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Thread: Difference!!

  1. #1 Difference!! 
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    Can anyone explain why there is a big difference between most advanced creature on earth and second most advanced creature on earth??


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    yes, i've wondered the same : why is an elephant's trunk so much longer than that of a tapir ?


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  4. #3 hehe 
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    hehe funny isnt it!!!
    I was not referring to that kind of a thing. i was referring to the fact that, even though human and chimp DNA is 98% identical, why there is a great difference in cognition.

    So you would say it is due to a beneficial mutation of a gene related to brain development.

    But still why hasn't any specie between human and Chimp (in the evolutionary tree) not survived leaving a big gap ("the big difference" which i mentioned in the first post).

    I'm so sorry if it was a stupid question. I might not be educated enough to understand that it's a really stupid question, that why i asked.

    anyway thanx for reply :?
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  5. #4  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    i was just pointing out that the definition of the word "advanced" needs to be qualified - advanced in respect of what ?
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    I'm no authority on this, but I would guess that during human evolution, we out competed any other species that might have been of comparable intelligence to us - such as the Neanderthals (out competed or bred with - either way, they're gone). Also, I don't think chimps are that far behind us in cognition. They're comparable to human children, and carry out very complex social interactions - compared with most other organisms, at least.
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  7. #6 ya true 
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    ya i think you are right. Some people belive that Neanderthal genes are still with us. :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    I'm no authority on this, but I would guess that during human evolution, we out competed any other species that might have been of comparable intelligence to us - .
    You may well be over rating intelligence. Advanced has no meaning that I can discern in terms of biology, or evolution. We might talk about complexity, but in doing so we need to recognise that 'more complex' does not equate with 'better'.
    At any rate, rats and cockroaches are pretty damn successful. Now there is a term that we can quantify.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Rats are basically just as complex as we are. Personally I am a tooth guy and I am not looking at brains.

    On the topic of teeth, the teeth of rats are much complexer than human teeth.

    Our teeth are pretty much basic stuff. Low-crowned teeth with long roots. The archetype of a tooth. Pretty much the ancestral bauplan of a mammalian tooth.

    Rats on the other side have evolutionary innovations teeth wise. They have the continuously growing incisors with a labial (towards the lip) crown analogue covered by enamel, and the lingual (towards the tongue) root analogue covered by softer dentin/cementum. The root analogue wears down faster making it possible for the incisors to sharpen themselves by grinding the upper incisors against the lower incisors. A brilliant evolutionary innovation that made the rodents one of the most successful mammalian groups! Humans can't even come near that kind of success with just one species.

    And then there is the diastema region between the incisors and the molars that lacks the premolars. It is also a evolutionary adaptation that can be seen in other species groups too which facilitates specialization of front and back teeth.

    Honestly, compared to rats our teeth suck.

    And this shows how the limited view of most people leads them to think we are special.

    ALL SPECIES ARE SPECIAL!

    And all current species (meaning all individuals) are evolutionary winners. They have survived the rat race for hundreds of millions of years. And those that fail to reproduce for the next generation or at least do not have a positive effect on the reproduction of their genotype into the next generation are losers. The rest are ALL winners again.

    On another note on the equality of complexity.

    All mammalians are equally complex. They consist of exactly the same cell types. Which make up the same of similar tissues.



    Is a mammal more complex than a grasshopper?

    A rat is bigger of course. But an elephant is also bigger than a rat. An elephant is also bigger than a human. Are the teeth of elephants more complex than those of humans? Well, they are because the cusp shape is much more complex and they have a modified system of tooth replacement where ours is pretty much standard. besides that the tooth of an elephant just has more cells.

    I can still remember seeing a presentation on recombinations between mouse and rat tissue. It was the mesenchyme that defined the size of the tooth (if I remember correctly, otherwise it was the epithelium). So if you put rat epithelium with mouse mesenchyme you will end up with mouse sized tooth with the cusp pattern of a rat. If you put mouse epithelium with rat mesenchyme you will end up with a rat sized tooth with mouse cusps.

    An elephant's tooth just has more cells which makes it bigger. It is not more complex from this perspective.

    A grasshopper is still a complex animal. It has similar cells as we have (some differences), and everything consists of less cells. Some structures are unique and very complex though.

    Is a grasshopper more complex then us because it can fly? Is a human more complex because it can sustain cultural evolution.

    Ophiolite of course, said everything already, but then shorter. I still haven't discovered the merits of concise posts.
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  10. #9  
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    And this shows how the limited view of most people leads them to think we are special.
    hi,

    yeah i understand that all mammals are as complex as we are. And also the fact that all species living today are as successful as we are.

    But wouldn't the dominance play a role in deciding how advance you are
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  11. #10 sorry 
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    yeah i understand that all mammals are as complex as we are
    sorry, not "as complex".

    but as complex , more complex or less complex depending on the perticular feature that we look into.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulasthi
    And this shows how the limited view of most people leads them to think we are special.
    hi,

    yeah i understand that all mammals are as complex as we are. And also the fact that all species living today are as successful as we are.

    But wouldn't the dominance play a role in deciding how advance you are

    Domination is not a measure of being advanced. It can easily be a measure of being on the way to extinction.
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  13. #12 Re: sorry 
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulasthi
    but as complex , more complex or less complex depending on the perticular feature that we look into.
    imo the dominant life form on earth are the bacteria - i'm not sure about complexity, but they can handle far more extreme conditions than we can and their metabolic capabilities are out of this world
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  14. #13 yeah thts damn true!! 
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    Domination is not a measure of being advanced. It can easily be a measure of being on the way to extinction.
    yeah it's damn true. you are absolutely right. i resign. :-D
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Honestly, compared to rats our teeth suck.
    .
    I thought that was what our gums were for. 8)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    I'm no authority on this, but I would guess that during human evolution, we out competed any other species that might have been of comparable intelligence to us - .
    You may well be over rating intelligence. Advanced has no meaning that I can discern in terms of biology, or evolution. We might talk about complexity, but in doing so we need to recognise that 'more complex' does not equate with 'better'.
    At any rate, rats and cockroaches are pretty damn successful. Now there is a term that we can quantify.
    haha, there was a whole thread talking about this subject in another forum I visit. I understand that using the words advanced, smarter, and/or better, is a highly subjective thing. When I say comparable, I do mean it - comparable in the type of intelligence, not just the "level." Most humans point towards socially complex animals as being "more intelligent" - primates, elephants, dolphins, etc. I think that's because we ourselves are highly social animals, and can easily identify the kinds of specialized intelligences that are adapted for the social environment. Now, are our brains specialized to sensitively and accurately interpret smells, or to delicately control 8 appendages? No. In that sense, we are less "advanced."
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  17. #16  
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    Yes and there are some universally less complex mammals, eg mouse compared to human, however all mammals are equally highly evolved, these are just two phrases often mistaken.
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  18. #17  
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    I just showed that the rodents have complexer teeth than humans.
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    i think the words advanced and complex should be banned when comparing species
    horrible words though they are, the cladistic terms 'apomorphic' and 'plesiomorphic' are more appropriate
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  20. #19  
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    I agree!
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  21. #20  
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    complex may stay in my opinion. Some things are just complexer.

    'Advanced' is more of a value. Some people think complex is advanced.

    or something like that.
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  22. #21  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Some people think complex is advanced.
    that makes roman numerals more advanced than arab ones - it's definitely a lot harder to perform calculations with the former
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  23. #22  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    The pocket calculator can calculate faster then the human brain, hence it is more advanced. And also it is less complex then the human brain.

    Analogies quickly become pointless in discussing life. As shown above.
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  24. #23  
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    Complexity is not only an acceptable variable to consider when comparing living things, it is an essential variable for a comprehensive comparison. One of the central aspects of evolution has been a tendency for the most complex organisms at any one time to be more complex than the most complex organisms at an earlier time. i.e. maximum complexity tends to increase.

    Advanced, as Spidergoat said, involves a value judgement and so has no place in biology.

    More/less evolved definitely has a place, since it can refer to the number of allele changes in two or more species, compared to a common ancestor. However, more evolved definitely does not equate to more advanced.
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  25. #24  
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    I could now be anal and point out that we are equally evolved since we all share a common ancestor.

    Someone else who is also anal could then point out to me that the organisms with fastest reproductive rates on average since the arrival of life are more evolved than, let's say, slow reproducing monkeys or apes, or humans.

    It's one of those things you can look at from many perspectives and this makes it actually quite interesting. Some perspectives are more informative than others. The perspective of 'advanced' says mostly something about the nature of the human brain, and not evolution itself. :wink:
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    I could now be anal and point out that we are equally evolved since we all share a common ancestor.

    Someone else who is also anal could then point out.........
    And then someone could point out that coelentrata don't have anuses and so must be less evolved. 8)
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    And then someone could point out that coelentrata don't have anuses and so must be less evolved. 8)
    at least they're not anal about it ...
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    I'm no authority on this, but I would guess that during human evolution, we out competed any other species that might have been of comparable intelligence to us - .
    You may well be over rating intelligence. Advanced has no meaning that I can discern in terms of biology, or evolution. We might talk about complexity, but in doing so we need to recognise that 'more complex' does not equate with 'better'.
    At any rate, rats and cockroaches are pretty damn successful. Now there is a term that we can quantify.
    haha, there was a whole thread talking about this subject in another forum I visit. I understand that using the words advanced, smarter, and/or better, is a highly subjective thing. When I say comparable, I do mean it - comparable in the type of intelligence, not just the "level." Most humans point towards socially complex animals as being "more intelligent" - primates, elephants, dolphins, etc. I think that's because we ourselves are highly social animals, and can easily identify the kinds of specialized intelligences that are adapted for the social environment. Now, are our brains specialized to sensitively and accurately interpret smells, or to delicately control 8 appendages? No. In that sense, we are less "advanced."
    Most humans for better or worse are highly self involved and unable or unwilling to even contemplate that we are not the greatest of the great life forms. This however does not make it so. With regards social creatures being considered more intelligent, I agree that most people think this to some extent, but what about ants and bees? Very socially specialised but generally considered pretty dumb by most humans I would think. Also, what exactly is a creature? Just an animal? Or are protists creatures too? How about a slime mold? They are communal :P. I'm not having a go at you in saying any of this, but rather at people in general. I agree that people do indeed relate to social beings, but only the ones that are cute or nice looking. The same way that most people are against animal cruelty, as long as the animal is cute and fluffy. Setting off roach bombs is perfectly ok.
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