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Thread: Evolution, the environment and how we're all connected cont'd

  1. #1 Evolution, the environment and how we're all connected cont'd 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IndigoRed View Post
    A million birds of a certain species that is plagued by a disease breed and die until a random mutation is introduced into the gene pool that gives the species immunity. Seems a bit improbable don't you think?
    That isn't how it works, so the implausibility of your strawman argument is irrelevant.

    What you seem to be proposing is some form of Lamarckism, which was disproved many years ago.
    Truth has a way to emerge out of the abyss that those who wish to suppress it have thrown it in.
    technologyreview.com/news/411880/a-comeback-for-lamarckian-evolution/

    "Indeed, one of the studies found that a boost in the brain’s ability to rewire itself and a corresponding improvement in memory could be passed on. “This study is probably the first study to show there are transgenerational effects not only on behavior but on brain plasticity."

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The rest are driven to chase, kill and eat other weaker, vulnerable organisms.
    Is that how you would describe cows: chasing, killing and easting grass?
    Cow walks towards immobile grass (chase) instead of running because it's learned grass does not run, bites and chews grass (kills) and eats the grass. Same general concept, only seems different.


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  3. #2  
    exchemist
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTruthSeeker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IndigoRed View Post
    A million birds of a certain species that is plagued by a disease breed and die until a random mutation is introduced into the gene pool that gives the species immunity. Seems a bit improbable don't you think?
    That isn't how it works, so the implausibility of your strawman argument is irrelevant.

    What you seem to be proposing is some form of Lamarckism, which was disproved many years ago.


    Truth has a way to emerge out of the abyss that those who wish to suppress it have thrown it in.
    technologyreview.com/news/411880/a-comeback-for-lamarckian-evolution/

    "Indeed, one of the studies found that a boost in the brain’s ability to rewire itself and a corresponding improvement in memory could be passed on. “This study is probably the first study to show there are transgenerational effects not only on behavior but on brain plasticity."

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The rest are driven to chase, kill and eat other weaker, vulnerable organisms.
    Is that how you would describe cows: chasing, killing and easting grass?
    Cow walks towards immobile grass (chase) instead of running because it's learned grass does not run, bites and chews grass (kills) and eats the grass. Same general concept, only seems different.
    What abut the grass itself. It too evolved. By chasing and killing something, do you think?


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    I addressed that in the original thread:

    Eat and breed is pretty much the purpose of life. But aggression doesn't always come into it; in fact In would say it is pretty rare. Is a fruit tree aggressive? And many, perhaps most, organisms don't kill for their food.
    fine, aside from the organisms that passively intake their source of sustenance like organisms with chlorophyll and parasites. The rest are driven to chase, kill and eat other weaker, vulnerable organisms.
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    Forum Professor Zwirko's Avatar
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    When one decides to make sweeping genaralisations about life it's often a good idea to step back a little and realise that there is a lot more going on than that which is contained within the red dots:





    p.s.

    And that's just the Eukaryotes.
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    YES, I understand that most life on Earth are unicellular fungus-like organisms, HOORAY FOR THE WORLD, it is full of diverse microscopic creeper-things that we'll never see on a day-to-day basis without a microscope. They still capture their food in kinetically the same way - move towards food source, put food source in food-consuming structure, consume food.

    Now..I'll finish my point in the morning.
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTruthSeeker View Post
    Truth has a way to emerge out of the abyss that those who wish to suppress it have thrown it in.
    technologyreview.com/news/411880/a-comeback-for-lamarckian-evolution/
    While epigenetics is a very interesting area, it does not appear to be what you(?) were talking about. You (or IndigoRed if that was someone else) claimed that the individuals interactions with the environment and/or other species would change their genes. But from the article you cite:

    epigenetic changes–heritable changes that do not alter the sequence of DNA itself
    (emphasis added)

    Also, although there has been some research that has shown that epigenetic changes may affect more than one generation that has not been confirmed and is very controversial.

    Cow walks towards immobile grass (chase) instead of running because it's learned grass does not run, bites and chews grass (kills) and eats the grass. Same general concept, only seems different.
    So, if you are going to include that (and presumably plants thriving in an area with more light) as "aggressive" hunting, then your use of the words is pretty much meaningless. We are back to eat and breed as the purpose of life.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Well, always good to know someone learns something they weren't aware of!

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTruthSeeker View Post
    Truth has a way to emerge out of the abyss that those who wish to suppress it have thrown it in.
    technologyreview.com/news/411880/a-comeback-for-lamarckian-evolution/
    While epigenetics is a very interesting area, it does not appear to be what you(?) were talking about. You (or IndigoRed if that was someone else) claimed that the individuals interactions with the environment and/or other species would change their genes. But from the article you cite:


    epigenetic changes–heritable changes that do not alter the sequence of DNA itself
    (emphasis added)
    Well that's all well and good but I wasn't claiming it changes the gene, I merely asked a question whether experience (interpreted by the brain) can lead to changes in physical traits and long-term, transgenerational 'adaptations' in the specimen's lineage. I ask this because I swear I felt the critter below my floorboards 'pop' from its virulence towards me was defied and left challenged (i led it to think that i was vulnerable and a fearful target but then 'mocked' it later as i banged on the ground and tapped on it knowing it couldn't reach me - similar situation to how animals caged/trapped behind glass at zoos are antagonized by onlookers). I am convinced I had increased the creature's intelligence by making it problem solve and realize that thick barriers prevent it from being able to eat me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Cow walks towards immobile grass (chase) instead of running because it's learned grass does not run, bites and chews grass (kills) and eats the grass. Same general concept, only seems different.
    So, if you are going to include that (and presumably plants thriving in an area with more light) as "aggressive" hunting, then your use of the words is pretty much meaningless. We are back to eat and breed as the purpose of life.
    I say aggressive hunting as compared to no hunting at all and being stationary. Plants only seem to thrive in areas with more light because that's where the seeds can grow and survive - seeds and pollen are spread everywhere but not all of them have the necessary environment to sprout and grow. The fact that they tend to be where their food source (sunlight) is most prevalent isn't because they creep/move towards it but that the other areas have dead/failed plants. And purpose is a socio-economic concept created by humans as far as I can tell (what is your purpose for this call, what is your purpose for working here - stems from 'desire', which is a more primal concept shared by other animals; what is your purpose for eating only has one answer and so doesn't have the uncertainty and possibilities in other uses of the word). Purpose of life is to live as far as the other non-sentient beings on this planet are concerned. Our question of what the purpose of life is draws from other aspects of our human lives (sex being momentary bliss but lasting degradation of our soul, etc.)
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    You seem to be confusing evolution of a population with learning of an individual. Why?
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    Is this an epigenetic discussion?
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    TheTruthSeeker is banned as a sock puppet of IndigoRed.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    please fill out this survey for my ep on the genetic modification of the mosquito to prevent malaria,
    thanks it is very short and anonmous

    EP questionaire on the GM mosquito Survey
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  13. #12  
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    Im sorry
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    You seem to be confusing evolution of a population with learning of an individual. Why?
    Because I am The One.
    I'm sure you're used to doing science with modern institutionalized methods looking at entire systems and groups, but tell me if it makes sense that a genetic/inheritable change occurs and begins within an individual and is then introduced and spread in the gene pool of that species. Evolution and increased intelligence occurs with that special individual in the species. The chosen one. And he then sends forth a ripple of change and hopefully, progress.
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    Because my job is not yet finished. I wish to teach you all that every action we make affects our environment - in the LONG run (millions of years for organisms to evolve). Look at how we've domesticated canines. It only took a few thousand years to make them trust humans and learn that we are their inter-species ally and friend and that they should be loyal to us. I would like to amit that I sing to 2 daddy-long legs in my shower while high and noticed that one of them - he's a bro I can tell - dances and grooves to my singing. His lineage will be more inclined to the arts - a right brain heredity. Learn to live in harmony with nature and our fellow earthlings brothers and sisters, we are the only ones who know to shepherd them to ultimate sentience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndigoTypeFour View Post
    we are the only ones who know to shepherd them to ultimate sentience.
    Given the lack of sentience shown in this sentence:
    His lineage will be more inclined to the arts - a right brain heredity.
    it's going to be an uphill struggle.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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