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Thread: How long could last evolution from black skin to white skin

  1. #1 How long could last evolution from black skin to white skin 
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    How long could last evolution from black skin to white skin ? Thousands of years ? Or rather tens thousands of years ?


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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Siemowit, be very careful where you are going with this. Several of your previous posts have had an implicit racist aura about them. Such misguided non-science will not be tolerated here.
    (Ophiolite in moderator mode)

    To answer your question, most likely between thousands and tens of thousands of years.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Masters Degree organic god's Avatar
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    guy is just doing science ophiolite.
    maybe his experiences have led him to have these beliefs and he is just trying to prove them with science.
    i don't have a problem with this
    everything is mathematical.
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    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    guy is just doing science ophiolite.
    maybe his experiences have led him to have these beliefs and he is just trying to prove them with science.
    i don't have a problem with this
    Maybe not - but this forum has guidelines, and for good reason.

    To also respond to the original question: just one generation creates an albino, and recessive genes can spread very quickly in certain circumstances.
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    You're mad about political correctness. Talking about races isn't forbidden.
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    Do white genes dominate black then?

    If not wouldn't it become a blend of white and black and therefore produce other skin tones than white?

    Or would the difference be made by the ratio of white people to black?

    Are there more white skins than black skins on the planet?

    That would be totally dull if everyone had the same skin colour!
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    You can have the transformation in a single generation: albinos.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    Do white genes dominate black then?
    i'm not even sure to what extent there are genes "for" skin colour - on a guess i'd say skin colour is an expression of a variety of factors, some of which are genetic

    as for the genetic component, skin colour seems to be driven by natural selection, paler near the poles (manufacture of sufficient vitamin D under lower levels of exposure to the sun) and darker near the equator (protection against skin cancer)
    the speed of natural selection depends on how relentless the selection pressure is + how it affects mortality rates

    pure natural selection would be a fairly slow process (again on a guess i'd say in the order of a thousand years), but obviously mixtures between dark and pale skinned people will create an intermediate colour in 1 generation
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    A white girlfriend who was married to a black man had one baby that was black and another that was white (no she wasn't befriending the milkman!)

    I've also heard of stories where a white couple can have a black baby due to ancestry and where skin colouring skipped generations. Do you think that could be true?
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    ive heard somewhere that all humans started out black and then evolution chnaged some of them. How skin colour can change so much though i dont really understand...
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    i've heard of a case like that in south africa during the apartheid days
    i don't know the exact details, but a couple that were classified as "white" had a child that by law had to be re-classified as "coloured" - goes to show the absurdities thrown up by that warped sort of thinking
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    Skin color is a polygenic trait - involving multiple genes. It was originally thought that there were 2 to 4 genes that had incomplete dominance over each other (so instead of dark being dominant over light, both a dark and a light gene are expressed and make a midtone phenotype).

    More recent studies, though, suggest that there are actually a lot more genes than that, working together in a variety of complex ways. Some of them are probably additive, meaning that the more dark alleles you have, the darker your skin will be. There are actually several types of melanin that are created by your body in various ways, and there are various genes that control these pathways.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siemowit
    You're mad about political correctness. Talking about races isn't forbidden.
    It isn't. But talking with obvious intent is despicable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    Quote Originally Posted by Siemowit
    You're mad about political correctness. Talking about races isn't forbidden.
    It isn't. But talking with obvious intent is despicable.
    What is his intent? It is not obvious to me.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siemowit
    You're mad about political correctness. Talking about races isn't forbidden.
    For the record I abhor political correctness. I also find racism illogical, destructive and undesirable.
    One interpretation of your posts indicates a racist attitude. This interpretation may be completely wrong. That was why I issued you with some cautionary advice, rather than a direct warning. If you do not hold racist views I have no problem with any of the questions you are asking. If you do and you are using these questions as a back door to promote such racist views, it will be stopped.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    One interpretation of your posts indicates a racist attitude.
    How so? If it took a long time or it took a short time for skin color to change, I don't see how either answer suppors or undermines any racist notions.
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    Don't think about it too hard Harold. I'd agree, though it does seem he's giving quite a lot of interest in race. This tends to bring attention, which it did.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    One interpretation of your posts indicates a racist attitude.
    How so? If it took a long time or it took a short time for skin color to change, I don't see how either answer suppors or undermines any racist notions.
    Harold, you need to look at his total posting record, as I have done. His posts include lengthy extracts of outmoded jargon from a racist site and statements that look like the first of a sequence that leads to describing certain races as inferior.
    This all may be unfortunate coincidence, in which case my warning can just be ignored. If there is substance to it, then I trust it will be taken to heart and we can avoid some unpleasantness.
    Harold, I honestly don't know where the guy is coming from and I may be doing him a great disservice. At the moment he walks like a duck, but I haven't heard him quack yet. Perhaps he is just one of the last great duck impersonators.
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    Personally i think he is asking a fair and reasonable question in this debate.

    I haven't seen his other threads that might be construed as rascist but i am pretty sure on this forum there are enough level headed intelligent people who wont put up with anything that might appear as rascism.
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    One interpretation of your posts indicates a racist attitude.
    How so? If it took a long time or it took a short time for skin color to change, I don't see how either answer suppors or undermines any racist notions.
    i just had a quick glance through siemowit's posts, and he DOES seem to have race on the brain

    whilst this doesn't make him a racist, the fact that nearly all of his posts concern themselves with race and genetic "improvement" of humans makes me feel rather uneasy
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  22. #21  
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    Can we be sure that dark skin predates light skin? Is that a settled argument, and if so, what proof do we have?

    Political correctness has nothing to do with it, and I am not a big fan of it, either. What political correctness does is to provide a cover for a sick mind by putting a filter into the mouth. Let them speak their minds so we can see them exposed.

    The way certain questions are asked (and I trust ophiolite's judgement on the general attitude of this dude w/o having read his other posts) goes with a fairly obvious (though wrong) implication of racial superiority. We've come too far to play naive and innocent, here. The primitive thinking is that light skin has developed later in human history, has evolved from dark skin and hence must have some sort of advantage. Even if the time-line should be correct, such argument of superiority would be complete non-sense, of course. The advantage of high melanin content and production is obvious. A perceived advantage of lack of melanin is far from obvious to me. It may just be that melanin is not needed as much in higher latitudes, so the loss of it -- although without practical merit -- did also not have a strong enough disadvantage to be of any evolutionary relevance. The discussion is of little scientific merit, and it's unlikely to surface without a political agenda (which I would welcome where it belongs, but not on a science forum).

    There are far more selection-neutral phenotypes than people realize. For some reason, people tend to believe that every feature of their body has a life-sustaining and/or reproduction enhancing function. That's just not the case. Most of it is mildly relevant (if at all) and far dominated by much more important aspects, such as intelligence and a suitable immune system. We have neither evolved to perfection, nor does such perfect state of evolution exist. The key to evolutionary success is diversity, not the achievement of a local optimum.

    How long does it take to go from dark to light skin? Who says this process ever took place in any evolution driven direction? Maybe white people just happen (and are happy) to be there.
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  23. #22  
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    Actually, most animals, including most monkeys and apes, have relatively light colored skin under their fur. It's been hypothesized that early hominids became dark skinned when they lost their fur and the UV protection it provided.

    Melanin needs to be produced by your body, and that takes energy. If you don't need to produce it, then you won't, because you can devote those resources elsewhere. Dark skinned people have dark skin because they need it. Light skinned people simply don't need that much melanin, and if they live too far north, can actually not get enough vitamin D if they have too much melanin. This is why you get tan in the summer sun and pale in the winter months.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  24. #23  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    Quote Originally Posted by Siemowit
    You're mad about political correctness. Talking about races isn't forbidden.
    It isn't. But talking with obvious intent is despicable.
    What is his intent? It is not obvious to me.
    Sorry if I was obscure, Harold, but I too, like Ophi, have seen in Siemowit's posts a tendency to equate 'white' with 'improvement' of the human species. I may be jumping the gun on this one, and that would be unfair, but I'd like to see Siemowit exhibit some sense that responses to his/her previous posts have sunk in, rather than his/her constantly asking a new race-based question using the notion that white is an improvement.

    I could be entirely wrong - but perhaps you could check out all Siemowit's OPs and tell us what you think.

    Initially, instead of being automatically outraged, I assumed Siemowit had language issues and was simply using an unfamiliar language, for which certain infelicities would of course be forgiven. The consistency of the topics - how to improve, is white better etc - is now making me think otherwise.

    As I said, if you'd care to check them out, I'd value your opinion.

    cheer

    shanks

    PS: To assist, a sample of topics and quotes from Siemowit:

    Blacks, Arabs and higher testosterone

    "Why Blacks have 19% more testosterone ? Do Arabs also have higher testosterone level ? Which nations have higher testosterone level ?"

    "Barbara A. Cohn studied samples of 15000 families. Their study showed blacks in California have higher testosterone."

    "Unfortunetly nobody tried to guess why do they have higher testosterone. And I also can't see why.

    Europeans did use a lot of physical force (90% of them were serfs or peasants who worked physical ..."

    "For example Africans had to fight against wild animals. But on the other hand Europeans fought in constant wars."

    A way to insert gene

    "Is there a way to insert gene into an ebryo ? To replace its weak gene with a new, strong one ?"

    "If its possible to do it with cattle, why can't we do it with people ?"

    "If we can create genetically better people, if we can make evolution work faster, why is it not ethical ?"

    Evolution

    "It is said that White race evolved from Black race.

    So how long would it take for a Black population to evolve into White population if that Black population would live in Europe (without racial mi ..."

    "Let's look at some negroidal characteristics

    The hair is black, crispy, and "woolly" in texture - there is no need to change such hair in European environment. Maybe straight hair gives better prot ..."

    History of racial differences

    "How long did different races evolve ?

    How long did evolution create racial differences ?

    How long did it take to evolve from black race to white race and to Asian race ?

    Are there any scient ..."

    PPS: Admins - feel free to chastise me if this seems over the top. I am aware that I may appear overly sensitive on this one.
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  25. #24  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    PPS: Admins - feel free to chastise me if this seems over the top. I am aware that I may appear overly sensitive on this one.
    I am happy with your remarks. You have quoted some of the examples that troubled me. To repeat my earlier statements, like you I do not know what Siemowit's intentions are. His posts make me uneasy. I do wish he would respond one way or another to these discussions about him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    PPS: Admins - feel free to chastise me if this seems over the top. I am aware that I may appear overly sensitive on this one.
    I am happy with your remarks. You have quoted some of the examples that troubled me. To repeat my earlier statements, like you I do not know what Siemowit's intentions are. His posts make me uneasy. I do wish he would respond one way or another to these discussions about him.
    Perhaps he isn't even aware of his own bias?

    Maybe he's gone off to sulk or is reconsidering his position?

    At least he knows that racism isn't tolerated here, so maybe he's gone off to some other forum, taking his ideas with him with the hope of finding someone sympathetic to his causes?

    Maybe the Earth isn't round, perhaps it's really cuboid? (the four corners of the globe?)

    Maybe Vodermort is a really nice guy once you get to know him?

    Maybe.....
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  27. #26  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    Maybe the Earth isn't round, perhaps it's really cuboid? (the four corners of the globe?)

    Maybe Vodermort is a really nice guy once you get to know him?

    Maybe.....
    At the risk of sounding unutterably pedantic (and yes, I have a beard and occasionally stroke it!):

    1. a cube, or cuboid, has eight corners, not six (along with six faces and 12 edges) - the tetrahedron, on the other hand, has four corners, six edges and four faces;

    2. as a kind-of Harry Potter fan, it's Voldemort, not Vodermort;

    but maybe you're right and I was being too assertive/dogmatic.

    Mea culpa?

    PS. Apropos of nothing, the funniest bumper sticker I ever saw said: "Voldemort votes Republican".
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    Maybe the Earth isn't round, perhaps it's really cuboid? (the four corners of the globe?)

    Maybe Vodermort is a really nice guy once you get to know him?

    Maybe.....
    At the risk of sounding unutterably pedantic (and yes, I have a beard and occasionally stroke it!):

    1. a cube, or cuboid, has eight corners, not six (along with six faces and 12 edges) - the tetrahedron, on the other hand, has four corners, six edges and four faces;

    2. as a kind-of Harry Potter fan, it's Voldemort, not Vodermort;

    but maybe you're right and I was being too assertive/dogmatic.

    Mea culpa?

    PS. Apropos of nothing, the funniest bumper sticker I ever saw said: "Voldemort votes Republican".
    Pedantic yes and so you should be!

    Yes you are right of course, sorry, i was living in a two dimensional world at the time.

    Much apologies for the spelling mistake a slip on the keyboard. My 13yr old who is also a H.P fan would have lynched me if he knew!

    Don't worry dogmatic is good when there's points to me made and assertive, well i probably like that a little too much, so you just keep stroking that beard :wink:

    Bumper stickers.....how about....

    Your body would look good in my trunk!?
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