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Thread: Exodus of the French

  1. #1 Exodus of the French 
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    What is happening in the world? Are the french going slowly mad?

    The new socialist president of france has decided to send a message with his new top rate of tax. But just exactly what is that message? Is he intentionally trying to drive the wealthy out of France or just punish them? The truth is probarbly somewhere in the middle. But to describe this new tax rate as punitive would be a sizeable understatement, just how many us would really be willing to hand over 3 quarters of our earnings to the tax man?, well it seems if you're french that's what you've got to look forward to. Let's just hope that sanity reigns in the rest of the world and that we don't see other countries deciding to follow suit.

    So what is the likely result? Well the truth is many of france's weathly are not going to put up with a 75 percent tax rate, especially when you consider Monaco has a tax rate of 0 percent!, so we could well see an Exodus of the french and with it a big portion of their wealth.


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    Perhaps they still think they live in the past--after all most Western nations had tax rates for the rich greater than 70% during their biggest economic expansions over the past century (the US was 92%). But today it's supposedly easy to move money overseas to protect oneself.


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    maybe they live in a different world. minds shaped by different lifstyles and perseptions. our logic is shaped by somthing. i wont write more on the post. : 0 ) cheeres
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Perhaps they still think they live in the past--after all most Western nations had tax rates for the rich greater than 70% during their biggest economic expansions over the past century (the US was 92%). But today it's supposedly easy to move money overseas to protect oneself.
    Yeah it got to an insane 99.25% in the UK but that was way back in WW2, but I suppose that was war time. I just wonder though can you imagine some of the reactions in the States if Obama or Romney wanted to introduce a new 75% tax rate. I don't think it would be pretty!
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    Maybe they're the first in a new wave back to more sensible balancing of tax rates. Other mechanisms for increasing revenues to more appropriate levels for modern economies may have to be devised if people want to keep the current disparities in income but still have a reasonably civilised society.

    how many us would really be willing to hand over 3 quarters of our earnings to the tax man?
    Maximum tax rates apply only to the portion of income above whatever the threshold might be. Even if your income was over 100 million euros for the year, making the first 1.3 million less than 2% of your total income, you'd still never pay 75% on the lot.
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    The new french tax rate is set at €1 million, and I agree with your point about not paying 75% on the whole amount, but even so that's still a heck of a lot money to have give to the tax man. But if you're earning 2 or 3 million a year are you going to stay in France and give most of your income away, or pop across the border into Monaco, base yourself there and not pay any tax at all, surely it's a no brainer.
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    IMO It would be a mistake financially. It would be another nail in their coffin. The debts nations have now, including France, simply cannot and will not be controlled, contained or helped/relieved in any way by raising anyone's taxes. IMO, redistributing wealth from the wealthy to the poor through taxes, under the current economic situation, will only help lead France, or any other debt driven government, towards an even greater budget crisis/problem/dilemma than what they are facing now.
    Last edited by gonzales56; October 1st, 2012 at 02:36 AM.
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    IMO

    Public Debt is a giant fraud and theft by central banker's cabal, since 1973 in the case of France with their Pompidou Giscar (Rothschild) law.
    The current fractional reserve system is a racket, money is in essence debt.
    The politicians are Corrupt to the Core, and the politicians of any corrupt party likely to win, be they socialist or right-wing will not address this issue because the Media is also Corrupt to the core. France should have its own money, the Euro is not practical because different regions have different realities/needs/strategies, plus the Euro government is bloating and bloating and bloating, its ridiculous.
    This being said, France's approach is not as disastrous as the genocidal Austerity plans that demolish the economy.

    IMO, redistributing wealth from the wealthy to the poor through taxes
    This worked under Eisenhower and others, because the poor SPEND the money LOCALLY, which is both good for their living standard and for local business, and local jobs, and increases the speed of flow, whereas the rich park(invest) their money in casino speculation. The workers have been flailed alive since Reagan's trickle down economics, with women needing to work to make ends meet, old people having to go back to work as greeters at walmart, alll while jobs are being outsourced and while productivity has been soaring because of automation and computer software. The fact that workers have been raped since the 80s has been concealed by the number of hours a family is working(mothers going to work to compensate) and by the desensitizing lube which are the credit cards(debt) which allowed workers to make ends meet by borrowing, and to continue Consuming and thus sustain the economy and postpone the realization that they are being raped or that the system is crap.

    The monetary system is outdated relic from before the middle ages, working for wage and wage to obtain access to what is produced makes sense in the industrial age, but its inadequate in the age of automation, unless you keep the monetary system but change it completely, in which case you address some of its more obvious flaws but still keep the lurking and inherent conflicts of interest(which feeds corruption).


    (And with respect to France, consider that its Debt to GDP ratio isnt much worst than the US, that it doesn't have some 60,000 foreclosures a month, no one goes bankrupt because of medical expenses, and there's no giant Student Loan Debt bubble.)
    Last edited by icewendigo; October 1st, 2012 at 12:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    IMO

    Public Debt is a giant fraud and theft by central banker's cabal, since 1973 in the case of France with their Pompidou Giscar (Rothschild) law.
    The current fractional reserve system is a racket, money is in essence debt.
    The politicians are Corrupt to the Core, and the politicians of any corrupt party likely to win, be they socialist or right-wing will not address this issue because the Media is also Corrupt to the core. France should have its own money, the Euro is not practical because different regions have different realities/needs/strategies, plus the Euro government is bloating and bloating and bloating, its ridiculous.
    This being said, France's approach is not as disastrous as the genocidal Austerity plans that demolish the economy.

    IMO, redistributing wealth from the wealthy to the poor through taxes
    This worked under Eisenhower and others, because the poor SPEND the money LOCALLY, which is both good for their living standard and for local business, and local jobs, and increases the speed of flow, whereas the rich park(invest) their money in casino speculation. The workers have been flailed alive since Reagan's trickle down economics, with women needing to work to make ends meet, old people having to go back to work as greeters at walmart, alll while jobs are being outsourced and while productivity has been soaring because of automation and computer software. The fact that workers have been raped since the 80s has been concealed by the number of hours a family is working(mothers going to work to compensate) and by the desensitizing lube which are the credit cards(debt) which allowed workers to make ends meet by borrowing, and to continue Consuming and thus sustain the economy and postpone the realization that they are being raped or that the system is crap.

    The monetary system is outdated relic from before the middle ages, working for wage and wage to obtain access to what is produced makes sense in the industrial age, but its inadequate in the age of automation, unless you keep the monetary system but change it completely, in which case you address some of its more obvious flaws but still keep the lurking and inherent conflicts of interest(which feeds corruption).


    (And with respect to France, consider that its Debt to GDP ratio isnt much worst than the US, that it doesn't have some 60,000 foreclosures a month, no one goes bankrupt because of medical expenses, and there's no giant Student Loan Debt bubble.)

    Regardless of which specific problems seem to be occurring in individual countries, they all stem from the looming reality that a financial tsunami in the form of inflation is headed towards each and everyone of these nations economies. The supply of free and easy currency will be cut off by choice or these currencies will be rendered near worthless through saturation.

    Raising taxes allows these government crooks to kick the can down the road a bit on the brutal consequences of their race to the bottom for common people but, the can kicking will only make the pain common people must go through and will go through even worse. The longer these crooks play, manipulate and scheme the greater the saturation of currency will be and the greater the rise in interest rates will be.

    Governments and their economies are in a planned/designed unsustainable bubble. Common people are facing the firing squad no matter what these governments due while these government crooks are going to open a bottle of champagne and celibate their victory no matter how this whole thing actually blows up in each individual country.
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    Hi gonzales56




    "The supply of free and easy currency will be cut off by choice or these currencies will be rendered near worthless through saturation."
    Can you elaborate I would like to better understand your point of view.


    "Common people are facing the firing squad no matter what these governments due while these government crooks are going to open a bottle of champagne"
    I agree that governments are headed by corrupt politicians, corrupted and bribed/blackmailed/financed not by gran-ma jonhson but by industry and wall street lobbyists (and AIPAC). Also imo, the most corrupt and PRO Establishment of politicians usually get the most media coverage, from most Mainstream Media, which just so happened to be influenced and/or owned by members of the Elite/Establishment, while less corrupt politician within a corrupt party usually get less coverage and 3rd parties get no coverage.


    So, Imo focusing on the "they are crooks" (which is true, corrupt crooks, torture accomplices and war criminals) isnt as helpful as understanding that there are serious systemic flaws in our civilization that make abuse, conflicts of interests, corruption, quite likely. The same way if you eliminate a Mafia Boss, but that the socio-economic environment stays the same, others will take over. Our civilization has Hierarchic institutions (corporations, agencies, etc) that are Opaque (trade secrets, national secrets, etc) and uses Money, a monetary system which allows accumulation of wealth which in turn creates accumulation of power, and also creates obiquitous conflicts of interest that hamper human progress and feeds/facilitates corruption, wars, pollution, and a lot of crap our civilization will be associated with. Of course if you want prosperity for some, and poverty for others along with famine, wars, exploitation, then just fixing the economy with policy X or Y within the established system would be enough.

    This being said, for the time being, the first step should at least wrench the control of money from the cabal of central bankers, and have each country issue its own currency interest free, and to have mechanisms that allow regional governments within a country to issue money like bonds similar to what Wörgl did during the Great Depression, and abolish or change the Fractional reserve system.


    cheers
    Last edited by icewendigo; October 3rd, 2012 at 11:48 AM.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    IMO

    Public Debt is a giant fraud and theft by central banker's cabal, since 1973 in the case of France with their Pompidou Giscar (Rothschild) law.
    The current fractional reserve system is a racket, money is in essence debt.
    The politicians are Corrupt to the Core, and the politicians of any corrupt party likely to win, be they socialist or right-wing will not address this issue because the Media is also Corrupt to the core. France should have its own money, the Euro is not practical because different regions have different realities/needs/strategies, plus the Euro government is bloating and bloating and bloating, its ridiculous.
    This being said, France's approach is not as disastrous as the genocidal Austerity plans that demolish the economy.

    IMO, redistributing wealth from the wealthy to the poor through taxes
    This worked under Eisenhower and others, because the poor SPEND the money LOCALLY, which is both good for their living standard and for local business, and local jobs, and increases the speed of flow, whereas the rich park(invest) their money in casino speculation.
    Well, once upon a time they used to spend their money locally. Now they pay workers in a foreign land that are being mistreated worse than they are to make their household items, all the while congratulating themselves because they think they're raising that worker's standard of living.

    And then the economy slows down because deflation of the worker wage is... well.... deflation. It has all the consequences of any other kind of deflation. Business people don't want to borrow money to expand their operations because they know the value of the machinery they buy will be going down, but they'd still have to pay the loan off at its original value.



    The workers have been flailed alive since Reagan's trickle down economics, with women needing to work to make ends meet, old people having to go back to work as greeters at walmart, alll while jobs are being outsourced and while productivity has been soaring because of automation and computer software. The fact that workers have been raped since the 80s has been concealed by the number of hours a family is working(mothers going to work to compensate) and by the desensitizing lube which are the credit cards(debt) which allowed workers to make ends meet by borrowing, and to continue Consuming and thus sustain the economy and postpone the realization that they are being raped or that the system is crap.
    The wealthy are screwing themselves too. Only the bankers are happy right now. Or anyone who owns gold or oil.


    I agree we might just need to do away with most of the banking system altogether. I think in the modern, globalized, world, it is no longer a good idea to let private institutions decide how much or little they want to inflate your currency. We should require all lenders to possess the money they lend in the full amounts from now on. That's the only way to solve it once and for all.

    Now.... I doubt this will happen. Too many people stand to gain by keeping it the way it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Hi gonzales56




    "The supply of free and easy currency will be cut off by choice or these currencies will be rendered near worthless through saturation."
    Can you elaborate I would like to better understand your point of view.


    "Common people are facing the firing squad no matter what these governments due while these government crooks are going to open a bottle of champagne"
    I agree that governments are headed by corrupt politicians, corrupted and bribed/blackmailed/financed not by gran-ma jonhson but by industry and wall street lobbyists (and AIPAC). Also imo, the most corrupt and PRO Establishment of politicians usually get the most media coverage, from most Mainstream Media, which just so happened to be influenced and/or owned by members of the Elite/Establishment, while less corrupt politician within a corrupt party usually get less coverage and 3rd parties get no coverage.


    So, Imo focusing on the "they are crooks" (which is true, corrupt crooks, torture accomplices and war criminals) isnt as helpful as understanding that there are serious systemic flaws in our civilization that make abuse, conflicts of interests, corruption, quite likely. The same way if you eliminate a Mafia Boss, but that the socio-economic environment stays the same, others will take over. Our civilization has Hierarchic institutions (corporations, agencies, etc) that are Opaque (trade secrets, national secrets, etc) and uses Money, a monetary system which allows accumulation of wealth which in turn creates accumulation of power, and also creates obiquitous conflicts of interest that hamper human progress and feeds/facilitates corruption, wars, pollution, and a lot of crap our civilization will be associated with. Of course if you want prosperity for some, and poverty for others along with famine, wars, exploitation, then just fixing the economy with policy X or Y within the established system would be enough.

    This being said, for the time being, the first step should at least wrench the control of money from the cabal of central bankers, and have each country issue its own currency interest free, and to have mechanisms that allow regional governments within a country to issue money like bonds similar to what Wörgl did during the Great Depression, and abolish or change the Fractional reserve system.


    cheers
    We will use the US government as an example.. The US government is in debt about 75 trillion US dollars. The majority of this debt is to the american people through funds like social security. Each year they take about 1.5 trillion dollars in excess fund monies (monies not spent) , add it to their total income, spend it and then print IOU's to these funds. They have been doing this for decades. Right now the US government still takes and spends the excess in these fund but they are also issuing (continually rolling over) about 60 trillion in IOU's for the monies they took in prior years from these funds. This alone is one of the biggest financial crimes a government has ever perpetrated on its own people but, the american people will and do accept this crime as if it was a minor infraction. This has been a source of free and easy money for the federal government but, this resource is coming to an end. The programs they have stolen from and continue to steal from can no longer sustain their theft, and due to their theft, these programs can not and will not be able to sustain their own mandates/purpose for much longer. These programs will begin to eat into the budgets of the crooks, rather than feed them.

    The US government is now balancing their entire 75 trillion dollar debt and feeding their greedy appetites for more through bail outs, stock market manipulation, by manipulating interest rates to near zero and selling notes/bills to other governments, private individuals, and even worse, the federal reserve.

    Every bit of currency created by the federal reserve for bail outs, market manipulation, interest rate manipulation and to purchase notes, bills and bonds is currency that has not been created by production or product. it is currency without merit, it is currency born/created without representing something of value and therefore it is currency designed, by its very nature, to obtain things for free for those that use it, while those who don't use it directly, have their hard earned currency devalue by the addition of the newly created currency.

    These type of schemes are just as damning in the form of inflation as the practices of fractional banking, and perhaps even more so due to how massive these schemes have become. The US government has created, or demanded the creation of, trillions and trillions of merit-less US dollars using these specific schemes over the last 4-5 years, and this "money" is going to hit the common people sooner or later... When it does, inflation will severely hurt common people and then the interest rate hikes will slow the government and business way down. The bubbles will begin popping. It is just a matter of when and how severe.
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    "Now they pay workers in a foreign land"
    Yes I agree this is a problem which does not negate my comment, since at least they SPEND money, and the bakery, the delivery man, the milkman, the guy working in a home hardware store, people working at the movie theater, etc, etc benefit from the activity(as the person benefits from eating, etc), and these in turn can turn around and also buy bread, milk, nails, a book, go see a movie, etc. The Outsourcing is a problem and should be dealt with in parallel (making sure that imports are attributable to tech, or other means of efficiency rather than by crapping on workers/wages, social sustainability and the environment).

    "We should require all lenders to possess the money they lend in the full amounts from now on. "

    Yes but also note that an economy needs money, and a growing economy may need even more money (you need more water in a full sized swimming pool than a kids plastic dipping bath), so imo since money needs to be created part of it ought to directly finance needed public infrastructure and part should be given to people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post

    Yes but also note that an economy needs money, and a growing economy may need even more money (you need more water in a full sized swimming pool than a kids plastic dipping bath), so imo since money needs to be created part of it ought to directly finance needed public infrastructure and part should be given to people.
    When something is used as a medium of exchange, one cannot just create (out of thin air) or give that medium of exchange (for free) without there being consequences. Money has to be earned in order to remain viable and healthy, and what that means is that a service, product, good or commodity has to be turned over/given in order for currency to be created/generated.... If not, the newly created currency only equals/means a reduction in the value of the overall currency. It does not represent or mean growth.

    So many people talk about money as if it is nothing, however, sound money is created and generated by hard working men and women. Every penny created out of thin air and every penny given to someone else is a penny a real struggling person has had to put blood, sweat and tears into making and creating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "Now they pay workers in a foreign land"
    Yes I agree this is a problem which does not negate my comment, since at least they SPEND money, and the bakery, the delivery man, the milkman, the guy working in a home hardware store, people working at the movie theater, etc, etc benefit from the activity(as the person benefits from eating, etc), and these in turn can turn around and also buy bread, milk, nails, a book, go see a movie, etc. The Outsourcing is a problem and should be dealt with in parallel (making sure that imports are attributable to tech, or other means of efficiency rather than by crapping on workers/wages, social sustainability and the environment).
    Yeah. I like to call it "excess savings". Wealthy people don't spend their money. They try and find ways to store it for later.

    Unfortunately the thing that money is supposed to represent (physical wealth) usually doesn't store very well. Grain rots. Cars and computers get out-dated. Buildings crumble. .... etc.... Very few forms of real, tangible, wealth will retain their value if nobody makes use of them.

    Poor people have the vice/virtue of not saving. It's ironic that this trait we are taught from childhood to believe in and aspire to, should turn out to be a horrible vice. But it is.



    "We should require all lenders to possess the money they lend in the full amounts from now on. "

    Yes but also note that an economy needs money, and a growing economy may need even more money (you need more water in a full sized swimming pool than a kids plastic dipping bath), so imo since money needs to be created part of it ought to directly finance needed public infrastructure and part should be given to people.
    Yeah. I just think the decision making process just needs to be concentrated into fewer hands, and preferably hands that don't have a profit motive toward wanting to inflate too much.

    Banks are not an ideal place to put that decision.
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    "Money has to be earned"
    For money to be earned it has to exist first, yes out of thin air, like the alphabet, numbers, language, money is a concept and fabrication of human civilization, it has to be created out of thin air or by magically and arbitrarily anointing something like sea shells or fossilized whale dung or tungsten or using a stick with nooks. Failure to understand 'it needs to exist in he first place' is in part what the racket relies on, I'm not even in favor of the monetary system btw, but until we upgrade to the next level we need to understand the monetary system at least a little. Saying money needs to be earned sounds a bit like a talking point like talking of "sound" money, to be earned it needs to exist, so paying interest for its existence is as corrupt as paying Bernard Madoff for the right to use the Alphabet, as if you should work 6 weeks and build a luxury estate with pain and sweat for Madoff because somehow he should be paid for you to have the privilege of using the Alphabet, its a fraud, a giant racket.

    newly created currency only equals/means a reduction in the value of the overall currency
    Yes, if you produce Nothing, Zero, Nada, Rien, Ziltch, then indeed more money would be set against a static amounts of goods (but as explained above, what ever that amount of money is, it needs to exist in the first place, and paying for it to exist is a fraud), but on top of that on the other hand if the amount of money stays the same in a city, where you build 5 000 houses, 300 cars, 2000 ipods, 8000 books, then you are not in a stable situation, because theres the same amount of money for a whole lot more goods... Focusing on the money supply when talking about inflation is the same as movies in which the cops surround the front of the house/store/bank and let the suspect escape by the back door, it might look good from one perspective but not so brilliant from a broader perspective.

    Also great magicians will distract you with one hand while the other hand does the trick, look at the money press, look its unsound paper fiat yadee yada they are creating it out of thin air, meanwhile with the other hand through the magic of fractional reserve private banks both inflate the money supply (for a while) AND get us to pay interest on it to boot, its a fraud and all corrupt charlatan economists wont whisper a word about it.

    sound money is created
    You will understand I see this as an invalid talking point, but on top of that, Id like to point out that there cant be money that really all that "sound" money (in addition to this not even being a good idea) with Fractional Reserve banking. Even if you say money will be backed by Gold from the Moon blessed by the Pope, the second the bank makes a Loan there isnt 2 Holy Lunar Gold nuggets in the vaults, so multiple individual think they have Holy Lunar Gold that doesnt exist because there's not really more Holy Lunar Gold. If the shit hits the fan and people default, people will be crying with their "paper saying its backed by Holy Lunar Gold" when there isnt any more left of the fraction that other people already made a run on. People are so blinded by the "sound" money narrative that they are then dumbfounded as to where did all that money go? How did it vanish out of thin air? all our Holy Lunar Gold money? where is it? How can it no longer exist? (because it never existed in the first place, its an institutionalized tick).


    "sound money is created and generated by hard working men and women"
    I do kind of agree there, that wealth is created by Production and distribution of that production (and indirectly by the enunciation of ideas/knowledge and their distribution), so indeed in an economy where hard human labor is used to produce and distribute the production, wealth is generated by hard working men and women [though accumulated knowledge for generations, science/tech, industrial equipment, non human matter processing (automation) and non human data processing(software), and non human energy(steam, oil, electricity, etc), also contribute, in increasing proportions, to the production, while less human input is required for increasing production levels, hence the current monetary system is as outdated to the emerging reality as cavalry was in WW1 (and like WW1 the "experts" and high officers of hierarchies are dogmatically bound to the old views that were so correct/valid in the old reality and oblivious to the new reality despite horrendous evidence made blatant over and over again)]
    Last edited by icewendigo; October 4th, 2012 at 10:37 AM.
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    Sound money is not created out of thin air. As a medium of exchange, sound money is created to match, represent and account for services, products, goods and commodities that have been rendered, are available and can be exchanged.

    If there is no service, product, good or commodity required in order to exchange for the creation of currency then what you have is a master/slave economy. You have an economy where some do not have to do anything to obtain their medium of exchange, they can create it out of thin air, and they make people work for the money they are creating out of thin air. This is where western economies are headed, and they have been heading here full steam ahead, and I fear you might be advocating this type of economy as well.

    Sound money cannot be created out of thin air and money, period, should not be allow to be created out of thin air. Every dollar, every currency, should represent, be created and only account for services, products, goods and commodities that have been rendered, are available and can be exchanged. When currency is created out of thin air, those that do it become masters and the work people give in exchange for the promise of equal value/work to be rendered unto them is a promise that is broken, destroyed and robbed from them.
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    "Sound money is not created out of thin air. As a medium of exchange, sound money is created .."
    How? How do you create money that a country will use? You have a thousand people living on an island, they have goods, they are fishing, building, they're looking at you, hey mister, we need money to facilitate our economic activity, how should you/we get the end result of having money to facilitate your monetary system based economy? (in a way that's cost efficient and fair for all)
    Last edited by icewendigo; October 4th, 2012 at 10:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    sound money is created
    You will understand I see this as an invalid talking point, but on top of that, Id like to point out that there cant be money that really all that "sound" money (in addition to this not even being a good idea) with Fractional Reserve banking. Even if you say money will be backed by Gold from the Moon blessed by the Pope, the second the bank makes a Loan there isnt 2 Holy Lunar Gold nuggets in the vaults, so multiple individual think they have Holy Lunar Gold that doesnt exist because there's not really more Holy Lunar Gold. If the shit hits the fan and people default, people will be crying with their "paper saying its backed by Holy Lunar Gold" when there isnt any more left of the fraction that other people already made a run on. People are so blinded by the "sound" money narrative that they are then dumbfounded as to where did all that money go? How did it vanish out of thin air? all our Holy Lunar Gold money? where is it? How can it no longer exist? (because it never existed in the first place, its an institutionalized tick).

    Very good way of describing it.

    "sound money is created and generated by hard working men and women"
    I do kind of agree there, that wealth is created by Production and distribution of that production (and indirectly by the enunciation of ideas/knowledge and their distribution), so indeed in an economy where hard human labor is used to produce and distribute the production, wealth is generated by hard working men and women [though accumulated knowledge for generations, science/tech, industrial equipment, non human matter processing (automation) and non human data processing(software), and non human energy(steam, oil, electricity, etc), also contribute, in increasing proportions, to the production, while less human input is required for increasing production levels, hence the current monetary system is as outdated to the emerging reality as cavalry was in WW1 (and like WW1 the "experts" and high officers of hierarchies are dogmatically bound to the old views that were so correct/valid in the old reality and oblivious to the new reality despite horrendous evidence made blatant over and over again)]

    Which leads to the problem of deflation. Production is still a human endeavor to a large degree. It's just that it's "blue collar" work, and we're allowing the wage for that work to fall and fall and fall. (Which creates deflation because then the prices those people are willing to pay for goods and services falls with their wage.... causing their wage to fall again..... causing the price they can pay to fall again..........)

    I can't say this for sure, but I suspect it's because America is obsessed with education. Parents are so afraid that if they allow any kind of blue collar labor to pay well, their kids will decide not to go to college, and just work the blue collar job instead.

    Thing is....... the USA was built on blue collar labor. This college obsession is very recent in America's history. The rise to greatness happened a good while before that trend even started.

    If the only thing that pays is office work, then office work is the only thing that's going to happen (at least the only thing that will happen inside the USA). We'll just build ever less and less efficient bureaucracies that invent 100 different new ways to shuffle paper around, more senseless meetings, and maybe throw in some expensive retreats to resorts in Mexico or something, so everyone is entertained while they piss the company's money away. ............And then inform their blue collar workers they're going to need to cut wages........ again......
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "Sound money is not created out of thin air. As a medium of exchange, sound money is created .."
    How? How do you create money that a country will use? You have a thousand people living on an island, they have goods, they are fishing, building, they're looking at you, hey mister, we need money to facilitate our economic activity, how should you/we get the end result of having money to facilitate your monetary system based economy? (in a way that's cost efficient and fair for all)
    I am not sure what you mean by how but, I will try and explain it to you a different way..... Fiat currencies are a medium of exchange/trade (a crooked medium in their current form/practice but a medium non the less.)... What this means is that fiat currencies are not the exchange, they are not the trade, they are not the valuable thing or valuable things, they are only the medium/broker between valuable things or things of value being exchanged/traded.

    Fiat currency that is created out of thin air removes/usurps the valuable item/thing from one side of an exchange/trade and abuses its medium of exchange properties in order to insert itself as the valuable. This is not sound currency, this is theft. We don't like some guy or girl in their basement printing "dollars" on their printers because they steal value from Us an they did not earn the currency but, some love it and cant get enough of it when the government does it.

    The way most people obtain currency, their medium of exchange, is by giving up work for it or by borrowing it. The currency of exchange they receive is not created out of thin air, it is created, it is a contract, representing their service/work rendered and/or the services and work they will do in the future. Their hard work and their promises to work is the valuable, it is one half of an exchange/trade. Again, sound currency is only a medium of exchange/trade. Two things of value must be exchanged/traded in order for sound currency to be created.. It should not be created out of thin air i.e., it should not lack or usurp one half of an exchange/trade.

    Sound currency is only created when two or more things of value are going to be exchanged/traded i.e., the trade is in place, open and close are there and this allows for a medium of exchange to be created.

    If I was to help a 1000 islanders and use fiat currency, I would help them by giving them exactly what they wanted, which is a medium of exchange. I would easily introduce that medium of exchange by letting them know that whenever they needed paper currency they can borrow the currency, interest free. It is simple.

    Everyone that produces, sells and/or hires can borrow currency based on their sells/trades/deals, and those that employ/hire can hand people the medium of exchange.
    Last edited by gonzales56; October 8th, 2012 at 01:46 AM.
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    The thing with a bank is that, if say, they're operating on a fractional reserve system that allows them to only maintain 20% of their money in the vault at a given time, you've got one group of people who are all essentially sharing their dollars 5 ways with the others. Each thinks they have all five dollars, when really they only have one. It's an artificial bubble which we're hoping will never pop.

    Now compare this with other bubbles. Right now many Chinese investors hold American dollars as an investment. The current exchange rate is 1 to 0.1590, so each of those American dollars is worth about 6 Yuan. They loan the dollars out, and see the number of dollars in their portfolio increase, and they naturally think that means they have a lot of Yuan.

    A "run on the yuan" would not be different from a "run on the banks". Not really. A bank gives you a number which is supposedly trade-able for dollars on a 1:1 basis. If they're only holding 20% of that money in their reserve, then during a run on the bank that ratio would be 1:5. Hence the "fiat currency" notion, I think. For Yuan, the exchange rate isn't fixed. There's no guarantee 1 Dollar will be worth 6 Yuan in 10 years. Indeed, given the trade imbalance between the USA and China, I'd say it's very unlikely the 1:6 ratio will hold up. Worse, if many dollars are traded for Yuan all at once, that works just like short selling a stock. They'd be getting nowhere near 6 Yuan per Dollar.

    It seems to me that bubbles are all the same. They're just attempts to create imaginary wealth and trade it away for real wealth. The people who bought the imaginary wealth lose out. The people who sold it are essentially getting something for nothing.
    Last edited by kojax; October 8th, 2012 at 04:35 PM. Reason: much needed shortening
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    Well I guess my prediction might not have been to far off the mark, if not prophetic, as major French star threathens to leave France in a bid to escape the new exorbitant tax rates.
    Gérard Depardieu is leaving France and is being given a Russian passport and citizenship after he vowed to give up being 'French'.
    It does make you wonder if the French Government couldn't have actually have seen this one coming ahead of time and how long before we see a U-turn(flipflop) in policy.

    Gérard Depardieu joins very small club of adoptive Russian citizens | Film | The Guardian
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    I don't know how the Frenchs will cope with Depardieu's departure, but, personnaly, I think I will survive.
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    Perhaps when some of France's top business exec's decide they can keep more of their salaries else where then some might start to find it more difficult to cope, after all would anybody really be happy about being asked to hand over three quarters of their income.
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    [QUOTE=kojax;356354]
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Yeah. I like to call it "excess savings". Wealthy people don't spend their money. They try and find ways to store it for later.

    Unfortunately the thing that money is supposed to represent (physical wealth) usually doesn't store very well. Grain rots. Cars and computers get out-dated. Buildings crumble. .... etc.... Very few forms of real, tangible, wealth will retain their value if nobody makes use of them.

    Poor people have the vice/virtue of not saving. It's ironic that this trait we are taught from childhood to believe in and aspire to, should turn out to be a horrible vice. But it is.
    You are saying that it's better to go out and blow your money immediately than to save and invest? Absurd. Consider 2 men, both are paid the same. One guy (guy #1) blows his entire paycheck each week mostly on beer, whores and cigarettes. The other guy (guy #2) puts about half his check into the bank each week. It seems like guy #1 is stimulating the economy more than guy #2. But, after ten years or so, guy number 2 takes his savings and starts his own company which ultimately employs many other people. Who has benefited the economy more now? And that's not even the whole story. The money guy #2 was putting in the bank wasn't just sitting there, it was being used to fund loans given to other people so that they could also make investments.

    Guy number 1 pissed away his money and at the end had nothing to show for it. Guy number 2 created his own business and the money he was saving up to start that business was used to help others in the meantime.

    Saving is a virtue, not a vice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The new socialist president of france has decided to send a message with his new top rate of tax. But just exactly what is that message? Is he intentionally trying to drive the wealthy out of France or just punish them? The truth is probarbly somewhere in the middle. But to describe this new tax rate as punitive would be a sizeable understatement, just how many us would really be willing to hand over 3 quarters of our earnings to the tax man?, well it seems if you're french that's what you've got to look forward to. Let's just hope that sanity reigns in the rest of the world and that we don't see other countries deciding to follow suit.

    So what is the likely result? Well the truth is many of france's weathly are not going to put up with a 75 percent tax rate, especially when you consider Monaco has a tax rate of 0 percent!, so we could well see an Exodus of the french and with it a big portion of their wealth.

    I think it's quite telling that even former president Sarkozy is considering fleeing France over the new tax rates.
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