September 20th, 2014, 04:20 PM
Could homosexuality be explained with ''prenatal modification''? Let's say certain genes during embryogenesis are active in the brain and body which causes masculinisation, so different kind of hormon levels compared between different fetus during a critical time in the whomb could be explanation why some people are homosexual?
Some are because they have more Y chromosomes than X when they are born a male and this causes some boys to have feminine qualities. Many just choose to be that way and have no scientific reasoning for it other than what I've stated.
I don't know anything about abnormal X-Y chromosome issues, but I don't think it has a significant effect on sexuality.
It seems that the scientific consensus is shifting toward a genetic basis for sexual preference. It seems strange that an allele suite predisposing a person to homosexuality should be passed on, but there are several hypothesis that demonstrate that just such a thing could happen, and the mechanisms are consistent with evolutionary theory.
More info here;BBC News - The evolutionary puzzle of homosexuality
UMMMMMMM...Say what now?Originally Posted by cosmictraveler
First off orientation has nothing to do whit incorrect number of x and y chromosomes, what is your source for this assertion?
Also what is your source for the assertion that many just choose to be gay?
Last edited by Paleoichneum; September 21st, 2014 at 05:24 PM.
What do you think is the reason Paleoichneum?UMMMMMMM...Say what now?
First off orientation has nothing to do whitincorrect number of x and y chomosomes, what is your source for this assertion?
Also what is your source for the assertion that many just choose to be gay?
I have my views, but I am waiting for a response from Cosmic first.What do you think is the reason Paleoichneum?UMMMMMMM...Say what now?
First off orientation has nothing to do whitincorrect number of x and y chomosomes, what is your source for this assertion?
Also what is your source for the assertion that many just choose to be gay?
So that is a promise is it?I have my views, but I am waiting for a response from Cosmic first.What do you think is the reason Paleoichneum?UMMMMMMM...Say what now?
First off orientation has nothing to do whitincorrect number of x and y chomosomes, what is your source for this assertion?
Also what is your source for the assertion that many just choose to be gay?
??? what point are you trying to make robbity?So that is a promise is it?
I want to know. I want to understand what went on with my son.??? what point are you trying to make robbity?So that is a promise is it?
We will see what cosmic says then go from there.
Considering how much bigotry they are likely to experience throughout their life, it would take a particularly masochistic person to choose to be gay.
Double post please remove.
A lot of unintended harm happens when people assume a Y chromosome makes a person a boy or a man and the lack of a Y chromosome makes a person a girl or a woman. For example, one physician educator on our Medical Advisory Board had the challenging experience of trying to calm a 23-year-old patient who had just been told by a resident that she was “really a man” because the resident had diagnosed the patient as having a Y chromosome and complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS).
It is true that in typical male development, the SRY gene on the tip of the Y chromosome helps to send the embryo down the masculine pathway. But more than the SRY is needed for sex determination and differentiation; for example, women with CAIS have the SRY gene but lack androgen receptors. In terms of hormone effects on their bodies (including their brains), women with CAIS have had much less “masculinization” than the average 46,XX woman because their cells do not respond to androgens.
Moreover, the SRY gene can be translocated onto an X chromosome (so that a 46,XX person may develop along a typical masculine pathway), and there are dozens of genes on chromosomes other than the X and the Y that contribute to sexual differentiation. And beyond the genes, a person’s sex development can be significantly influenced by environmental factors (including the maternal uterine environment in which the fetus developed).
So it is simply incorrect to think that you can tell a person’s sex just looking at whether he or she has a Y chromosome.
Want to know more? The following comes from ISNA’s Medical Advisory Board member Dr. Charmian Quigley:
SRY, discovered in 1989, is a small gene located at the tip of the short arm of the Y chromosome. So what does it do? Actually, like all genes, it does nothing except to act as a blueprint for a protein. In this case, the protein of the same name does funky things to DNA, like bending it and unwinding the 2 strands, so that other proteins can get in and attach themselves to other genes that are then turned on. So how did this gene get its reputation (and its name) as the “sex determining” gene?
As is pretty common in the world of genetics, this was because of some errant mice. Researchers in England took a laboratory-made copy of this gene and inserted it artificially into a female (XX) mouse embryo at a very early stage of development. The mouse was “converted” from female to male, so the gene must have been responsible – right? Well, maybe not. A few years later, a similar gene was found on human chromosome 17. When the important part of this gene was inserted into a female mouse embryo, the same thing happened. Voila! A male.
So now we have 2 genes that can turn a female into a male, and one of them is not located on the Y chromosome! How can that be? It turns out that SRY is probably just a facilitator that allows a more critical gene (or genes) to function, by blocking the action of another opposing factor. Can the magic of genetics do the opposite – turn a male into a female? Indeed it can. A gene on the X chromosome (the chromosome one typically associates with “femaleness”) called DAX1 when present in double copy in a male (XY) mouse, turns it into a female.
So now we have genes on the Y that can turn females with XX chromosomes into males and genes on the X that can turn males with XY chromosomes into females… wow! Maleness and femaleness are NOT determined by having an X or a Y, since switching a couple of genes around can turn things upside down.
In fact, there’s a whole lot more to maleness and femaleness than X or Y chromosomes. About 1 in 20,000 men has no Y chromosome, instead having 2 Xs. This means that in the United States there are about 7,500 men without a Y chromosome. The equivalent situation - females who have XY instead of XX chromosomes - can occur for a variety of reasons and overall is similar in frequency.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...P0sBNyQXF4fpjA
My bad. I remembered about the problem being discussed decades ago and this idea was brought up but now I see that they "changed" the way it was being suggested back then to a "new view".
I don't know. Perhaps some are cause of polygenetic reason. This means would you clone them, their clones also would be homosexual. But I'm pretty sure most gay men are gay cause of prenatal hormonal modifaction, this means the fetus has produces too less testosteron during a critical time JUST BY CHANCE. And also possible that the brain parts which have to be masculinized to have sexual preference towards women, weren't enough masculinzed during a critical time cause of too less gene activation in the brain despite enough tesosteron in the fetus.
I know what you mean with bigotry. I know...Considering how much bigotry they are likely to experience throughout their life, it would take a particularly masochistic person to choose to be gay.
While a good summary of Some factors that result in masculinity vs femininity vrs androgyny, it does not actually address being homosexual, which is what the op was asking about, and what you assert is primarily personal choice.
Do you have data backing the assertion of personal choice?
[QUOTE]Do you have data backing the assertion of personal choice?[QUOTE]
No, just my opinion.
Cliche as it may be, do you choose to be heterosexual? Do you see an attractive man and think, "Nah, I'm going to be straight today"?
As a heterosexual make, I know that I don't choose to be straight. I am hardwired into appreciating the female body.Cliche as it may be, do you choose to be heterosexual? Do you see an attractive man and think, "Nah, I'm going to be straight today"?So its my opinion that the whole "It's a personal choice" argument is a load of rubbish. So I agree with Paleoicheum that I want to see some data that supports the idea that it is nothing but personal choice, and if there is no data then we don't need to give that stance any credibility.
We shouldn't confuse being a man or woman, with liking a man or woman. That might work for some societies' own purposes, but it rarely correlates so cleanly at the individual level... even for heterosexuals.
So if people are born homo or hetero, they must be born with some innate attraction to sexual traits in others. Instincts. Human instincts are elusive to science thus far, and it's difficult to explain how attraction to a discrete set of traits could take hold of our minds, though apparently it does.
[QUOTE=cosmictraveler;595586]Do you have data backing the assertion of personal choice?
No, just my opinion.
Based on what? As has been noted by two members already, they made no active decision to be straight, so why do you assume it is different for me and other gays/lesbians and was as a majority have chosen to be this way?
Last edited by Paleoichneum; September 26th, 2014 at 08:22 AM.
You could be a little more charitable and concede that sexual tastes are not completely out of control.
If it were that simple, at age 4 you'd be checking out the babysitter and getting a stiffie. But we both know this appreciation is something that developed and elaborated, and meanwhile you'd matured enough to have some executive control over your attention and interests. E.g if you turned out to like Swedish women we'd say that's at least partially your decision.I am hardwired into appreciating the female body.
Hold on. Who said "nothing but" personal choice?
There is at least some personal choice in everything we do and much of what we are. Even your adult height is influenced by personal choices you made as a child and teenager. Sexual orientation is not so clear cut as this-or-that and no-control.
Actually pong, for the vast majority of the human species it is very much an issue of hard wiring, as we two have discussed before. There is a small subset of the species who are,openly acknowledging or not, bisexual. This is the only section that has choice in the manner you are referring as they are attracted to both genders. The rest of the population have Kinsey scale ratings that fall far enough to one end of the scale or the other that the gender they are attracted to is very clear cut.
Yeah, it looks like hard wiring. What bugs me is the hard wiring's in a mysterious black box of sharply defined instincts we're been unable to penetrate. I want to know how it functions, exactly, without any trite/political/self-serving explanations.
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:51 PM.
As cosmic notes further into his post, no, they are not all infertile, the large majority are fully functional adults that can and do have children.
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:51 PM.
I agree.
Also, I have encountered (as I believe most or all of us have) various types of homosexuals, for example: men who identify as male, men who identify as female, women who identify as female, and women who identify as male. And, for example, I perceive the two types of men described above as significantly different.
I believe that homosexuality can occur through nurture and/or nature, and I cannot imagine being able to definitely/scientifically eliminate either possible cause.
It may occur due to the hormonal imbalance though it is not clearly understood. But opposite sex attraction occurs due to the brain signals which may trigger some endogenous as well as exogenous hormonal glands to get different excitatory stages of our body.
For an example, seeing sexual or sensual seens (in porn movies), a man who crossed the puberty stage gets excited and it is normal because some visions in our brain trigger some male hormonal glands (testosterone) to get the sexual excitement.
In case of homo sexuality, the hormonal imbalance may occur.
It needs more study, and human genome study can help us to reach the core reason responsible for this homosexuality, because DNA or gene is responsible for synthesizing different proteins. Abnormal genomic expression may lead to produce the misfolded or abnormal proteins (hormones) and may be responsible for the protein (hormone) malfunction.
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:52 PM.
Not everything which develops is a choice. The fact that so many homosexuals go through adolescence confused about their feelings exemplifies that. They are told by society what is normal and they desperately (in many cases) attempt to conform to that. It causes them to lead a lie and after years of this buildup of emotions, many homosexuals end up with psychological issues (increased rates of depression and suicide).Really? And was your attitude to woman the same in age of 10? And how would you know what to do with women if your parents, friends or movies would never told you that? Do you think you would guess? And your parents never asked your questions: "So, Jack, which girl in your class is your favorite?" And your parents or friends never ever told you that to be a gay is wrong or even disgusting? Try to remember that.As a heterosexual make, I know that I don't choose to be straight. I am hardwired into appreciating the female body.
The only choice we make in the matter is whether or not we tell these kids who are entering sexual maturity that WHATEVER sex they feel attracted to, they are normal and we will not treat them differently. Unfortunately, we are still making the wrong choice in that regard more often than not.
I'm most interested in the bolded part. With insects or birds we can pare down a stylized image that triggers an instinct, and it works consistently. But people seem to develop their own personal triggers. We have unique "tastes" or "chemistry". The variety of porn proves that, I think. I've suggested that people enter puberty with a pressing need to associate the new sexual urges with some object, and we receive subtle inborn cues about which object(s) that should be. For analogy suppose you got a drug that made you terrified - then you might imagine some object of terror. If you're predisposed to fearing spiders, then you'll think about the last spider you saw. Same for a drug that makes you hungry - you'll probably get a specific food in mind. Puberty is like a drug that makes you horny. The subjective illusion is that "that person makes me horny" when in fact it is one's own hormones, and the mind casting around for a suitable object.
Careful with words like "malfunction" because it tells people they're bad.
Yes really, stanley. There is a huge amount of attraction that is instinct based and has nothing to do with being taught. And there is inundation from the first moments of life that heterosexuallity is the norm, and anything else is not acceptable. This leads to years repression and fear for anyone that is gay.Really? And was your attitude to woman the same at age of 10? And how would you know what to do with a women if your parents, friends or movies would never told you that? Do you think you would simply guess? And your parents never asked you the questions: "So, Jack, which girl in your class is your favorite?" And your parents or friends never ever told you that to be a gay is wrong or even disgusting? Try to remember that. You are hardwired but by whom, only by nature or also by your parents and environment?As a heterosexual make, I know that I don't choose to be straight. I am hardwired into appreciating the female body.
Personally? Quite confused. At that age I remember them being different and icky, but also starting to be interested for reasons I didn't understand yet.
Yeah. It might have taken a few tries but the drives were there starting at about age 13 for me. (BTW parents or friends never told me the process; I ended up looking it up in an encyclopedia.)And how would you know what to do with a women if your parents, friends or movies would never told you that? Do you think you would simply guess?
Parents? No. Friends? Quite a few said that. (Of course, some of my peers said I was a freak, so early on I learned not to place much trust in what they said.)And your parents or friends never ever told you that to be a gay is wrong or even disgusting?
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:52 PM.
jfgi
Stanley "it" is quite clearly a reference to gender preference, and the looking it up part Im assuming to be how to go about "being" with a person intimately. There is no contradiction.
My basic sexual orientations were, yes. I never had any interest in men.
Sort of like I have a basic drive to eat, even though when I was two I didn't know how to cook. You could certainly say that my eating was later modified by my learning the skill of cooking. But it would be silly to say "since you had to learn how to cook, your desire to eat could not be hardwired into your brain!"
Someone who doesn't fit in, who is outside the norm etc. I'd enter NASA competitions while they played basketball. so I was the freak.What is "freak"?(Of course, some of my peers said I was a freak, so early on I learned not to place much trust in what they said.)
But a homosexual will also express hormones in the same context... Or you are saying that homosexuals can not do that (i mean, be sexually excited)?
Sexual hormones ar lipids, not peptides, so they are not the product of gene expression. I am not a doctor but in homosexuals the problem is not incorrectly synthesized hormones,, Do you have citations that sustain what you wrote?It needs more study, and human genome study can help us to reach the core reason responsible for this homosexuality, because DNA or gene is responsible for synthesizing different proteins. Abnormal genomic expression may lead to produce the misfolded or abnormal proteins (hormones) and may be responsible for the protein (hormone) malfunction.
If that is what he is asserting, then, as a gay man I can very much state he is incorrect.But a homosexual will also express hormones in the same context... Or you are saying that homosexuals can not do that (i mean, be sexually excited)?
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:53 PM.
If you are a homosexual for now and suddenly some sleeping heterosexual gen will wake up in you and change your sexual orientation (I do not claim it's possible, just an example), then you will simply follow genetic program which works in you and will try to find happiness in heterosexual relations? No hesitations, no search for cure, no visits to psychiatrists? If it's normal and people suppose simply follow their genetic program, why bother? This is question to anyone homosexual on this forum.
All people think that any sudden and dramatic change is something that needs to be reverted, unless it conveys an obvious benefit - but even then they will still visit a doctor to find out what happened.
This is a loaded question. First off, it is an absurd and completely implausible hypothetical scenario which adds nothing to the debate. Second, it assumes that a sudden alteration of one's entire persona is something a proponent of homosexual acceptance would consider trivial. Finally, you're creating a straw man by suggesting that anyone who claims they act based upon a genetic predisposition should get a free pass (this sounds like it's one step away from suggesting we let people marry turtles or that pedophiles "don't have a choice in who they desire").
That having been said, I don't see a single part of your argument that is worth addressing beyond what I've already stated. I can only assume that if you woke up and found out you were a homosexual, you would demand that people persecute you, decry your private life, and demand that some of the rights you held when you went to bed be stripped away because you no longer conform to current societal norms.
Read this please.... Not all homosexuals are the same...as not all heterosexual are the same... Homosexualism is a condition way more complicated than just say men like men and women like women..I agree.
Also, I have encountered (as I believe most or all of us have) various types of homosexuals, for example: men who identify as male, men who identify as female, women who identify as female, and women who identify as male. And, for example, I perceive the two types of men described above as significantly different.
It has biological, psychological an sociological components...as heterosexualism...
Why do you limit it to ONLY heterosexual members of the forum?
As has already been stated, your scenario is absurd and does not actually convey anything related to reality.
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:53 PM.
Stanley it seems fairly clear that you are fishing for something specific in the answers. Why exactly do you outright dismiss the revers of your query when you are pushing your version?
As has already been said three times now your supposition is false and does not bring anything to the discussion.
Is not genetic...But doctor do not suppose to provide a cure since if it is genetic then it is normal? And why to afraid such a change if there is nothing bad and this is just a variant of norm? It's like change a set of teeth during you life, nothing more...
It was exactly the same example that you gave, but from the perspective of homosexuals.
If it is a meaningless example, then so was yours.
Suddenly changing your sexual orientation is not normal.
If you suddenly shrunk to 5ft, you would go to the doctor, would you not?
Suddenly changing your sexual orientation is not "a variant of norm".And why to afraid such a change if there is nothing bad and this is just a variant of norm? It's like change a set of teeth during you life, nothing more...
Last edited by RedPanda; October 1st, 2014 at 11:28 AM.
I know this is from a couple days ago, but I've been away and I feel I should reply to this. So here goes.Really? And was your attitude to woman the same at age of 10? And how would you know what to do with a women if your parents, friends or movies would never told you that? Do you think you would simply guess? And your parents never asked you the questions: "So, Jack, which girl in your class is your favorite?" And your parents or friends never ever told you that to be a gay is wrong or even disgusting? Try to remember that. You are hardwired but by whom, only by nature or also by your parents and environment?As a heterosexual make, I know that I don't choose to be straight. I am hardwired into appreciating the female body.
I have always liked women, When I was 3 years old I was attracted to my friends older sister and proposed to her. That embarrassing moment is forever ingrained in my memory. When the Flintstones movie came out in 1994, I was 4 years old and fell in love with Halle Berry. I also fell head over heels for Cameron Diaz in The Mask, which also came out in 94. The first girl I kissed was when I was 3 and going to swimming lessons at the YMCA. So my attraction to women has nothing to do with parental or peer influence. Also for the record I didn't find out about sex or reproduction from my parents, I read a children's book about it when I was 6. They didn't intend for that, but when my Aunt gave me a bunch of children's books, no one really paid attention to what was there so it slipped through to my hands. As for when I was 10, I was already trying to see boobs, by the time I was 12 I was entered into a $20 bet with my best friend on which of us was going to lose our virginity first.Admittedly at the age of 10 I did think the concept of a blowjob was gross, but the idea of female body was pleasant.
Blonde hair is a result of a genetic difference from people with brown hair. Why don't doctors find a way to cure blonde hair?
I don´t remember myself when I was 3 years old. Falconer, do you have a really good memory? It´s a curious question, that has nothing to with this topic
Yes I have excellent memory. My earliest memory is when I was 2 and attempting to sword fight (using cheap plastic toy swords) my cousin Eric. I know that age is correct because I only ever met him when I was 2. Memories from when I was 2 are really fragmented and just kinda of spotty. But from the age of 3 onward I have a pretty full memory of events and even day to day life.I don´t remember myself when I was 3 years old. Falconer, do you have a really good memory? It´s a curious question, that has nothing to with this topic
That´s awesome... are you like sheldon cooper who has eidetic memory?Yes I have excellent memory. My earliest memory is when I was 2 and attempting to sword fight (using cheap plastic toy swords) my cousin Eric. I know that age is correct because I only ever met him when I was 2. Memories from when I was 2 are really fragmented and just kinda of spotty. But from the age of 3 onward I have a pretty full memory of events and even day to day life.I don´t remember myself when I was 3 years old. Falconer, do you have a really good memory? It´s a curious question, that has nothing to with this topic
Also.. do you work in science?
There is a cure: hair dye.
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Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:53 PM.
What are you people talking about????
Homosexuals can sometimes play pretend with their true selves better than any platinum blonde. It's not a good thing, of course.There is a cure: hair dye.
Are you saying that taller people are superior to shorter people?
And I can only assume that you couldn't find fault in any of my other statements:
It was exactly the same example that you gave, but from the perspective of homosexuals.
If it is a meaningless example, then so was yours.
Suddenly changing your sexual orientation is not normal.
Suddenly changing your sexual orientation is not "a variant of norm"
Perhaps you should simply retract your "meaningless example".
Last edited by RedPanda; October 1st, 2014 at 04:40 PM.
There is no other word for it; wrong.
Would it be a positive change to wake up with a tumor on your pituitary gland and that you grew to 9 feet tall overnight?
Sexual orientation is clearly inborn and science will give us the proofs the next 30 or 40 years! It depends on how well our human DNA is understand and when they do methylation profiling of heterosexual and homosexual brains.Read this please.... Not all homosexuals are the same...as not all heterosexual are the same... Homosexualism is a condition way more complicated than just say men like men and women like women..I agree.
Also, I have encountered (as I believe most or all of us have) various types of homosexuals, for example: men who identify as male, men who identify as female, women who identify as female, and women who identify as male. And, for example, I perceive the two types of men described above as significantly different.
It has biological, psychological an sociological components...as heterosexualism...
You seem quite sure... do you have papers that are starting to relate epigenetics with sexual orientation?Sexual orientation is clearly inborn and science will give us the proofs the next 30 or 40 years! It depends on how well our human DNA is understand and when they do methylation profiling of heterosexual and homosexual brains.Read this please.... Not all homosexuals are the same...as not all heterosexual are the same... Homosexualism is a condition way more complicated than just say men like men and women like women..I agree.
Also, I have encountered (as I believe most or all of us have) various types of homosexuals, for example: men who identify as male, men who identify as female, women who identify as female, and women who identify as male. And, for example, I perceive the two types of men described above as significantly different.
It has biological, psychological an sociological components...as heterosexualism...
I think we're saying the same thing.
Some of my friends, housemates, neighbors and coworkers have been homosexuals. From my own experiences, homosexuals exist along quite a broader spectrum than heterosexuals. A gay man can, for example, find general acceptance (and personal relationships) anywhere from behaving in a very masculine manner at one end of the spectrum to a very feminine manner at the other end.
Compare to an effeminate heterosexual man (I have such a friend), who would rarely find general acceptance or attract a woman.
As is the situation with other minorities, homosexuals have the privilege of demanding acceptance, at times, as an equal to the majority and, at other times, acceptance as a minority. Those in the majority, such as heterosecuals, have no such privilege.
So, I would say that homosexualism is even more complicated than heterosexualism, and not all of it is positive either.
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