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Thread: beehive vs hornet, DNA vs LCR circuit

  1. #1 beehive vs hornet, DNA vs LCR circuit 
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    consider: a hornet enters a beehive, if the hornet manages to get away, it comes back in bigger numbers and the beehive gets nihilated
    defence mechanism of the bees: increase the temperature of the beehive through rapid movement of the bees, the hornet gets killed.

    consider: a human increases its body temperature to fight of a bacterie or virus (feaver)

    common factors: DNA (bees derive from the same queen), temperature increase as a defence mechanism

    consider: an LCR circuit, as used in radio equipment, the combination of an inductor (coil) and a capacitor defines the resonance (frequency response) of the circuit, the resistivity of the circuit is unavoidable but need to be kept as small as possible to get a narrow bandwith of the LC combination. if a bigger bandwith is desired than what can obtained by a single LC circuit, multiple LC circuits can be combined (offset resonance frequencies) or if a better frequency response is desired (same resonance frequencies).if a better frequency stability is desired, one can use a cristal. if yet a better frequency stability is desired, one can place that cristal in a temperature controlled oven...

    consider: DNA, the double helix as the inductance, the C-C-C-N-C-N rings in the C and T molecules, the C-C-C-N-C-N and C-C-N-C-N rings in the G and A molecules as the capacitors. the DNA strand as a transmitter/receiver of energy

    the theory:
    -the bee in happy mode: the bee regulates the body temperature and the amount of transmitted energy as per requirement.

    the temperature of the cells is regulated through reception/transmission ratio of the DNA string. if the transmission is lowered (full grown DNA) , the cell temperature is increased, the double helix is spliced and a single strand DNA and a single strand RNA is combined to form a new double helix in a new cell

    -the bee in defence mode: the body temperature increases (beehive temperature), the bees lowering their transmitted energy (preventing early cel reproduction)
    -the hornet in attack mode: the hornet transmitted energy increases, it tries to lower its temperature but gets overruled by the beehive temperature (provoking a massive cell reproduction), the hornet dies

    -a human cell's DNA is contaminated with a benzeen carbon ring (C-C-C-C-C-C) as a replacement of a C-C-C-N-C-N, resulting in a raised cell temperature and rapid cell reproduction (cancer)...

    what do you think, to far fetched? any ideas on how to test the theory?


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  3. #2  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    you are incorrect. Most bees will just sting an invading insect rather then use the heating. When they do cook an invader, its NOT the whole hive temperature that is raised, rather a ball of workers swarms the invader and the mass raises only the temperature of the invader.

    The rest of your post makes no logical sense, as there is no connection between the situations.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    you are incorrect. Most bees will just sting an invading insect rather then use the heating. When they do cook an invader, its NOT the whole hive temperature that is raised, rather a ball of workers swarms the invader and the mass raises only the temperature of the invader.

    The rest of your post makes no logical sense, as there is no connection between the situations.
    Paleoichneum, thanks for your reply
    OK, let me narrow it down then:
    a ball of workers surrounds an invader, the invader dies before the ball of workers, because the degree of cooling for the workers is higher then that of the invader (being in the center of the commotion)

    Sure raising the temperature isn't the only defence mechanism for a bee/beehive or for a human cell/ human
    human's body temperature is normal around 37 degC, in feaver condition it is raised (lets put the maximum around 42degC)

    Why is a temperature increase deadly beyond a certain point? Why is it used as a defence mechanism?
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  5. #4  
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    It is deadly because above certain temperatures (which vary per organism) molecular, enzymatic, and cellular processes loose coheasion/function resulting in the breakdown of cellular mechanics and cell death.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  6. #5  
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    [QUOTE=The rest of your post makes no logical sense, as there is no connection between the situations[/QUOTE]
    I come from an engineering background, therefore:
    cause:temperature
    mechanism:electromagnetism
    effect:celldeath
    all living organisms contain DNA structures, therefore suspect common ancestors. branche rate, brange merge mechanisms, I have no clue, suspect environmental drama
    therefore link between bees and humans

    cause:temperature
    mechanism:molecular, enzymatic, and cellular processes loose coheasion/function resulting in the breakdown of cellular mechanics
    effect:cell death

    your definition seems to be more "colorful" (not emphasising that underlying mechanism of color is electromagnetism)
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  7. #6  
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    ill be blunt, its NOT electromagnetism.

    Im not being colorful, I'm being accurate, since the effected processes are NOT electromagnetism controlled, and to say they are is totally false.

    There isn't a deep connection between humans and bees, given that there is 500 million years of divergence in evolution since the last common ancestor of vertebrates and arthropods.

    PS the rest of your post is indecipherable due to the very poor spelling and grammar, sorry.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    wrapping it up: I am wrong, making totally false statements, very poor spelling and grammar,...
    thanks for repply

    PS try cohesion next time
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  9. #8  
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    So no reply on the actually point I was making with the post, that electromagnetism is not involved in the scenarios that you are describing?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  10. #9  
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    bees, human: common factor: DNA (because of common ancestors)

    quote:There isn't a deep connection between humans and bees, given that there is 500 million years of divergence in evolution since the last common ancestor of vertebrates and arthropods.

    There isn't a deep connection between humans and bees : so no common ancestors, therefore no common factors?
    there is 500 million years of divergence in evolution since the last common ancestor of vertebrates and arthropods : so common ancestors, therefore common factors?
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  11. #10  
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    Hmmm, there was a common ancestor at least 500 million years ago....then there was 500 million years of divergent evolution, resulting in radical physiological differences. That is my point. Does that make sense to you? The convergence between human body temperature and Apoid defensive behavior, is convergence, not an effect of having a common ancestor 500+ million years ago.

    Does that make sense?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    the temperature of the cells is regulated through reception/transmission ratio of the DNA string. if the transmission is lowered (full grown DNA) , the cell temperature is increased, the double helix is spliced and a single strand DNA and a single strand RNA is combined to form a new double helix in a new cell
    The way heat is generated, and the temperature controlled, in cells is pretty well understood. It has nothing to do with DNA transmitting or receiving energy. You need to read up on the role of ATP in cell metabolism.

    a human cell's DNA is contaminated with a benzeen carbon ring (C-C-C-C-C-C) as a replacement of a C-C-C-N-C-N, resulting in a raised cell temperature and rapid cell reproduction (cancer)
    While benzene is a potential carcinogen it doesn't work that way. And there are many forms of cancer that have absolutely nothing to do with benzene.

    what do you think, to far fetched?
    Yes. Have you studied any biology at all?
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    divergent evolution, resulting in radical physiological differences. That is my point. Does that make sense to you? The convergence between human body temperature and Apoid defensive behavior, is convergence, not an effect of having a common ancestor 500+ million years ago.
    Does that make sense?
    makes sence, by convergence you mean the observations I made+the reduction i made from it (in other words my toughts on the subject)?

    electricity: the flow of electrons through a conductor, governed by ohms law, this flow raises the temperature of the conductor and its resistivity (for most material)

    skin effect:the flow of a high frequency current through a conductor, using its skin rather than its cross section which raises the temperature more than it would compaired to the raise of temperature if the same amount of energy was transported my means of a DC current

    expansion: can the double helix of DNA considered to be a conductor, provided the frequency is high enough?

    electromagnetism: though the term originates from the observation of electric current and the subsequent magnetic field, there isn't a difference between a lightwave and a radiowave (apart from its frequency)

    somehow the negative charged electron circling around a positive charged nucleus has evolved into "a particle with a probabiliy density distribution wavefunction and two spin states" quite a mouth full.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    The way heat is generated, and the temperature controlled, in cells is pretty well understood. It has nothing to do with DNA transmitting or receiving energy. You need to read up on the role of ATP in cell metabolism.
    thanks for yor reply,

    agreeing on the heat generating bit, disagreeing on the temperature controlling bit:
    endothermic phase: food is digested
    exothermic phase:heat is released
    what prevents ATP molecules to start exothermic phase all at the same time?DNA coding? if yes then how prevent scenario for neighbouring cells?


    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Yes. Have you studied any biology at all?
    nope, maritime engineering degree, did some reading though...
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  14. #13  
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    You realise that half of what you quoted/replied to was Not my post right??

    By convergence I mean the appearance of the same mechanism in both organisms, when there is definitively no same origin.

    The big problem is that you are OVERsimplifying things to the point that they are in no way accurate. Yes DNA. Ultimately controls the behavior, but DNA is not a transistor in any way. Its coiled structure is not used to transmit electricity. So your premise is false.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    You realise that half of what you quoted/replied to was Not my post right??
    I apology, I made a copy/past error
    mmm: interesting observation: I made twice an error (so far)
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    The big problem is that you are OVERsimplifying things to the point that they are in no way accurate. Yes DNA. Ultimately controls the behavior, but DNA is not a transistor in any way. Its coiled structure is not used to transmit electricity. So your premise is false.
    just aplying principals proposed by:
    William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347):Occam's razor
    Ludwig Josef Johann Wittgenstein (26 April 1889 – 29 April 1951):tractacus
    inaccuracy is not derived from oversymplification but from the inability to observe what happened 500 millon years ago
    however an accurate clock is provided for (1.4Ghz): the hyperfine structure of a hydrogen
    agreeing: a bee is not a human, a transistor is not DNA
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The way heat is generated, and the temperature controlled, in cells is pretty well understood. It has nothing to do with DNA transmitting or receiving energy. You need to read up on the role of ATP in cell metabolism.
    thanks for yor reply,
    agreeing on the heat generating bit, disagreeing on the temperature controlling bit:
    endothermic phase: food is digested
    exothermic phase:heat is released
    what prevents ATP molecules to start exothermic phase all at the same time?DNA coding? if yes then how prevent scenario for neighbouring cells?
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  17. #16  
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    Occams razor does not mean to OVER SIMPLIFY to the point of absurdity due to not understating the basics of something you are looking at. You admit you do not at all understand basic cell biology. But you ignore when you are told that basic cell biology is NOT equatable to engineering.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  18. #17  
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    thanks for your replies, much appriciated. think I am gonna leave it with that, you problably right, should spent some more time reading/researching, let the theory mature or erode a bit
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