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Thread: Killing Lab Rodents.

  1. #1 Killing Lab Rodents. 
    Moderator Moderator Cogito Ergo Sum's Avatar
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    PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) states on its website:
    "More than 100 million mice and rats are killed in U.S. laboratories every year. They are abused in everything from toxicology tests (in which they are slowly poisoned to death) to painful burn experiments to psychological experiments that induce terror, anxiety, depression, and helplessness."


    Whether or not PETA dramatizes the procedures that are performed before the lab rodents are killed, the need for a humane killing of lab animals is sought.
    Daniel Cressey reports in Nature News:
    "Killing research animals is one of the most unpleasant tasks in science, and it is imperative to do it as humanely as possible. But researchers who study animal welfare and euthanasia are growing increasingly concerned that widely used techniques are not the least painful and least stressful available. (...) Much of the debate centres on rodents, which make up the vast majority of research animals. Current techniques for killing them include inhalation methods — such as chambers that fill with carbon dioxide or anaesthetic gases [isoflurane, sevoflurane, etc.] — and injecting barbiturates. Physical methods include cervical dislocation (breaking of the neck), or decapitation with specialist rodent guillotines(...)."[sic]

    Carbon dioxide is a crucial point on the agenda, since a study (D. Wong et al., 2012) indicates that lab rats find CO2 highly aversive, whilst the gas has been used many years as a way to kill rats and mice. Physical methods are also questioned, because killing e.g. 500 lab rats is not practical and it cannot be applied to every animal (e.g. Danio rerio).

    Opponents of animal testing might state that abolishing animal testing solves the issue,
    but lab rodents are subjects in a variety of tests (clinical trials, genetic testing, etc.) and I am not aware of any artificial solutions that replace the use of rodents.

    Is killing lab rodents in order to contribute to the welfare of humankind acceptable and if so, which method would you choose?
    Personally, I am in favor of asphyxiation with anesthetic gases.


    Sources:
    Mice and Rats in Laboratories | PETA.org
    Why are Rats used in Animal Testing? (with pictures)
    Best way to kill lab animals sought : Nature News & Comment


    PS: The first source contains gruesome pictures of animal abuse. Be aware of this.


    Last edited by Cogito Ergo Sum; June 16th, 2014 at 05:55 AM.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  3. #2  
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    Unsurprisingly, I'm in favor of seeking alternatives. There are a few, but they tend to have issues related to them as well and it's always hard to break the status quo.

    One of the reasons I stayed out of biological sciences was my aversion to working with animals in lab or medical settings.

    That having been said, I don't want my mindset to be represented by PETA. They're more destructive to the cause of animal welfare than helpful.


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    While I'm against the inhumane things that are done to animals I must consider that without testing on animals humans wouldn't have any way to gather facts as to how medicines work. I do realize that computers today can and are helping in testing but they are limited many times and can only be somewhat helpful not completly helpful. I do hope the with newer computing that is being developed like AI we can one day stop testing products on animals but until that day comes I'm affraid humans must use animals to gain information to help them overcome diseases and other problems that afflict them.
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    did Joseph Mengele mistreat mice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    did Joseph Mengele mistreat mice?
    Don't know but he did mistreat humans for certain.
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  7. #6  
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    better a mouse?
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    Although testing has to be done I'm against all testing on animals because of the horrible things they do to small, defenceless creatures such as mice and rats. All animals should be treated equally when it comes down to serious matters like this. The tests they do are unnecessary and if they must kill the animals the should do it in a humane way.
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    I wouldn't be surprised to find the brilliant people in PETA to advocate all testing on humans instead of animals. I generally ignore anything they say. No, I don't condone the mistreatment of animals or anything like that, but some things have to be done, and, well, PETA seems to have a terrible approach to solving these issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    PETA seems to have a terrible approach to solving these issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    That having been said, I don't want my mindset to be represented by PETA. They're more destructive to the cause of animal welfare than helpful.

    I find it odd that an organisation that fights for animal rights, is criticized twice.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Developing the technology to conduct the vast majority of experiments on cellular components and through computer modelling is, I suspect, primarily a matter of economy. A secondary effect is the 'convenience' of the current system. Our descendents will likely only consider that we became civilised when we abandoned animal testing completely, looking at our current hypocritical times with shame.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    PETA seems to have a terrible approach to solving these issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    That having been said, I don't want my mindset to be represented by PETA. They're more destructive to the cause of animal welfare than helpful.

    I find it odd that an organisation that fights for animal rights, is criticized twice.
    You'd probably have a better understanding of why if you lived in the U.S.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    You'd probably have a better understanding of why if you lived in the U.S.

    To be honest, their articles are mostly elaborate argumenta ad misericordiam.
    I am skeptical about the sources of their claims and pictures.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Developing the technology to conduct the vast majority of experiments on cellular components and through computer modelling is, I suspect, primarily a matter of economy.

    If only the (U.S.) government would spend more money on research than on defense...
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    You'd probably have a better understanding of why if you lived in the U.S.

    To be honest, their articles are mostly elaborate argumenta ad misericordiam.
    I am skeptical about the sources of their claims and pictures.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Developing the technology to conduct the vast majority of experiments on cellular components and through computer modelling is, I suspect, primarily a matter of economy.

    If only the (U.S.) government would spend more money on research than on defense...
    Wouldn't that be nice! Now, what's the excuse for the other 190+ countries in the world?
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    How many of you here truly have apathy directed towards lab animals? Trillions of various kinds of animals die due to the attrition of nature as thery do in laboratories. Sure, it's nice to protect eagles, but what the hell is really gained by protecting lab animals? Would you rather live under the threat of your own pending death resulting from ingestion of some synthetic chemical, being a sweetener, modifier, thickener, colorant, weight additive, or other shit making a product more attractive to the buyer? Worry and wonder?

    Face it. We humans have been backed into a corner.......we are not sure who to believe, we want to take advantage of life-extending discoveries, but don't know which ones to believe, have hopes and yearn that less money be spent frivoulisly.................
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    If people can be this cruel to animals, any solution is a good one. PETA is just trying to make a bad situation better and I can't see how anyone can fail to notice that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    I find it odd that an organisation that fights for animal rights, is criticized twice.
    If only that's what they did. They are hypocritical, reactionary, and give a bad name to people who support animal welfare. Sometimes, they appear to be one step away from turning into something like the ELF.

    I file them with global warming alarmists who would rather get people riled up and make the news than work toward practical problem solving.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geek squad View Post
    If people can be this cruel to animals, any solution is a good one. PETA is just trying to make a bad situation better and I can't see how anyone can fail to notice that.
    I don't support their approach of decrying the most visible cases to get press instead of working hand in hand with legislators and private facilities to come up with practical solutions to problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    How many of you here truly have apathy directed towards lab animals? Trillions of various kinds of animals die due to the attrition of nature as thery do in laboratories.
    Well, we're all going to die eventually, so why bother curing diseases or getting upset when a child dies of cancer? Just because animals die in horrible ways in nature doesn't justify our killing them through lab testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Sure, it's nice to protect eagles, but what the hell is really gained by protecting lab animals?
    It's about ensuring the welfare of every life form we can. It's about not being the cause of more animal deaths than we have to be. I personally consider those animals' lives to be just as valuable as mine. I would fight to protect them from unnatural pain and death for the same reasons I would fight to protect a human from the same fate.

    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Would you rather live under the threat of your own pending death resulting from ingestion of some synthetic chemical, being a sweetener, modifier, thickener, colorant, weight additive, or other shit making a product more attractive to the buyer? Worry and wonder?
    No. That is why I support seeking alternatives to animal testing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    Now, what's the excuse for the other 190+ countries in the world?

    If I only knew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I don't support their approach of decrying the most visible cases to get press instead of working hand in hand with legislators and private facilities to come up with practical solutions to problems.

    Well, that could explain why almost every PETA web page is filled with horrible pictures.
    It seems as their approach is basically an argumentum ad misericordiam.
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    Well, we're all going to die eventually, so why bother curing diseases or getting upset when a child dies of cancer? Just because animals die in horrible ways in nature doesn't justify our killing them through lab testing.
    I agree completely, just because animas die in hideous was in nature doesn't mean we can kill them in gruesome and painful ways such as we have seen from particular universities mentioned in the link in Cogito Ergo Sum's introductory post.
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    I wouldn't mind keeping a rodent as a pet after an experiment was over, if it wasn't exposed to an infectious disease and didn't need to have its brain or any other organ dissected.

    Wouldn't be so bad to have a rat or mouse bred for obesity or diabetes or with a weird personality trait, or a control rodent.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Well, that could explain why almost every PETA web page is filled with horrible pictures.
    It seems as their approach is basically an argumentum ad misericordiam.
    Exactly.

    It's like those ASPCA commercials that beg for money while a Sarah Mclaughlin song plays to images of abused animals. I get that appeals to emotional fragility often affect your target audience the most, but do they create workable paths to solutions? I don't believe so.

    They need to stop trying to burn bridges by painting these companies and labs as evil forces we have to stop and start working with them to give them better options. If you show a company a way to protect animal welfare and it saves them money, they will jump all over it. If you just give them some sob story about how hurting animals is mean, they will ignore you.
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    The irony being that PETA got caught red handed euthanizing animals in shelters after claiming that they never do that. A lot of them, by the way, not one here and there that really needed it. They couldn't find homes for them so they killed them the same way other shelters do.
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  25. #24  
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    I understand what PETA are trying to do however it's the methods they use that make them like every other organisation, there's always a catch. In the end PETA know that hurting animals is wrong but they don't care because all organisations do things for their personal gain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    The irony being that PETA got caught red handed euthanizing animals in shelters after claiming that they never do that. A lot of them, by the way, not one here and there that really needed it. They couldn't find homes for them so they killed them the same way other shelters do.

    Whilst I was checking that claim on Wikipedia, I stumbled upon this:
    "The CCF [Center for Consumer Freedom] claimed in a press release that "(a)n official report filed by PETA itself shows that the animal rights group put to death nearly every dog, cat, and other pet it took in for adoption in 2006." (...) A spokesperson for the Virginia Department of Agriculture responded that "PETA will basically take anything that comes through the door, and other shelters won't do that," and that it had considered changing PETA's status from "shelter" to "euthanasia clinic."(...)"


    It seems that you are right.


    Source:
    People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  27. #26  
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    A I said in my earlier post, all organisations are the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geek squad View Post
    In the end PETA know that hurting animals is wrong but they don't care because all organisations do things for their personal gain.
    Quote Originally Posted by geek squad View Post
    A I said in my earlier post, all organisations are the same.

    Should we, in your opinion, support those organisations?
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Should we, in your opinion, support those organisations?

    Well as I also earlier said, I understand what PETA are trying to do so in that way we should support them but linking in with my two last posts, with all orginisations theres a catch. PETA's hypocritical manner is what makes them like everything else, they make pages about being cruel to lab rodents but meanwhile they're euthanizing animals in shelters. With that in mind I think that maybe we should pay more attention to detail and really think who and what we are really supporting instead of judging the book by its cover and rushing in blindly.
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    I would favor physical killing of lab animals just because chemical methods may introduce chemical changes in the carcases which limit the usefulness of the data.

    I have near zero respect for PETA. I'll give an example of why: I live near a town where public nudity is perfectly legal. A PETA agent hired two attractive young women to pose nude near the center of town with a sign opposing the use of fur in clothing. Local police were called because of the traffic jam that resulted. They found the fully clothed agent with the nude models and asked him why he was wearing clothing. When he responded, " Why should I be nude? no one wants to look at a naked guy." The police arrested him for creating a public nusence. The nude models were not arrested, they had broken no law.

    The problem with PETA is that they don't get the difference between an act of conscience and a publicity stunt, which however was perfectly clear to small town Vermont police officers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sealeaf View Post
    I would favor physical killing of lab animals just because chemical methods may introduce chemical changes in the carcases which limit the usefulness of the data.

    That is an interesting point, although it would be a slow process if you have to kill a large group of test animals one by one.
    Unless you come up with a method that is humane and quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sealeaf View Post
    I have near zero respect for PETA. I'll give an example of why: I live near a town where public nudity is perfectly legal. A PETA agent hired two attractive young women to pose nude near the center of town with a sign opposing the use of fur in clothing. Local police were called because of the traffic jam that resulted. They found the fully clothed agent with the nude models and asked him why he was wearing clothing. When he responded, " Why should I be nude? no one wants to look at a naked guy." The police arrested him for creating a public nusence. The nude models were not arrested, they had broken no law.

    The problem with PETA is that they don't get the difference between an act of conscience and a publicity stunt, which however was perfectly clear to small town Vermont police officers.

    I went to the PETA website. It seems that you are referring to the Anti-Skins Campaign.
    Although it does not contain the story that you posted, I can comprehend why such actions sometimes cause resistance from the public.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

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    If the PETA protesters had showed up with their middle-aged, unathletic, executive staff walking around in the buff it would have been an act of conscience and the police would have cut them slack if a traffic jam had resulted. But the fact that they HIRED models and did not demonstrate any awareness of the conscience issue that is supposed to be at the heart of their orgaization, shows them for what they are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    I went to the PETA website.
    While you are there, be sure to visit the part about "sea kittens."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    I went to the PETA website.
    While you are there, be sure to visit the part about "sea kittens."

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    I say, just do it humanely. When we had mice the exterminator put sticky pad things. We found one mouse struggling and, ok, I don't want a mouse in my house, but then again, that was cruel. My husband mashed it with the shovel.

    I don't see many adopting them as "pets" frankly.

    So if you need to do the dirty deed do it.

    Those rats and mice save people's LIVES!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    It seems as their approach is basically an argumentum ad misericordiam.
    As it should be. The issue entirely depends on human empathy, the problem is just what is offending human empathy. So, like the stink of a summer dumpster it's not really the trash or the miasma arising from it theat's the problem - it's our consciously whiffing it. If we didn't know, it wouldn't be a problem. I agree with the majority in believing there's only one sane reaction to animal suffering, but however strong my gut feelings - and distrust of anyone who lacks the sentiment - I'm not going to cloud the issue by pretending it starts from moral considerations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    We found one mouse struggling and, .......
    I have seen mice stuck to those things for days, flesh torn from their legs, squealing like crazy. Disgusting contrivance. jocular
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    We found one mouse struggling and, .......
    I have seen mice stuck to those things for days, flesh torn from their legs, squealing like crazy. Disgusting contrivance. jocular
    I agree. Refuse to use it. It's disgusting and wrong.
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    Amen to thatIf rodents need to be killed I don't see why someone can't just find a humane way to do it.
    "Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity....
    ...and I'm not so sure about the universe.":Albert Einstein.
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    I don't think we should be using Mice & Rats in our labaratory experiements.

    We should use members of PETA instead.

    For (evil) Science!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    I don't think we should be using Mice & Rats in our labaratory experiements.

    We should use members of PETA instead.

    For (evil) Science!
    That is funny...have a GF who is PETA but she loves steak! ....I tease her all the time..about eating that poor little cow.

    If a mouse dies and a person lives....on a more serious note, what is more important?
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    talking to scientists on an australian forum over the years any of them who wanted to use animals in studies had to have a damn good reason for it to get it passed by an ethics committee. most of the time they would design a study so they didn't have to. much easier.
    Sometimes it is better not knowing than having an answer that may be wrong.
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    As I said in my first post, I know testing has to be done but if they are going to harm animals in the process it's no better then experimenting humans. However people seem to think that we're better than animals and that testing on humans is 'inhumane' even though it's the same things that are being done to defenceless animals who have no choice in the matter.
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    Sorry...but if a rat or a cat had to die and could have saved my MIL, my BIL, my nephew or my best friend....GO FOR IT!

    And to think about this in another perspective.....As my Korean Dr. of Math, among other's says....In Korea, we have no problem with rats, dogs or cats.

    We ate them.
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    Does anyone really care about this? China is covered in smog and pollution because everyone wants a new iPhone. billions of animals are currently suffering from the toxic waste produced to secure your precious phone.

    Millions and millions of animals are butchered each year after living in shit conditions just so you can have a big mac.

    We let people die. We torture people. We make people miserable. We force people to live in conditions that are not acceptable for lab animals.


    But boohoo if someone uses a few mice to do research on understanding the world we live in.
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    A local zoo could probably make some use of surplus lab animals, particularly if they have a reptile display.
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geek squad View Post
    As I said in my first post, I know testing has to be done but if they are going to harm animals in the process it's no better then experimenting humans.
    Are you kidding? Harming a mouse is no better than harming a human? If you have your house exterminated, you should go to jail for life? How about a fish? If you hit one with a boat propeller, would that be manslaughter?
    However people seem to think that we're better than animals and that testing on humans is 'inhumane'
    We test on humans all the time. We use animals first to keep the body count down.
    Last edited by billvon; December 13th, 2013 at 03:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    better a mouse?
    False dichotomy.
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    perhaps it would be best to make the death as long as possible. if the death is short, the mouse will be dead, and thats it. would having no sense at all, and being dead, be better than being alive, even if you have to go through pain?
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    Answer to the OP. No, I do not approve of using animals in experiments.

    As for PETA, like many I have mixed views. They put up a billboard and the right wing whackos react in force...'My child shouldn't see such things'. McDonalds and there ilk spend billions in advertising 24/7 aimed at kids to eat crap food (nuggets, etc.) and nobody says anything. kFC pushes hormone laden crap on kids. A whole industry vs PETA. It's comical when parents get outraged at PETA. It's like an army of a thousand of business Goliaths against a couple of nerdy whackos.

    PETA is often a shrill joke but the meat pushers are destroying the health of a good chunk of young people.

    Then again, few care about a crappy diet until little Johnny gets diabetes, hubby gets prostate cancer or mom gets breast cancer. Then they want the medical profession to step in with miracle cures...probably made by animal testing. Suddenly all those ribs and chicken wings don't seem so great.
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    I vote for the same way they put our beloved pets down, intravenous anaesthetic: very high dose of pentobarbital or sodium thiopental.

    Wikipedia:

    Observers generally describe the method as leading to a quick and peaceful death.


    Also, I would not base any observations on what PETA says. They are surely a destructive and misguided group that has also been caught blatantly lying and actually causing more animal death than shelters while at the same time protesting outside of said shelters for putting down animals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    We found one mouse struggling and, .......
    I have seen mice stuck to those things for days, flesh torn from their legs, squealing like crazy. Disgusting contrivance. jocular
    I agree. Refuse to use it. It's disgusting and wrong.
    I simply place a bucket along the cabinets with a piece of cardstock paper on top, on top of the paper is a bit of food. Mouse goes for food, mouse falls into bucket, mouse gets relocated outside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    A local zoo could probably make some use of surplus lab animals, particularly if they have a reptile display.
    You can have all of my Madascar Gecko's!!!! GO FOR IT!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Answer to the OP. No, I do not approve of using animals in experiments.

    As for PETA, like many I have mixed views. They put up a billboard and the right wing whackos react in force...'My child shouldn't see such things'. McDonalds and there ilk spend billions in advertising 24/7 aimed at kids to eat crap food (nuggets, etc.) and nobody says anything. kFC pushes hormone laden crap on kids. A whole industry vs PETA. It's comical when parents get outraged at PETA. It's like an army of a thousand of business Goliaths against a couple of nerdy whackos.

    PETA is often a shrill joke but the meat pushers are destroying the health of a good chunk of young people.

    Then again, few care about a crappy diet until little Johnny gets diabetes, hubby gets prostate cancer or mom gets breast cancer. Then they want the medical profession to step in with miracle cures...probably made by animal testing. Suddenly all those ribs and chicken wings don't seem so great.
    My husband grew up on a healthy diet....and I have always made all my food from scratch.....yet my husband has prostate cancer.....sometimes it's genetics.....and don't get me wrong..I do NOT ADVOCATE FAST FOOD DIETS! I will eat it when I have no options...and that has happened...but my kids had MccD's maybe 3 times growing up.....and only when travelling long distances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyoko View Post
    I vote for the same way they put our beloved pets down, intravenous anaesthetic: very high dose of pentobarbital or sodium thiopental.

    Wikipedia:

    Observers generally describe the method as leading to a quick and peaceful death.


    Also, I would not base any observations on what PETA says. They are surely a destructive and misguided group that has also been caught blatantly lying and actually causing more animal death than shelters while at the same time protesting outside of said shelters for putting down animals.
    We treat our pets better than our fellow humans when it comes to euthanzia IMHO
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    shlunka...mice are family oriented...I want them dead...not relocated......*chuckle* no offense intended.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Answer to the OP. No, I do not approve of using animals in experiments.As for PETA, like many I have mixed views. They put up a billboard and the right wing whackos react in force...'My child shouldn't see such things'. McDonalds and there ilk spend billions in advertising 24/7 aimed at kids to eat crap food (nuggets, etc.) and nobody says anything. kFC pushes hormone laden crap on kids. A whole industry vs PETA. It's comical when parents get outraged at PETA. It's like an army of a thousand of business Goliaths against a couple of nerdy whackos.PETA is often a shrill joke but the meat pushers are destroying the health of a good chunk of young people.Then again, few care about a crappy diet until little Johnny gets diabetes, hubby gets prostate cancer or mom gets breast cancer. Then they want the medical profession to step in with miracle cures...probably made by animal testing. Suddenly all those ribs and chicken wings don't seem so great.
    My husband grew up on a healthy diet....and I have always made all my food from scratch.....yet my husband has prostate cancer.....sometimes it's genetics.....and don't get me wrong..I do NOT ADVOCATE FAST FOOD DIETS! I will eat it when I have no options...and that has happened...but my kids had MccD's maybe 3 times growing up.....and only when travelling long distances.
    That's unfortunate. Anyone can have an issue regardless of lifestyle.As for healthy diet, a lot depends on one's definition. Kids eating hot dogs and drinking milk is not a healthy diet IMO. Hamburgers on the BBQ are not a healthy diet even when topped with veggies. But, everyone has their own experience. I see the big difference in people not so much in earlier years but after age 50 or so. My girlfriend and I are appoaching 60 in good health, no issues, no meds. Good vital signs. We could drop dead tomorrow but we take dance lessons on Saturday and will probably survive quite fine. Next time in Maui we'll visit our favorite beach (wink) and not hide behind a towel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    shlunka...mice are family oriented...I want them dead...not relocated......*chuckle* no offense intended.
    I get a mouse in the house now and then. I'm always going to set a trap but can't do it. I get a rubber boot and lay it flat. They will eat a bit of bait around the entrance and then run into the boot when they are spooked. I then take the mouse and release it outside far away. (Then it's probably eaten by an owl or mink!)
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    What is ironic about PETA is that their leader is only alive because she injects daily insulin, which was first produced from pigs and cows and by experimenting on animals. Only through animal experimentation have we come up with ways to keep that nasty bitch alive today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    A local zoo could probably make some use of surplus lab animals, particularly if they have a reptile display.
    You can have all of my Madascar Gecko's!!!! GO FOR IT!
    I was implying that the surplus lab animals (rodents) could be feed to the reptiles. If your geckos are large enough they might eat rodents. How many rats to make a lion snack?
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Answer to the OP. No, I do not approve of using animals in experiments.As for PETA, like many I have mixed views. They put up a billboard and the right wing whackos react in force...'My child shouldn't see such things'. McDonalds and there ilk spend billions in advertising 24/7 aimed at kids to eat crap food (nuggets, etc.) and nobody says anything. kFC pushes hormone laden crap on kids. A whole industry vs PETA. It's comical when parents get outraged at PETA. It's like an army of a thousand of business Goliaths against a couple of nerdy whackos.PETA is often a shrill joke but the meat pushers are destroying the health of a good chunk of young people.Then again, few care about a crappy diet until little Johnny gets diabetes, hubby gets prostate cancer or mom gets breast cancer. Then they want the medical profession to step in with miracle cures...probably made by animal testing. Suddenly all those ribs and chicken wings don't seem so great.
    My husband grew up on a healthy diet....and I have always made all my food from scratch.....yet my husband has prostate cancer.....sometimes it's genetics.....and don't get me wrong..I do NOT ADVOCATE FAST FOOD DIETS! I will eat it when I have no options...and that has happened...but my kids had MccD's maybe 3 times growing up.....and only when travelling long distances.
    That's unfortunate. Anyone can have an issue regardless of lifestyle.As for healthy diet, a lot depends on one's definition. Kids eating hot dogs and drinking milk is not a healthy diet IMO. Hamburgers on the BBQ are not a healthy diet even when topped with veggies. But, everyone has their own experience. I see the big difference in people not so much in earlier years but after age 50 or so. My girlfriend and I are appoaching 60 in good health, no issues, no meds. Good vital signs. We could drop dead tomorrow but we take dance lessons on Saturday and will probably survive quite fine. Next time in Maui we'll visit our favorite beach (wink) and not hide behind a towel.
    Well wave at me! *laughing* and stop over Big Island...and I'll show you another beach! *laughing*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    shlunka...mice are family oriented...I want them dead...not relocated......*chuckle* no offense intended.
    I get a mouse in the house now and then. I'm always going to set a trap but can't do it. I get a rubber boot and lay it flat. They will eat a bit of bait around the entrance and then run into the boot when they are spooked. I then take the mouse and release it outside far away. (Then it's probably eaten by an owl or mink!)
    we have neither....owl or mink
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    A local zoo could probably make some use of surplus lab animals, particularly if they have a reptile display.
    You can have all of my Madascar Gecko's!!!! GO FOR IT!
    I was implying that the surplus lab animals (rodents) could be feed to the reptiles. If your geckos are large enough they might eat rodents. How many rats to make a lion snack?

    *laughing*...they aren't big enough...but they poop EVERYWHERE...and laying an egg on my bed was the last straw.....I catch them....when I can and THROW them out the door
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Answer to the OP. No, I do not approve of using animals in experiments.

    As for PETA, like many I have mixed views. They put up a billboard and the right wing whackos react in force...'My child shouldn't see such things'. McDonalds and there ilk spend billions in advertising 24/7 aimed at kids to eat crap food (nuggets, etc.) and nobody says anything. kFC pushes hormone laden crap on kids. A whole industry vs PETA. It's comical when parents get outraged at PETA. It's like an army of a thousand of business Goliaths against a couple of nerdy whackos.

    PETA is often a shrill joke but the meat pushers are destroying the health of a good chunk of young people.

    Then again, few care about a crappy diet until little Johnny gets diabetes, hubby gets prostate cancer or mom gets breast cancer. Then they want the medical profession to step in with miracle cures...probably made by animal testing. Suddenly all those ribs and chicken wings don't seem so great.

    Your disapproval of experimenting on animals leads me to the question which alternatives scientists could use to maintain clinical and other investigations.

    Quote Originally Posted by pyoko View Post
    I vote for the same way they put our beloved pets down, intravenous anaesthetic: very high dose of pentobarbital or sodium thiopental.

    Intravenous injections are indeed used (e.g. barbiturates), but applying such a method would demand time and effort, especially if you have e.g. 200 lab animals to kill.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    I don't approve of killing rodents in labs. I think it's morally wrong. Yet, I'd probably do it myself. I also eat meat (far too lazy to stop), so I'm a hypocrite. Ethical behaviour is far from easy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Answer to the OP. No, I do not approve of using animals in experiments.As for PETA, like many I have mixed views. They put up a billboard and the right wing whackos react in force...'My child shouldn't see such things'. McDonalds and there ilk spend billions in advertising 24/7 aimed at kids to eat crap food (nuggets, etc.) and nobody says anything. kFC pushes hormone laden crap on kids. A whole industry vs PETA. It's comical when parents get outraged at PETA. It's like an army of a thousand of business Goliaths against a couple of nerdy whackos.PETA is often a shrill joke but the meat pushers are destroying the health of a good chunk of young people.Then again, few care about a crappy diet until little Johnny gets diabetes, hubby gets prostate cancer or mom gets breast cancer. Then they want the medical profession to step in with miracle cures...probably made by animal testing. Suddenly all those ribs and chicken wings don't seem so great.
    My husband grew up on a healthy diet....and I have always made all my food from scratch.....yet my husband has prostate cancer.....sometimes it's genetics.....and don't get me wrong..I do NOT ADVOCATE FAST FOOD DIETS! I will eat it when I have no options...and that has happened...but my kids had MccD's maybe 3 times growing up.....and only when travelling long distances.
    That's unfortunate. Anyone can have an issue regardless of lifestyle.As for healthy diet, a lot depends on one's definition. Kids eating hot dogs and drinking milk is not a healthy diet IMO. Hamburgers on the BBQ are not a healthy diet even when topped with veggies. But, everyone has their own experience. I see the big difference in people not so much in earlier years but after age 50 or so. My girlfriend and I are appoaching 60 in good health, no issues, no meds. Good vital signs. We could drop dead tomorrow but we take dance lessons on Saturday and will probably survive quite fine. Next time in Maui we'll visit our favorite beach (wink) and not hide behind a towel.
    Well wave at me! *laughing* and stop over Big Island...and I'll show you another beach! *laughing*
    Ha! There is another beach I've camped and 'sunbathed' on across from the Big Island. The first time I was there I saw some weird lights ...had no idea the Big Island was in that direction. It was spooky. Never been to the Big Island. We Canadians have only colonized Maui.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Intravenous injections are indeed used (e.g. barbiturates), but applying such a method would demand time and effort, especially if you have e.g. 200 lab animals to k

    The right thing would be to take the time and effort, then. It is not unrealistic. One person can inject 200 animals. It would not take that long compared to how many hours results the animals gave.
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    Answer to the OP. No, I do not approve of using animals in experiments.As for PETA, like many I have mixed views. They put up a billboard and the right wing whackos react in force...'My child shouldn't see such things'. McDonalds and there ilk spend billions in advertising 24/7 aimed at kids to eat crap food (nuggets, etc.) and nobody says anything. kFC pushes hormone laden crap on kids. A whole industry vs PETA. It's comical when parents get outraged at PETA. It's like an army of a thousand of business Goliaths against a couple of nerdy whackos.PETA is often a shrill joke but the meat pushers are destroying the health of a good chunk of young people.Then again, few care about a crappy diet until little Johnny gets diabetes, hubby gets prostate cancer or mom gets breast cancer. Then they want the medical profession to step in with miracle cures...probably made by animal testing. Suddenly all those ribs and chicken wings don't seem so great.
    My husband grew up on a healthy diet....and I have always made all my food from scratch.....yet my husband has prostate cancer.....sometimes it's genetics.....and don't get me wrong..I do NOT ADVOCATE FAST FOOD DIETS! I will eat it when I have no options...and that has happened...but my kids had MccD's maybe 3 times growing up.....and only when travelling long distances.
    That's unfortunate. Anyone can have an issue regardless of lifestyle.As for healthy diet, a lot depends on one's definition. Kids eating hot dogs and drinking milk is not a healthy diet IMO. Hamburgers on the BBQ are not a healthy diet even when topped with veggies. But, everyone has their own experience. I see the big difference in people not so much in earlier years but after age 50 or so. My girlfriend and I are appoaching 60 in good health, no issues, no meds. Good vital signs. We could drop dead tomorrow but we take dance lessons on Saturday and will probably survive quite fine. Next time in Maui we'll visit our favorite beach (wink) and not hide behind a towel.
    Well wave at me! *laughing* and stop over Big Island...and I'll show you another beach! *laughing*
    Ha! There is another beach I've camped and 'sunbathed' on across from the Big Island. The first time I was there I saw some weird lights ...had no idea the Big Island was in that direction. It was spooky. Never been to the Big Island. We Canadians have only colonized Maui.
    We just passed a new law that Canadians are limited to Big Island. My Canadian friends were the last ones allowed in! *chuckle*
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