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Thread: recreation of evolution?

  1. #1 recreation of evolution? 
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    The scientific view that complex lifeforms started about 500million years ago evolving from simple lifeforms (bacteria) raises the question with me:
    Why (if so) isn't this evolutianairy jump happening again and again?
    environmental conditions are changed?in what way?
    bacteria now have to compete with complex lifeforms, their quantities being reduced so the "right mixture of bacteria" doesn't occur anymore?
    I witnessed something a long time ago:
    a grass field, fenced by barb wire, used for cow grazing produced A LOT of field mushrooms (agaricus campestris) one saison
    the wow factor:similar grass fields in the neighbourhood didn't produce a single mushroom
    the odd factor:the cows fetched their drinking water from a groundwater well, via a cow operated pump.The well got accidently contaminated with a batch of homemade maturing goatcheese (my mother was experimenting that time with making goat cheese, the well temperature/humidity conditions were tought to be the best available for maturing the cheese, the batch accidently fell into the water)
    it is widely believed that for "a good mushroom saison" you need a lot of moisture (rainfall), unfourtunately the year was 1976, the dryest summer of my life with serious nationwide shortage of drinking water
    mushrooms have an underground network of "roots"Could this rootsystem stretched a complete field (rough estimate:70m x 800m)?
    of coarse I am not suggesting that you need a cow digestive system + goat cheese to build mushrooms (from their involved bacteria)
    but then again... to make the experiment a scientific one (controlled conditions, repeatability) the requirement for a goat, a cow and so on, living in an appartment...not so practical. maybe mixing the right bacteria?
    What do you think, suspecting the digestion of the wrong kind of mushrooms to come up with such an idea?


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  3. #2  
    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    It isn't happening again because there are already viable organisms competing for resources. It is no longer a level playing field, evolution happened, evolved organisms work, there is no niche for "an evolutionary jump,". Most of the rest of your post is frankly nonsense.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    The scientific view that complex lifeforms started about 500million years ago evolving from simple lifeforms (bacteria) raises the question with me:
    Why (if so) isn't this evolutianairy jump happening again and again?
    environmental conditions are changed?in what way?
    bacteria now have to compete with complex lifeforms, their quantities being reduced so the "right mixture of bacteria" doesn't occur anymore?
    I witnessed something a long time ago:
    a grass field, fenced by barb wire, used for cow grazing produced A LOT of field mushrooms (agaricus campestris) one saison
    the wow factor:similar grass fields in the neighbourhood didn't produce a single mushroom
    the odd factor:the cows fetched their drinking water from a groundwater well, via a cow operated pump.The well got accidently contaminated with a batch of homemade maturing goatcheese (my mother was experimenting that time with making goat cheese, the well temperature/humidity conditions were tought to be the best available for maturing the cheese, the batch accidently fell into the water)
    it is widely believed that for "a good mushroom saison" you need a lot of moisture (rainfall), unfourtunately the year was 1976, the dryest summer of my life with serious nationwide shortage of drinking water
    mushrooms have an underground network of "roots"Could this rootsystem stretched a complete field (rough estimate:70m x 800m)?
    of coarse I am not suggesting that you need a cow digestive system + goat cheese to build mushrooms (from their involved bacteria)
    but then again... to make the experiment a scientific one (controlled conditions, repeatability) the requirement for a goat, a cow and so on, living in an appartment...not so practical. maybe mixing the right bacteria?
    What do you think, suspecting the digestion of the wrong kind of mushrooms to come up with such an idea?
    Couple of points:

    - life seems to have started about 3.5bn years. 500m would be the start of the Cambrian period, at which point life had been going for a very long time indeed There was a lot more than just simple bacteria. You can read about the Ediacaran period for example, which came earlier and was already teeming with complex life.

    - the process of abiogenesis was not an "evolutionary jump". Evolution refers to the process by which life adapts to environmental conditions by preferential inheritance of traits that improve reproductive success in that environment. So you need the mechanisms of reproduction and inheritance to be in place before it can operate in this way. Clearly in the very first pre-biotic structures this would not have been present. It is therefore a good idea to separate "abiogenesis" from "evolution" in one's thinking.

    This anecdote of yours about mushrooms and cows seems to be a completely unrelated subject and is, to say the least, not very clearly expressed. I can't comment on it.
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    You are ignoring a lot of increases in complexity prior to 500m years ago--particularly photosynthesis and eukaryotes.


    "Why (if so) isn't this evolutianairy jump happening again and again?"

    It did, with huge examples such as first flowering plants some 150 m years ago, first primates and whiles ~50m which could be argued as dramatic neocortex and intelligence, birds which is a long series of profound evolution to improve flying etc. If anything innovations, particularly at the organ level are increasing.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    It isn't happening again because there are already viable organisms competing for resources. It is no longer a level playing field, evolution happened, evolved organisms work, there is no niche for "an evolutionary jump,". Most of the rest of your post is frankly nonsense.
    thanks for reply,
    I am a bit reluctant to the idea that evolution happened as opposed to is happening
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    I didn't say evolution wasn't still happening, I was trying to explain why it is unlikely there will be another "evolutionary jump" from bacteria to complex organisms.
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  8. #7  
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    There is an article on multicellular organisms here, which advances some hypotheses for how it arose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicellular_organism

    The "jump" seems to be hypothesised to have occurred about 1.5bn years ago, though this article does not say what evidence there may be for this. However, if the recently discovered Gabon fossils are indeed multicellular, that can be pushed back to 2bn years ago: http://www.nature.com/news/2010/1006....2010.323.html

    When you read this article, you can see that it may not have been a dramatic "jump" at all. It may have gone very slowly indeed, over a billion years or so, from aggregates of single cells towards colonies and then finally true multicellular organisms with organs performing specialised functions on behalf of the whole.

    I think we are always in danger of overstating the supposedly dramatic nature of the mis-named "Cambrian Explosion". Firstly it took place over 30-50 million years, the upper end being almost as long as from the end of the dinosaurs to the present. The "Cambrian Radiation" (i.e. spreading out of many forms of life) is a better term. Secondly, it looks dramatic in the fossil record because it was the first time that creatures had hard parts that fossilise easily. However the comparative rarity of earlier fossils may simply be due to earlier creatures having had soft bodies that are only rarely fossilised in a recognisable form.
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  9. #8  
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    duplicate deleted (this is a pain: it is happening constantly).
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  10. #9  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    When you read this article, you can see that it may not have been a dramatic "jump" at all. It may have gone very slowly indeed, over a billion years or so, from aggregates of single cells towards colonies and then finally true multicellular organisms with organs performing specialised functions on behalf of the whole.
    Has this only happened once? I have always wondered if colonies of single celled organisms, such as slime mould, could eventually become true multicellular organisms. (If there is a hard dividing line in the first place.)
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    duplicate deleted (this is a pain: it is happening constantly).
    Never happens to me. Maybe you are using a phone?
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    When you read this article, you can see that it may not have been a dramatic "jump" at all. It may have gone very slowly indeed, over a billion years or so, from aggregates of single cells towards colonies and then finally true multicellular organisms with organs performing specialised functions on behalf of the whole.
    Has this only happened once? I have always wondered if colonies of single celled organisms, such as slime mould, could eventually become true multicellular organisms. (If there is a hard dividing line in the first place.)
    You don't mean "Did different strains life arise independently in different parts of the world ?" do you?

    I half remember there may have been speculation along those lines about life forms in extreme conditions such as underwater vents etc (but am not sure as the question is usually whether these conditions resemble those found on other areas in the Solar System where the hope is that life might be found to exist or have existed in the past)
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    You don't mean "Did different strains life arise independently in different parts of the world ?" do you?
    Not really. I think the commonality of DNA shows that life only arose once (or, if it arose in multiple places, the others were all devoured by the ancestors of current life).

    I was just wondering if multicellularity has occurred more than one. In the same way that wings or eyes have evolved multiple times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post

    Has this only happened once?

    Many times, independently.

    The origin of the eukaryotic cell, on the other hand, is thought to be a one-off event (assuming that other such lineages didn't arise and leave no descendants).
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    duplicate deleted (this is a pain: it is happening constantly).
    Never happens to me. Maybe you are using a phone?
    No, Safari from a Mac. I have the feeling the forum software doesn't like Safari very much. Or maybe my rather old Safari is a bit knackered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    It is therefore a good idea to separate "abiogenesis" from "evolution" in one's thinking.
    the (abandoned) theory that human evolved from an ape species requires the finding of "a missing link"
    however the abandoning of the idea of human superiority makes looking for that missing link a bit ridiculous
    if one is willing to extend the defenition of life so viruses, molecules and atoms becomes forms of life (subsequently the universe becomes a complex form of life itselve)
    then evolution becomes the aplication of intelligence.
    intelligence: the ability of an entity to improve the quality (subjective) and/or the quantity(lifespan/reproductivity) of its existence
    to become a complex organism: the "members" can focus on a dedicated task
    for an atom: the core is specialized in "mass", the electron is specialized in "velocity", it has an extreem high lifespan and an extreem low reproductivity rate
    I hope I didn't pervert the view of biology science to much lol
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  17. #16  
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    Unfortunately you did, your last post is drivel...
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  18. #17  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    the (abandoned) theory that human evolved from an ape species requires the finding of "a missing link"
    According to whom is the evolution of humans from an ape species ancestor abandoned? And when exactly did the abandonment happen, since it was still fully accepted when I checked just now on major journal articles regarding human evolution.

    The requirement of a "missing link" has long been met over and over, its only creationist fringe groups that say it has not.


    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    however the abandoning of the idea of human superiority makes looking for that missing link a bit ridiculous
    This is illogical and is not relevant
    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    if one is willing to extend the defenition of life so viruses, molecules and atoms becomes forms of life (subsequently the universe becomes a complex form of life itselve)
    No, it does not in any way, as atoms and molecules do NOT meet the 5 generally looked for criteria of life, viruses quite arguably DO.

    This fact makes the rest of your post pointless, and rather clearly you have still not spent time reading and understanding about biology, as I stated you needed to do in you last thread. your apology is not accepted, as you have not done as suggested to educate on the topic before making assertions.
    Last edited by Paleoichneum; November 3rd, 2017 at 09:07 AM.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    It is therefore a good idea to separate "abiogenesis" from "evolution" in one's thinking.
    the (abandoned) theory that human evolved from an ape species requires the finding of "a missing link"
    however the abandoning of the idea of human superiority makes looking for that missing link a bit ridiculous
    if one is willing to extend the defenition of life so viruses, molecules and atoms becomes forms of life (subsequently the universe becomes a complex form of life itselve)
    then evolution becomes the aplication of intelligence.
    intelligence: the ability of an entity to improve the quality (subjective) and/or the quantity(lifespan/reproductivity) of its existence
    to become a complex organism: the "members" can focus on a dedicated task
    for an atom: the core is specialized in "mass", the electron is specialized in "velocity", it has an extreem high lifespan and an extreem low reproductivity rate
    I hope I didn't pervert the view of biology science to much lol
    On the contrary, what you have posted has no basis in biology or science of any sort.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    It is therefore a good idea to separate "abiogenesis" from "evolution" in one's thinking.
    the (abandoned) theory that human evolved from an ape species requires the finding of "a missing link"
    According to no one that actually studies biology. Furthermore than "ape" is not a formal taxonomy name, in laymen's terms humans are apes, the last "missing" link was our parents-- check ancestry.com for many more recent ones.

    however the abandoning of the idea of human superiority makes looking for that missing link a bit ridiculous
    huh? The most we can conclude it our ancestors had evolved well enough in their particular environments to survive to pass their genes to us.

    if one is willing to extend the defenition of life so viruses, molecules and atoms becomes forms of life (subsequently the universe becomes a complex form of life itselve)
    Well that an leap of logic and some 20 orders of magnitude of scale--lets just call it gibberish.

    then evolution becomes the aplication of intelligence.
    More giberish--intelligence is just one more evolved tool for the kitbag of life to survive--nothing particularly special about it.

    intelligence: the ability of an entity to improve the quality (subjective) and/or the quantity(lifespan/reproductivity) of its existence
    no evidence of this
    I hope I didn't pervert the view of biology science to much lol
    I think most of us are still waiting for you to make a science comment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    the (abandoned) theory that human evolved from an ape species requires the finding of "a missing link"
    According to whom is the evolution of humans from an ape species ancestor abandoned? And when exactly did the abandonment happen, since it was still fully accepted when I checked just now on major journal articles regarding human evolution.
    The requirement of a "missing link" has long been met over and over, its only creationist fringe groups that say it has not.
    I put the abandoned between brackets because I didn't know if this today is still accepted
    I can differentiate between a human and an ape, however objectively what are the criteria? intelligence? depends on the defenition of intelligence
    the ability to build tools? birds build a nest, i consider a nest to be a tool.sure we outclass all living organisms with our ability to build tools
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    It is therefore a good idea to separate "abiogenesis" from "evolution" in one's thinking.
    the (abandoned) theory that human evolved from an ape species requires the finding of "a missing link"
    According to no one that actually studies biology. Furthermore than "ape" is not a formal taxonomy name, in laymen's terms humans are apes, the last "missing" link was our parents-- check ancestry.com for many more recent ones.

    however the abandoning of the idea of human superiority makes looking for that missing link a bit ridiculous
    huh? The most we can conclude it our ancestors had evolved well enough in their particular environments to survive to pass their genes to us.

    if one is willing to extend the defenition of life so viruses, molecules and atoms becomes forms of life (subsequently the universe becomes a complex form of life itselve)
    Well that an leap of logic and some 20 orders of magnitude of scale--lets just call it gibberish.

    then evolution becomes the aplication of intelligence.
    More giberish--intelligence is just one more evolved tool for the kitbag of life to survive--nothing particularly special about it.

    intelligence: the ability of an entity to improve the quality (subjective) and/or the quantity(lifespan/reproductivity) of its existence
    no evidence of this
    I hope I didn't pervert the view of biology science to much lol
    I think most of us are still waiting for you to make a science comment.
    poor knowledge of taxonometry used within the realm of biology, duly noted
    human is an ape species variant, fully agreeing
    abiogenesis vs biological evolution, so making a defenition of what life is and what is not
    you state that intelligence is a tool of life to survive, but you disagree in the statement that the survival/evolution itselve is a demonstration of intelligence? i am bit confused there
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