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Thread: Sea Horses breeding paradox.

  1. #1 Sea Horses breeding paradox. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I always thought that one of the most important characteristics of egg cells is their immobility. If they are transferred from female to male as in sea horses could they still be considered as such?
    Immobility is not a characteristic of eggs: they are immotile - as in "not capable of independent movement".


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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Still, how they defined that this is exactly type of sexual cell of animal and not carrying offsprings in body that defines gender?
    There are many ways to differentiate eggs from sperm.
    Eggs are metabolically active. Sperm are not.
    Sperm are motile. Eggs are not.
    Sperm are smaller than eggs.
    There are also differences in their structure - but that gets very technical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Is it somehow biologically proved or still a matter of disputes?
    When was it a matter of dispute?
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:58 PM.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    Male and female are labels we invented to describe what we were observing, like a truck load of labels categories, the word is not reality but a simplification that cuts down on explanations but can lead to confusion when we think the label is a reality (life, etc)
    Or when we encounter a reality that does not match the arbitrary label we created
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I always thought that any creature which carries offsprings inside its own body is female by definition.
    Why have you always thought that?
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    It's the chromosomes (and how they're expressed) that determines whether an individual member of a species is male or female. That leads to whether the individual produces sperm or eggs for reproduction - male=sperm, female=ova.

    How sperm and ova get together, and how the resulting fertilised eggs are handled, varies so much from species to species that "carrying young inside the body" is totally inadequate for a scientific definition of male/female. It's ok for a general, non-technical presumption that we can expect, but differences are entirely to be expected.
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Could we argue in this case that definition of male/female is quite different for lower creatures such as fish from higher such as mammals?
    Why have a different definition of male and female for "lower" creatures?
    We already have various ways to identify males and females (see previous posts).

    Why is that not good enough?
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    The male does into have the eggs in its body, he carries them in a specialized pouch on his stomach. The eggs are transferred there by the female via her ovipositer. The male does not grow new egg, but rather generates sperm. There has never been any question of if they are male or not.
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    There has never been any question of if they are male or not.
    I always thought that every creature which grow offsprings inside of its stomach from the fertilisation moment to their release into environment is a female.
    Nope. As I said, the eggs are held in a pouch, on NOT in, the stomach, the eggs are GROWN initially in the female. Just as it is the male of a number of birds that incubate the eggs, even though the females are the ones that produce them and several amphibians incubate their eggs on their backs in gel masses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    There has never been any question of if they are male or not.
    I always thought that every creature which grow offsprings inside of its stomach from the fertilisation moment to their release into environment is a female.
    Nope. As I said, the eggs are held in a pouch, on NOT in, the stomach, the eggs are GROWN initially in the female. Just as it is the male of a number of birds that incubate the eggs, even though the females are the ones that produce them and several amphibians incubate their eggs on their backs in gel masses.
    Dang!! NOW when i get home have to go to the Sea Horse Farm and check it out myself, upclose and personal!
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 08:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    sea horse grow egg-cells in her body
    Females produce eggs.
    It doesn't matter what happens to the eggs afterwards; they are still eggs produced by females.
    That is one of the ways we differentiate between males and females.

    Why are the existing definitions of male and female not good enough for you?
    Do you really have so much difficulty in accepting that you are wrong?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Nope. As I said, the eggs are held in a pouch, on NOT in, the stomach, the eggs are GROWN initially in the female. Just as it is the male of a number of birds that incubate the eggs
    I do not see principal difference between pouch and stomach it effectively means "inside of body". And they are supplied with nutrients through placenta-like mechanism. Cannot be compared to birds nesting where eggs are nested completely out of body. Female sea horse grow egg-cells in her body but they are fertilized only after they get inside of male's body.
    I think the important question at this point is what exactly is the source of your definition for female? It is not one that has been used in at least a century I think.
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    I think the important question at this point is what exactly is the source of your definition for female? It is not one that has been used in at least a century I think.
    Sorry for my ignorance. My definition of female was based on most visible one: female carries child inside her body and gives birth. I didn't know that difference between egg cells and spermatozoids is by far larger than between somebody who carries child and gives birth and somebody who doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by Stanley514 I always thought that any creature which carries offsprings inside its own body is female by definition.
    Why have you always thought that?
    I am not the person who started this thread, but I think I can answer that. When you ask what is the DEFINITION of male and female, you want a precise, biologically specific answer. The only one most people can think of is that females are pregnant and give birth. Using this definition, the "male" sea horses are actually female since they give birth, but what about them makes them male?
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticorncob28 View Post
    Originally Posted by Stanley514 I always thought that any creature which carries offsprings inside its own body is female by definition.
    Why have you always thought that?
    I am not the person who started this thread, but I think I can answer that. When you ask what is the DEFINITION of male and female, you want a precise, biologically specific answer. The only one most people can think of is that females are pregnant and give birth. Using this definition, the "male" sea horses are actually female since they give birth, but what about them makes them male?
    The problem with that is it isnt actually a precise biological definition, rather a vague pop cultural definition. What defines a female is what genetics they have, which is xx or xy and what reproductive cells they produce, which is sperm not eggs. The carrying of the eggs is not what makes the bearer female.
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 09:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Needs to take biology lessons.
    ...says the person that can't tell a male from a female.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    What defines a female is what genetics they have, [...] and what reproductive cells they produce, which is sperm not eggs.
    Needs to take biology lessons.
    Were you suggesting I need to take biology lessons? Or that you need to take biology lessons? I will readily admit I meant to type eggs in that sentence, will you admit you understood the point I was making?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    What defines a female is what genetics they have, [...] and what reproductive cells they produce, which is sperm not eggs.
    Needs to take biology lessons.
    Were you suggesting I need to take biology lessons? Or that you need to take biology lessons? I will readily admit I meant to type eggs in that sentence, will you admit you understood the point I was making?
    Everyone makes typo's. I, can only speak for myself. I understood your point perfectly. *S*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Were you suggesting I need to take biology lessons? Or that you need to take biology lessons?
    This is your expression that females produce sperm, not egg cells.
    So you are going to cling to the typo. I have ALREADY noted that it was a typo and should have been typed as eggs not sperm. Now will you address the statement?

    The problem with that is it isnt actually a precise biological definition, rather a vague pop cultural definition. What defines a female is what genetics they have, which is xx or xy and what reproductive cells they produce, which is eggs not sperm. The carrying of the eggs is not what makes the bearer female.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    What defines a female is what genetics they have
    In many species sex is not defined strictly by genetics and especially by chromosomes and could even change under certain life conditions.
    Not many species, and the gender is still based on the genetics. WHY do you insist that modern biology is incorrect and your personal idea is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Not many species, and the gender is still based on the genetics.
    Sequential hermaphroditism (called dichogamy in botany) is a type of hermaphroditism that occurs in many fish, gastropods and plants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequen...ermaphroditism In this case we could talk about swinging genetics or genetically predetermined sex changes which do not fall under definition of permanently predetermined genetic sex.
    And they are SPECIFICALLY defined as being hermaphrodites. Sea horses are NOT hermaphrodites. Do you understand this yet?
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    And when they pass that point the features they have are male or female and follow the genetics of the species for male or female. Sea horses that brood the eggs are male. There is NO controversy, and bringing in as many non-related matters as you can will not change that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    There is NO controversy, and bringing in as many non-related matters as you can will not change that.
    Since adding Stanley514 to my ignore list, I have found his posts to be considerably less annoying.
    I regret ever trying to help him.
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