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Thread: are we meat eaters

  1. #1 are we meat eaters 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Im just interested in the views of the human design and meat eating

    Are we designed to eat meat, eg forward facing binocular vision, canines and incisors etc

    Ive just been reading an argument about our saliva working best on carbohydrates and the ph level of our stomachs being wrong for digestion of meat

    Whats your views?


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    We have the teeth of omnivores.

    Unless people know more than evolution we are omnivores.


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    I understand we can only efficiently extract energy from meat by cooking it (and thereby breaking down the cell structure first). Now my biology is worse than my philosophy but I thought enzymes were responsible for breaking things up. My simple logic tells me we have adapted to eat meat but as I said my biology is sadly in decay.... A fruedian slip methinks
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    Human's digestion can't do anything for seeds or fruits with high amount of fiber. That is why fibers are important, they go straight through, and clean our intestines.
    If we we're meant to be vegans, our digestion should be able to deal with seeds and fiber. Cows can eat grass, they can digest it. If we would eat grass, we wouldn't get any energy.

    We are able to eat raw fish and meat. In a restaurant, you can get your steak almost raw if you want, and sushi is is very popular. These indicate, that our ability to digest meat is much, much better than our ability to digest all green stuff.

    Our teeth are designed for meat. We have canine teeth, and our teeth in the back are made to chew. Vegetarian animal don't have such teeth.
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    I totally agree, the problem im having is a vegan says our canine and incisors do not bare any relationship to any other carnivores, which i reply is because we are omnivores and that our teeth are more general purpose, but they still argue that our canines should be more cone like
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    chimps have pretty big canines, but they're no more carnivorous than we are
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    chimps have pretty big canines, but they're no more carnivorous than we are
    I think in their case it is more a physical feature that stayed for its intimidatory value and for self defence. I don’t think they are needed for feeding.
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    my aim was to point out that big canines don't have to mean carnivory, thereby countering the vegan claim in captain caveman's post that if we had been carnivores we would have had larger (or more cone-like) canines

    teeth may retain a certain shape for other purposes than pure food processing
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    my aim was to point out that big canines don't have to mean carnivory, thereby countering the vegan claim in captain caveman's post that if we had been carnivores we would have had larger (or more cone-like) canines

    teeth may retain a certain shape for other purposes than pure food processing
    yeah, i suppose its even more so in the case of gorillas
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    my aim was to point out that big canines don't have to mean carnivory, thereby countering the vegan claim in captain caveman's post that if we had been carnivores we would have had larger (or more cone-like) canines

    teeth may retain a certain shape for other purposes than pure food processing
    yeah, i suppose its even more so in the case of gorillas
    A lot of primates have some pretty nasty teeth, usually for intimidation and fighting, as others have mentioned. Just look at baboons.



    However, both baboons and chimpanzees will also hunt for meat. It's very possible that primate canines evolved for both purposes.
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    Are we meat eaters? - Yes, I eat meat ergo I am a meat eater.
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    let's just keep in mind that there's a wide range going from pure carnivory to pure herbivory (with a sideline into frugivory and insectivory to complicate matters)

    just looking at the order Carnivora, cats are the nearest to total carnivory, whilst giant pandas are nearest to herbivory
    if i had to place humans in that spectrum, it'd be not far off from bears
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    Personally I favour more meat over vegetables and fruit. The acids in fruit doesn't go down well and vegetables although filling don't quite offer the same satisfaction of eating meat. I also now I think about it am more enthusiastic when eating meat than any other food, quite curious to say in the least. Am I just a wierdo or do others feel like that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Am I just a wierdo ?
    do you really want me to answer that ?
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    Once tools were invented, our ancestors would not have needed big canines to kill or cut up their meat, so that trait is not necessary for meat eating. How do your vegan friends explain the projectile points, animal bones, etc. found at paleolithic sites?
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    That's a good point, Harold. Our cultural advances have supplemented us in places that we did not evolve naturally.

    The transition to meat eating was a significant one in human evolution - access to this more energy-rich food source probably went a long way towards furthering our progress. I think it's only natural that we love meat. And, that we love grilled meat in particular. Meat cooked over a fire - that's how we ate it, for a long time. I do love my veggies and fruits, but I could eat fancy steak every day of the week. Mmmmm.
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    yeah, that makes sense harold :-D
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    And then knives and cooking mean there's very little effort in chewing anyway, indeed some older people survive quite happily without any teeth left.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    And then knives and cooking mean there's very little effort in chewing anyway, indeed some older people survive quite happily without any teeth left.
    If you stop withdrawing cash from your pension middle aged .
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    Actually, the size of the canine is not really a good predictor for the diet.

    The amount of complexity is.

    Evans, A.R., Wilson, G.P., Fortelius, M., & Jernvall, J. (2007). High-level similarity of dentitions in carnivorans and rodents. Nature 445: 78-81.

    There is an unmistaken correlation between complexity and diet. The only thing you do is measure the amount of slopes on a tooth and you know whether the animal is a carnivore or a herbivore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    And then knives and cooking mean there's very little effort in chewing anyway, indeed some older people survive quite happily without any teeth left.
    If you stop withdrawing cash from your pension middle aged .
    Svwillmer, you could be the next Einstein, all you have to do is put as much effort into learning science as you do into generating crap!
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    And then knives and cooking mean there's very little effort in chewing anyway, indeed some older people survive quite happily without any teeth left.
    If you stop withdrawing cash from your pension middle aged .
    Svwillmer, you could be the next Einstein, all you have to do is put as much effort into learning science as you do into generating crap!
    luckily it wasn't a quote from the bad book :wink:
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    I've been a vegetarian for 16 years.

    Meat seems to be a particularly man thing, or am i being biased, but the amount of men i have heard say 'What you need darling is a bit of pork sausage' or hunk of beef or meat pie or whatever!





    What about bits of meat that get left in your intestines rotting away for years, especially if you don't eat enough fiber?

    Just walking past a butchers shop makes me retch. The smell!

    When you buy a piecs of meat do you really know how old it is and also what's in it?

    The animals get pumped full of crap so they fatten up and don't get diseaesed, which you then eat and on the shelves they add preservatives and food colouring.

    What you are actually eating when you buy meat is rotting flesh that could have sat their for weeks! YUCK!

    You are no better than flesh eating zombies the lot of ya!
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    Minx, I understand the whole vegetarian thing. I can think about the poor animal through his life, living with no purpose other than being eaten. Then when they are quite big and fat enough, an iron spike is driven into their brain. In a fast slaughter line, cattle can go from alive to steaks in 20 minutes or less! If you look at a steak, I can imagine that it was once part of his back and even imagine it flexing while his playing with his friends. But then I take a bite and YEAH! Oh, I like green beans too…..

    A slight twist on the whole meat thing, have you ever thought about the evolutionary benefit of having tasty meat combined with being stupid? Cattle are more numerous today than their ancestors ever were in the wild!
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    I am not vegetarian but I only eat meat where an animal has been slaughtered to feed many, such as a cow, chicken, pig lamb, Tuna cod etc.

    I do not agree with killing large numbers of smaller creatures just for a single snack. If we all stopped using animal products then cows, sheep,goats would become extinct.

    THese (larger) animals are protected by man until he harvests them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    the amount of men i have heard say 'What you need darling is a bit of pork sausage'
    i've never said that to a woman
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    No i'm sorry you are not going to tempt me with the old
    "Well if we didn't eat meat their wouldn't be any animals' argument, especially when so many animal species are being threatened or becoming extinct all over the world.
    Animals that are protected species.

    I do not want my world to be full of cattle grids and squares of grazing land full of animals with a big seared M on their arses just to satisfy the urge for a Big Mac or a fat wedge of steak on your plate.

    If we kept natural habitats for all animals they wouldn't become threatened or extinct, including cows and sheep and chickens.

    And as for the argument of an animal feeding more people well it doesn't. It has been proven that a field of seed grain or vegetables will feed far more people than a field with Cows!

    So there

    P.s Harold, you look too nice to say that to a woman. The ones that say it are usually having a flesh feast at barbecues, canned up with too much beer and poking fun at my grilled veggie sausage.
    Carnivores!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    If we kept natural habitats for all animals they wouldn't become threatened or extinct, including cows and sheep and chickens.

    And as for the argument of an animal feeding more people well it doesn't. It has been proven that a field of seed grain or vegetables will feed far more people than a field with Cows!
    but do we want still more people on this planet ?
    + where do you think the natural habitats would be if there were 10 billion people or more ? just the areas that are too inhospitable for us to make a living such as deserts or very high mountains ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    If we kept natural habitats for all animals they wouldn't become threatened or extinct, including cows and sheep and chickens.

    And as for the argument of an animal feeding more people well it doesn't. It has been proven that a field of seed grain or vegetables will feed far more people than a field with Cows!
    but do we want still more people on this planet ?
    + where do you think the natural habitats would be if there were 10 billion people or more ? just the areas that are too inhospitable for us to make a living such as deserts or very high mountains ?
    Well yes obviously it's due to human overpopulation, greed and ignorance which are threatening many species.

    Given the choice, i would much rather have less humans and more of a diversity of animals and more wild places for them to live.
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    Sorry minxy, sheep and cows are so domesticated (and some other animals) that they have evolved to a point where they cannot survive without man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Sorry minxy, sheep and cows are so domesticated (and some other animals) that they have evolved to a point where they cannot survive without man.
    Yeah, bit like human beans!
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  33. #32 Re: are we meat eaters 
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Im just interested in the views of the human design and meat eating

    Are we designed to eat meat, eg forward facing binocular vision, canines and incisors etc

    Ive just been reading an argument about our saliva working best on carbohydrates and the ph level of our stomachs being wrong for digestion of meat

    Whats your views?
    What rubbish. We aren't "designed" to eat anything. We're hardly out of step with other primates in our omnivory, but, even so, evolution continues in spite of Man. Adulthood lactose tolerance, for example, is a recent neoteny. If you're interested in optimizing your diet, speak with a nutritionist, not dumbass vegans.
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    MOD EDIT: TEXT DELETED. READ your PMS AND DO NOT ever again delete a mod edit. I repeat, personal insults are highly encouraged.
    My point exactly.
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  35. #34  
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    Man insulin, I never say this much but; Way to own. :-D
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Meat seems to be a particularly man thing, or am i being biased, but the amount of men i have heard say 'What you need darling is a bit of pork sausage' or hunk of beef or meat pie or whatever!
    Minxy, meat has probably long been associated culturally with masculinity as men that provided well for their families were the ones capable of hunting and bringing home high quality food stuffs - aka, meat. Hunting is dangerous and difficult relative to herbivory. But an appreciation for meat is by no means limited to men. Women tend to like salads more only because meat is fattier and we all know about women and body image these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    Only a woman could so persistently and determinedly engage in such futility.
    Plenty a man has persisted determinedly in vegetarianism for longer than that, as well as persisting in a variety of other futile pastimes. Nor would I call vegetarianism necessarily futile - if done properly, you can live a full and healthy life as a vegetarian and suffer little if at all from not eating meat.

    Now how about people actually talk about the issue instead of throwing ridiculous sexist remarks at each other for good measure.
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    We tend to require more protein, which constitutes a physical limitation. I find her sexist attitude highly offensive, and I will not allow it to pass without remark. Bigotry is bigotry, whether or not it is socially sanctioned. Men are treated like rubbish in this culture, and it's getting old.

    Our ancestors were successful land predators. Gorilla-like knuckle-walking was a precursor to our bipedalism, as supported by our like feature of strengthened wrist bones. Our ancestors probably fought rival predators (and each other) via the simple tactic of standing upright and punching them in the nose. It's a highly effective maneuver that few other animals are capable of. Even grizzlies are limited to swats and round punches, whereas human beings, even today, can deliver a volley of stunning blows all at one time. If trees in our habitat were thinning at the time, we would also have needed a light but physically powerful frame, and a more protein-rich diet would have assisted us in this transition.

    This only sounds strange if you fail to take into account our most recent evolutionary events. It is probable that we learned to walk upright long before the advent of true intelligence because it is our upright posture that is most likely to have caused our great leap into true intelligence.

    Ironically, our upright fighting posture, while powerful, can make premature births unpleasantly common if we stay in it all of the time. However, it has advantages while walking. Even chimpanzees, if taught to walk bipedally, can cover greater distances per calorie than in their natural stance. As it turns out, though, premature birth could be the key to our intelligence. It could be that our high intelligence was only possible due to us missing bone structure that we would otherwise have grown in the last few months of pregnancy. Missing this bone structure would have allowed the brain more space in which to develop. Although we lost a great deal, we gained something more interesting in return.

    Our earliest ancestors had much more powerful jaws, and their diets would have required significantly more calcium. Natural hunters.
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  38. #37  
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    *COUGH*MBlooming*COUGH*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    MOD EDIT: TEXT DELETED. READ your PMS AND DO NOT ever again delete a mod edit. I repeat, personal insults are highly encouraged.
    My point exactly.
    hahahah

    Watch out guys, this chap has real balls!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    MOD EDIT: TEXT DELETED. READ your PMS AND DO NOT ever again delete a mod edit. I repeat, personal insults are highly encouraged.
    My point exactly.
    hahahah :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Watch out guys, this chap has real balls!
    Well, that is what it said last time you edited.

    Anyway, the confusion over our proper diet stems simply from the fact that humans are uniquely able to cook their food, whether it is meat or vegetable, into something that can be easily digested. We have evolved throughout our existence on this Earth. Until we have taken our genome into our own hands, we will continue to adapt, even here in an age in which premature death is almost unheard of. There are still people who produce more children vs. those who produce fewer, and there are still people who can attract good genes vs. those who attract poor genes. The same processes that brought us here continue, throughout our daily lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    We tend to require more protein, which constitutes a physical limitation. I find her sexist attitude highly offensive, and I will not allow it to pass without remark. Bigotry is bigotry, whether or not it is socially sanctioned. Men are treated like rubbish in this culture, and it's getting old.
    Ah yes. And the best way to fight bigotry and set a higher example is to throw it right back in her face. Excellent work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    Our ancestors were successful land predators. Gorilla-like knuckle-walking was a precursor to our bipedalism, as supported by our like feature of strengthened wrist bones. Our ancestors probably fought rival predators (and each other) via the simple tactic of standing upright and punching them in the nose. It's a highly effective maneuver that few other animals are capable of. Even grizzlies are limited to swats and round punches, whereas human beings, even today, can deliver a volley of stunning blows all at one time. If trees in our habitat were thinning at the time, we would also have needed a light but physically powerful frame, and a more protein-rich diet would have assisted us in this transition.

    This only sounds strange if you fail to take into account our most recent evolutionary events. It is probable that we learned to walk upright long before the advent of true intelligence because it is our upright posture that is most likely to have caused our great leap into true intelligence.

    Ironically, our upright fighting posture, while powerful, can make premature births unpleasantly common if we stay in it all of the time. However, it has advantages while walking. Even chimpanzees, if taught to walk bipedally, can cover greater distances per calorie than in their natural stance. As it turns out, though, premature birth could be the key to our intelligence. It could be that our high intelligence was only possible due to us missing bone structure that we would otherwise have grown in the last few months of pregnancy. Missing this bone structure would have allowed the brain more space in which to develop. Although we lost a great deal, we gained something more interesting in return.

    Our earliest ancestors had much more powerful jaws, and their diets would have required significantly more calcium. Natural hunters.
    I agree with most of your points save for a few details. Bipedalism likely came about because our ancestors' environment was changing from dense jungle to spotty patches of trees, creating the need to travel farther to find food. As you mentioned, human bipedalism is a far more efficient mode of travel.

    However, chimpanzees walking bipedally expend the same amount of energy as they do while walking on all fours, as was found in a study that is summarized here. So for humans to achieve our more efficient gait, our anatomy had to change. This change in anatomy made the birth canal smaller, so that we could not completely (or almost completely) develop in the womb like most other animals, as you said, because we would not fit out of the birth canal. This is also thought to contribute greatly to human culture, as offspring are far more moldable now that they are exposed to the outside environment before they have completely finished developing.

    Our upright stance gave us the greater dexterity that you mentioned, and brain development and hunting probably evolved hand in hand, as greater intelligence allows for more successful hunting and more meat allows for greater growth of high-resource requiring organs like our brains.
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    Anyway, the confusion over our proper diet stems simply from the fact that humans are uniquely able to cook their food, whether it is meat or vegetable, into something that can be easily digested. We have evolved throughout our existence on this Earth. Until we have taken our genome into our own hands, we will continue to adapt, even here in an age in which premature death is almost unheard of. There are still people who produce more children vs. those who produce fewer, and there are still people who can attract good genes vs. those who attract poor genes. The same processes that brought us here continue, throughout our daily lives.
    I think a few pages back I indicated that we get more from meat because we cook it, I seem to remember that this breaks down the cellular structure more than chewing raw meat alone can do, it also means we have no need to evolve a set of canine teeth, out of interest do you know if cooking came before or after the spear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Ah yes. And the best way to fight bigotry and set a higher example is to throw it right back in her face. Excellent work.
    What's wrong with wrath and vengeance?

    I agree with most of your points save for a few details. Bipedalism likely came about because our ancestors' environment was changing from dense jungle to spotty patches of trees, creating the need to travel farther to find food. As you mentioned, human bipedalism is a far more efficient mode of travel.
    I'm using bears as a precedent. The great apes are similar enough to them that I feel this is valid. Bears don't go walking about on two legs because they are not yet stable enough in this position to feel comfortable with it on a regular basis.

    However, chimpanzees walking bipedally expend the same amount of energy as they do while walking on all fours, as was found in a study that is summarized here.
    Another study suggests what I was saying, that they walk more efficiently on two legs. Unfortunately, this was just something shown on a television station, and I just happened to notice it as I was passing through. I was readying my chamomile tisane at the time, to which I had developed a slight dependency due to various stressors.

    So for humans to achieve our more efficient gait, our anatomy had to change. This change in anatomy made the birth canal smaller, so that we could not completely (or almost completely) develop in the womb like most other animals, as you said, because we would not fit out of the birth canal. This is also thought to contribute greatly to human culture, as offspring are far more moldable now that they are exposed to the outside environment before they have completely finished developing.
    You know, I knew I had that wrong. I was trying to recall that information from a lecture session from last year. Yes, that's the theory I was alluding to. It seems very likely, really.

    Our upright stance gave us the greater dexterity that you mentioned, and brain development and hunting probably evolved hand in hand, as greater intelligence allows for more successful hunting and more meat allows for greater growth of high-resource requiring organs like our brains.
    Yes, absolutely. Successful boxing, even, requires a more high-powered brain. For example, the higher intelligence of tigers, as compared to lions, may be related to the fact that they, unlike lions, can fight with both paws at one time. This may also be related to the fact that they can swim.

    Isn't that interesting to think about? Do you think we may have gained part of our intelligence as swimmers? This is a uniquely human quality, as apes go. It would also explain our speech: your control over your breathing heavily effects how well you swim, and this control is important to speech as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    What's wrong with wrath and vengeance?
    A lot of the same things that are wrong with bigotry.

    I'm using bears as a precedent. The great apes are similar enough to them that I feel this is valid. Bears don't go walking about on two legs because they are not yet stable enough in this position to feel comfortable with it on a regular basis.
    As a precedent for what? Their inability to form a fist and throw a boxer's punch? A bear's pure mass and strength that they evolved as predators more than makes up for their inability to stand up and fence. Bears to do not need to stand on a regular basis because it does not significantly increase their reproductive success. Bears aren't that similar to great apes. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make.

    Isn't that interesting to think about? Do you think we may have gained part of our intelligence as swimmers? This is a uniquely human quality, as apes go. It would also explain our speech: your control over your breathing heavily effects how well you swim, and this control is important to speech as well.
    The aquatic ape hypothesis is pretty popular with some people, but I'm a little skeptical at this point. I'd want some evidence of swimming being a key component to our reproductive success, to the point that so many of our features evolved to improve our swimming ability.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    I was readying my chamomile tisane at the time, to which I had developed a slight dependency due to various stressors. "
    Perhaps you should try doubling the dose and try adding a bit of skullcap?

    I've heard the chemicals and stuff they put into the animals and the meat can trigger aggression and stress.

    Perhaps that's why alot of men love fighting and wars!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paralith
    Minxy, meat has probably long been associated culturally with masculinity as men that provided well for their families were the ones capable of hunting and bringing home high quality food stuffs - aka, meat.
    Ah yes such a long time ago now, i can hardly remember. Isn't it about time we evolved further if we are so good at apapting to our environment.

    And we are supposed to have this big fat intelligent brain!

    It doesn't make sense to eat the meat humans do on such a large scale.
    As we speak valuable rain forests and natural habitats are being ruined to make way for grazing land because Americans are addicted to steak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paralith
    Women tend to like salads more only because meat is fattier and we all know about women and body image these days.
    Oh for goodness sake, do you think that's the only reason people become vegetarians?
    Do you think they might also decide from health point of view? Because they are concerned about what they put in their body? That they might not want intestines crammed with rotten putrid meat?
    Do you think that a sense of responsability and altruism might also form this choice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    I've heard the chemicals and stuff they put into the animals and the meat can trigger aggression and stress.

    Perhaps that's why alot of men love fighting and wars!?
    If there really are chemicals being put into livestock feed that make them more aggressive, which I highly doubt they would as abnormally aggressive animals are more difficult to take care of (if you have a source to refute me then feel free to provide it), then they would effect both men and women who eat them.

    Ah yes such a long time ago now, i can hardly remember. Isn't it about time we evolved further if we are so good at apapting to our environment.

    And we are supposed to have this big fat intelligent brain!

    It doesn't make sense to eat the meat humans do on such a large scale.
    As we speak valuable rain forests and natural habitats are being ruined to make way for grazing land because Americans are addicted to steak.
    Not that long ago at all, evolutionarily speaking. And it was a cultural tradition that promoted greater reproductive success for those who followed it.

    There is a difference between saying that eating meat in itself is wrong, and that the practices by which livestock is kept today are wrong. I agree that many of those practices need to be updated for the sake of the environment and humane treatment of the animals.

    Oh for goodness sake, do you think that's the only reason people become vegetarians?
    Do you think they might also decide from health point of view? Because they are concerned about what they put in their body? That they might not want intestines crammed with rotten putrid meat?
    Do you think that a sense of responsability and altruism might also form this choice?
    I never said that's why people are vegetarian. You commented that men seem to like meat more, and I explained why, and I added that women may also seem to like meat less, and why. I was not addressing vegetarianism at all. No need to defend what I'm not attacking, Minxy.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    Cortisol is a regulator of immune response controlled by the adrenal cortex.

    It is the hormone produced in ours and other animals bodies when we do intensive exercise and especially when we are under stress.

    Playing many different roles in your body, cortisol can have a negative impact on sleep, mood, sex drive, bone health, ligament health, cardiovascular health and athletic performance, potentially causing fatigue and inflammation. Its primary functions are to increase protein breakdown, inhibit glucose uptake and increase lipolysis (the breakdown of fats).
    a chronic elevated cortisol level has adverse effects on your health, mood, body composition and performance. Here's the cycle: elevated cortisol secretion from physical or mental stress causes fat, protein and carbohydrates to be rapidly mobilized in order for you to take action against the stressor. This is sometimes referred to as the 'fight or flight' response
    http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/nut...sol-000667.php

    High levels of Cortisol produced in animals during slaughter is still in the meat when you eat it!

    High levels of Cortisol in humans increases anxiety and stress.

    Also..............

    Fear in animals during slaughter causes dramatic reduction of vitality and sexual potency in humans who eat the meat
    http://www.scn.org/~bk269/fear.html

    Not only can eating meat make you obese and stressed (high stress increases aggression) but it can also make you less virile and impotent!

    Hows that for irony of the macho image of meat eating!

    There is also evidence that women who consume alot meat whilst pregnant give birth to sons with poor sperm counts and even infertility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    That they might not want intestines crammed with rotten putrid meat?
    Urban legend - almost certainly made up by someone with an anti-meat agenda. There is no evidence that meat (putrid, undigested or otherwise) builds up in the colon and/or rest of the intestines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    That they might not want intestines crammed with rotten putrid meat?
    Urban legend - almost certainly made up by someone with an anti-meat agenda. There is no evidence that meat (putrid, undigested or otherwise) builds up in the colon and/or rest of the intestines.
    Obviously you have never experienced an enema.

    Go and have one or preferably a course of treatment.

    You will be amazed at what comes out and also feel a lot better for it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    That they might not want intestines crammed with rotten putrid meat?
    Urban legend - almost certainly made up by someone with an anti-meat agenda. There is no evidence that meat (putrid, undigested or otherwise) builds up in the colon and/or rest of the intestines.
    Obviously you have never experienced an enema.

    Go and have one or preferably a course of treatment.

    You will be amazed at what comes out and also feel a lot better for it
    Had the feeling this would come up.

    An enema brings out anything you've got - vegetarian or otherwise - and there's always a little bit there that you haven't yet defecated. Take your enemas regularly, and you will regularly find large amounts of stuff coming out - this isn't, unfortunately for your thesis, long-held putrefying lumps of meat that would otherwise stay in your gut for years.

    I repeat, urban legend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Cortisol is a regulator of immune response controlled by the adrenal cortex. It is the hormone produced in ours and other animals bodies when we do intensive exercise and especially when we are under stress.

    Playing many different roles in your body, cortisol can have a negative impact on sleep, mood, sex drive, bone health, ligament health, cardiovascular health and athletic performance, potentially causing fatigue and inflammation. Its primary functions are to increase protein breakdown, inhibit glucose uptake and increase lipolysis (the breakdown of fats).
    a chronic elevated cortisol level has adverse effects on your health, mood, body composition and performance. Here's the cycle: elevated cortisol secretion from physical or mental stress causes fat, protein and carbohydrates to be rapidly mobilized in order for you to take action against the stressor. This is sometimes referred to as the 'fight or flight' response
    http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/nut...sol-000667.php

    High levels of Cortisol produced in animals during slaughter is still in the meat when you eat it! High levels of Cortisol in humans increases anxiety and stress. Also..............

    Fear in animals during slaughter causes dramatic reduction of vitality and sexual potency in humans who eat the meat
    http://www.scn.org/~bk269/fear.html

    Not only can eating meat make you obese and stressed (high stress increases aggression) but it can also make you less virile and impotent! Hows that for irony of the macho image of meat eating! There is also evidence that women who consume alot meat whilst pregnant give birth to sons with poor sperm counts and even infertility.
    Hmm. You went from added chemicals causing aggression and stress in livestock to the act of slaughter causing stress in livestock. Alright, I can play along.

    Of course too much of a hormone like cortisol isn't good for anybody. However, what's more important to meat companies, is that it also makes the meat taste bad. It's in their economic interest to slaughter their animals in the least stressful way possible.

    Most larger companies, especially in industrialized countries, probably do this. Of course not everyone across the world takes these precautions yet, but I think it's only a matter of time before laws are put into place of that effect, if nothing else to ensure humane treatment of the animals.

    Also, eating meat is the not the only thing that makes you obese and stressed. If you ate nothing but pasta with creme sauce and other fatty carb foods all your life, then you'd definitely be obese and have several other health problems as well. Working a full time job while raising children can make you stressed (though I doubt the necessary link between stress and aggression). Too much of anything is basically bad for you. We're not espousing a meat-only diet, here. Of course that's not healthy.

    I'd be interested in seeing that evidence about pregnant women who eat a lot of meat. And besides, what counts as "a lot" of meat? Significantly greater than average? Slightly greater than average?
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy

    Go and have one or preferably a course of treatment.

    You will be amazed at what comes out and also feel a lot better for it
    Everything from a bicycle wheel to a dead Hampster maybe?

    A scottish relative of mine, a nurse in a Glasgow A&E has some pretty amusing stories, like the chap who said he slipped whilst taking in the milk in his PJs, fell onto a bottle and well it 'dissapeared' completely requiring it's removal at the hospital. AFter the op apparently they gave him some marbles they had also recovered at which he looked rather embarressed and replied that he would speak to the dairy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    I was readying my chamomile tisane at the time, to which I had developed a slight dependency due to various stressors. "
    Perhaps you should try doubling the dose and try adding a bit of skullcap?

    I've heard the chemicals and stuff they put into the animals and the meat can trigger aggression and stress.

    Perhaps that's why alot of men love fighting and wars!?
    You're mistaken in assuming that I suffer from chronic stress. I assume that this was your ill-intentioned insinuation. I'm HFA. I naturally have very low cortisol levels. However, verbal aggressiveness is characteristic of the disorder, and this seems to have something to do with how our bodies manage norepinephrine.

    And we are supposed to have this big fat intelligent brain!
    I do, in any case.

    It doesn't make sense to eat the meat humans do on such a large scale.
    It makes perfect sense to me. It tastes good.

    As we speak valuable rain forests and natural habitats are being ruined to make way for grazing land because Americans are addicted to steak.
    Chicken, in my case. I can't eat steak. It makes me break out. I think I have some kind of allergy to it or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paralith
    Women tend to like salads more only because meat is fattier and we all know about women and body image these days.
    Oh for goodness sake, do you think that's the only reason people become vegetarians?
    No, and I know for a fact that you said this strictly to insinuate that Paralith is an idiot. If you're too cowardly to insult him directly, go trolling somewhere else.

    Do you think they might also decide from health point of view?
    Why? My diet begins and ends with poultry and dairy, and I'm in better than average health. My metabolism just seems suited to it. To tell you the truth, I'm actually pretty sexy.

    Because they are concerned about what they put in their body? That they might not want intestines crammed with rotten putrid meat?
    So...instead, you want your guts filled with compost?

    Do you think that a sense of responsability and altruism might also form this choice?
    I used to, but then I got to know a few vegans. If you ask me, it's just another stupid sub-culture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Cortisol is a regulator of immune response controlled by the adrenal cortex.

    It is the hormone produced in ours and other animals bodies when we do intensive exercise and especially when we are under stress.
    This is pretty common knowledge these days. However, this only appears during intensive exercise in those who are unaccustomed to such physical stress. For others, although some cortisol may be released, but its effects are generally countered by the effects of dynorphin, endorphins, and enkephalins, all of which have neuroprotective effects and, contrarily to cortisol, enhancing effects upon immune function. Both enkephalin and dynorphin have positive effects on learning and memory, and they are beneficial toward hippocampal health.

    Playing many different roles in your body, cortisol can have a negative impact on sleep, mood, sex drive, bone health, ligament health, cardiovascular health and athletic performance, potentially causing fatigue and inflammation.
    Cortisol is not a pro-inflammatory compound, and it actually serves several very important functions. It has suppressive effects upon the immune system, though, and this leaves us wide open to infection if we're experiencing elevated levels of it for long periods. However, healthy levels of cortisol are necessary for physical health, and it is entirely a myth that its effects are necessarily negative.

    High levels of Cortisol produced in animals during slaughter is still in the meat when you eat it!
    This is one of the favorite lies of the vegan subculture. Most methods of slaughter used today are very humane, and this is partially due to this having a positive effect on the quality of yield.

    Not only can eating meat make you obese and stressed (high stress increases aggression) but it can also make you less virile and impotent!
    You are incorrect. Meat is one of the most abundant sources of niacin found in nature, which actually serves to increase sexual performance.

    Hows that for irony of the macho image of meat eating!
    I'm a poof. I don't have a macho image. I just like chicken. And cheese.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Quote Originally Posted by Insulin Mishap
    I was readying my chamomile tisane at the time, to which I had developed a slight dependency due to various stressors. "
    Perhaps you should try doubling the dose and try adding a bit of skullcap?

    I've heard the chemicals and stuff they put into the animals and the meat can trigger aggression and stress.

    Perhaps that's why alot of men love fighting and wars!?
    You're mistaken in assuming that I suffer from chronic stress. I assume that this was your ill-intentioned insinuation. I'm HFA. I naturally have very low cortisol levels. However, verbal aggressiveness is characteristic of the disorder, and this seems to have something to do with how our bodies manage norepinephrine.

    And we are supposed to have this big fat intelligent brain!
    I do, in any case.

    It doesn't make sense to eat the meat humans do on such a large scale.
    It makes perfect sense to me. It tastes good.

    As we speak valuable rain forests and natural habitats are being ruined to make way for grazing land because Americans are addicted to steak.
    Chicken, in my case. I can't eat steak. It makes me break out. I think I have some kind of allergy to it or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paralith
    Women tend to like salads more only because meat is fattier and we all know about women and body image these days.
    Oh for goodness sake, do you think that's the only reason people become vegetarians?
    No, and I know for a fact that you said this strictly to insinuate that Paralith is an idiot. If you're too cowardly to insult him directly, go trolling somewhere else.

    Do you think they might also decide from health point of view?
    Why? My diet begins and ends with poultry and dairy, and I'm in better than average health. My metabolism just seems suited to it. To tell you the truth, I'm actually pretty sexy.

    Because they are concerned about what they put in their body? That they might not want intestines crammed with rotten putrid meat?
    So...instead, you want your guts filled with compost?

    Do you think that a sense of responsability and altruism might also form this choice?
    I used to, but then I got to know a few vegans. If you ask me, it's just another stupid sub-culture.
    If there's one thing this forum gives me is a damn good chuckle at how so called 'Intelligent' people can so foolishly and gullibly led up their own backsides.

    If people didn't have such large over-inflated egos' and sense of importance, they wouldn't need such a huge army to defend it.

    What a shame and a waste of bloody time.

    When you've all finished licking your wounds, here's a bit of advice-

    If you don't like debating and argueing and you get upset when people disagree with you

    DON'T take part in forums!

    Oh and yes - i would much rather have a gut full of of compost than putrid meat. If you analysed and compared them, there would be a huge difference in the culture found,
    and i can guarantee my shit smells better than yours! 8)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    If there's one thing this forum gives me is a damn good chuckle at how so called 'Intelligent' people can so foolishly and gullibly led up their own backsides.

    If people didn't have such large over-inflated egos' and sense of importance, they wouldn't need such a huge army to defend it.

    What a shame and a waste of bloody time.

    When you've all finished licking your wounds, here's a bit of advice-

    If you don't like debating and argueing and you get upset when people disagree with you

    DON'T take part in forums!

    Oh and yes - i would much rather have a gut full of of compost than putrid meat. If you analysed and compared them, there would be a huge difference in the culture found,
    and i can guarantee my shit smells better than yours! 8)
    I'm sure your faecal fragrance exceeds that of all others. :P Reminds me of a female friend who never admitted to having stinky afflatus: always said "I'm going to make the loo smell of roses"!

    What's with the ever-changing avatar? Is there a story there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    If there's one thing this forum gives me is a damn good chuckle at how so called 'Intelligent' people can so foolishly and gullibly led up their own backsides.

    If people didn't have such large over-inflated egos' and sense of importance, they wouldn't need such a huge army to defend it.

    What a shame and a waste of bloody time.

    When you've all finished licking your wounds, here's a bit of advice-

    If you don't like debating and argueing and you get upset when people disagree with you

    DON'T take part in forums!

    Oh and yes - i would much rather have a gut full of of compost than putrid meat. If you analysed and compared them, there would be a huge difference in the culture found,
    and i can guarantee my shit smells better than yours! 8)
    I'm sure your faecal fragrance exceeds that of all others. :P Reminds me of a female friend who never admitted to having stinky afflatus: always said "I'm going to make the loo smell of roses"!

    What's with the ever-changing avatar? Is there a story there?
    Well of course!

    Us girls never ever ever smell bad, unless we eat rotting corpses.

    The avatar changes with response, reflection, like a storyboard i suppose and to stop me getting bored to death or forming a pictorial identity set in stone.

    And just because i want to........

    Now if you will excuse me but i am now going off to wipe my fragrant arse :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    If there's one thing this forum gives me is a damn good chuckle at how so called 'Intelligent' people can so foolishly and gullibly led up their own backsides.
    So you concede to being a troll? Honest question.

    When you've all finished licking your wounds,
    Yes. I will concede that you have gotten what you wanted. Like a fool, I fell for your barbs, and I gave you precisely what you come to this forum seeking: entertainment. I revealed myself as being vulnerable to your flame-bait, and I gave you an amusing display of petty anger. In doing so, I wrecked the credibility of my position. I have given you one more ounce of power over this forum.

    Go fuck yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    [If there's one thing this forum gives me is a damn good chuckle at how so called 'Intelligent' people can so foolishly and gullibly led up their own backsides.

    If people didn't have such large over-inflated egos' and sense of importance, they wouldn't need such a huge army to defend it.
    What does this have to do with the subject of the discussion? Can you explain how egos and armies relate to diets?
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    You are becoming boring now

    In order to prevent cluttering up the thread further with banal grizzling please refer to your PM

    P.s Trolling? It's easy to upset people when they don't like people expressing difference in opinion. And i'm not even trying!
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    lol, I see. Trying to put the thread back on track = boring and trolling. Whatever you say, Minxy.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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