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Thread: Immunology: Why can't small molecules trigger allergic reactions?

  1. #1 Immunology: Why can't small molecules trigger allergic reactions? 
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    Some small molecules such as penicillin cannot trigger an allergic response themselves (haptens). But why is it that the IgE can't be triggered by small molecules ( penicillin monomer, ethanol, water, carbon dioxide) ? I thought it was the shape that was required, not size, to trigger a reaction.


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  3. #2  
    Forum Masters Degree mat5592's Avatar
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    I don't know, why can't we start a boxing match with a Plasmodium vivax schizont?


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    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankBaker View Post
    Some small molecules such as penicillin cannot trigger an allergic response themselves (haptens). But why is it that the IgE can't be triggered by small molecules ( penicillin monomer, ethanol, water, carbon dioxide) ? I thought it was the shape that was required, not size, to trigger a reaction.

    Imagine having a 4 meter diameter metal hoop, to stop objects from going somewhere. A square, with the same surface as the hoop will never pass, neither will a pentagon or a triangle. Neither will a circle with 4,1 meter diameter. However, if you throw golfballs at it, they will all pass.


    Point is, size does still matter. Immunoglobuline will still need a certain size, or it can't connect. And it needs at least 2 recognizable positions that do not occur in the body. This way this molecule needs to be of considerable size.


    The "arms" on an immunoglobuline has a minimum detection size. I don't exactly know what it is, but this depends on the structure, the originality, and some rarer elements, such as sulfur, zinc or nickel.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Frank/gaia, whats your overall push with all the short immune system thread. you are clearly working towards a larger goal with these questions.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    But brain receptors can bind to things such as melatonin, i.e very small molecules.

    1. What is the minimum size?
    2. Why is size of a molecule so important to an IgE when brain receptors have no issue with size?
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  7. #6  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    The blood brain barrier is key to keeping a VERY tight control on what actually touches the brain.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Frank/gaia, whats your overall push with all the short immune system thread. you are clearly working towards a larger goal with these questions.
    I predict it will be "so you can spontaneously catch on fire."
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    I'm trying to refute this woman who says she can't drink anything containing water without going into shock.
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    Moderator Moderator Cogito Ergo Sum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankBaker View Post
    I'm trying to refute this woman who says she can't drink anything containing water without going into shock.

    Why? Is she scamming people? Does she form a threat for herself and/or others? Does she actively spread misinformation about her condition?
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    Nah, she leaves that to SHC nutjobs like "Frank"...
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    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankBaker View Post
    I'm trying to refute this woman who says she can't drink anything containing water without going into shock.
    It's a simple fact that everything you eat contains water, even crackers. So to solve this, all she has to do is eat ice cream all day. But yeah, she is incorrect. Noone is allergic to water, but hypersensitive to water saturation and saline levels is a thing.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  13. #12  
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    Crackers don't contain very much water at all. People allergic to latex can often handle small amounts of it naturally found in some fruits for example.

    I'm asking why size is allegedly so important to IgE receptors, when there are protein receptors in the brain which can bind melatonin, and other very small, non-protein molecules.
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    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankBaker View Post
    Crackers don't contain very much water at all. People allergic to latex can often handle small amounts of it naturally found in some fruits for example.

    I'm asking why size is allegedly so important to IgE receptors, when there are protein receptors in the brain which can bind melatonin, and other very small, non-protein molecules.
    No, latex is no allergen. And crackers still contain water...

    melatonin has very specific shapes, and it binds in a totally different way then an IgX does. Antigenes have not been specifically created to bind to antibodies. However melatonin has..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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    Forum Freshman Deepraj's Avatar
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    To develop an allergic reaction in our body some basic fundamental things are needed.

    1. The pathogen or foreign peptide as well as allergen have to be foreign and must not be recognized as self tissue.
    2. The experience of our immune cells (Adaptive immunity) with the foreign pathogen or peptide. If our immune cells had experienced once then in case of secondary attack the memory B/ T cells will be generated in a large scale to destroy the pathogenic substance.
    3. Yes the size matters and when the antigens can't enhance the immunogenicity because of this, then adjuvants are added to the antigen. Adjuvants are substances when mixed with an antigen and injected with it, enhance the immunogenicity of that antigen.

    Due to last point the IgE and other antibodies / immunoglobulins will be more effective and can enhance our immunogenicity if administration of an antigen occurs with adjuvants.

    But to understand the proteins (antigen) interact with our host immunoglobulins or antibodies, we need to do different immunoassay techniques with ELISA. In ELISA or enzyme immuno assay we used to make a protein protein interaction between the serum or antigen and the high quality antibodies (high quality proteins we buy for) specific to an antigenic protein. If that antigen is present in the serum specific for the antibody we are using, then the Ag-Ab interaction in ELISA plate gives the positive result with color reaction.
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