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Thread: Insider Trading

  1. #1 Insider Trading 
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    The subject is Insider trading.

    Apparently anyone a part of a company that is not a part of public foreknowledge is not allowed to profit from any such non-public foreknowledge.

    Is this true?

    Or is it only the case when things go bad? If things go well, who is going to blow the whistle, how will they know? Any examples of real-life cases would seem appropriate.


    Last edited by mrJoshua; April 15th, 2012 at 11:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrJoshua View Post
    The subject is Insider trading.

    Apparently anyone a part of a company that is not a part of public foreknowledge is not allowed to profit from any such non-public foreknowledge.

    Is this true?

    Or is it only the case when things go bad? If things go well, who is going to blow the whistle, how will they know? Any examples of real-life cases would seem appropriate.
    It is actually not true. A lot of companies and banks (people) own multiple interests/aspects/branches within individual sectors / connected clusters / products. For instance, a company and bank might own raw materials (mines, processing plants, farms, etc.) and then they will own shipping companies that ship materials, manufacturing plants which make products, distributors and retailers, etc.. Of course, companies and banks coordinate from within constantly and they invest in the markets, and even manipulate them, accordingly.


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    That makes more sense: when information is leaked, then someone is going to get stung for insider trading, but when companies operate with an overall master plan according to the company minutes and charter, that's corporate strategy.

    Thank you for your input.
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    If that "overall master plan according to the company minutes and charter" included profiting from insider information then the company would rapidly find itself on the wrong side of the law.

    Most companies go to extreme lengths to avoid even the faintest whiff of a possibility that any actions could be even mistaken for insider trading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrJoshua View Post
    That makes more sense: when information is leaked, then someone is going to get stung for insider trading, but when companies operate with an overall master plan according to the company minutes and charter, that's corporate strategy.

    Thank you for your input.
    That is correct Joshua. Information and coordination is for insiders to use and make money off of. When insiders take that information and give it to outsiders, it is seen as an insider/employee being disloyal and they will be fired but, when insiders go rouge or give it to outsiders and/or either of those people use that information to make moves before the insiders do it or allow it to happen, then it is a crime.

    In short, if insiders do not mess with company or government agendas, then they will be OK.

    Did you see/hear Obama talk yesterday about Oil Traders? If you did not, I would ask you to listen to it, and if you have, I would ask you to go back and listen to it again and pay extremely close attention to every word of it. I believe his speech yesterday should be required listening, and heavily analyzed and scrutinized, by every high school student in america because, his speech was not about regulating oil traders who manipulate prices, it was about limiting/manipulating, ever further, the long positions (buyers) in oil so the White house / Government could manipulated and control the price of oil (if you need my help to understand this, just let me know and I will gladly help you).
    Last edited by gonzales56; April 18th, 2012 at 11:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    If that "overall master plan according to the company minutes and charter" included profiting from insider information then the company would rapidly find itself on the wrong side of the law.

    Most companies go to extreme lengths to avoid even the faintest whiff of a possibility that any actions could be even mistaken for insider trading.
    They would not and do not find themselves in trouble Strange. The United States government regulates/manipulates every single market to one degree or another.... And insider trading or high frequency profit taking / manipulation within every market is allowed, depending on what side one is on, by law... The US government just directs/regulates the direction in which the insider trading and high profit shearing for each individual market must take / will go (either up or down).

    For instance, it is completely legal for anyone to sell 100 times the amount of the worlds supply of Oil in the US in an instant, and anyone can sell it...... It is completely legal for companies to be coordinated through banks in order to be on the sell side in the Oil Market in order to slam/manipulate the Oil price down, then close out their contracts and make millions/billions. The US government encourages this manipulation, supports this manipulation and profit taking and this short side (sell side) of the Oil Market is set up by the US government as a ponzi scheme.

    Now contrast that with the US governments control on the buy side (long positions) within the Oil Market. There are limits on what individuals can buy and no amount of coordinated buying can occur. The White House, Obama, now wants future buyers, and future buyers only, to have to put up all the money up front while the sellers only have to put up 5-10% or so in order to sell, mind you, oil they do not have and never will have.

    Every market is manipulated (regulated) by the US government in this way. One side of ever market is always full of US supported legal crooks and the other side is always full of highly limited and targeted individuals....
    Last edited by gonzales56; April 18th, 2012 at 11:58 AM.
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    Insider trading has a very specific definition. I don't see what your little political rant has to do with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Insider trading has a very specific definition. I don't see what your little political rant has to do with it.
    Insider trading actually can be, and is, acted upon / applied in many different ways/forms. I am also not on any political rant, it is just how the markets are run and how they work. It is just a fact that they are regulated/manipulated by governments. Perhaps I should have been more specific for you so you can understand a little bit more about how legal/supported insider trading works.

    Example.. JPMorgan, for instance, manages the accounts of multiple clients and has multiple traders working for them. They know what the supply of a good or commodity is and what it will be, they know the situation with every client company, they also know exactly where those goods, commodities and companies are in the market, what can or will effect them and how many people have orders in with brokers to buy or sell if a good, commodity or company stock/price goes up or down. This is vital information, vital insider information, and depending on which side the government regulations/manipulation is on (sellers or buyers), JP Morgan can use every bit of that insider information, and they do, to coordinate multiple clients' positions and interests in order to buy, sell or manipulate within a Market without any sort of resistance or repercussions.

    It is also noteworthy to know that out of all the clients JPMorgan has, the Federal Reserve is one of them. They are given the authority to do the bidding/wishing/wants of the Federal Government and Fed Reserve in the Market.
    Last edited by gonzales56; April 18th, 2012 at 02:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mrJoshua View Post
    That makes more sense: when information is leaked, then someone is going to get stung for insider trading, but when companies operate with an overall master plan according to the company minutes and charter, that's corporate strategy.

    Thank you for your input.
    That is correct Joshua. Information and coordination is for insiders to use and make money off of. When insiders take that information and give it to outsiders, it is seen as an insider/employee being disloyal and they will be fired but, when insiders go rouge or give it to outsiders and/or either of those people use that information to make moves before the insiders do it or allow it to happen, then it is a crime.

    In short, if insiders do not mess with company or government agendas, then they will be OK.

    Did you see/hear Obama talk yesterday about Oil Traders? If you did not, I would ask you to listen to it, and if you have, I would ask you to go back and listen to it again and pay extremely close attention to every word of it. I believe his speech yesterday should be required listening, and heavily analyzed and scrutinized, by every high school student in america because, his speech was not about regulating oil traders who manipulate prices, it was about limiting/manipulating, ever further, the long positions (buyers) in oil so the White house / Government could manipulated and control the price of oil (if you need my help to understand this, just let me know and I will gladly help you).

    Thanks Gonzales.
    You know the facts. Yet it would seem sensible for the US Government to put higher regulation on the buying and selling of oil in the event of another global oil crisis, would it not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Did you see/hear Obama talk yesterday about Oil Traders? If you did not, I would ask you to listen to it, and if you have, I would ask you to go back and listen to it again and pay extremely close attention to every word of it. I believe his speech yesterday should be required listening, and heavily analyzed and scrutinized, by every high school student in america because, his speech was not about regulating oil traders who manipulate prices, it was about limiting/manipulating, ever further, the long positions (buyers) in oil so the White house / Government could manipulated and control the price of oil (if you need my help to understand this, just let me know and I will gladly help you).
    I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Obama's speech. Perhaps it deserves its own thread.

    On the subject of insider trading and politics, it's worth noting that insider trading laws do not apply to members of Congress. Therefore, they can make a killing on markets affected by the legislation they vote on. Disgusting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrJoshua View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mrJoshua View Post
    That makes more sense: when information is leaked, then someone is going to get stung for insider trading, but when companies operate with an overall master plan according to the company minutes and charter, that's corporate strategy.

    Thank you for your input.
    That is correct Joshua. Information and coordination is for insiders to use and make money off of. When insiders take that information and give it to outsiders, it is seen as an insider/employee being disloyal and they will be fired but, when insiders go rouge or give it to outsiders and/or either of those people use that information to make moves before the insiders do it or allow it to happen, then it is a crime.

    In short, if insiders do not mess with company or government agendas, then they will be OK.

    Did you see/hear Obama talk yesterday about Oil Traders? If you did not, I would ask you to listen to it, and if you have, I would ask you to go back and listen to it again and pay extremely close attention to every word of it. I believe his speech yesterday should be required listening, and heavily analyzed and scrutinized, by every high school student in america because, his speech was not about regulating oil traders who manipulate prices, it was about limiting/manipulating, ever further, the long positions (buyers) in oil so the White house / Government could manipulated and control the price of oil (if you need my help to understand this, just let me know and I will gladly help you).

    Thanks Gonzales.
    You know the facts. Yet it would seem sensible for the US Government to put higher regulation on the buying and selling of oil in the event of another global oil crisis, would it not?
    It is important to understand that "regulations" on paper markets are not like regulations on companies that deal with real goods, products or services (protection of workers, the environment, consumers, etc..). Paper Markets do not extract, create, make or sell a single good, product or service. There only function and mandate is to continually try to set/control/manipulate the price of companies, goods, products and services regardless of what is happening or going on in the real markets. It is the structure of each paper market and their rules that are called "Government regulations" (this is the game and here are the rules...), and that's all there is to it.

    More selling/sellers than buyers drive prices down and more buyers than sellers drives prices up.

    The paper oil market is only there to try and control/set/manipulate the price of real/physical oil. The paper oil market, like every other paper commodity market, is a constant battle/struggle between governments driving the prices of commodities down and the people driving them up. However it is the government who sets the rules, it is their game, and so buyers of commodities are heavily restricted by government rules while sellers (mainly Banks who have the Federal Government and Federal Reserve as clients) have rules that allow them to flood the paper market and sell any amount of any commodity they want, and they do not have to own a single speck or drop of any commodity.

    I hope everyone understands this... Sellers can, by government rules, flood the paper commodity market with an unlimited amount of fake commodities (naked shorts) in order to make it seem like there are billions and trillions more goods than there really is (fake supply) in order to hold the price, suppress the price or make the price of a commodity go down. Insider trading, cooperation, huge market positions, etc., are all allowed by law on the sell side in commodity markets.

    What more can the federal government do? What rules can they change for sellers? Short of giving them everything for free, without any risk (which they do for banks anyways), what else can they do?

    The only thing they can do to manipulate the price of oil down or at least suppress the price from going up to fast or faster is to stack the deck against buyers even more. They can do what Obama did and threaten to investigate even more buyers, make their personal lives h*ll and maybe even make it to where they can put them in jail...... However, if the Federal government wanted to do the right thing, which they hardly ever do, they could raise interest rates, stop pumping trillions of dollars into the stock market and companies and not allow anyone to sell anything they don't have. If they do not correct course, and if they only double down and become even more forceful with their manipulation, like Obama is calling for, then it will lead to the mother of all global financial crisis'.

    We also really did not have a global oil crisis.. What we had and have now, is a dollar crisis/war being fought in the paper markets between the suppression of commodity prices vs. inflation of those prices.

    Ironically enough, in stocks, the government loves the price of those things to go up and they hate the sellers. As one would have imagined or predicted, the rules in these paper markets, set by the federal government, are the exact opposite of the commodity markets. Low interest rates combined with trillions of government dollars flowing into these markets manipulates the prices up.

    The federal government tries its hardest to suppress the prices of commodities while increasing the price of stocks. Unfortunately for them, they cannot keep creating trillions of dollar without inflation and they cannot keep interests rates at a real and true negative return without stealing every ounce of wealth the american people have.

    The government needs to stop it all. They need to stop putting money into the markets, they need to set the markets back to fair and right (for sellers and buyers), they need to raise interest rates to double the rate of their fake inflation numbers so that the dollar truly strengthens and the american people stop getting robbed of their savings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales
    I hope everyone understands this... Sellers can, by government rules, flood the paper commodity market with an unlimited amount of fake commodities (naked shorts) in order to make it seem like there are billions and trillions more goods than there really is (fake supply) in order to hold the price, suppress the price or make the price of a commodity go down. Insider trading, cooperation, huge market positions, etc., are all allowed by law on the sell side in commodity markets.

    What more can the federal government do? What rules can they change for sellers? Short of giving them everything for free, without any risk (which they do for banks anyways), what else can they do?
    They could start by restoring the Glass-Steagall act, and repealing such recent legislation as the Commodities Futures Modernization Act.

    These markets were successfully regulated for more than fifty years after FDR's New Deal, through several wars and major political events, through at least two complete generations of regulators, and deregulated again only incrementally over the past couple of decades until W. The results are a reminder of why and how they were regulated in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Obama's speech. Perhaps it deserves its own thread.

    On the subject of insider trading and politics, it's worth noting that insider trading laws do not apply to members of Congress. Therefore, they can make a killing on markets affected by the legislation they vote on. Disgusting.
    I just find his speech amazing due to the fact that the manipulator himself (government - Sellers of fake commodities) is accusing buyers, who are highly regulated/limited (while sellers are legal crooks) in the commodity markets, of being full of market manipulators. It is impossible to manipulate the commodity markets upwards because of the restrictions, rules and the real manipulators can raise the margins on buyers (and they do) and flood the market with an endless supply of fake commodities (which they do).

    Obama's speech was nothing more than a speech to insight ignorance and hatred towards buyers while threatening those who buy paper commodities. When the president of the United States is going to use his position to speak to the public for the sole purposes of trying to scare people from buying paper commodities, and insight ignorance and hatred towards them, just so he can go from suppressing the real price of oil to manipulate the price of oil down, then the US government has just taken its power and control to a completely new level. It is scary. I do not even want to imagine what he signs off on, says and does behind closed doors when he feels so comfortable doing these type of things and saying these type of things to the public in a public forum/speech.

    Again, keep in mind that it is impossible to manipulate any commodity paper market upwards. However, when people are buying commodities, and the government cant fake sell or sell enough through banks in order to bring prices down, then the price (which has still been suppressed by the selling of fake commodities) will still continue to go up or hold steady. What the president of the United States is saying, is that he is going to go after people who are buying, that more regulations should be put on them, that his sellers of fake commodities have been trying to bring the prices down but, people have been buying it up, that he is tired of trying to overwhelm the buyers, and he is just going to start cracking their heads with and through the power of the United States government.

    Watch his speech again... Not one time does he talk about sellers in the commodity markets. He does not even mention them. What he does is lie about how and who manipulates the commodity markets, and he goes on a full blown crazy rant about buyers and how he intends to go after them.

    Concerning the rest of the government, you are absolutely right about them. They are the biggest paper crooks and the silly bill they just passed does nothing to slow them down or stop them from continuing to be the biggest crooks in the paper markets.
    Last edited by gonzales56; April 20th, 2012 at 01:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mrJoshua View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mrJoshua View Post
    That makes more sense: when information is leaked, then someone is going to get stung for insider trading, but when companies operate with an overall master plan according to the company minutes and charter, that's corporate strategy.

    Thank you for your input.
    That is correct Joshua. Information and coordination is for insiders to use and make money off of. When insiders take that information and give it to outsiders, it is seen as an insider/employee being disloyal and they will be fired but, when insiders go rouge or give it to outsiders and/or either of those people use that information to make moves before the insiders do it or allow it to happen, then it is a crime.

    In short, if insiders do not mess with company or government agendas, then they will be OK.

    Did you see/hear Obama talk yesterday about Oil Traders? If you did not, I would ask you to listen to it, and if you have, I would ask you to go back and listen to it again and pay extremely close attention to every word of it. I believe his speech yesterday should be required listening, and heavily analyzed and scrutinized, by every high school student in america because, his speech was not about regulating oil traders who manipulate prices, it was about limiting/manipulating, ever further, the long positions (buyers) in oil so the White house / Government could manipulated and control the price of oil (if you need my help to understand this, just let me know and I will gladly help you).

    Thanks Gonzales.
    You know the facts. Yet it would seem sensible for the US Government to put higher regulation on the buying and selling of oil in the event of another global oil crisis, would it not?
    It is important to understand that "regulations" on paper markets are not like regulations on companies that deal with real goods, products or services (protection of workers, the environment, consumers, etc..). Paper Markets do not extract, create, make or sell a single good, product or service. There only function and mandate is to continually try to set/control/manipulate the price of companies, goods, products and services regardless of what is happening or going on in the real markets. It is the structure of each paper market and their rules that are called "Government regulations" (this is the game and here are the rules...), and that's all there is to it.

    More selling/sellers than buyers drive prices down and more buyers than sellers drives prices up.

    The paper oil market is only there to try and control/set/manipulate the price of real/physical oil. The paper oil market, like every other paper commodity market, is a constant battle/struggle between governments driving the prices of commodities down and the people driving them up. However it is the government who sets the rules, it is their game, and so buyers of commodities are heavily restricted by government rules while sellers (mainly Banks who have the Federal Government and Federal Reserve as clients) have rules that allow them to flood the paper market and sell any amount of any commodity they want, and they do not have to own a single speck or drop of any commodity.

    I hope everyone understands this... Sellers can, by government rules, flood the paper commodity market with an unlimited amount of fake commodities (naked shorts) in order to make it seem like there are billions and trillions more goods than there really is (fake supply) in order to hold the price, suppress the price or make the price of a commodity go down. Insider trading, cooperation, huge market positions, etc., are all allowed by law on the sell side in commodity markets.

    What more can the federal government do? What rules can they change for sellers? Short of giving them everything for free, without any risk (which they do for banks anyways), what else can they do?

    The only thing they can do to manipulate the price of oil down or at least suppress the price from going up to fast or faster is to stack the deck against buyers even more. They can do what Obama did and threaten to investigate even more buyers, make their personal lives h*ll and maybe even make it to where they can put them in jail...... However, if the Federal government wanted to do the right thing, which they hardly ever do, they could raise interest rates, stop pumping trillions of dollars into the stock market and companies and not allow anyone to sell anything they don't have. If they do not correct course, and if they only double down and become even more forceful with their manipulation, like Obama is calling for, then it will lead to the mother of all global financial crisis'.

    We also really did not have a global oil crisis.. What we had and have now, is a dollar crisis/war being fought in the paper markets between the suppression of commodity prices vs. inflation of those prices.

    Ironically enough, in stocks, the government loves the price of those things to go up and they hate the sellers. As one would have imagined or predicted, the rules in these paper markets, set by the federal government, are the exact opposite of the commodity markets. Low interest rates combined with trillions of government dollars flowing into these markets manipulates the prices up.

    The federal government tries its hardest to suppress the prices of commodities while increasing the price of stocks. Unfortunately for them, they cannot keep creating trillions of dollar without inflation and they cannot keep interests rates at a real and true negative return without stealing every ounce of wealth the american people have.

    The government needs to stop it all. They need to stop putting money into the markets, they need to set the markets back to fair and right (for sellers and buyers), they need to raise interest rates to double the rate of their fake inflation numbers so that the dollar truly strengthens and the american people stop getting robbed of their savings.

    That is true. But one thing you forget, as most do, is that paper markets when backed by armed forces are as good as gold. It's how America was made, North versus South. The problem with most economic scholars is that they forget most of that history entirely relevant to how to hold fort and run a bank.

    Gonzales, when paper money trails run a direction adversely proportional to a favourable outcome, room is made in prisons across America. The Government not only does its best to supply money, but to ensure loans are re-paid across a spectrum better likened to a battlefield of need to deliver. It's how America was made. If America ceases to function in any such manner, America ceases to be America. North V South, a war based on Gold, paper money, and the backing of which style of international banking cartel for the sake of ensuring a national awareness of needing to honor loans In America and abroad. You may also consider that the wealthiest people in America are the most capable and willing in ensuring loans are honoured in the US and more importantly abroad by their ability to "be" American.

    Now, looking at that picture, with the advent of new energy resources, somehow the loans of old energy need to be transferred to new energy, and the only way that can happen is to integrate any new energy systems into those old loans. Energy is energy. Ideas are ideas. The game is the same.
    Last edited by mrJoshua; April 20th, 2012 at 07:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrJoshua View Post
    That is true. But one thing you forget, as most do, is that paper markets when backed by armed forces are as good as gold. It's how America was made, North versus South. The problem with most economic scholars is that they forget most of that history entirely relevant to how to hold fort and run a bank.

    Gonzales, when paper money trails run a direction adversely proportional to a favourable outcome, room is made in prisons across America. The Government not only does its best to supply money, but to ensure loans are re-paid across a spectrum better likened to a battlefield of need to deliver. It's how America was made. If America ceases to function in any such manner, America ceases to be America. North V South, a war based on Gold, paper money, and the backing of which style of international banking cartel for the sake of ensuring a national awareness of needing to honor loans In America and abroad. You may also consider that the wealthiest people in America are the most capable and willing in ensuring loans are honoured in the US and more importantly abroad by their ability to "be" American.

    Now, looking at that picture, with the advent of new energy resources, somehow the loans of old energy need to be transferred to new energy, and the only way that can happen is to integrate any new energy systems into those old loans. Energy is energy. Ideas are ideas. The game is the same.
    You are touching more on the Us dollar but......

    You are correct that the U.S., through war/sanctions/threats and gifts/"friendships", will continue to try and protect the Dollar as the worlds reserve currency. The Dollar only has "value" internationally because it is the dollar that is used, for the most part, in exchange for products, commodities, etc... However, and unlike in the U.S., the international community does have alternative means, different ways and currencies, to pay for products and commodities. This means, of course, that the US must compete for the global medium of exchange.

    The New US Dollar "value" was created and is maintained through war, acts of war and diplomacy but, that is not like gold or silver nor is the fiat Dollar as good as gold or silver. Gold and silver currencies are valuable because the metals themselves are valuable. Gold and Silver have high intrinsic value, constitutional value and they do not need anything to create a value, or maintain a value, for them.

    Fiat currencies, like the New US Dollar, have an intrinsic value, a constitutional value, of extremely rough toilet paper, and so, it must be sold or forced, so be it by kind smiles or brutality, upon people and nations. The US Dollar, because it is intrinsically worthless, can only be maintained, circulated and have value as a currency through violence, threats and/or bribes/friendships. That is the nature of fiat currencies, that is the reality of fiat currencies.



    This silver dollar does not need to be accompanied by bombs, brutality, sanctions, threats, etc.. The high intrinsic value, the constitutional value, of this dollar makes it a dollar the world gladly accepts, without any objection.




    Because this dollars intrinsic value is 0, its value has to be created and maintained through diplomacy, war, brutality, threats, sanctions, etc..
    Last edited by gonzales56; April 21st, 2012 at 03:19 PM.
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    Ok.

    I'm touching on the US dollar.....but.

    I wasn't initially, clearly.

    Gold is dug from the ground. It is applied to basic features of a social network of importance limited by it's malleability with a "hammer". That's easy to put a gold value on.

    Inventions, like the car and the aeroplane, seemingly come from nothing. Not so easy to put a gold value on, unless you forget about the cars and the aeroplanes.

    Are we talking the same language Gonzales?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrJoshua View Post
    Ok.

    I'm touching on the US dollar.....but.

    I wasn't initially, clearly.

    Gold is dug from the ground. It is applied to basic features of a social network of importance limited by it's malleability with a "hammer". That's easy to put a gold value on.

    Inventions, like the car and the aeroplane, seemingly come from nothing. Not so easy to put a gold value on, unless you forget about the cars and the aeroplanes.

    Are we talking the same language Gonzales?
    More than not, yes.
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