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Thread: Can the brain be mantained alive apart from the body?

  1. #1 Can the brain be mantained alive apart from the body? 
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    Hi, i have a question that if you could answer i'll be thankful.

    The brain could be isolated from the body and be mantained alive? And ,if isolation from the body it's possible, the brain never dies? Or it is as mortal as a body?

    Thanks,

    Pedro (sorry if my english isn't very good, i'm from Argentina)

    P.S: I'm not talking about mind uploading, or copying the brain into a computer, i'm asking if the real (natural) brain, apart from the body could be mantained alive and if so, if it's mortal or not? Thanks!


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    The brain is definitely mortal: it's flesh and blood just like the rest of the human body.
    Keeping it alive would be difficult: supplying nutrients and maintaining blood flow wouldn't be easy.
    (Whether it's possible or not I don't know: medical science isn't my thing).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Teolar View Post
    The brain could be isolated from the body and be mantained alive? And ,if isolation from the body it's possible, the brain never dies? Or it is as mortal as a body?


    It can be maintained if you replicate all the functions of the body (oxygenation, blood cleaning, removal of wastes, addition of nutrients etc etc.) It is no more immortal than any other body part.
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    I don't think it has been successfully tried with a human but I'll bet it has with animals. If it has been done with a human brain, no one would publish the report because it would be legally murder. The problem is that once you detach it from the body, the body dies. The brain may be alive but it is isolated from all sensory input and can't communicate or effect its environment in any way. Reattaching it to sense organs or muscles can't be done at our level of technology. Nerves are not wires. They generally can't be reattached.
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    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    It seems like a moot question really because what would you do with it? The brain without a body is as useless as a body without a brain. Effectively the brain is a transducer of information from the environment and without the body to receive the information the brain can do nothing. Assuming there was such a thing as brain transplants I assume there would be a way to keep it viable for a short period of time just like there is for other organs now. But immortal - no.

    Questions like this I think come from the assumption that your 'you' is somehow only contained within your brain (a throwback of Descartes mind and body) but we are intelligent bodies ie one thing, not two and your 'you' is the head to toe whole package.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Well, given that there simply is not enough evidence for dualism, we're left with the mind and body being the same thing. Of all the data we collect, we find the 'you' IS the brain. If I were to cut off your arms, nothing drastic happens like a sudden loss in your ability to comprehend language. I define myself by my thoughts, emotions and memories, all of which are found in the brain, nowhere else.
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    Well, given that there simply is not enough evidence for dualism, we're left with the mind and body being the same thing. Of all the data we collect, we find the 'you' IS the brain. If I were to cut off your arms, nothing drastic happens like a sudden loss in your ability to comprehend language. I define myself by my thoughts, emotions and memories, all of which are found in the brain, nowhere else.
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    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curiosity View Post
    Well, given that there simply is not enough evidence for dualism, we're left with the mind and body being the same thing. Of all the data we collect, we find the 'you' IS the brain. If I were to cut off your arms, nothing drastic happens like a sudden loss in your ability to comprehend language. I define myself by my thoughts, emotions and memories, all of which are found in the brain, nowhere else.
    Except thoughts, memories and emotions are not physically 'found' in the brain - memories exist only when you are having one, emotions involve all of the body ie you cant be angry if you are laying down, the physical act has to accompany the feeling and thoughts are an emergent property of the brain. Even if we had the technology you couldnt take a piece of someone's brain and discover a specific thought held within that piece.

    Losing my arms may not affect my language area but you can be certain it will affect my psychological well-being and as V.S. Ramachandran has shown even phantom limbs are seen to have a physical basis in the brain.

    Nearly all mental illnesses are accompanied by physical difficulties - schizophrenics suffer weakness down one side of the body and dementia's and Parkinsonianisms are all accompanied by physical difficulties. It has even been shown that people who have cosmetic botox in their faces suffer an attenuation of emotion. (I'll find the references a bit later - I'm due to meet some friends soon).

    Descartes originally came up with dualism to free people from the tyranny of the church which up to that point had complete 'control' over people in that accepted wisdom then was that everything people did was gods will and so they had no autonomy whatsoever. And lets not forget he was a philosopher from 400 years ago and there arent too many ideas that weather the test of time in the face of advancing knowledge - with the exception of evolution. Considering humans as a mind and a body allowed people to think of themselves differently which is what good philosophy does.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Except thoughts, memories and emotions are not physically 'found' in the brain - memories exist only when you are having one,
    Incorrect:
    Thoughts are detectable zones of neuron activity within the brain.
    Memories are stored there. Where else do you think they come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    emotions involve all of the body ie you cant be angry if you are laying down,
    Nonsense! I am laying down at the moment and I certainly got angry reading such utter bilge.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Even if we had the technology you couldnt take a piece of someone's brain and discover a specific thought held within that piece. .
    More nonsense. Just google for some of the research with MRI studies going on at present.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Losing my arms may not affect my language area but you can be certain it will affect my psychological well-being and as V.S. Ramachandran has shown even phantom limbs are seen to have a physical basis in the brain.
    Which directly contradicts what you were saying earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Descartes originally came up with dualism to free people from the tyranny of the church which up to that point had complete 'control' over people in that accepted wisdom then was that everything people did was gods will and so they had no autonomy whatsoever. And lets not forget he was a philosopher from 400 years ago and there arent too many ideas that weather the test of time in the face of advancing knowledge - with the exception of evolution. Considering humans as a mind and a body allowed people to think of themselves differently which is what good philosophy does.
    So?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Incorrect:
    Thoughts are detectable zones of neuron activity within the brain.
    Memories are stored there. Where else do you think they come from?
    True, memories are partly physical by actual linked neurons, and partly a electrochemical pulse in the brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Nonsense! I am laying down at the moment and I certainly got angry reading such utter bilge.
    You shouldn't lie down and be angry. Increased stress, and lying down increases the pressure on the brain, which makes an intracranial hemorrhage about 3 times more likely to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    More nonsense. Just google for some of the research with MRI studies going on at present.
    I agree with lucidreaming on this. You can not know, ever, what a person knew, when you take a part of someone's brain. The entire brain, has to be active, alive, or it loses all logic pulses. There will still be data that links to events and memories stored, but this is unique for every person. To understand a part of the brain, you must evaluate/calibrate the whole, and you will slowly know the workings of this brain. All brains are unique, so you have to start from scratch with everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Which directly contradicts what you were saying earlier.
    Not exactly.. He meant it differently. Physical basis would mean in this case that your brain expects movement, and generates pulses to it. I think he means the motor skills. This is partly memory based (the memory of how much muscle you need to get your arm there, or here), not dreams or personal memories, this is a different part of the brain. But his earlier statement was incorrect, so i give you this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    So?
    Philosophy never goes for the great goals, philosophy is like the air in a balloon. Physically the balloon is the same, but without the air, the balloon is just a piece of rubber/latex. Philosophy teaches us about the gears of the universe (constants) without using numbers and formulas. Using words, to describe feelings, or faith, is philosophy.

    I'm expecting some smart comments back.. so gimme , correct me..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Except thoughts, memories and emotions are not physically 'found' in the brain - memories exist only when you are having one, emotions involve all of the body ie you cant be angry if you are laying down
    Yes, you can. Bed-ridden patients are often angry. Go to any VA hospital to prove this to yourself.
    Even if we had the technology you couldnt take a piece of someone's brain and discover a specific thought held within that piece.
    Actually you can. We can isolate which part of the brain causes (for example) the pain you feel when you see someone else punched in the face.
    Losing my arms may not affect my language area . . . .
    If memories are stored in your body - what memories are stored in your arms?
    but you can be certain it will affect my psychological well-being
    Well, so would losing a child. Doesn't mean that your memories are stored in your child.

    And lets not forget he was a philosopher from 400 years ago and there arent too many ideas that weather the test of time in the face of advancing knowledge - with the exception of evolution.
    ?? The theory of evolution is less than 400 years old.
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    I'm really surprised that this sort of stuff, is coming from LuciDreaming, considering they supposedly have a degree in psychology, and is 1 year into a clinical neurology program.
    On the point of being able to see people's thoughts, we are able to do that fMRI scan, but only when the brain is intact.
    My reasoning behind this, is a hierarchical nature of the brain. Whereby some neurons perform simple functions, such as representing a line at a certain angle. And above that, there is a neuron that incorporates many lines together, to form a basic geometrical shape, and way above that, there are neurons that incorporate geometric detail, and are able to recognise faces. So when you take a slice of the brain, you're essentially isolating it from all input and output neurons it would normally be connected to.

    Continuing on losing limbs, would people even care any more, if they could be replaced with advanced prosthetics, such that they integrate entirely with the existing neurons responsible for motor control? Ask a few people who have lost limbs, if they feel like a completely different person, from who they were before.

    On the physical difficulties experienced when mental illness is present, does that not merely establish that neuronal misfiring, and issues with biochemistry, have the same effect on body control, as they do on mental state? Rather than asserting that your body, apart from your brain, is therefore just as much you, simply because it also malfunctions when there are issues within the brain?

    And the philosophy part is irrelevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    You shouldn't lie down and be angry. ..
    Possibly not, but that is irrelevant to the point, which was to demonstrate that LucidDreaming was incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    I agree with lucidreaming on this. You can not know, ever, what a person knew, when you take a part of someone's brain. The entire brain, has to be active, alive, or it loses all logic pulses.
    I see that my remark was ambiguous. Of course the entire brain has to be functioning, but we can isolate certain thoughts within distinct zones and are beginning to be able to disentangle the meaning of some of them. Curiosity has commented on this also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    Philosophy never goes for the great goals, philosophy is like the air in a balloon. Physically the balloon is the same, but without the air, the balloon is just a piece of rubber/latex. Philosophy teaches us about the gears of the universe (constants) without using numbers and formulas. Using words, to describe feelings, or faith, is philosophy.

    I'm expecting some smart comments back.. so gimme , correct me..
    I still have no idea what that has to do with the topic.
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    Let's forward the discussion guys. So taking my brain from my body and putting in a vat is probably not going to work out that well, due to the large number of neurons in the brain that deal with sensory information. However, given the neuroplastic nature of the brain, is it therefore not possible to design a completely synthetic body, that sends electrical impulses to the brain like sensory neurons normally would, and should the brain not with time, be able to integrate with this synthetic body?
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    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    No supposedly about it Curiosity. And frankly I am quite surprised that you all seem to be arguing for the 'ghost in the machine' model of the mind/brain.

    We dont have a brain and nervous system for thinking - that is not its primary purpose. I move therefore I am - not I think therefore I am Daniel Wolpert: The real reason for brains | Talk Video | TED. Understanding the primary purpose of something then puts any investigations into it on a better footing. For example - if you had never seen a car before and thought it was a flying machine trying to understand how it worked from the machinery would lead you down many wrong paths. People generally fit their findings into their basic assumptions - if those are wrong, the findings will be wrong too.

    And agreed, a correction is needed in my post - what I should have said is it is much harder to be angry when you are lying down and still. They are learned behaviours that become reflex reactions which can be over-ridden by focus like most reflex reactions. See Schacter and Singer But emotions generally need the physical component that goes with them. Its the reason why people switch so easily between laughing and crying - because the physical actions and internal accompanying CNS actions are exactly the same. When people cry the eyes are screwed up and tearing, the lips are pulled back from the teeth, breathing comes in heavy bursts - the same physical actions that occur in laughing possibly with the exception of tears. What changes is the environmental cues that inform an individual whether they should be laughing or crying.

    Recognition of emotion in others and an individuals own experience of their emotions can be attenuated by the use of botox http://web.inflibnet.ac.in/ojs/index...File/1912/1616 Embodied Emotion Perception. Underpinning the 'I move therefore I am' view of the nervous system - the brain and the body need each other.

    And I think its incorrect to say the philosophical underpinnings of our current understandings of the mind and body are irrelevant. Our entire medical system is built on the philosophy of mind and body. Very rarely does Western medicine consider the impact of diseases of other body parts on the brain and CNS and its lacking in that regard. I cant think of any illness that doesnt cause some feeling of depression or low mood (something Western medicine traditionally associates with the mind). The brain and body influence each other equally. The human body is not two different things - the brain cannot exist without the body and the body cannot exist without the brain - to assume that a brain removed from a body and somehow kept alive in a jar would contain the person that used to inhabit the body is erroneous - without the body it is very unlikely you would be able to extract a specific thought that was unique to that person. See Read Montague, Daniel Wolpert and Steven Rose for evidence that memories exist in the synapses and specific neural circuits which have been calibrated by the specific actions of the body at the time those memories/thoughts are laid down.

    Your 'you' is a highly complex reciprocal interaction of brain and body - the body calibrates the brains neuronal circuits just as much as the brain calibrates the bodies movement. You all seem to be suggesting that it is an autonomous 'something' that can operate without the body and can exist without a body.

    I also happen to think there is no 'self' to speak of - that it is just as much a construct of the brain to assist in social functioning as vision is. See Bruce Hood - The Self Illusion.

    BTW - I did not say that evolution is a 400 year old idea - I said that there arent many ideas that stand the test of time with the exception of evolution.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    I cant edit so I just want to reword this portion because it doesnt accurately relate what I wanted to say - 'I also happen to think there is no 'self' to speak of - that it is just as much a construct of the brain to assist in social functioning as vision is. See Bruce Hood - The Self Illusion.'

    What I mean by that is:
    The vision you experience is a construct of the brain - (I can provide references but I wouldnt think there is anyone here that disagrees with that?) - I think the self is also a construct of the brain in the same way vision is.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teolar View Post
    The brain could be isolated from the body and be mantained alive?
    Yes, go to YouTube and search for: Russian dog experiment living without a body. I believe the video to be genuine. The video graphically depicts exactly what the search words indicate. WARNING It is not for the faint of heart or for people with sympathy toward animals.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    'I also happen to think there is no 'self' to speak of -
    Then how come we are all speaking of it?



    And completely off topic, while there are difficulties maintaining a brain when separated from its body, posts by some members on certain other threads in this forum suggest that it is quite possible for a body to function without a brain.
    jrmonroe and Markus Hanke like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teolar View Post
    The brain could be isolated from the body and be mantained alive?
    I don't think it can be done with currently available technology, but in principle it should be possible. However, think about what that would mean - an isolated brain without external stimuli would equate to 100% complete sensory deprivation, which is pretty much the cruellest form of torture I can possibly imagine. I believe ( correct me if I'm wrong ) that a mind trapped in such a disembodied brain would go quite mad fairly quickly.
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    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    'I also happen to think there is no 'self' to speak of -
    Then how come we are all speaking of it?



    And completely off topic, while there are difficulties maintaining a brain when separated from its body, posts by some members on certain other threads in this forum suggest that it is quite possible for a body to function without a brain.
    Marcus doesnt seem to think its off topic. And I mentioned it because of the OP's reference to immortality. Would the question of immortality have even arisen if we had been talking about the liver? Probably not.

    There may be other members suggesting it can happen but I dont think it can and I have provided references for my opinions. The idea that a disembodied brain would somehow have the person attached to it and suffering through lack of sensory deprivation is roundly refuted by the eminent neuroscientists I have provided references for in my previous post.

    The idea that you dont have a core self may be psychologically disturbing but that doesnt necessarily mean its wrong.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    The idea that a disembodied brain would somehow have the person attached to it and suffering through lack of sensory deprivation is roundly refuted by the eminent neuroscientists I have provided references for in my previous post.
    I disagree. To me, it is certainly not refuted by anything I can find on this thread; I think there is a very real possibility that a functional mind is being retained if a brain is removed and put on life support, in isolation. But since it isn't my area of expertise, I readily acknowledge that I might be wrong on this.
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    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    Well should it interest you Markus - David Eaglemans Incognito - the secret lives of the brain and Bruce Hoods the Self Illusion are both very interesting books on the topic of where the self resides and why it doesnt reside in the brain alone. Read Montagues Your brain is almost perfect touches on the subject as does VS Ramachandrans The telltale brain and Penrose's The emperors new mind touches on a quantum theory of the brain and the self as an emergent property of the physiological interactions within the entire nervous system.

    Its a very intuitive position to expect your 'you' to be in your brain because its the centre of your focus - nearly all people when asked where they think the self resides will point to a spot between the eyes and about an inch above the bridge of the nose because it seems obvious that thats where 'you' are. But there are plenty of neuroscientists now that think that is an erroneous idea.

    Its a very difficult thing to think about with any detachment because we are obviously all very attached to our inner selves and we live it every day so it feels like it must be so. But I think Bruce Hood has the best stance on it that I have seen.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    where the self resides and why it doesnt reside in the brain alone
    That may well be so, I can't say for lack of sufficient knowledge on the subject. However, that isn't quite what I was alluding to - I was really only interested in whether or not one could be conscious if the brain is disembodied. It is not necessary that all mental functions and the sense of self remains unaffected, it is only necessary for a state of consciousness to exist. Now, I am not an expert on the subject, but it would seem to me that the brain is the only part of the body which is of sufficient complexity to give rise to consciousness. So again, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea outright - disembodiment may destroy the "self", but that doesn't necessarily mean that you wouldn't be conscious and suffering as a result. In any case, it is not an experiment I would volunteer for, that's for certain.
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    I see - well I guess that would require definitions of consciousness and the self and where the boundaries are and I don't think there is any accepted agreement on those things really and would take us way off topic too.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    I see - well I guess that would require definitions of consciousness and the self and where the boundaries are and I don't think there is any accepted agreement on those things really and would take us way off topic too.
    I agree.
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