio-economic status. My point is lower socio-economic people do in fact have lower intelligence due to a range of things including poor habits by their mothers, poor nutrition by both mother and child, poor pre-natal and childhood health care, lack of enriched homes, lack of early intervention into developmental problems and lower quality teachers in their neighborhoods. Most of these cannot be fixed by communities with few resources.
    Then there appears another problem: Eastern Europe. According to estimates of Lynn for year 2006 Germany average IQ is 99 the same as Poland, while Russian and Ukrainian 97. Actually he doesn't seem to have exact data for Ukraine, but for some reason believes that it should be "exactly the same as in Russia".
    http://gentlecynic.net/Articles/IQ%2...Inequality.pdf Yet, you could see that average levels of income in those countries are far from equal. How come?
    It's not as simple as just IQ, unfortunately. Keeping corruption levels down is the biggest issue in having a successful economy. That and containing organized crime. Germans are wealthy because there is very little corruption in Germany's government. (Much less than in Ukraine, at least.)

    High IQ won't help you with that. What you really need is citizens who are willing to take action. The requisite mental trait is courage, and unfortunately too many Russian and Ukrainian people are simply cowards. They won't stand up to the mafia, and they won't stand up to their corrupt police forces. So those two groups walk all over them.

    How can you run a successful business if a criminal or corrupt government official keeps coming to you and soliciting bribes? All your profits will keep getting used up paying for that instead of paying your employees or paying you the business owner.

    But, there is only one way to make it stop.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  41. #141  
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    The requisite mental trait is courage, and unfortunately too many Russian and Ukrainian people are simply cowards. They won't stand up to the mafia, and they won't stand up to their corrupt police forces. So those two groups walk all over them.
    That's asking a lot of individuals.

    My husband likes to recount an anecdote from the early years following the end of Stalin. Kruschev was at the podium in one of those huge assemblies of party members. He was denouncing Stalin for all the obvious things, pounding his fist, shouting a lot, when someone way in the back of the hall called out "Where were you, comrade, when all of this was happening?" He stopped what he was doing, raised his arm and pointed towards the back of the room and shouted, "Who. Said. That?"

    Total silence. Nobody moved. Then he relaxed and smiled. "I was sitting right where you are now, comrade."
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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  42. #142  
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    What it takes is guys like this guy:

    Ruby Ridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Borderline insane, yes. But determined not to be pushed around. It just takes a few guys willing to dig in and have a full on shootout with the police rather than surrender when they think the police are coming to their home unjustly, and it can change the whole nation. In every raid the police conduct after that they have to take into account the possibility they might be facing off with another determined citizen.

    That guy will likely die, but he will have made a difference. And what is more important than making a difference?
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  43. #143  
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 06:52 PM.
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  44. #144  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    It's not as simple as just IQ, unfortunately. Keeping corruption levels down is the biggest issue in having a successful economy. That and containing organized crime. Germans are wealthy because there is very little corruption in Germany's government. (Much less than in Ukraine, at least.)

    High IQ won't help you with that. What you really need is citizens who are willing to take action. The requisite mental trait is courage, and unfortunately too many Russian and Ukrainian people are simply cowards. They won't stand up to the mafia, and they won't stand up to their corrupt police forces. So those two groups walk all over them.

    How can you run a successful business if a criminal or corrupt government official keeps coming to you and soliciting bribes? All your profits will keep getting used up paying for that instead of paying your employees or paying you the business owner.

    But, there is only one way to make it stop.
    This is only if we assume that corrupt Ukrainian system stems from ethnic Ukrainians only and receives no support from outside of Ukraine. Could you point my out to such thing as ''Ukrainian mafia'' anywhere outside of Ukraine (even though there are millions of Ukrainians who live outside of Ukraine)? Only Canada got 1.3 mln. of people with Ukrainian ancestry.
    Majority of the richest Ukrainians have family names which doesn't sound typically Ukrainian. For some reasons they figured out how to thrive in this corrupt environment. This situation is similar to Yeltsin times Russia. Why they are cowards? There were protests in Ukraine which involved millions of people in the last years. The early president escaped out of country with some higher ranked officials, majority of the former govt. is now wanted by Ukrainian prosecutors.
    It's good that they will overthrow the people at the top, but neither the problem, nor the answer to the problem, is at the top.

    It has to be on the community level. You don't overthrow the corrupt president. You overthrow the corrupt chief of police in your own town.

    If all you do is change the president, but leave all the corrupt bureaucrats at the bottom - then everything will stay the same. The bottom government is where all the important decisions are being made.

    Instead, you need to get rid of the corrupt bureaucrats at the bottom. After they're gone, the president will no longer have a foundation under him. He'll be easy to remove.

    The corrupt bureaucrats at the bottom will lie and say it is all the fault of the leaders above them - but this is always a lie. It has never once been true in the whole history of the world. If the bureaucrats at the bottom are corrupt, then it is always because they are choosing to be.

    This is why a lot of revolutions fail. The big bad dictator gets overthrown, but all of his underlings are spared, and they simply change jobs and work for the new government. The underlings will make sure the new government is just as bad as the last one.

    Strangely, but new president who was accused before by Americans to be a corrupt oligarch ?The disgraced oligarch?: WikiLeaks cables reveal changing US views on Poroshenko ? RT News
    is now welcomed in western countries with embraces and promised will help possible. Another oligarch Kolomoiskiy Ihor Kolomoyskyi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia who is wanted by Russia for ''committing military crimes against of peaceful population'' left Ukraine and reside in Switzerland. Despite been regional Ukrainian governor . Ukrainian corruption has support within Ukraine only? Think twice.
    If the rest of the world thought there was any hope for Ukraine, that stuff would probably stop.

    But nobody thinks there is any hope. Tourists from outside Ukraine judge Ukraine by what they see happening personally. When a customs agent refuses to let you through a checkpoint until you slip him some money, or you try to send someone a package in the mail and the delivery service tries to charge them a "delivery fee" - you start thinking that the whole country is just a bunch of lazy criminals.

    Change what happens on the ground level, and tourists will come back with a different story to tell.

    90% of everything people see wrong with Ukraine is stuff they hear from tourists.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 06:52 PM.
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  46. #146  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Tourists from outside Ukraine judge Ukraine by what they see happening personally. When a customs agent refuses to let you through a checkpoint until you slip him some money, or you try to send someone a package in the mail and the delivery service tries to charge them a "delivery fee" - you start thinking that the whole country is just a bunch of lazy criminals.
    I do not think it is regular truth about Ukraine. In 2012 there was European soccer championship and many thousands of tourists visited Ukraine. Majority of them were happy. UEFA Euro 2012 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Good point. I think being trusted to host that event was something of a turning point in Ukraine-Europe relations.

    They've gone from a country universally pressured to surrender its nuclear arsenal - for fear its corrupt leaders would sell the weapons, to a country that is allowed to host important political events.

    Perhaps you are right and there is a lot of hope for Ukraine's future.


    If the rest of the world thought there was any hope for Ukraine, that stuff would probably stop.
    But nobody thinks there is any hope.
    If Ukraine will not successfully develop in a foreseeable future, the largest part of it ultimately will fall under Russian influence or become part of Russia.
    It will definitely strengthen power of Vladimir Putin and Eurasia's Union which already includes Belarus, Kazakhstan, Russia, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan. Russia will place nuclear missiles on the border with Poland with Germany in 300 miles range. I do not think EU would be happy. Currently Russia tests nuclear missiles with splitting warheads which are capable to fly faster than sound and have anti-radar stealth technology. As some known politician said: Russia by itself is still just a country. But Russia with Ukraine is already a superpower. If Ukraine will fall to Russia it will be a game changer in European continent. At the beginning of 20-th century there was similar situation already. After October revolution Ukraine gained independence for a brief time, but Kiev was conquered by bolshevik forces. And in just 25 years after that Soviet forces took Vienne and Berlin! But perhaps if EU cannot offer something better to Ukraine so let it happen. I hope Ukraine will gain as much as possible from cooperation with Russia. Including cheap gas and so on...
    What is happening is the late stages of colonization. It's right out of Machiavelli's book The Prince. The way to permanently annex territory is to move large numbers of your own people into the region and have them settle there. Stalin transplanted a large number of ethnic Russians into Ukraine after he'd killed the local population with his Holodomor artificial famine.

    Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Now it's just a simple matter for Putin to create and then ignite racial hatreds. Ukraine is faced with two choices.

    1) - Allow its fundamental nature to change slightly. Not be just a land for "the Ukrainian people" anymore, but instead a cosmopolitan country that fully welcomes other ethnic nationalities. This would include eliminating the existence of an "official language". It would not be sufficient at this point for the current government to merely add Russian to the list of official languages. They should simply make all languages official. (That is actually the official law in the USA - that no one language is official. English is used only in regions where the majority speak it.)


    2) - Permanently lose the regions that have Russian ethnic majorities.


    I like option #1 better, but it's possible that some people in Western Ukraine might actually prefer option #2.

    Option #3 would be to revise what counts as "Ukrainian" to include Russians living in Ukraine somehow. Given Ukraine's Cossack tradition, it shouldn't be too hard to make the definition of bloodlines work for that somehow.

    Anyway, this race issue has got to be resolved, or Putin will always have an inroad.
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  47. #147  
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    Machiavelli spoke of the practice of colonization this way:

    ""A prince does not spend much on colonies, for with little or no expense he can send them out and keep them there, and he offends a minority only of the citizens from whom he takes lands and houses to give them to the new inhabitants; and those whom he offends, remaining poor and scattered, are never able to injure him; whilst the rest being uninjured are easily kept quiet, and at the same time are anxious not to err for fear it should happen to them as it has to those who have been despoiled." (Chapter III)"


    I would be very surprised of Stalin hadn't read that book.

    http://www.mayanastro.freeservers.com/01machiavelli.HTM


    And so now with the colonizing population already in place, the final step of formal annexation would not be very difficult for a leader like Putin to achieve. Unless the colonizing population of ethnic Russians is given a reason to desire to stay members of the nation that they now inhabit.

    Separating ethnicity from national identity is the only workable move, at this point. Ukraine will have to give up on the dream that was a Ukrainian Ukraine. Or it will have to give up half of its lands.

    This unfortunately means that, in some sense, Stalin has won a partial victory. There is no changing that. The only thing that is possible now is to prevent his victory from being complete.
    Last edited by kojax; July 16th, 2014 at 01:17 PM.
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