Thread: Intelligent animals?

Ive noticed that some animals act in a very inteliigent way.....
FOr example theres this bird around were i live (black capped chickadee) that honestly i think is smarter then some humans.

Ive noticed for example that they keep singing to each other in 2 sharp notes. A high and low, and ive noticed for example that a pair of them would whistle to each other to let each other know were they are. Like ive seen two land together at a tree next to me, one would hop from tree to tree from the other one. The whole time there whistling to each other, even out of sight. But when i stop hearing the whistling from the one drifting away the other one always darts in that direction immediatly, always..

In most cases im smoking canadien cigarretes and if there around me and i light my lighter for example the one drifting away sings quick sharp whistles to the other. The other would stop breaking seeds, hop on the branch above and scan the area in a 360 degree fashion. Whistle back and then go back to work......

And ive also noticed that the birds have different whistles for a dog, cat or human passing by........

Another example is the deer around were i live. Most of the time deer if they see you and there is a alot of distance between you and them will just ignore you. But if you are a game warden or look at all like a game warden, when they see you there gone no matter how far away they are.... And that is the same for the game warden vehicle compared to a regular vehicle...

Are animals much smarter then we give them credit for? like i mean they learn and adapt the same as we do, could they in some respects be smarter then us?? DoAnd even though they cant fashion tools ALOT of animals show they are more organized than alot of humans who say there smart 8)

thanks, peace

I think humans are rather conceited some would outright say animals are not intelligent. Clearly as animals communicate with their own species they do have a language, alarm calls, mating calls, territorial disputes etc etc. I just did a quick google on "black capped chickadee intelligent" and found a number of articles that would agree with you.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

I think humans are rather conceited some would outright say animals are not intelligent. Clearly as animals communicate with their own species they do have a language, alarm calls, mating calls, territorial disputes etc etc. I just did a quick google on "black capped chickadee intelligent" and found a number of articles that would agree with you.

-there very smart birds
-also too in the summer i can walk in a very dense coniferous forest and if the day is nice enough, there is nothing but bird chatter. you can sit down and watch them chase each other, move together, or just sit side by side each other and chatter. And they always almost reply back to eachother.

-I fully believe that birds most of them are very aware of the other organisms around them the same as humans. They have a very structured society and are very organised. They may not write papers or formulas but they sure as hell have there shit straighter then most humans

I couldn't agree more, It's nice to see somebody else who appreciates nature and some of it's many wonders. Have you thought of recording your observations?

african maccaw can learn to distinguish shape, color ,size, placement, location amng others and apply it to practical exercises, such as responding to a command to "bring the 'big' 'blue' 'circle' , and accomplishing this from a small selection of objects of similar characteristics.

some serious marine biologists even suspect dolphins may have a much richer language than we can currently understand (heresay)

chimps have been filmed while engaged in clearly cooperative ambushes and while hunting with spears (they don't sharpen them though, just use it to poke) the spaer ting is pretty recent so perhaps we are living the history of POTA.

Yeah, I've always thought as animals as having intelligence beyond what society may recognise, people like to think there is a great difference between us and any other species. I prefer to think of it along a gradient, we may be the most intelligent having developed the ability to question our existence our origins etc, but many animals do have a great ability to communicate, solve problems and all that was mentioned above.

I wouldnt agree that these birds are more organised than we are necessarily but their lives are somewhat simpler than ours so it may be easier to be organised communally than it would be for us.

This is defenitely a topic worth studying. My mother is one who has no respect for an animal's individuality. In other words, she is blind to the fact that other creatures may also be conscious, and experiencing life from a firstperson perspective. This causes her to treat animals like her toys. I cannot stand this for one moment.

I am one who firmly believes in other creatures, and not just us humans, having some form of consciousness, at least. Of course, I believe in evolution also, due to evidence and it's practicality. Which is what ultimately leads me to this conclusion. If evolution is the big game player of life, then it is not hard to believe that consciousness has evolved in several creatures, from a single origin or from multiple chances.

This consciousness tells me that other animals can have differing degrees of intelligence, relative to humans. But, they lack the physical form that humans have. Therefore, the concieded do not judge them to be intelligent, due to the fact that they cannot communicate the same as we do, nor produce the same results we do. The religous simply have been taught otherwise.

But, in the end, as you have pointed out Johnny, and others as well, the fruits of intelligence are evident. And if intelligence, why not also consciousness? If consiousness, why not also intelligence? If only our species could get over their self-perception of their 'godliness'! Then, maybe their eyes would be opened to a world of true wonder.

why not also consciousness?

^---- i thought that was consequences

that reminds me of rabbits . when i was a teenager i spent summers at my camp and i kinda taught myself to track

-now were i live we have a alot of rabbits in the bushes by my place. Rabbits i find like to travel the same routes (paths) throughtout the bush, and its usually not hard to find them once you know were these paths are. A few years ago i used a head of lettuce, box, and string and wait for a rabbit. I had to wait for like 2 hours once but i got me one . I let him go though. As an example of something the rabbits do that doesnt work out.

-i believe ours lives are simpler then an animals life. FOr example school fish stick together to give the illusion of being a larger fish, to avoid gettin eaten. And birds need to communicate effectively to avoid larger birds (hawks)

^---- i thought that was consequences

I am not sure if that was intended as a pun. If so...I don't get it...hehe.

Originally Posted by Nanobrain

^---- i thought that was consequences

I am not sure if that was intended as a pun. If so...I don't get it...hehe.

no i misread what you wrote and wrote from there

The question of human and animal intelligence has always been fascinating also because of a puzzling and (I think) not quite resolved counter-question: What is intelligence, anyway?

Everyone seems to have his/her own opinion on that, and it seems to me that, historically, people have tried to shape their definitions into forms that highlights their strengths and ignores their weaknesses compared to animals.

Sometimes it's annoying how terms like "smart" and "intelligence" are thrown around without clear definition. For example, is a computer with a hard disk stuffed with information from several encyclopedias and equipped with the ability to regurgitate that information a smart or intelligent being? If not, then why do we call quiz-show contenders, whose talent is to regurgitate memorized information, "smart" or "intelligent"?

Here's an 'off the shelf' definition of intelligence:

'ability to think and learn: the ability to learn facts and skills and apply them, especially when this ability is highly developed'
Microsoft® Encarta® 2006

That rules out any current computer. I also think it includes a lot of species other than homo sapiens sapiens.

Originally Posted by redewenur

Here's an 'off the shelf' definition of intelligence:

'ability to think and learn: the ability to learn facts and skills and apply them, especially when this ability is highly developed'
Microsoft® Encarta® 2006

That rules out any current computer. I also think it includes a lot of species other than homo sapiens sapiens.

there are robots which can learn, they are computers.

I can give a first hand account of an animal acting in a very intelligent way (Or at least outwitting me).

I have a two year old boxer dog. Whenever he whats to be let outside, he jumps up onto his back legs and uses his front two paws to punch the back door, this makes a loud-ish bang which is the signal for me to let him out. Now, over the last couple of weeks he has been using this to sit on MY couch. First i hear the bang, so go into the kitchen to let him out, just as im walking into the room he runs past me and jumps onto the couch. So getting wise to his little game i chose to ignore him, bang ........ bang...... then he comes running into the lounge whineing still i ignore him, bang....... bang....... then quiet, he comes walking back into the lounge and falls asleep on the floor. Later i go to make a cup of tea and step in a puddle.
So we now have an new understanding, i either let him sit on the couch or he pisses on the floor. I think that is blackmail .

Carry it further, put something on the chair as you get up, or close the door as you go into the kitchen.... Then watch him rip your pad to shreds!

Ah...... Thank you fellow human being for your tips on how i could win this battle of minds.

Sad isn't it, takes a forum full of people to outwit a mutt!

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Sad isn't it, takes a forum full of people to outwit a mutt!

But the mutt has an advantage - it is not constrained to think like a "forum full of people"

Just because animals are not from our same race that doest make them unintelligent they were born with different traits than us and they have different DNA they are not nessesarily or need to be the same as us they have created they're own ways of surviving and thats what makes them inteligent. Hey and Megabrain we come from animals.

I remember watching a wild life program by Attenbrough, and it was to study how animals interact or have learnt to use technology to their advantage.

One that i found very interesting was a certain species of bird would land on telephone wires at a crossing in the street and drop the hard nuts on the crossing and wait for cars to drive over them to break open the nut.

I've just googled it and found it here..

http://www.pbs.org/lifeofbirds/brain/


Edit: here's the video i saw of the bird actually cracking the nut's...amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G6StbZzRxA

Did you know blackbirds in an English-speaking country can't understand blackbirds in, say, France?

Originally Posted by river_rat

But the mutt has an advantage - it is not constrained to think like a "forum full of people"

I should really take great offence to that comment.

-------

Heres a link to short newspaper article about a dog who wasn't quite smart enough.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1690550.ece

Originally Posted by johnny

Originally Posted by Megabrain

I think humans are rather conceited some would outright say animals are not intelligent. Clearly as animals communicate with their own species they do have a language, alarm calls, mating calls, territorial disputes etc etc. I just did a quick google on "black capped chickadee intelligent" and found a number of articles that would agree with you.

-there very smart birds
-also too in the summer i can walk in a very dense coniferous forest and if the day is nice enough, there is nothing but bird chatter. you can sit down and watch them chase each other, move together, or just sit side by side each other and chatter. And they always almost reply back to eachother.

-I fully believe that birds most of them are very aware of the other organisms around them the same as humans. They have a very structured society and are very organised. They may not write papers or formulas but they sure as hell have there shit straighter then most humans

I disagree with this. I've found that people are more likely to anthropomorphize animals than to discredit their abilities. ("My cat is SO smart! Smarter than most people!") Hogwash.
What are simply evolved behaviors are often seen as "intelligence" to humans when the animal is doing nothing more than what they've evolved to.

Well, in this case. Humans would also be doing no more than what they have evolved to do. Right?

No. Humans are not governed primarily by instinct, we are capable of rational thought, problem solving, and so on. Take your birds and subject them to some simple problem solving tests and not only will they fail, they won't even realize they're being tested.
Evolution has created some absolutely amazing animals who do some absolutely amazing things - but don't confuse evolved, instictive behavior with intelligent choices.

Tis' true. Good points. :wink:

Originally Posted by Neutrino

No. Humans are not governed primarily by instinct, we are capable of rational thought, problem solving, and so on. Take your birds and subject them to some simple problem solving tests and not only will they fail, they won't even realize they're being tested.
Evolution has created some absolutely amazing animals who do some absolutely amazing things - but don't confuse evolved, instictive behavior with intelligent choices.

Regardless, our capability of rational thoughts is a result of evolution (the gradual development of our brains). We weren't just suddenly rational beings.

A cat's evolved behaviour can still be considered intelligence (at least when compared to less-evolved animals).

Different than my last post and in agreeance with scientstphilosophertheist, I have now put more effort into thinking about this matter.

What is instinct? We still cannot explain this in good definition. Even, if it exist. So, what is the fine line between instinct and intelligence? With this in mind, we cannot say that animals other than us act purely on instinct.

didnt they teach some apes sign language? i saw that on tv once.
even the human language isnt pure verbal. eye contact and body language play huge rolls, and we still get the occasional "what you say isnt what they hear" problems, our language isnt perfect. animals understand some types of body language too. if animals have individual intelligence and personalities isnt it kind of sad we just consider them mere livestock? and do cruel testing on them because were not smart enough to find an alternative?
i mean if you kick a dog it will squeel, you can tell if an animal has affection for you or not, they breath the same air, they live, they dream, they have desires, maybe some people just arent ready to veiw animals that are actually alive and living with souls?

Now what about trees? Do they have instincts? They grow high to have an advantage over their competition for the sun's rays. Does a Venus Fly Trap have instincts? Is it smart? It waits until a fly lands in its "mouth" and then snaps itself shut. That's patience.

Trees can actually smell pheromones which other trees secrete in response to danger and are able to produce some sort of a response appartently but Im not too sure exactly what.

Also banana trees can walk.

A tad irrelevant but take a look at the lyre bird:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMtbXrhLS5o
When I saw this I was quite simply amazed but also slightly sad as in a way it is singing it's own destruction...

To point.
I would argue that animals most certainly have intelligence beyond instinct. I think a reasonable def. for instinct would be a behaviour that is displayed that is necessary for the survival of the animal. Keeping that in mind follow the example of my cat:
We have to keep the cat in over night as otherwise he tends to get into fights with the other cats. However, he is not particularly keen on this idea as although he is neutered he still would much rather have freedom and fights! This often involves me chasing him about in the dark with a headtorch. This 'I want to stay outside' thing you could argue is instinct; however, he does actually have a rather annoying tendancy to play with me as he will come trotting up to me quite readily, he will then usually do one of two things:
1) If I bend down to pick him up he will dart off in the last second; if I follow him he will keep on running but if I actually go in the other direction he will often follow me and then repeat the trick again.
2) If I turn round back to the house he will follow by my side quite happily, I'll open the door and go inside fully expecting him to follow me in... instead I see the back-end of a cat disappearing into the distance.

I would argue that the above example is clearly an aspect of intelligence and personality as while the wish to stay outside could be seen as instinct (preservation of territory) the playfulness has no function for survival.

Originally Posted by Robbie

Trees can actually smell pheromones which other trees secrete in response to danger and are able to produce some sort of a response appartently but Im not too sure exactly what.

Also banana trees can walk.

Let me entertain you with some lousy logic. Humans are ever compelled to learn, explore and build more. i.e. we as humans don't know everything and are driven to try and know everything. But how would we behave if we DID know everything? Would and observer discribe our newfound behavior as instinct?

I doubt an individual would ever know everything, eg physicists know nothing about music and historians know nothing about maths!

As for behaviour, wouldnt one then have people's beliefs/morals/ethics what ever you want to call it driving them as opposed to the thirst for knowledge. Would it not be a issue of what you believe over what you know; whats the reason behind thirst for knowledge?



(banana trees can walk, dont laugh! :-D )

Perhaps we should say humans thirst for progress, while other organisms seem to exist in a kind of contentment. As much as I know the prospects of becoming All-knowing is impossible, I can't help thinking we would appear to also operate in a similar fashion to most other organisms, i.e. content, living our lives in a way that is universally cooperative manner, coexisting with the biosphere, seemingly animalistic.

As Dave Singleton said, an instinctual behavior is one that is necessary for survival; a behavior in which you can't be allowed to make a mistake. An example would be a predator instinctually avoiding a very poisonous snake. This isn't a behavior it can take the time to learn, because if it eats one snake one time, it will die. Another example could involve mating - if the male doesn't pay attention to when females are in estrus, he'll never know when the right time to mate is and he'll never have offspring. These are both strong evolutionary forces that caused these behaviors to become ingrained, unchanging instinct.

Instinctual behaviors are best for environments or factors of environments that change very little. For things that change often, however, learning (which is obviously much more flexible than instinct) becomes more important. Many animals will have both learned and instinctive behaviors for those different factors of their environments.

One of the most complex and changeable aspects of an animal's environment is often its social environment. Social interactions also have a high impact in reproductive fitness, as usually higher ranked animals get more matings. Thus it is adaptive to be able to quickly learn about and maneuver in the social environment. Animals with complex social groups and interactions, then, tend to be more intelligent - dogs, birds, dolphins, elephants, primates, etc. Or at the very least, they appear more intelligent to us, because we are an extremely social species, and social intelligence is something we can easily relate to. And once the brain has reached a certain capacity, its functions can then be used for other advancements as well.

An interesting note about consciousness - awareness of the self is often considered a hallmark of the most intelligent animals, and the test for this is usually to see if an animal realizes that it is looking at itself when it looks in a mirror, or if it thinks it's looking at a different individual. From what I know, great apes (naturally), dolphins, and elephants have passed this test. As to its accuracy, I don't know, but it's definitely very interesting. =)