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Thread: Where are the mathmatician monkeys?

  1. #1 Where are the mathmatician monkeys? 
    Forum Freshman Tony John C's Avatar
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    Well humans can do math, and humans came from monkeys. Then why can't i go and buy a monkey to do my math homework? Given advanced calculus and statistical analysis are a little advanded for our furry friends, but we should have some who could. Also where is the half monkey, half human part of town? Where is my missing giant gap of ancestors? If we can find human skeletons and primate skeletons, where is the huge amount of skeletons from the middle? 8)

    a side note, if you do find a monkey that can do adv. calc, please let me buy him, i'm too lazy!


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  3. #2 Re: Where are the mathmatician monkeys? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Well humans can do math, and humans came from monkeys. Then why can't i go and buy a monkey to do my math homework? Given advanced calculus and statistical analysis are a little advanded for our furry friends, but we should have some who could.
    Should? Why should we? Evolution doesn't follow human rules. Monkeys do not have the cerebral capacity for the abstract reasoning required to do complex math. Though they can order numerosities, aka, count.

    Also where is the half monkey, half human part of town? Where is my missing giant gap of ancestors? If we can find human skeletons and primate skeletons, where is the huge amount of skeletons from the middle?
    It's called the hominid fossil record, and there is oodles of literature on it. Human evolution is a popular subject. Start by looking up australopithecus.


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    lucy.

    other found skeletons of australopithecus is:

    * Laetoli footprints
    * AL 129-1
    * STS 5 (Mrs. Ples)
    * STS 14
    * STS 71
    * Taung Child
    * Selam

    heres a family tree:



    some hominids.
    * Homo (humans)
    * *Paranthropus
    * *Australopithecus
    * *Sahelanthropus
    * *Orrorin
    * *Ardipithecus
    * *Kenyanthropus

    nice website: http://www.becominghuman.org/
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  5. #4 Re: Where are the mathmatician monkeys? 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Well humans can do math, and humans came from monkeys. Then why can't i go and buy a monkey to do my math homework? Given advanced calculus and statistical analysis are a little advanded for our furry friends, but we should have some who could. Also where is the half monkey, half human part of town? Where is my missing giant gap of ancestors? If we can find human skeletons and primate skeletons, where is the huge amount of skeletons from the middle? 8)

    a side note, if you do find a monkey that can do adv. calc, please let me buy him, i'm too lazy!
    apparently you are the one human specimen that cannot do the math.

    the chance bones are fossilised is rare under optimal conditions.

    Calculate the odds that all intermediate forms are fossilized.

    Maybe it is too much to ask for.
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  6. #5 Re: Where are the mathmatician monkeys? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Also where is the half monkey, half human part of town? Where is my missing giant gap of ancestors?
    Humans didn't evolve from monkeys, if that's where you're going.
    About your ancestors: they're all either dead, or fully evolved into the organisms you see today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    i'm too lazy!
    I agree. You're also too lazy to actually study evolution.

    Why is this not in the "trash" or "religion" section?

    Edit: Just noticed you're new. Welcome to the forum! Nvm that "too lazy" insult. I just get real upset when people ignorant of evolution say crap like "I didn't come from no monkey".
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Tony John C, could you clarify if you believe in evolution or creationism?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    Tony John C, could you clarify if you believe in evolution or creationism?

    well sorry for my slightly sacastic opening. Ok I will elaborate my position. I do not believe that a higher being snapped its fingers and there I was, yet i find it hard to believe that I evolved from a monkey and yet there are no living species from the primate to human phase. Sure we have a few fossils, with as many thousands of years, it would be easy to have some anomilies, why are there no living species in the middle between human (advanced) and primates (primitive). One would reason that there should be some alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    apparently you are the one human specimen that cannot do the math.
    Obviously spuriousmonkey you do not understand the concept of a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Maybe it is too much to ask for.
    Has anyone ever told you that you are a patronizing ass? By the way, you are adopted and your parents don't love you.

    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    the chance bones are fossilised is rare under optimal conditions.

    Calculate the odds that all intermediate forms are fossilized.
    Still not a good reason, give me something more, before I give you the dunce cap and make you sit in the corner for everyone to laugh at.

    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Should? Why should we? Evolution doesn't follow human rules. Monkeys do not have the cerebral capacity for the abstract reasoning required to do complex math. Though they can order numerosities, aka, count.
    Yes counting, and and complex math as you said yourself are very different. Yet why the gap if we do in fact evolve from primates? When do they gain the ability to use abstract reasoning?

    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Humans didn't evolve from monkeys, if that's where you're going.
    About your ancestors: they're all either dead, or fully evolved into the organisms you see today.
    Would it not be reasonable to assume that some of the "gap generations" would have living desendents? Why are the least primitive, and the most evolved the only ones that survived?

    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Edit: Just noticed you're new. Welcome to the forum! Nvm that "too lazy" insult. I just get real upset when people ignorant of evolution say crap like "I didn't come from no monkey".
    My first response is to say "No I came from lizards *cough* mario movie *cough*" But I shall try to supress the urge. Now I was being a bit sarcastic, but there is such a thing as healthy skeptisism. If I wanted blind belief I would go join a catholic church :/

    I am very willing to learn, and I am going to read extensivley on it now.

    And dejawolf thank you for being the only one not being excessively patronizing. Your post was good.
    Why is hate so ingrained in humans? For the supposed enlightened species we are very limited to such primitive behaviors. Peace is a fleeting in our society.
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    well sorry for my slightly sacastic opening. Ok I will elaborate my position. I do not believe that a higher being snapped its fingers and there I was, yet i find it hard to believe that I evolved from a monkey and yet there are no living species from the primate to human phase. Sure we have a few fossils, with as many thousands of years, it would be easy to have some anomilies, why are there no living species in the middle between human (advanced) and primates (primitive). One would reason that there should be some alive.
    As many million years not thousand years!
    The argument for intermediates is always misunderstood; I used to ask myself the same thing.
    Firstly: Why would you say the intermediates between chimpanzee and human, why not gorilla and human (in which case the chimpanzees are the intermediates)
    Secondly: The intermediates do not exist today as by natural selection, the more progressive (arguably "advanced") primates survived whereas the ones with the older characteristics which were less advantageous died out. There are examples of species where all of he intermediates do still exist; they are very interesting cases.
    Thirdly: The fossils can be dated exactly and so clearly show the gradual evolution from ape to what we are today, this is further backed up by genetic information which shows that we are enormously similar with chimps (about of our genome although this may vary).
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    Tony John C, could you clarify if you believe in evolution or creationism?

    well sorry for my slightly sacastic opening. Ok I will elaborate my position. I do not believe that a higher being snapped its fingers and there I was, yet i find it hard to believe that I evolved from a monkey and yet there are no living species from the primate to human phase. Sure we have a few fossils, with as many thousands of years, it would be easy to have some anomilies, why are there no living species in the middle between human (advanced) and primates (primitive). One would reason that there should be some alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    apparently you are the one human specimen that cannot do the math.
    Obviously spuriousmonkey you do not understand the concept of a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Maybe it is too much to ask for.
    Has anyone ever told you that you are a patronizing ass? By the way, you are adopted and your parents don't love you.

    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    the chance bones are fossilised is rare under optimal conditions.

    Calculate the odds that all intermediate forms are fossilized.
    Still not a good reason, give me something more, before I give you the dunce cap and make you sit in the corner for everyone to laugh at.

    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Should? Why should we? Evolution doesn't follow human rules. Monkeys do not have the cerebral capacity for the abstract reasoning required to do complex math. Though they can order numerosities, aka, count.
    Yes counting, and and complex math as you said yourself are very different. Yet why the gap if we do in fact evolve from primates? When do they gain the ability to use abstract reasoning?

    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Humans didn't evolve from monkeys, if that's where you're going.
    About your ancestors: they're all either dead, or fully evolved into the organisms you see today.
    Would it not be reasonable to assume that some of the "gap generations" would have living desendents? Why are the least primitive, and the most evolved the only ones that survived?

    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Edit: Just noticed you're new. Welcome to the forum! Nvm that "too lazy" insult. I just get real upset when people ignorant of evolution say crap like "I didn't come from no monkey".
    My first response is to say "No I came from lizards *cough* mario movie *cough*" But I shall try to supress the urge. Now I was being a bit sarcastic, but there is such a thing as healthy skeptisism. If I wanted blind belief I would go join a catholic church :/

    I am very willing to learn, and I am going to read extensivley on it now.

    And dejawolf thank you for being the only one not being excessively patronizing. Your post was good.
    So, just an ordinary troll.
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    I wouldn't say he's a troll.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    I'm not at all convinced that the opening premise is correct.

    There may well be other primates who can do maths. There is a well known study in which a group of apes bargain for a particular food, I don't recall details, but somehow they calculate how many grapes, or soome such thing, a banana is worth. You might look into that research.

    Also, keep in mind that a simple genetic change can lead to a radically different phenotype. A single mutation like the one that causes Cri du Chat can lead to dramatic losses in speech and cognition. Similarly, perhaps there was one or a few simple mutations that facilitated speech, memory, and abstract thought in a way that allowed us to master calculus. I doubt many humans would come up with it on their own, after all, yet living in a structured society that emphasizes education we manage to beat such things into a few of our our offspring.
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    Keep in mind how long it took for us to understand calculus, first there were the greeks introducing much of our foundations of maths then we had Descartes introducing coordinate geometry and then eventually we developed calculus, it was not a single discovery step. Similarly, we had the ability to write and communicate our thoughts and ideas by speech, primates cannot to the same degree. So if a primate did come up with calculus, it probably cannot explain it to another.

    Maybe primates do have an inbuilt concept of basic for arithmetic as you said for bargaining food, this would make evolutionary sense, the smarter chimp would get more from the bargain and increase its chances of survival.

    Similarly perhaps they do have an inbuilt sense of calculus which they may use for movement or coordination, but it would not be a conscious, thought out expression of its definition or derivation. How do you expect you would be able to observe their understanding of it if they cannot write? Keep in mind we are not born with an intuitive understanding of calculus, its something we are taught and which still many people do not understand.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    So, just an ordinary troll.

    So, just an extraordinary ass.
    Why is hate so ingrained in humans? For the supposed enlightened species we are very limited to such primitive behaviors. Peace is a fleeting in our society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    So, just an ordinary troll.

    So, just an extraordinary ass.
    That's trolling...
    Where are the mods? Why's this thread still under "Biology"?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    So, just an ordinary troll.

    So, just an extraordinary ass.
    That's trolling...
    Where are the mods? Why's this thread still under "Biology"?
    Uhh because this is the section for evolution discussion if you would look.

    Well I would have no call to say someone is an ass, if they didn't come in here with totally useless posts, which I find rude.
    Why is hate so ingrained in humans? For the supposed enlightened species we are very limited to such primitive behaviors. Peace is a fleeting in our society.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    well sorry for my slightly sacastic opening. Ok I will elaborate my position. I do not believe that a higher being snapped its fingers and there I was, yet i find it hard to believe that I evolved from a monkey and yet there are no living species from the primate to human phase. Sure we have a few fossils, with as many thousands of years, it would be easy to have some anomilies, why are there no living species in the middle between human (advanced) and primates (primitive). One would reason that there should be some alive.
    Well, one good reason why there wouldn't be any direct ancestors of ours alive is that they effectively went extinct once they all evolved into homo sapiens. If you're looking for off-shoots from our direct line, our evolutionary cousins, so to speak - well, that's the chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, etc. There were the neanderthals that were very recently (evolutionarily speaking) alive with us, but by either interbreeding or competition, we wiped them out. That's probably how it went with most of our more recent cousins - being more closely related to us, they probably shared similar ecological niches, and we competed with them for resources - and eventually out-competed them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    the chance bones are fossilised is rare under optimal conditions.

    Calculate the odds that all intermediate forms are fossilized.
    Still not a good reason, give me something more, before I give you the dunce cap and make you sit in the corner for everyone to laugh at.
    The odds that any one individual animal will become a fossil that is subsequently found by us is very small. First of all they need to have a physiology that will end itself to fossilization - having hard bony parts of some kind. They then have to die in the right place, with the right climate, and not be torn apart and eaten, or have their bones scattered by some other force. Their skeleton then has to maintain its form over thousands of years and not be ripped apart by rock and sediment movement underneath the earth's surface. They then have to rise back to the surface in such a place and time where they can be found by people before erosion grinds them to dust. The fossil record is really a very small sample of all life that ever existed on this planet, and it will only naturally be filled with gaps.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    I do not believe that a higher being snapped its fingers and there I was, yet i find it hard to believe that I evolved from a monkey .....
    1) You didn't evolve from a monkey.
    2) The fact that you find it difficult to believe is a reflection on the weakness of your knowledge or your mental aptitude, not a reflection on the validity of the theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    yet there are no living species from the primate to human phase.
    The very limited possibilities for fossilisation of our ancestors, coupled with the even gretaer difficulty of searching for those remains has been pointed out. Despite this we have many inermediate forms between our common ancestor with the other great apes and ourselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    One would reason that there should be some alive.
    Using such an argument would not involve reason. One should reason that there is very unlikely to be any intermediate forms still alive. That is the nature of evolution. Your slightly weird perceptions of the character of evolution suggest you have not read much about it.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Has anyone ever told you that you are a patronizing ass? By the way, you are adopted and your parents don't love you.
    You might wish to consider that Spurious is one of the most respected members of this forum. He is one of the few posters who is is working as a research scientist. He is also, quite likely a patronising ass, but that has nothing to do with the accuracy of his posts.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    the chance bones are fossilised is rare under optimal conditions.
    Calculate the odds that all intermediate forms are fossilized.
    Still not a good reason, give me something more, before I give you the dunce cap and make you sit in the corner for everyone to laugh at.
    Tony, you are awarding yourself th edunce cap here I am afraid. The difficulties of fossilisation and subsequent discovery are wholly adequate as explanations for the paucity of the hominid fossill record.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Yes counting, and and complex math as you said yourself are very different. Yet why the gap if we do in fact evolve from primates? When do they gain the ability to use abstract reasoning?
    The gap exists because we found it advantageous in our environmental niche to evolve these skills. The other primates did not. Unless there environment changes in certain ways there is no reason they should.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Why are the least primitive, and the most evolved the only ones that survived?
    Now you have me quite confused. I believe I recall correctly that chimpanzees are more evolved than man. Aha, you are under the impression that evolved is equivalent to more advanced. It isn't. It relates to the amount of change between the ancestral and the current organisms. And as to who survived - well Darwin said it first and best - the fittest.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    I am very willing to learn, and I am going to read extensivley on it now.
    This is hugely encouraging. There is much excellent material on the web, but I recommend getting Richard Dawkins' The Ancestor's Tale.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    I do not believe that a higher being snapped its fingers and there I was, yet i find it hard to believe that I evolved from a monkey .....
    1) You didn't evolve from a monkey.
    2) The fact that you find it difficult to believe is a reflection on the weakness of your knowledge or your mental aptitude, not a reflection on the validity of the theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    yet there are no living species from the primate to human phase.
    The very limited possibilities for fossilisation of our ancestors, coupled with the even gretaer difficulty of searching for those remains has been pointed out. Despite this we have many inermediate forms between our common ancestor with the other great apes and ourselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    One would reason that there should be some alive.
    Using such an argument would not involve reason. One should reason that there is very unlikely to be any intermediate forms still alive. That is the nature of evolution. Your slightly weird perceptions of the character of evolution suggest you have not read much about it.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Has anyone ever told you that you are a patronizing ass? By the way, you are adopted and your parents don't love you.
    You might wish to consider that Spurious is one of the most respected members of this forum. He is one of the few posters who is is working as a research scientist. He is also, quite likely a patronising ass, but that has nothing to do with the accuracy of his posts.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    the chance bones are fossilised is rare under optimal conditions.
    Calculate the odds that all intermediate forms are fossilized.
    Still not a good reason, give me something more, before I give you the dunce cap and make you sit in the corner for everyone to laugh at.
    Tony, you are awarding yourself th edunce cap here I am afraid. The difficulties of fossilisation and subsequent discovery are wholly adequate as explanations for the paucity of the hominid fossill record.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Yes counting, and and complex math as you said yourself are very different. Yet why the gap if we do in fact evolve from primates? When do they gain the ability to use abstract reasoning?
    The gap exists because we found it advantageous in our environmental niche to evolve these skills. The other primates did not. Unless there environment changes in certain ways there is no reason they should.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    Why are the least primitive, and the most evolved the only ones that survived?
    Now you have me quite confused. I believe I recall correctly that chimpanzees are more evolved than man. Aha, you are under the impression that evolved is equivalent to more advanced. It isn't. It relates to the amount of change between the ancestral and the current organisms. And as to who survived - well Darwin said it first and best - the fittest.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    I am very willing to learn, and I am going to read extensivley on it now.
    This is hugely encouraging. There is much excellent material on the web, but I recommend getting Richard Dawkins' The Ancestor's Tale.

    OK will try to be nicer and produce clearer more researched questions. Your a very humbling person. I still do not like spurious' demeanor, though I will still take a closer look at his posts.
    Why is hate so ingrained in humans? For the supposed enlightened species we are very limited to such primitive behaviors. Peace is a fleeting in our society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony John C
    OK will try to be nicer and produce clearer more researched questions. Your a very humbling person. I still do not like spurious' demeanor, though I will still take a closer look at his posts.
    I have learned a great deal from Sourious here and on other forums. I do not always agree with everything he says and not always wih the way that he says it, but his intentions are impeccable and his knowledge is sound.
    I do not intend to be humbling. (I'd actually like to be humble, but I'm really crap at that. ) Your initial posts came across as the work of a blinkered creationist. My apologies for that incorrect assessment. I really do encourage you to get The Ancestor's Tale I mentioned earlier. Generally I abhor anything by Dawkins, but he redeemed himself in my eyes with this particular work.
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    Indeed, I recently read the ancestor's tale and it was one of the better popular science books I have read in a long time. And unfortunately I cannot say the same thing about his other works.

    Since we both agree the chances that there is a kernel of truth in what we are saying has increased slightly, although of course it is not proven.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Since we both agree the chances that there is a kernel of truth in what we are saying has increased slightly, although of course it is not proven.
    But a thousand curses may rain upon the head of anyone foolish enough to now disagree with us.
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  24. #23  
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    and eternal shame!
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