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Thread: Fathers who instinctively protect their daughters

  1. #1 Fathers who instinctively protect their daughters 
    Forum Freshman EvolvedAtheist's Avatar
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    What are your thoughts on this? I am curious as to what the biological and psychological background of this is. Why do fathers (particularly human) feel the need to protect their daughters from harm and from sex-driven males?


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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    They try to protect them because they love them and anything that is loved will always be protected because that's what love is about.


    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
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    A common evolutionary strategy of human behavior or any other animal behavior is kin selection. People will try to ensure the survival and reproductive success of close relatives to increase the frequency of their genes in the population. A man's daughter is obviously a very close relative. In order to help his daughter achieve best reproductive success, it would be to dad's advantage to see her survive and to get in a stable marriage where the husband is providing for and protecting his grandchildren. This would be less likely to happen if she got pregnant out of wedlock.
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    Forum Professor Zwirko's Avatar
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    I'd say it's largely a cultural phenomenon.
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    Because they know what horny teenage boys are like, having been one themselves.
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    Protecting their daughters from harm is one thing. But some push it too far by not allowing anybody to get close to them, is that residual sexual domination. It's his property, he is not allowed to have sex with her, so nobody is? As i have read that sociopathic behavior comes out of a normal instinct. In this case, protecting a female over a male, because a male is physically stronger, and less appealing to stronger human specimens (other males).

    But it could be all the tricks he had in the past, and he knows other guys will use the same tricks on his daughter. Basically, if he is protective, he was an asshole as a young guy.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

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  8. #7  
    Forum Bachelors Degree One beer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Because they know what horny teenage boys are like, having been one themselves.
    I would think Daecon has it right.

    There comes a point in every parent's life when they have to let their children face the world and all its challenges by themselves, and it is difficult to let go. With daughters, there is the added danger of men and sex.

    From getting pregnant to much much worse, there are many dangers out there for a young innocent female, so a girl's father is probably going to be more protective to her than he might be to a son - at least until he thinks she has a reasonable amount of common sense and knowledge.

    OB
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    Quote Originally Posted by One beer View Post
    There comes a point in every parent's life when they have to let their children face the world and all its challenges by themselves, and it is difficult to let go.
    I could not agree more. I have just been through this with one of my teenage daughters ( now married ), and going through it again with the other daughter as we speak. It is extremely hard to let go and accept that they are now adults who make their own decisions, not all of which you necessarily agree with. In fact, this is one of the hardest things you do in life.

    From getting pregnant to much much worse, there are many dangers out there for a young innocent female
    Indeed

    so a girl's father is probably going to be more protective to her than he might be to a son
    Most definitely.
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  10. #9  
    Forum Junior AndresKiani's Avatar
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    That's the difference between us and most other apes. Apes have a fission fusion structural societies, while humans have a family oriented structure.
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    That's the difference between us and most other apes. Apes have a fission fusion structural societies, while humans have a family oriented structure.
    Nuh. Are we like chimps with big aggressive males who fight among themselves but status is maintained quite stably by the hierarchy among the females? Or are we more like bonobos who are pacifist by comparison with a matriarchal system where all upsets and excitements are managed or smoothed over by a little bit of smooching or a lot of sex.

    We are apes ourselves and our social structures are much more varied and much more dependent on environment and cultural heritage than our related species.

    As for fathers and daughters. So long as the family has been open and honest about sexual matters and the relationships between sons, daughters, parents are open and supportive then it really shouldn't be much of a problem.

    We found the issue of drugs to be much more problematic than sex. As teenagers, they had stereotypically teenaged I'm-always-right, black-and-white, sneering, quite rigid views about drugs and alcohol and people who used them being dreadful, beyond the pale. We had to push the message quite hard that we Really Did Not Care if they had to call for an ambulance for a friend who had a bad reaction to something when they were at a party or other event. We'd much, much rather deal with the aftermath of a friend surviving such an experience than face the grief and guilt of them dying. (And we'd talk about wisely choosing friends/ social events/ venues some other time entirely.)
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    That's the difference between us and most other apes. Apes have a fission fusion structural societies, while humans have a family oriented structure.
    Nuh. Are we like chimps with big aggressive males who fight among themselves but status is maintained quite stably by the hierarchy among the females? Or are we more like bonobos who are pacifist by comparison with a matriarchal system where all upsets and excitements are managed or smoothed over by a little bit of smooching or a lot of sex.

    We are apes ourselves and our social structures are much more varied and much more dependent on environment and cultural heritage than our related species.

    As for fathers and daughters. So long as the family has been open and honest about sexual matters and the relationships between sons, daughters, parents are open and supportive then it really shouldn't be much of a problem.

    We found the issue of drugs to be much more problematic than sex. As teenagers, they had stereotypically teenaged I'm-always-right, black-and-white, sneering, quite rigid views about drugs and alcohol and people who used them being dreadful, beyond the pale. We had to push the message quite hard that we Really Did Not Care if they had to call for an ambulance for a friend who had a bad reaction to something when they were at a party or other event. We'd much, much rather deal with the aftermath of a friend surviving such an experience than face the grief and guilt of them dying. (And we'd talk about wisely choosing friends/ social events/ venues some other time entirely.)
    Other Apes, even the ones closest to us like Chimps, Bonobos, Ateles. These monkeys have a dynamic fission fusion social structure. Their relationships are built off of hierarchy and not love and compassion like ours is. There is an argument to be made for Bonobos, but even with the Bonobos it is evident that their non aggressive behavior has evolved from their use of sexual communication and a strong bonding between the less aggressive females and a nearly non existent male alliance.

    Otherwise, the best way to describe human social domain vs. other apes' social domains, is the fact that apes have a very dynamic fission fusion social structure, as oppose to our very consistent, very relationship strong, social domain.
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  13. #12  
    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
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    A parent's preferred offspring does not always follow gender (ie, mothers want daughters, fathers want sons). I've known several men positively endeared to their daughters (daddy's little girls, of course). If I had known that fathers of the bride could cry so much at weddings, I would have bought stock in Kleenex a long time ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Because they know what horny teenage boys are like, having been one themselves.
    As the saying goes ...
    If you have a son, you need to beware of one little p***k, but if you have a daughter, you need to beware of all the little p***ks.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    I think this behavior is largely driven by the difference in strategy for reproductive success between human males and females. Evolutionary pressure drives us to produce as many offspring as possible that carry our genetic code. But human sexual dimorphism means there is a vast gulf between the amount of energy invested by males and females in producing offspring.

    A woman will spend 9 months in gestation and several months at least breastfeeding, the metabolic costs to her during these periods is enormous. A man, on the other hand, spends a few minutes having sex. While it may take several days for his testicles to completely replace all the sperm used in one ejaculation, the amount of sperm stored is massive overkill, and studies have shown that men can have sex every few hours with high fertility rates every time. Thus female reproductive strategy is to expend considerable extra effort caring for the child, if the child dies she has wasted over a year or more of the fertile period of her lifespan in a failed attempt. Her odds of success are increased considerably if she can get a male to bond exclusively with her and help care for her children. The optimum male strategy, though, for having as many children as possible, is simply to have sex as frequently as possible with as many fertile females as possible, because the metabolic cost of each attempt is tiny compared to that of the female.

    Now look at it from the potential grandfather's point of view. His psychology is driven by evolutionary pressure to see his children perpetuate his genes. His daughter's odds of reproductive success are enhanced considerably if she can get a capable male to bond with her and help care for her offspring. Thus the grandfather instinctively tries to see to it she only associates with capable males likely to behave in that manner. His sons, however, are most likely to reproduce the grandfather's genes if they simply have sex with just about any random female available. Thus the potential grandfather shows far less interest in the suitability of his sons' potential mates than his daughters'.
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  15. #14  
    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    If I had known that fathers of the bride could cry so much at weddings, I would have bought stock in Kleenex a long time ago.
    You won't understand this until you walk your own daughter down that aisle - there aren't any words to describe what that is like !
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    I think we protected both of our kids. Not just our daughter.

    But there came a time that they had to think for themselves.

    Kids moved away. You can't protect them.

    You can only hope you gave them the information they needed to be wise.

    Markus......I will be a total cryball when and IF my kids ever get married.

    FINALLLY daughter has a BF!!

    She is an amazing woman, and very picky!! *L*
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  17. #16  
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    I think most people were talking about teenagers during the discussion, but I just loooove this shirt-comment relating to a 20 year old daughter.

    The viral image. Photo: Tumblr/Kristine Speare














































    The article I got it from is downright terrible. https://shine.yahoo.com/team-mom/-fe...163733847.html

    I know I'm showing my age when I say this, but I find articles that are about stuff "going viral" or "trending" or any of that social media stuff talking about itself talking about itself talking abo ... not just tedious but egregious.

    If something is being talked about then talk about that something, not about the entirely pedestrian idea that people are talking about it. It's the vacuous celebrity chatter approach overflowing to warp-reduce-distort-evade-overwhelm the content when more substantial or serious matters are involved.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  18. #17  
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    Oh lawks! I can't edit my own posts at the moment. Don't know how that happened.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhanegan View Post
    But human sexual dimorphism means there is a vast gulf between the amount of energy invested by males and females in producing offspring. .
    It's fairly mild compared to many other animals, suggesting there's definitely also a valid strategy of supporting the mother and raising the children as part of an optimum reproductive strategy--and from that perspective father's protecting their offspring is probably hardwired to a pretty good extent, though perhaps not as strongly as for the mother.
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    I gave my daughter the 10 rules of dating her.



    Daughter: No
    But I have a new bf




    babe: ahahah I thought so!
    good on you Daughter!!
    L
    DOES HE HAVE HAIR?
    Is he short or tall
    is he funny
    MOM wants to know!
    bring him to the wedding! L



    Daughter: He's got lots of hair. Curly. Dark




    Mom: OK...I like him
    just KIDDING




    Daughter: He's got a good sense of humor. Honest. In ********



    Mom: HAIR
    ok
    height
    fuck
    in ********?
    this is the one you had a date with last we talked on the phone?





    Daughter: 5'11''



    mjgovednik: perfect
    he can come and work for one of the business's *laughing*...just kidding!
    what is his name!
    please tell me it isn Fabio.....




    Jenn: Juan Pablo (made this up for this site)




    Mom: ok I am giving you shit
    OK...NANA will like that name L
    He is Swiss, yes?
    German Swiss?






    Daughter: *************************************





    Mom: he is funny...ok that is good..so he is fun....
    can he also have a good serious discussion and a fair debate




    Daughter: He's more communicative and direct than me




    Mom: interesting....you find that a good thing?




    Daughtr: Yup




    Mom: so do I.
    he has hair...this is a plus.....he has a 1 on the scale of 10 MOM OK for boyfriend......1. Hair




    Mom: now he has to have 9 more points
    2....he is gainfully employed....he then has two points
    3. He has a sense of humor...ok ...3 point
    4. He is taller than 5'3
    ok he has 4 points....
    5. He can discuss stuff...
    ok he has a total of 5 points...the other five will be painfully earned.....


    Mom: DOES HE PLAY GOLF?



    Daughter: And tennis



    Mom: he can earn the 6th with that
    OK DAMN
    He plays golf...which reminds me...if I come over early..I am bringing you new clubs..
    like the ones you played here.....
    Tennis...well we have all seen you play and you and dad were the best of the four....
    6 points
    will he laugh at your mother.....
    these are the vital last points

    Mom: Does he treat you well, not just with laughter but with thoughtfullness and communication and affection.
    Will Dad and your brother like him?
    And do you feel good about him.
    that is the ten!
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  21. #20  
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    I have been wondering about the spheres of identity lately and this seems relevant. Our farm cat has kittens. She lies with them in a box all day. How does she know to do that? To care for them? What part of her connects with them and says "these are a part of me so I will care for them"?

    With a mother, the physical connection is obvious: these creatures are in her body and then they come out. She knows they are part of her.

    But what about a father?

    I think it has to do with pain and perception of pain. Why do I consider my hand to be part of me? why do I draw my personal boundary approximately where my skin ends and the atmosphere begins? Probably because I have pain receptors in my body which provide feedback when any part of me is injured, pricked, pushed, etc. My brain tells me that is "part of me" because when something happens to that part, I am notified.

    Are these notifications restricted to neural networks and pain, or do the pheremones from my girlfriend (cat or human) count? If a male cat can tell on a pheremonal level that his woman is in duress, or simply that she is whining a lot, that affects him and she becomes part of his "sensory network". Part of his world.

    We do this with kittens, and parents, neighbors, friends. We do this with material items too. If I buy a chicken pie to nourish me, that's part of my world. When I smell it burning in the oven that is an alarm to my sensory network and it affects me. I feel a very mild form of pain when the chicken pie burns.

    A father is receptive to all of these communications. He hears the kittens cry, or the mother cry about their duress. These signals affect him, even if only on a primal level along the lines of "my woman isn't horny and that's a problem; I better get her and her kitties some food".

    Why do we draw our identity boundaries where we do? Why do some have more stringent requirements for these boundaries (non-sympathetic), while others very broad qualifications (very sympathetic). All good questions.

    Just my opinion... no science here.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by haugeb View Post
    I have been wondering about the spheres of identity lately and this seems relevant. Our farm cat has kittens. She lies with them in a box all day. How does she know to do that? To care for them? What part of her connects with them and says "these are a part of me so I will care for them"?

    With a mother, the physical connection is obvious: these creatures are in her body and then they come out. She knows they are part of her.

    But what about a father?
    It depends on the species, but the father often has a pretty good idea if he's the biological father or not. Not that the tom cat "knows" those things but he will instinctively act differently in the situation where he is probably the biological father. An example would be not killing the kittens if he has been the dominant cat mating with the females on the farm. I'm pretty sure I read that a farm cat who takes over as dominant male will kill the kittens of the previous male, much like lions do. I don't think tom cats actually nurture the kittens.
    I've been watching an eagle nest cam. The male eagles nurture the eaglets just as much as the females. They build nests, take turns incubating the eggs, and both male and female bring food back to the nest. But they are very territorial, and don't allow any other eagles in the area during the nesting season. So it's almost certain that the male of the pair is the biological father.
    With humans, there are certain cultural norms that make it more probable that the male is the biological father, but it doesn't work that way all the time
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  23. #22  
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    The other thing to remember is that men are just as likely as women to have nurturing instincts. Which is just as well considering how often women used to die in pregnancy/ childbirth and the common arrangement in many forms of social organisation that men are responsible for teaching certain skills to all children and/or take entire responsibility for boys at a certain age. No one is especially surprised, after all, that many gay couples want to have families with children and grandchildren in much the same way as their heterosexual brothers and sisters do.

    And speaking of non-human species raising their offspring, not eagles this time but penguins. Gay penguins steal eggs from straight couples - Telegraph

    The thing that amazes me here is not the desire to have an egg/chick to raise, nor stealing an egg that doesn't belong to you, but the cunning and cleverness involved in trying to deceive the real parents of the egg these two bloke penguins are trying to steal. (I'd think it's just as well penguins don't have hands, or feet capable of flexible grasping. They'd be a lot better at this substitution/ sleight of egg-rock if they did.)
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by haugeb View Post
    I have been wondering about the spheres of identity lately and this seems relevant. Our farm cat has kittens. She lies with them in a box all day. How does she know to do that? To care for them? What part of her connects with them and says "these are a part of me so I will care for them ?
    Oxytocin.


    OB
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by haugeb View Post
    I have been wondering about the spheres of identity lately and this seems relevant. Our farm cat has kittens. She lies with them in a box all day. How does she know to do that? To care for them? What part of her connects with them and says "these are a part of me so I will care for them"?

    With a mother, the physical connection is obvious: these creatures are in her body and then they come out. She knows they are part of her.

    But what about a father?

    I think it has to do with pain and perception of pain. Why do I consider my hand to be part of me? why do I draw my personal boundary approximately where my skin ends and the atmosphere begins? Probably because I have pain receptors in my body which provide feedback when any part of me is injured, pricked, pushed, etc. My brain tells me that is "part of me" because when something happens to that part, I am notified.

    Are these notifications restricted to neural networks and pain, or do the pheremones from my girlfriend (cat or human) count? If a male cat can tell on a pheremonal level that his woman is in duress, or simply that she is whining a lot, that affects him and she becomes part of his "sensory network". Part of his world.

    We do this with kittens, and parents, neighbors, friends. We do this with material items too. If I buy a chicken pie to nourish me, that's part of my world. When I smell it burning in the oven that is an alarm to my sensory network and it affects me. I feel a very mild form of pain when the chicken pie burns.

    A father is receptive to all of these communications. He hears the kittens cry, or the mother cry about their duress. These signals affect him, even if only on a primal level along the lines of "my woman isn't horny and that's a problem; I better get her and her kitties some food".

    Why do we draw our identity boundaries where we do? Why do some have more stringent requirements for these boundaries (non-sympathetic), while others very broad qualifications (very sympathetic). All good questions.

    Just my opinion... no science here.

    Don't know, but when I held my daughter in my arms the first time.....I felt a fierce protectiveness as did her Dad when he did. It was love at first sight.
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  26. #25  
    Forum Freshman EvolvedAtheist's Avatar
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    I think a lot of it has to do with our morality, derived from natural perception. Responses seem to relate to much of moral philosophies.
    “It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.” Charles Darwin
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  27. #26  
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    Let me expand on my previous post. From Wikipedia:

    Oxytocin (Oxt, /ˌɒksɨˈtoʊsɪn/) is a mammalian neurohypophysial hormone. Produced by the hypothalamus and stored and secreted by the posterior pituitary gland, oxytocin acts primarily as a neuromodulator in the brain.


    Oxytocin plays an important role in the neuroanatomy of intimacy, specifically in sexual reproduction, in particular during and after childbirth; its name, meaning "swift childbirth", comes from Greek ὀξύς, oksys "swift" and τόκος, tokos "birth." It is released in large amounts after distension of the cervix and uterus during labor, facilitating birth, maternal bonding, and, after stimulation of the nipples, lactation. Both childbirth and milk ejection result from positive feedback mechanisms.[1]


    Recent studies have begun to investigate oxytocin's role in various behaviors, including orgasm, social recognition, pair bonding, anxiety, and maternal behaviors.[2] For this reason, it is sometimes referred to as the "bonding hormone".
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  28. #27  
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    ok more oxytocin!!! *L*
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  29. #28  
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